16 replies to this topic

[Not_Supplied]

used by all human cultures for thousands of years...provides thousands of essential nutrients...proven to have more health benefits than any supplement formula....


...food

Joking aside, what do you think of this article? I know there are a lot of people on here with in depth knowledge of nutrition who are into supplements, but is there any truth in the idea that we should just eat a good, varied diet and leave it at that?

There are obviously some things you have to watch - e.g. we're probably programmed to eat more calories and meat than we need - but surely a lot of our intuitions about food are right as well, and could help guide us to a good diet without overthinking it. Or is that just wishful thinking?

[ajnast4r]

Or is that just wishful thinking?

wishful thinking.

i do think food should be the main source of nutrients, but taking a properly formulated (read: mild potency/100-200%RDI, proper forms of nutrients) multivitamin is imo, essential to make sure you are not deficient. try using cron-o-meter to track your nutrients for a few weeks and you'll see just how difficult it is to hit 100% on every thing, every day... let alone once you take into account that cron-o-meter is not totally accurate due to the varying amounts of nutrients in food due to growing techniques/area/etc.

imo, anyone who is not taking a multivitamin/mineral, vitamin D & omega3 in some form is quite foolish.

[Not_Supplied]

I will be interested to use cron o meter once I get a decent OS. However, it strikes me that the figures it uses to tell you if you're deficient or ok must be chosen by someone based on nutritional research and there seem to be a lot of controversial topics.

e.g. there are some posts on here saying that taking a multivitamin may negate some benefits of CR. It makes me wonder if it will in fact be harmful to be slightly deficient in something for a bit if it roughly balances out in the long run. And what is the correct amount of a nutrient anyway?

BTW I apologise for my relative ignorance in these matters, but it's become important to me to figure stuff out for myself, having recently had a run in with a nutritionolamagist who prescribed mega doses of potentially harmful substances.

[ajnast4r]

I will be interested to use cron o meter once I get a decent OS. However, it strikes me that the figures it uses to tell you if you're deficient or ok must be chosen by someone based on nutritional research and there seem to be a lot of controversial topics.

e.g. there are some posts on here saying that taking a multivitamin may negate some benefits of CR. It makes me wonder if it will in fact be harmful to be slightly deficient in something for a bit if it roughly balances out in the long run. And what is the correct amount of a nutrient anyway?

BTW I apologise for my relative ignorance in these matters, but it's become important to me to figure stuff out for myself, having recently had a run in with a nutritionolamagist who prescribed mega doses of potentially harmful substances.

cron-o-meter is very simple and should run on the most basic of OS's
http://spaz.ca/cronometer/

cron-o-meter uses the DRI (dietary reference intake) which is the most modern, (real) science based goals for nutrient intake.
http://en.wikipedia....etary_Allowance

Ive never heard anyone say a multivitamin will negate the benefits of CR... what you may be thinking of is that niacinimide, a vitamin b3 analog that is popular in supplements because it does not produce flushing, has been discussed as possible sirtuin inhibitor. CR is fringe science... there is no evidence that it is effective in humans and allowing yourself to become marginally deficient in any nutrient because it MAY be beneficial to CR, which MAY not even work in humans, is foolish.

you want to make sure you hit the DRI on every nutrient every day... we are taught in school to shoot for 100-300% DRI, while staying under the TOL (tolerable upper limit).

whats a nutritionolamagist?

Edited by ajnast4r, 29 November 2008 - 06:54 PM.

[nowayout]

Ive never heard anyone say a multivitamin will negate the benefits of CR...

There was a mouse study that showed that ALA, which is in AOR Ortho Core, can negate the benefits of CR long after cessation of supplementation. That might not count, though, since ALA is not in most multivitamins.

[Not_Supplied]

Hi. Maybe the calorie restriction point was a red herring. I'm just skeptical whether it does in fact make a difference if you get all of the recommended daily amounts every day as long as you get a variety of food over a week say.

To take a simplistic example, my feeling is that fasting is good for you, or at least not bad. If you fast for a day then you're not getting any RDAs/DRIs that day, right?

Nutritionolamagist - my word for an unscrupulous or naive nutritionist promoting supplements. I understand that you're in this field, and I'm not lumping you in with them. I'm currently skeptical about the RDAs/DRIs and a lot of mainstream nutritional advice, not to mention 'orthomolecular medicine'.

e.g. recommending so many wholegrains. We obviously managed for a long time without whole grains, and developed our advanced brains without them.

Possibly there is a case for taking some supplements, but for me this article was a salutary reminder that people have managed very well and achieved long lifespans without overanalysing diet.

I hope this doesn't come across as too confrontational - it's just my writing style.

[FunkOdyssey]

Possibly there is a case for taking some supplements, but for me this article was a salutary reminder that people have managed very well and achieved long lifespans without overanalysing diet.

Our diets, and the nutritional content of individual foods both used to be much different. You can use advanced nutritional software to attempt to track your intake of various vitamins and minerals, but can you trust that data? There is SO MUCH variation in those values as they depend on many different real-world variables, soil conditions, weather conditions, organic vs. non-organic, different cultivars, etc. In my opinion, you can guesstimate that you are getting optimal nutrition with food, but you cannot KNOW unless you are supplementing with precisely measured quantities of these essential vitamins and minerals.

Supplements make more sense in many cases. Achieving optimal levels of Vitamin D without supplementation would require a degree of sun exposure that would raise your risk of skin cancer and prematurely age your skin. Absorbing Vitamin B12 is difficult -- check your blood levels. If you've made no special effort in this regard, and especially if you don't consume many animal products, expect a dissapointing value in the lower end of the range. Sublingual lozenges are the answer in this case. Food sources of the powerful anti-glycation nutrients benfotiamine and pyridoxamine? No, forget about it. And all of those health-promoting polyphenols that can be obtained from foods but may be prohibitively expensive or require excessive sugar intake. Eating fish to obtain your omega-3's? That can hardly be considered healthful with the mercury laden state of our oceans -- supplemental fish oil from a reputable vendor that tests for mercury and other contaminants is much safer. And on, and on, and on.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 30 November 2008 - 05:34 PM.

[kismet]

Ive never heard anyone say a multivitamin will negate the benefits of CR...

There was a mouse study that showed that ALA, which is in AOR Ortho Core, can negate the benefits of CR long after cessation of supplementation. That might not count, though, since ALA is not in most multivitamins.

Not at the amounts that are commonly supplemented with.

[ajnast4r]

Possibly there is a case for taking some supplements, but for me this article was a salutary reminder that people have managed very well and achieved long lifespans without overanalysing diet.

Our diets, and the nutritional content of individual foods both used to be much different. You can use advanced nutritional software to attempt to track your intake of various vitamins and minerals, but can you trust that data? There is SO MUCH variation in those values as they depend on many different real-world variables, soil conditions, weather conditions, organic vs. non-organic, different cultivars, etc. In my opinion, you can guesstimate that you are getting optimal nutrition with food, but you cannot KNOW unless you are supplementing with precisely measured quantities of these essential vitamins and minerals.

Supplements make more sense in many cases. Achieving optimal levels of Vitamin D without supplementation would require a degree of sun exposure that would raise your risk of skin cancer and prematurely age your skin. Absorbing Vitamin B12 is difficult -- check your blood levels. If you've made no special effort in this regard, and especially if you don't consume many animal products, expect a dissapointing value in the lower end of the range. Sublingual lozenges are the answer in this case. Food sources of the powerful anti-glycation nutrients benfotiamine and pyridoxamine? No, forget about it. And all of those health-promoting polyphenols that can be obtained from foods but may be prohibitively expensive or require excessive sugar intake. Eating fish to obtain your omega-3's? That can hardly be considered healthful with the mercury laden state of our oceans -- supplemental fish oil from a reputable vendor that tests for mercury and other contaminants is much safer. And on, and on, and on.

someone pay this man

[nowayout]

Ive never heard anyone say a multivitamin will negate the benefits of CR...

There was a mouse study that showed that ALA, which is in AOR Ortho Core, can negate the benefits of CR long after cessation of supplementation. That might not count, though, since ALA is not in most multivitamins.

Not at the amounts that are commonly supplemented with.

Metabolically adjusted, the equivalent human dosage would be roughly 9 g per day of racemic ALA (which was used in the study). If you supplement with R-ALA instead, it is possible that you reach this level of bioactivity with 4.5 g. I don't know what the average is for ALA supplementation, but I am sure there are individuals here who approach or exceed this. But the Merry-Kirk-Goynes study don't show any dose-ranging study, so for all we know the deleterious side effect could start at 0.5 g...

Edited by andre, 30 November 2008 - 07:44 PM.

[Shepard]

Hot off the press:

J Altern Complement Med. 2008 Nov 25. [Epub ahead of print]
Related Articles, Links
Click here to read
Vitamin C: Is Supplementation Necessary for Optimal Health?

Deruelle F, Baron B.

Laboratoire d'Etudes de la Motricité Humaine, Université de Lille 2, Faculté des Sciences du Sport et de l'Education Physique, Ronchin, France.

Abstract Background: Consumption of vitamin C is essential for life in humans because the body does not synthesize it. Numerous studies have demonstrated that supplementation with vitamin C enhances the immune system, avoids DNA damage, and significantly decreases the risk of a wide range of pathologies, such as cancers, and degenerative and chronic diseases. Moreover, it has been demonstrated that modern crop production, transport, and food storage severely impair the quality of food and provoke a loss in micronutrients, such as vitamin C. Objectives: In this paper, we report that the Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) in vitamin C is lower than the bodily needs. In fact, it does not seem to ensure true health protection and it appears difficult to reach an effective dose of vitamin C only through food consumption. Furthermore, the literature shows that vitamin C intake higher than the RDA is safe. Therefore, in order to achieve optimal health and avoid a number of diseases, we suggest that, in the present situation, vitamin C supplementation is required. Conclusions: According to the current literature, we would like to emphasize that to ensure an optimal allowance of vitamin C, we advise 1 g daily intake of vitamin C supplementation, accompanied by a diet rich in fruits and vegetables.

[Heliotrope]

haha Food is not a "supplement" technically. It's a requirement, a necessity, a substance for sustainance.

So Of Course! Of course all the long-lived ancient individuals all had a common trait: they ate food. some took supplements, some didn't.

[DukeNukem]

Hot off the press:

J Altern Complement Med. 2008 Nov 25. [Epub ahead of print]
Related Articles, Links
Click here to read
Vitamin C: Is Supplementation Necessary for Optimal Health?

Deruelle F, Baron B.

Laboratoire d'Etudes de la Motricité Humaine, Université de Lille 2, Faculté des Sciences du Sport et de l'Education Physique, Ronchin, France.

Abstract Background: Consumption of vitamin C is essential for life in humans because the body does not synthesize it. Numerous studies have demonstrated that supplementation with vitamin C enhances the immune system, avoids DNA damage, and significantly decreases the risk of a wide range of pathologies, such as cancers, and degenerative and chronic diseases. Moreover, it has been demonstrated that modern crop production, transport, and food storage severely impair the quality of food and provoke a loss in micronutrients, such as vitamin C. Objectives: In this paper, we report that the Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) in vitamin C is lower than the bodily needs. In fact, it does not seem to ensure true health protection and it appears difficult to reach an effective dose of vitamin C only through food consumption. Furthermore, the literature shows that vitamin C intake higher than the RDA is safe. Therefore, in order to achieve optimal health and avoid a number of diseases, we suggest that, in the present situation, vitamin C supplementation is required. Conclusions: According to the current literature, we would like to emphasize that to ensure an optimal allowance of vitamin C, we advise 1 g daily intake of vitamin C supplementation, accompanied by a diet rich in fruits and vegetables.

In Good Calorie, Bad Calorie, the author references a study that indicates Vit C might be unnecessary if a person is on a super low-carb diet. For example, Eskimos. The more carbs a person eats, the more necessary Vit C. (That said, I still take ~4 grams daily (spaced out), just in case.) Plus, Pycnogenol appears to be a stand-in for Vit C as far as preventing vascular degradation, and I take 300mg daily (spaced out).

BTW, link to study: http://www.lieberton...9/acm.2008.0165

Edited by DukeNukem, 01 December 2008 - 02:20 AM.

[Shepard]

In Good Calorie, Bad Calorie, the author references a study that indicates Vit C might be unnecessary if a person is on a super low-carb diet. For example, Eskimos. The more carbs a person eats, the more necessary Vit C. (That said, I still take ~4 grams daily (spaced out), just in case.) Plus, Pycnogenol appears to be a stand-in for Vit C as far as preventing vascular degradation, and I take 300mg daily (spaced out).

I remember Taubes theorizing about this, but I don't remember any specific study that was cited other than general observations. I don't have my copy with me, so I can't recheck it and look. His argument was that glucose and ascorbate compete for uptake. As far as I know, the majority of dehydroascorbic acid is dependent on GLUT1 for transport, and hyperglycemic conditions lead to lower DHA levels, and insulin obviously increases uptake. While I'm not fully up-to-date on my ascorbate metabolism, his argument seems to have some merit.

[DukeNukem]

In Good Calorie, Bad Calorie, the author references a study that indicates Vit C might be unnecessary if a person is on a super low-carb diet. For example, Eskimos. The more carbs a person eats, the more necessary Vit C. (That said, I still take ~4 grams daily (spaced out), just in case.) Plus, Pycnogenol appears to be a stand-in for Vit C as far as preventing vascular degradation, and I take 300mg daily (spaced out).

I remember Taubes theorizing about this, but I don't remember any specific study that was cited other than general observations. I don't have my copy with me, so I can't recheck it and look. His argument was that glucose and ascorbate compete for uptake. As far as I know, the majority of dehydroascorbic acid is dependent on GLUT1 for transport, and hyperglycemic conditions lead to lower DHA levels, and insulin obviously increases uptake. While I'm not fully up-to-date on my ascorbate metabolism, his argument seems to have some merit.

I think you're right, it was only a hypothesis he thew out. But, I'm pretty sure he based it on a study that hinted strongly at this. Don't have my copy handy, either -- on loan.

[Not_Supplied]

Thanks, you've definitely given me food for thought. But there's so much conflicting stuff out there; the next study might come along and say that vitamin C gives you arse cancer. And not all supplements are as benign as vit C.

I'll have another look into supplements, but I still question if it is in fact necessary to have 'optimum' nutrition every day whatever that means.

I also think theres things you can do to improve the quality of your food - growing wild varieties of leaves, growing sprouts etc.

[Not_Supplied]

For the record, I've been doing more research and yeh seems like a very good idea to take a multivitamin and oil. The article is a bit reactionary and wishful thinking. Sorry if I was being a dick, I was getting a bit too involved in my own trains of thought there. My only defense is that for someone who would rather find out what's healthy and then forget about it, it's rather frustrating that there are no easy answers around for the question of 'what should we eat'. I can see that it's going to have to be an ongoing process of learning and changes.