15 replies to this topic

[busybeaver]

Hi all, have been on here before for my own problems and seeking solutions. Now the spotlight has faded from me and turned to my 10 yo son who we have just had diagnosed with ADD. He is high functioning visually, something like a 120 on the test he was given and somewhere at a 70 or 80 in verbal recognition/comprehension (don't quote me verbatim...alot was being thrown out there that I don't truly recall to the 't').

Anyhue, he fits the mold with tics like humming or singing constantly (which can be a drone for a parent or teacher), fidgeting with pencils etc, lack of concentration (although very high functioning with math and visual problems - words, comprehension and the like are like a forest full of dragons to him!), temporary stints of high anxiety he gets flashes of warmth or pains in his chest...

He is a good kid and well mannered and respectable, he just needs that part of his brain settled down or turned up to level it out so he is not so tweaked at times. The doc explained that his dopamine levels could be off not letting the right side of the brain and the left side 'handshake' with one another so as to have a firm grasp on certain situations. He has presented my wife and I with various ideas of treatment. The first of course is medication, which my wife and I both are against because of side effects and the possible long term effects that could arise. Right now we are in the process of gathering information on our own to learn what options are out there other than the medication route to treat him or at least to help him manage and cope with the things he is not aware of as being a problem.

I come here to get any info which those of you may have gathered through experience or education which may help us in getting a plan together to help our son as well as us and his educators to maybe make his world more forgiving with his 'problem'.

I have read here and there of some of the supplements for ADD such as DMAE, Tyro, EPA/DHA, etc, I just wonder what the dosages are for a 10 yo boy who is less than 60 pounds (yeah he's a little guy) and or any of the side effects if any in which to start him out with?

I would be glad to hear any and all possibilities and welcome any discussion which we may encounter to perhaps do more than help my son, but perhaps more folks out there who are in the same predicament.

Thanks in advance,

BB

[Brainbox]

Did you think about eliminating certain allergens and chemicals from food as a first line of defence? I'm not able to give any detailed feedback, but my impression is that this could be a good start. Fish (or fish oil supplementation) could also be beneficial. Especially for a 10 yr old kid, supplementation with stuff like DMAE or Tyrosine would not be my first approach, although more preferable as compared to for instance adderal. If you know what you're doing, that is...

I'm thinking of food being a possible root cause because a while back I did read some articles about chemicals in sweets that did have a bad influence on kids that are sensitive to it. And these chemicals are everywhere, not only in sweets, although in these kind of "luxury" products the concentration might be relatively high.

Edit: Btw., through the LEF site (www.lef.org) you can obtain a list of open-minded healthcare specialists from the US or EU, that should be of use.

Edited by Brainbox, 10 December 2008 - 12:03 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

temporary stints of high anxiety he gets flashes of warmth or pains in his chest...

This was diagnosed as ADD or related to ADD? Has he had this particular symptom evaluated by a good doctor? Because ADD symptoms can show up in the context of another illness and not necessarily represent a distinct disorder. I was diagnosed with ADD and given Ritalin when I actually had Lyme (most of my symptoms up to that point were basic ADD, with some extra fatigue and other minor complaints), and the ritalin nearly killed me (seriously).

I think it can be very dangerous to dismiss chest pain as anxiety without a thorough evaluation.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 10 December 2008 - 03:05 PM.

[busybeaver]

Guys thanks for your posts.

Brainbox, thanks I will check out the site, never heard of it until now. I do most of the food shopping and cooking here at home. Yes, he does have a sweet tooth, but we try and limit it as best as we can. Most of what I try to buy is organic in nature, however some of it IS expensive and we have to judge whether it is warranted - need vs want...etc. We really haven't followed 'Western' medicine for the most part - we go to a holistic center in which they do vial tests based upon touch and analyzing what the mind and body are 'giving' off. Not sure fully how it works, but we know it does as it has worked for us for some time. We have tried giving him fish oil caps, but he is afraid of choking on them, and opening them up and have him suck them out kinda kills the point of taking it, but also he doesn't like tasting it either - we have to find something that he will not know he is taking the oil and he won't have a fear about taking. It is frustrating to say the least!

Funk, our son was dxd back when he was 5 by a licensed doctor who ran the same gamut of testing as the present doc (wisc IV, etc), and he was dxd back then with a learning disability as part of a spectrum disorder (almost like a slight form of autism - but not). As with what I've said to Brainbox, with the holistic meds our 'doc' can know what issues are running around in our little guy with testing as well as providing him with 'balancing' on their chi machine. I know it sounds funny, but we can't complain in the least as to this stuff working. His chest pains are pretty much predictable...when we go to movie theaters, sometimes in the car...and it's not just a pain, it's a hot flash, or stomach cramp, nervous feelings and the like.

All this is kinda scary stuff as we do the best we can, but sometimes our best isn't good enough and as a parent that can be frustrating not knowing what to do if anything at all! You can't take a pill for it (well you could, but we have all heard and seen what happens to 'Alex/Alice' after they take their pills), you can try to regulate the situation - turning down the heat in the car, moving to a better lit place, massage therapy...but these are all temporary and external. We have no way of tapping into his mind and fixing the things that are wrong until we can do it without harm.

Sorry, I'm prattling on. I will check out the website BB, as well as do more research on fishoil for kids...hopefully we can find something that works for him.

Busybeaver

[FunkOdyssey]

We really haven't followed 'Western' medicine for the most part - we go to a holistic center in which they do vial tests based upon touch and analyzing what the mind and body are 'giving' off.

One thing that western medicine is very proficient with is laboratory testing. Has he had any basic blood tests performed? Complete blood count, chemistry, metabolic profile, that sort of thing? If not you should strongly consider it, as these are important OBJECTIVE benchmarks of health that do not rely on mystic forces.

[tham]

http://www.fedupwith...ts/FactADHD.htm

http://www.fedupwith...s/Factheart.htm

[stephen_b]

Here are a couple of interventions to consider:

1) 120 mg lithium orotate/day, assuming that the a child is over 60 pounds. Contains about 5 mg elemental lithium. Results take about 7 days to notice. I wouldn't go over 120 mg, but less (ie 60 mg) might work as well.
2) low dose modafinil (25 mg before school and 25 mg at lunch, weekdays only). This is a fairly low dose, as studies on children with ADHD have used 200 mg.

StephenB

Edited by stephen_b, 11 December 2008 - 12:42 AM.

[spacetime]

Hesitant to use pharmaceuticals but supplements are fine? I just never understood the logic there. It's okay to use one chemical, because it's "natural" but let's avoid the evil manufactured ones. But that's a debate for another time. Perhaps alterations in diet will be sufficient. There are a few texts that allow you to determine if have imbalance, excess dopamien or serotonin and subsequent things to avoid. Could never commit to it myself due to other interests and goals at the time.

I also exhibited ADD tendancies as a child but my parents enforced self discipline and taught me various study and organizational skills and it worked fine. Tests later in life pointed to ADD and of course they recommended drug treatment which I believe is completely unnecessary. I feel these tests are inherently flawed as most people will lean towards a specific form and thus be "deficient" or "below average" at the others. And I love how my nephew is a severe case of ADHD with poor long term memory. Yet he can play video games all day long or recite me lines from a movie he watched once 3 years ago. If there were really a "disease" then he shouldn't be able to concentrate and recall at all. Rather it's just that he lacks self discipline and cannot focus on matters that aren't of interest to him. Oh, and please don't attack me for my seeming calousness as I have been diagnosed with acute Aspergers but really I'm just a typical old fashioned a-hole.

[Jacovis]

I was diagnosed with ADD and given Ritalin when I actually had Lyme (most of my symptoms up to that point were basic ADD, with some extra fatigue and other minor complaints), and the ritalin nearly killed me (seriously).

Hey Funk can you please expand how the Ritalin 'nearly killed' you? What would you recommend to minimise the chances of such problems happening for other people?

One thing that western medicine is very proficient with is laboratory testing. Has he had any basic blood tests performed? Complete blood count, chemistry, metabolic profile, that sort of thing? If not you should strongly consider it, as these are important OBJECTIVE benchmarks of health that do not rely on mystic forces.

Yes if I had a kid with suspected ADHD before putting drugs and supplements into him/her, I would get thorough blood work and sleep studies done. The more money I had the more tests I would get. There are many conditions which could lead to similar symptoms as ADHD such as Lead poisoning, Iron deficiency (see http://www.imminst.o...howtopic=19955), thyroid abnormalities, and sleep apnea (see below for examples). Even if there is not a complete resolution of the ADHD symptoms by treating the secondary problem (for example Sleep apnea), you are still likely to get some benefits for the kid's health and functioning. They will know they have that problem (often for the rest of their lives) and hopefully keep getting treated for it...


1: Thyroid. 1997 Jun;7(3):389-93.Links
Behavioral effects of liothyronine (L-T3) in children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in the presence and absence of resistance to thyroid hormone.
Weiss RE, Stein MA, Refetoff S.
Department of Medicine, The University of Chicago, IL 60637, USA.

Evidence that the thyroid may play a role in the pathogenesis of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) comes from observations that 48% to 73% of children with the syndrome of resistance to thyroid hormone (RTH) have ADHD. Casual observations in subjects with RTH have suggested that treatment with thyroid hormone may improve the symptoms of ADHD. The aim of this study was to determine whether thyroid hormone has a beneficial effect on the behavior of children with RTH. A prospective, randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled, cross-over study was conducted to evaluate the effect of the rapid acting thyroid hormone, liothyronine (L-T3), on the behavior of 8 children with ADHD + RTH, and 9 children with ADHD and normal thyroid function (ADHD Only). Parent and teacher ratings of hyperactivity (Conners scale) and a computerized continuous performance test (CPT) were used as objective measures of hyperactivity, attention and impulsivity. L-T3 had no effect on Conners Hyperactivity Index in 7 of 9 children with ADHD Only; it caused improvement and deterioration in 1 subject each. In contrast, the rating in 5 of 8 subjects with ADHD + RTH showed improvement, whereas 3 of 8 subjects remained unchanged. L-T3 was associated with increased commission errors in 5 of 8 children with ADHD Only and decreased commission errors in 4 of 7 with ADHD + RTH. In children with RTH and ADHD, particularly those that exhibit hyperactivity, L-T3 in supraphysiological doses may be beneficial in reducing hyperactivity and impulsivity. In the majority of children with ADHD who do not have RTH, L-T3 treatment has no effect or may be detrimental.

PMID: 9226208 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


1: Sleep Med. 2007 Jan;8(1):18-30. Epub 2006 Dec 6. Links
Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder with obstructive sleep apnea: a treatment outcome study.
Huang YS, Guilleminault C, Li HY, Yang CM, Wu YY, Chen NH.
Department of Child Psychiatry, Chang Gung Memorial University Hospital, Tao-Yuan, Taipei, Taiwan.

BACKGROUND: Children diagnosed with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), based on Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth edition (DSM-IV) criteria, may also have obstructive sleep apnea (OSA), but it is unclear whether treating OSA has similar results as methylphenidate (MPH), a commonly used treatment for ADHD. METHODS: This study enrolled 66 school-age children, referred for and diagnosed with ADHD, and 20 healthy controls. Polysomnography (PSG) performed after ADHD diagnosis showed the presence of mild OSA. After otolaryngological evaluation, parents and referring physicians of the children could select treatment of ADHD with MPH, treatment of OSA with adenotonsillectomy or no treatment. Systematic follow-up was performed six months after initiation of treatment, or diagnosis if no treatment. All children had pre- and post-clinical interviews; pediatric, neurologic, psychiatric and neurocognitive evaluation; PSG; ADHD rating scale, child behavior checklist (CBCL) filled out by parents and teacher; test of variables of attention (TOVA); and the quality of life in children with obstructive sleep disorder questionnaire (OSA-18). RESULTS: ADHD children had an apnea-hypopnea index (AHI)>1<5 event/hour; 27 were treated with MPH, 25 had adenotonsillectomy, and 14 had no treatment. The surgical and MPH groups improved more than the non-treatment group. When comparing MPH to post-surgery, the PSG and questionnaire sleep variables, some daytime symptoms (including attention span) and TOVA subscales (impulse control, response time and total ADHD score) improved more in the surgical group than the MPH group. The surgical group had an ADHD total score of 21.16+/-7.13 on the ADHD rating scale (ADHD-RS) post-surgery compared to 31.52+/-7.01 pre-surgery (p=0.0001), and the inattention and hyperactivity subscales were also significantly lower (p=0.0001). Finally, the results were significantly different between surgically and MPH-treated groups (ADHD-RS p=0.007). The surgical group also had a TOVA ADHD score lower than -1.8 and close to those obtained in normal controls. CONCLUSION: A low AHI score of >1 considered abnormal is detrimental to children with ADHD. Recognition and surgical treatment of underlying mild sleep-disordered breathing (SDB) in children with ADHD may prevent unnecessary long-term MPH usage and the potential side effects associated with drug intake.

PMID: 17157069 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[fasindi]

Healing the childhood epidemics - Kenneth Boch, MD. THis is the book you need to read to find out all possible causes to ADHD. You will save yourself many hours/ days/ weeks that I wasted going through the pile of information available. Also look up neurofeedback. It is very promising & the results are almost permanent unlike drugs. Please do not drug your child before doing any of these. IMO. Good luck.

[FunkOdyssey]

Hey Funk can you please expand how the Ritalin 'nearly killed' you? What would you recommend to minimise the chances of such problems happening for other people?

Ok -- I took a 20mg Ritalin SR. I started to feel dizzy, heart rate was not elevated but pulse felt very weak. My hands and feet went numb and then this spread to include my forearms and lower legs, basically creeping up my arms and legs. I had some kind of very unpleasant feeling in my chest that I can best describe as not being able to exhale fully (at least it felt that way), and severe anxiety. I tried to stand up and could barely walk, I ended up crawling around a little. I chewed up a hefty 1mg dose of xanax and held it under my tongue for a bit and then swallowed, and all of the symptoms described began to diminish in about 5-10 minutes.

I don't know what that was exactly. I hold Lyme responsible because when I was younger and in better health I used all kinds of stimulants without trouble, including on some rare occasions illicit stimulants stronger than ritalin.

[Construct]

Hey Funk can you please expand how the Ritalin 'nearly killed' you? What would you recommend to minimise the chances of such problems happening for other people?

Ok -- I took a 20mg Ritalin SR. I started to feel dizzy, heart rate was not elevated but pulse felt very weak. My hands and feet went numb and then this spread to include my forearms and lower legs, basically creeping up my arms and legs. I had some kind of very unpleasant feeling in my chest that I can best describe as not being able to exhale fully (at least it felt that way), and severe anxiety. I tried to stand up and could barely walk, I ended up crawling around a little. I chewed up a hefty 1mg dose of xanax and held it under my tongue for a bit and then swallowed, and all of the symptoms described began to diminish in about 5-10 minutes.

I don't know what that was exactly. I hold Lyme responsible because when I was younger and in better health I used all kinds of stimulants without trouble, including on some rare occasions illicit stimulants stronger than ritalin.

FunkOdyssey,

This is a very serious reaction to Ritalin, no doubt, but I would seriously doubt that Ritalin 'nearly killed you'. Given your symptoms and the fact that a Xanax very quickly alleviated the symptoms, this sounds like you had a Ritalin-triggered anxiety attack. This is not entirely unexpected for a first-time dose of Ritalin, especially for a person prone to anxiety problems in the first place (I'm assuming this is why you had a Xanax prescription).

Ritalin and other stimulants are definitely powerful medications and are not appropriate for all people and situations, but they can be incredible useful in improving the quality of some people's lives. Unfortunately, they've gained a very poor reputation in many circles, and I'm just trying to avoid perpetuating this reputation.

[FunkOdyssey]

FunkOdyssey,

This is a very serious reaction to Ritalin, no doubt, but I would seriously doubt that Ritalin 'nearly killed you'. Given your symptoms and the fact that a Xanax very quickly alleviated the symptoms, this sounds like you had a Ritalin-triggered anxiety attack. This is not entirely unexpected for a first-time dose of Ritalin, especially for a person prone to anxiety problems in the first place (I'm assuming this is why you had a Xanax prescription).

I wouldn't describe myself as anxiety-prone, I have had some anxiety as a result of Lyme but it has been reduced substantially by antibiotic therapy. The xanax is not used even once monthly, it is for emergencies or extreme circumstances only. As far as what exactly was happening during this reaction, anxiety is an obvious answer but I hesitate to label that because I have experienced anxiety before and this was different and far more severe. I'm really not sure. I also don't think it can be said with certainty that if xanax worked it had to be anxiety, because benzodiazepines are probably the closest thing to an overall "antidote" to ritalin -- apart from its specific effects on anxiety, it counters everything else that ritalin is doing.

Ritalin and other stimulants are definitely powerful medications and are not appropriate for all people and situations, but they can be incredible useful in improving the quality of some people's lives. Unfortunately, they've gained a very poor reputation in many circles, and I'm just trying to avoid perpetuating this reputation.

I think they have a reputation for being incredibly useful in improving the quality of some people's lives, as well as a reputation for being occasionally dangerous. I think both reputations are well deserved.

Again I do blame Lyme rather than ritalin, and if asked how to prevent this from happening to someone else, I would advise you to avoid wooded areas and long grass during the warmer months of the year.

[HereInTheHole]

Some people -- because of the intensity of the ADD or because of other personality issues -- will be helped more profoundly if the right drugs are given first. Imagine telling a persistently depressed and suicidal person to cheer up, think positive. ADD kids might not kill themselves but they can lose years of education before the right help is given. They can grow demoralized and angry. Family members become detached. Intercede too late and the kid's negative patterns are much more firmly entrenched. Step in with the correct meds early on, then teach some useful skills with behavioral therapy, and the kid has the best chance possible at a happy, productive life. You can think of ADD meds like heart meds for a weakened heart: use them initially but build up that heart so that less and less of the meds are necessary.

And hell yes get some Western-style medical tests. They're not perfect but they're the best that humans currently have. Nothing trumps science except more science.

Edited by NarrativiumX, 29 December 2008 - 06:03 PM.

[Shannon Vyff]

My 9 year old boy has been recommended as having ADHD by a few teachers, we'll be starting the medical specialists this coming spring, I'm sure I'll be relying on the experience of many here at ImmInst as I try to make the best decisions for my son--I don't want to mess up his brain, any internal organs, cause damage to his sperm count (which I've read some meds do)--but at the same time I want to help him concentrate and have better control over his emotions. I'm sure our upcoming time with the medical establishment will feel like a roller coaster ride.

[wayside]

My 9 year old boy has been recommended as having ADHD by a few teachers...

My son was also "recommended" by a teacher.

Turns out she was just lazy - when my son was bored, he got very fidgety and wouldn't stay in his seat; she didn't want to deal with it by giving him more challenging work or working with him to channel the energy properly, and basically wanted to drug him into submission. A 7 year old boy who can't sit still - who ever heard of that? Must be ADHD...

The school put him through a battery of tests and evaluations, which basically showed he was a highly intelligent, fidgety 7 year old. We let the OT people do some harmless things because it made them happy, and made us look like we were doing something and weren't dismissing their opinions, but we refused to consider drugging him. Crazy.

It amazed me what an industry has sprung up around this - testing, evaluations, special programs, special funding, etc. All it takes is someone to drop the ADHD label.

I know for some kids it is a serious problem and the kids need help. In my son's school, though, something like 20% of the kids were on drugs (you should ask what the %age is at your son's school, you may find the answer enlightening). There's *no way* that many kids are ADHD. They were way too eager to pin the label.

Good luck with your son.