• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo

Enamel eroded - dentin visible - FLUORIDE, Marshall protocol etc


  • Please log in to reply
13 replies to this topic

#1 poser

  • Guest, F@H
  • 116 posts
  • 4

Posted 28 November 2008 - 11:45 PM


THE STORY:

I am upset now. My being more than a bit mad has now OFFICIALLY taken a toll on my PHYSICAL health (tonight I had chewed a xylitol gum that was black in color and when I was brushing my teeth, TWO ENAMEL 'HOLES' IN MY FRONT TEETH HAD BLACK ON THEM - I had had sensitivity on them before and could see that there was significant erosion but now it was clear that I wasn't in Kansas anymore; that was DENTIN).

My jackass stunts left a mark on this forum as well. I actually posted recommending people to HOLD SELEGILINE IN THEIR MOUTHS FOR MINUTES (why? TO SAVE SOME FUCKING MONEY). Yeah, not smart. I did this for somewhere between 3-6 months. Every day, like 2 or more tablets a day.

The other things I've done is not use a fluoride toothpaste for a long time, maybe a year or so. When I read about this I got the feeling that this is not a complete fringe theory. Even on forums not focused on health, it is common to see people talk about the evil fluoride; maybe even here. I read about it from online short version of Good Teeth from birth to death by Gerard F. Judd. He advocates using just soap to clean teeth. While in my case there were other factors involved, I am almost certain that LACK OF FLUORIDE had a detrimental effect on MY teeth.

I've had bruxism since childhood. Interesting thing is, that I didn't have clear dental erosion until like 3 years ago. Sometime (relatively) after that I began using a cheap mouth guard nightly. LUCKILY, it seems that the erosion on the parts of my lower teeth that hit the upper ones has stopped. And there's no sensitivity. One shocking thing about this is that my dentists have NEVER said anything special about this - it's like, 'oh make sure you don't drink too much acidic juice and use xylitol gum'. WTF, are they that money hungry, 'just doing their job' or WTF didn't they put me up against the wall to find out what am I doing.

And the last thing I've done, which is in a way both embarrassing and yet I'm still in the dark to what exactly it's part has been, but I have a confession to make. I tried Marshall protocol for low energy/depression. That means, in context, that I had zero vitamin D supplementary or dietary intake for about a year, year and a half. On top of that, I've been a vegan/vegetarian for 7 years who never knew that I had to get a certain amount of essential aminos from my diet on pretty much every meal (yeah, I've read one scientific article about it and that was my conclusion - the author said that if you ate the missing aminos 3 hours after, that would be sufficient but I don't eat that often usually). I still don't know what's the truth about the Marshall protocol (the science is too complex for me to know what might be the truth) but right now I just think it's best to think it's another 'fluoride is evil' scare and do what everybody else is doing.

WHY??:

Why didn't I get dental erosion before i was way over 20? Was it leaving meat etc. and not researching my diet enough? If it was that, is it possible that the effects would have come only after a couple of years?

WHAT NEXT:

I'm calling the government/public dentist next Monday and ask if a small patch can be made to cover the exposed dentin. I have started using NovaMin remineralizing toothpaste and just today I bought amine fluoride toothpaste, that's supposed to be better than standard fluoride. I haven't used an electric tooth brush, maybe that could help some anyone know? (as in has it been researched?) I haven't flossed until maybe a year ago until I found one's with the plastic handle. Maybe that reveals my personality but hey, you're all just clean freaks yourself ; ) Anyway, the sides of the teeth was a problem only for a limited time in the past.

I remember reading about a Japanese company that was well on it's way into developing artificial enamel but I don't think it has come out yet.

Anything else that would be essential? My gums are relatively healthy (compared to my teeth) but bleed every other night and have receded on one so badly that I'm worried (the fucking dentist didn't say anything on that either). I've read irrigation of gum pockets with some sort of special fluid (if I remember right) might help with that, have you heard of this? (I read about this on mizar5.com)

THANKS FOR READING. If you have nothing to say, except call me an idiot, I don't care. That's what I've been, that's 'a no-brainer'.
To finish this short story, 'Kids, don't try this at home'. I guess I now should feel more empathetic towards those that take 5 less or more different drugs at the same time and are surprised when the shit starts to hit the fan...

#2 meatwad

  • Guest
  • 196 posts
  • 0

Posted 29 November 2008 - 12:09 AM

The other things I've done is not use a fluoride toothpaste for a long time, maybe a year or so. When I read about this I got the feeling that this is not a complete fringe theory. Even on forums not focused on health, it is common to see people talk about the evil fluoride; maybe even here.


I get a headache from flouride pills, fluoride toothpaste gives me a fuzzy/nasty feeling to my head.

Fluoridation of water is evil, medicating people without their consent is definately poor practice.

"lack of fluoride" is not the cause of your tooth problems. Did people all lose their teeth before the addition of fluoride to drinking water or teeth cleaning products?
  • Ill informed x 1

#3 Ben

  • Guest
  • 2,006 posts
  • -2
  • Location:South East

Posted 29 November 2008 - 01:09 AM

The other things I've done is not use a fluoride toothpaste for a long time, maybe a year or so. When I read about this I got the feeling that this is not a complete fringe theory. Even on forums not focused on health, it is common to see people talk about the evil fluoride; maybe even here.


I get a headache from flouride pills, fluoride toothpaste gives me a fuzzy/nasty feeling to my head.

Fluoridation of water is evil, medicating people without their consent is definately poor practice.

"lack of fluoride" is not the cause of your tooth problems. Did people all lose their teeth before the addition of fluoride to drinking water or teeth cleaning products?


Flouride in toothpaste is fine 'meatwad', I'm sure it's not giving you that headache. If it is, perhaps you are swallowing too much of the paste. Brushin' teef is hard!

To the O.P.: I'm sorry; I can't really comment on your dental problem as I've not really much knowledge in that regard. I can however comment on your previous practice of holding selegiline in your mouth and can tell you that from what I've read its a good way of increasing absorption and preventing its breakdown in the stomach into its various metabolites. Something which is desirably avoided.

sponsored ad

  • Advert

#4 ajnast4r

  • Guest, F@H
  • 3,925 posts
  • 148
  • Location:USA
  • NO

Posted 29 November 2008 - 05:59 AM

i did the whole natural dental care thing and all it got me was more cavities.... i have holes in my dentin too, partly due to gum recession from braces. my dentist told me that as long as i brushed/flosses regularly and used a fluoride rinse they wouldn't get worse. i would suggest you get a dental scaling done, which removes all the bacterial pockets under the gum... its simple and painless. also look into getting a bonding done over the exposed dentin.

right now my dental care regimen looks like this:

am:
floss
tongue scraper
brush w/ colgate total
rinse w/ act restore



pm:
floss
tongue scraper
brush with arm & hammer enamel care

"lack of fluoride" is not the cause of your tooth problems. Did people all lose their teeth before the addition of fluoride to drinking water or teeth cleaning products?


correct. but the addition of fluoride WILL reduce your tooth problems... and fluoridated water has been shown without a doubt to be safe & lessen the occurrence of cavities. EVERYONE should be using a fluoride toothpaste/rinse. the systemic absorption from fluoridated toothpaste/mouthwash is nill.

Edited by ajnast4r, 29 November 2008 - 06:04 AM.


#5 zorba990

  • Guest
  • 1,547 posts
  • 272

Posted 29 November 2008 - 07:06 AM

I Gave myself a similar problem with a workout drink not too long ago.
An amino mixture I was taking must have been too acid and sipping
it during workouts as well as taking it before eroded enamel to
the point where I could see through the bottom half of my
front two teeth. I was rather upset since I never drink soda or any other
acid drinks.

I was able to resolve the issue by holding calcium
phosphorous pills in my mouth, letting them dissolve then smearing
the mixture on my teeth before sleep. It took about 3 months to
go away. The ones I used are called Prelief. I was actually looking for
a simple calcium phosphorous rinse but I think these are better because
you can melt them in your mouth and it forms a sticky mixture which
you can then smear over the problem teeth. It might stay on a bit
longer. No guarantee it will work for you but it might be worth a try.

#6 niner

  • Guest
  • 16,276 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 29 November 2008 - 07:37 AM

Poser, if it's any consolation, I doubt that the selegiline had much to do with the problem. Selegiline is a weak base in its native form, but you probably were using the hydrochloride salt, so that would be a weak acid. A lot weaker than Coca Cola, for example. The lack of vitamin D and fluoride probably had a lot more to do with the erosion. It almost surely started with the bruxism. Once the enamel is worn through, things go to hell in a hurry. Vitamin D is critical in calcium metabolism. You probably ought to start supplementing 2000 IU/day in a gelcap formulation. You might consider getting checked for osteopenia using a Dexa Scan. Your bones may have dissolved for some of the same reasons your teeth did. It's possible that a new dentist might be in order. Your gums sound like they are in pretty bad shape. Your dentist hasn't been on your case about that? He did the right thing getting you into a mouth guard (or did you do that yourself?) but all in all it sounds like you could have been getting better care. An electric toothbrush would very likely help you with gum health. You should watch it on the soft spots, though, as it may be too abrasive for the areas where the enamel is worn. There are lots of ways that dentists can restore teeth. Unfortunately they tend to be expensive. If the spots are small and on flat surfaces, a simple filling might do it. If the wear is on the biting surface/edges, it will be harder.

There is a lot of bad medical advice on the Internet. Topical fluoride is good for teeth. Consuming tons of it, either by drinking a lot of fluoridated water or by drinking a lot of tea (even Snapple) can be bad if you get enough. Consuming reasonable amounts of water or tea are unlikely to cause a problem. The Marshall protocol is just nuts. Vitamin D is hugely important, and most people aren't getting enough. If you're Vegan for religious reasons, that's cool, but if you're doing it purely for health reasons... I'd give it up. It's not too hard to be healthy as a vegetarian if you eat dairy and eggs, but otherwise it's tough.
  • Agree x 1

#7 FunkOdyssey

  • Guest
  • 3,443 posts
  • 165
  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 29 November 2008 - 05:35 PM

There is a lot of bad medical advice on the Internet. Topical fluoride is good for teeth. Consuming tons of it, either by drinking a lot of fluoridated water or by drinking a lot of tea (even Snapple) can be bad if you get enough. Consuming reasonable amounts of water or tea are unlikely to cause a problem. The Marshall protocol is just nuts. Vitamin D is hugely important, and most people aren't getting enough. If you're Vegan for religious reasons, that's cool, but if you're doing it purely for health reasons... I'd give it up. It's not too hard to be healthy as a vegetarian if you eat dairy and eggs, but otherwise it's tough.


+1. Topical fluoride is very effective at hardening enamel -- apply to teeth, do not swallow. Systemically, fluoride is toxic, so do not eat or drink it. Marshall Protocol is nuts with the possible exception of sarcoidosis patients or someone with proven vitamin D dysregulation (abnormally high 1,25OHD as defined by the real world, not Marshall, that is unresponsive to increased calcium intake). Definitely get your vitamin D levels straightened out with supplementation under a doctor's supervision (read: frequent testing of blood levels until optimal levels are reached and maintained).

There is still hope for your teeth. There exists a thing in the dental world called MI Paste which has the ability to re-mineralize teeth when used correctly. Ask your dentist about it or see if you can find a source for it. If you use it correctly, in combination with fluoride toothpaste and correcting your Vit D levels and intake of bone-building nutrients, you have an excellent chance of repairing at least some of the damage you have caused. Try to avoid sugars and acidic beverages, for at least the duration of this recovery period.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 29 November 2008 - 05:41 PM.


#8 meatwad

  • Guest
  • 196 posts
  • 0

Posted 29 November 2008 - 07:24 PM

The other things I've done is not use a fluoride toothpaste for a long time, maybe a year or so. When I read about this I got the feeling that this is not a complete fringe theory. Even on forums not focused on health, it is common to see people talk about the evil fluoride; maybe even here.


I get a headache from flouride pills, fluoride toothpaste gives me a fuzzy/nasty feeling to my head.

Fluoridation of water is evil, medicating people without their consent is definately poor practice.

"lack of fluoride" is not the cause of your tooth problems. Did people all lose their teeth before the addition of fluoride to drinking water or teeth cleaning products?


Flouride in toothpaste is fine 'meatwad', I'm sure it's not giving you that headache. If it is, perhaps you are swallowing too much of the paste. Brushin' teef is hard!


Maybe Its the Pavlovian response, but when I have to use flourided toothpaste (work or forgot my own) I try to use it as fast as possible. If I allow it to sit around in my mouth in any quantity I get an appreciable headache. If I quickly rinse and spit and rinse a few more times I still feel the same headiness but at a different strength.

I believe it very quickly sublingually transfers in and parties inside my skull. Luckily the headache seems to go away within 90 minutes every time.

#9 niner

  • Guest
  • 16,276 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 30 November 2008 - 01:41 AM

Maybe Its the Pavlovian response, but when I have to use flourided toothpaste (work or forgot my own) I try to use it as fast as possible. If I allow it to sit around in my mouth in any quantity I get an appreciable headache. If I quickly rinse and spit and rinse a few more times I still feel the same headiness but at a different strength.

I believe it very quickly sublingually transfers in and parties inside my skull. Luckily the headache seems to go away within 90 minutes every time.

The way to know if this is a real effect is to get two kinds of toothpaste, one with fluoride and one without. It would be best if they looked and tasted identical, but as long as you have no idea which is which, it should work. Have someone prepare two samples, labeled "A" and "B". Try them both and see what happens. Run the experiment a couple times. Try it with various kinds of toothpaste in an attempt to rule out confounding effects of other ingredients. My suspicion is that if you are getting a real effect from your toothpaste, it's probably not the fluoride but rather something else. If a person truly believes that they are ingesting a toxin, that could have some pretty powerful psychological effects.

#10 gattaca

  • Guest
  • 59 posts
  • 0

Posted 30 November 2008 - 10:38 PM

Did people all lose their teeth before the addition of fluoride to drinking water or teeth cleaning products?


Yes. A common gambling game in ancient Greece was "guess how many teeth I have left." No joke. Without proper maintenence and absent a special component to the diet, people "in the wild" tend to start losing their choppers around age 20.
  • Agree x 1

#11 eternaltraveler

  • Guest, Guardian
  • 6,471 posts
  • 155
  • Location:Silicon Valley, CA

Posted 30 November 2008 - 11:40 PM

Did people all lose their teeth before the addition of fluoride to drinking water or teeth cleaning products?


yes.

even people from my parent's generation had a hell of a lot more cavities before fluoride was as commonly used. Don't drink it, or swallow your toothpaste.
  • Agree x 1

#12 quarter

  • Guest
  • 132 posts
  • -1

Posted 01 December 2008 - 01:02 PM

Did people all lose their teeth before the addition of fluoride to drinking water or teeth cleaning products?


Dental health, in general, in Northern Ireland is significantly worse than in the Republic of Ireland, this despite the availability of free dental health care in the North but expensive dental health care in the Republic, with marked differences in comparable towns only a few miles apart but either side of the boarder. It is widely agreed that the most important contributory factor to the better levels of oral health in the Republic of Ireland as compared to Northern Ireland is the fluoridation of public water supplies in the Republic.

Despite this, on a personal level I am pleased my water is not fluoridated (I live in Northern Ireland). I use a fluoride toothpaste and mouthwash, and my teeth are in good health. Having said that, it appears that fluoride in the water supply does provide benefits for those who otherwise take less care with their oral hygiene.

#13 krillin

  • Guest
  • 1,516 posts
  • 59
  • Location:USA

Posted 22 March 2009 - 02:24 AM

Did people all lose their teeth before the addition of fluoride to drinking water or teeth cleaning products?

WWII era US Army standards from p.9 of An Army at Dawn.

A conscript had to stand at least five feet tall and weigh 105 pounds; possess twelve or more of his natural thirty-two teeth; and be free of flat feet, venereal disease, and hernias. More than forty of every hundred men were rejected, a grim testament to the toll taken on the nation's health by the Great Depression.



#14 zorba990

  • Guest
  • 1,547 posts
  • 272

Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:10 PM

I Gave myself a similar problem with a workout drink not too long ago.
An amino mixture I was taking must have been too acid and sipping
it during workouts as well as taking it before eroded enamel to
the point where I could see through the bottom half of my
front two teeth. I was rather upset since I never drink soda or any other
acid drinks.

I was able to resolve the issue by holding calcium
phosphorous pills in my mouth, letting them dissolve then smearing
the mixture on my teeth before sleep. It took about 3 months to
go away. The ones I used are called Prelief. I was actually looking for
a simple calcium phosphorous rinse but I think these are better because
you can melt them in your mouth and it forms a sticky mixture which
you can then smear over the problem teeth. It might stay on a bit
longer. No guarantee it will work for you but it might be worth a try.


Update...here is some more info about Calcium Glycerophosphate:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15509082




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users