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Methuselah Foundation Website Updated


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#61 eternaltraveler

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 02:24 AM

whilst Utopianism would be potentially limitless access to resources for all individuals.


I don't believe in fairy tales

In any case, I believe zoolander was referring to matters of conflict of interest, contravention of the articles of incorporation and tax law.


if that is what zoolander was saying, I'm afraid is very misinformed indeed, and it doesn't sound like any of you even watched john's video, because everything you are all basing these ridiculous arguments on, while completely invalid in and of themselves, doesn't even have a basis in reality. It's crystal clear john is talking about getting money and credibility for the MF, and the meme.

So can we drop the anti capitalism bullcrap against someone who has dedicated his life to fighting aging when he could, and would, make dramatically more money elsewhere.

Edited by elrond, 14 December 2008 - 02:30 AM.


#62 zoolander

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 03:29 AM

I don't think you understand the meme very well if thats what you think


well at least not the one you understand. Perhaps you can explain what your understanding of the meme is in regards to people posting atthe institute. My thoughts are that this is, at the moment, a playground for quick fix solutions for people interested in nootropic, supplement and nutritional health solution and not "exclusively for charitable, educational, and scientific purposes" as stated in section 4 of the institutes mission statement.

the organization is non profit. Does that mean every single person who posts on these forums are supposed to be some kind of communist who does everything they ever do purely out of altruistic reasons?


That's a bit of an exaggeration elrond. You can't really call a communist alturistic. Communism is still an economy based on capital where people feed the self by working. Alturism, well at least by definition, is the unselfish concern for others welfare.

if that is what zoolander was saying, I'm afraid is very misinformed indeed, and it doesn't sound like any of you even watched john's video, because everything you are all basing these ridiculous arguments on, while completely invalid in and of themselves, doesn't even have a basis in reality. It's crystal clear john is talking about getting money and credibility for the MF, and the meme.


that was what I was saying. Perhaps we have watched different videos Elrond. I watched the short snippet of John talking on the frontpage of the MF website. Is that the one you are referring to? If you want I can transcribe the video that I watched and explain how I became involved in this thread.

everything you are all basing these ridiculous arguments on, while completely invalid in and of themselves, doesn't even have a basis in reality.


Ridiculous in what way? Others have shared their concern. So you are one voice presenting the case for John and MF, which I respect highly, but you can't just gag me by stating that my points are ridiculous and invalid. Explain.

It's crystal clear john is talking about getting money and credibility for the MF, and the meme


Yes with the apparent lack of concern or mention about minimising the suffering that comes with aging. That's what got me wound up in the first place.

So can we drop the anti capitalism bullcrap against someone who has dedicated his life to fighting aging when he could, and would, make dramatically more money elsewhere


Spoken like a true dictator *laughs*. The fact that John may have dedicated his whole life to fighting aging would have probably been worth a mention in the video. The fact that he could have chosen another career and earned a hell of a lot more money doing so and that you suggest I not challenge him because of that is worthy of me gesturing a wanking motion with my right hand.

#63 Prometheus

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 03:31 AM

whilst Utopianism would be potentially limitless access to resources for all individuals.


I don't believe in fairy tales

It's nice to dream. :) As if eternal life isn't an equivalent fairy tale? Are you kidding?

In any case, I believe zoolander was referring to matters of conflict of interest, contravention of the articles of incorporation and tax law.


if that is what zoolander was saying, I'm afraid is very misinformed indeed, and it doesn't sound like any of you even watched john's video, because everything you are all basing these ridiculous arguments on, while completely invalid in and of themselves, doesn't even have a basis in reality. It's crystal clear john is talking about getting money and credibility for the MF, and the meme.

So can we drop the anti capitalism bullcrap against someone who has dedicated his life to fighting aging when he could, and would, make dramatically more money elsewhere.


It would be arrogant and ignorant to assume these discussions are 'ridiculous', when if fact they are quite valid, relevant and provide important feedback on the public face of methuselah. There are reasons why marketing and PR companies exist and competitive advantages to those who use them. :)

However, since you have raised the subject on earning dramatically more money elsewhere, does this mean in a different career (i.e. supplement sales)? My understanding is that John has not yet obtained a doctorate which would preclude him from employment as principal investigator or lecturer. Most doctoral students live on a pittance.

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#64 zoolander

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 03:45 AM

hang on, you said

I don't believe in fairy tales


but in the side panel under your name in the from section it says

On a Caribbean island swimming in turquoise waters


I thought you lived in Boulder, CO.

#65 Prometheus

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 03:56 AM

elrond:

I just viewed your own video vignette and you said you're working on 'immunosens', right? You also said that 'involves removing a portion of the immune system that goes bad with age' and 'allowing the immune system to rejuvenate itself'.

I have an interest in immunology and would like to find out more on this. :) My understanding about the aging immune system is thymic atrophy and autoimmunity. Is there any more material?

#66 Ben Simon

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:03 AM

Ben originated the idea I spent months developing for example. He's certainly a doer.


I did? ...Cool. Is it possible you are thinking of a different person called Ben?

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#67 brokenportal

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:18 AM

Yes with the apparent lack of concern or mention about minimising the suffering that comes with aging. That's what got me wound up in the first place.



John said, “money or credibility or both to do all the rest.” What do you think that "all the rest" is refering to?

#68 Ben Simon

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:20 AM

I don't think stating that people are primarily motivated by self-interest is insulting.


Neither do I. But that's not what you said. You said you think all life extensionists are primarily interested in their own survival. And that's just not true.

Cool. Lemme know when you have some facts that support your position. I am waiting with baited breath.


Fact: My interest in this issue is motivated by concerns for the whole of humanity. Easy. :)

Evidenced by...?


Raising awareness about the possibility of life extension will benefit our preparedness for that possibility just as it will benefit research. Were Actuarial Escape Velocity to be achieved in mice the hope is that this would send a twofold message. 1) The same is possible in humans. 2) The same is inevitable in humans, so let's get our affairs in order.

In the meanwhile, while it is much too premature to start implementing policy initiatives and the like so as to prepare us for a post aging world, the discussion is certainly underway. It's largely academic, but that's okay and to be expected. The singularitarians (which I can't claim to be) are on the job too, and as the evidence begins to possibly amass that they are onto something, we can expect the world to take notice. Talking about these issues publically is important, but at this stage in the game I believe that discussion is still going to be primarily about awareness. That awareness serves a dual function, and one of those functions is facilitating preparedness.

#69 zoolander

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:25 AM

Hang on a second.... that wasn't in there before or else it would have been mentioned as you just did then brokenportal.

Edited by zoolander, 14 December 2008 - 04:31 AM.


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#70 Ben Simon

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:27 AM

Hang on a second.... that wasn't in there before or else it would have been mentioned as you just did then brokenportal.


I believe it's always been there.

#71 zoolander

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:32 AM

I am sure if I had heard that then I would not have entered this conversation.

#72 eternaltraveler

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:32 AM

but you can't just gag me by stating that my points are ridiculous and invalid. Explain.


Well for starters you completely ignored the rest of John's video where he talked about wanting to cure aging since he was very little etcetera.

Here is the line that got your anti-capitalism circuits all tangled up.

lysosens... because it's the sens strand that has the nearest term potential to be turned into therapy, if it is turned into therapies we'll either get money or credibility or both.


He said we'll get money and credibility because he thinks lysosens actually can work in the near term (you know by curing little things like heart disease, stroke, and Alzheimer's), which will supply credibility for the SENS platform, and money to work on it. It could start an avalanche of resources flowing into engineering approaches in dealing with aging and age related diseases. Evidently you just heard the word "money" and it flipped some switch that shunted to some pathway that said "money=evil", that sent you off on this tangent.

Most doctoral students live on a pittance.


yes. So does john... I wish I had a pittance.

#73 Shepard

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:33 AM

I really think we must all be watching different videos. I still don't understand the argument.

Edited by shepard, 14 December 2008 - 04:34 AM.


#74 eternaltraveler

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:34 AM

Ben originated the idea I spent months developing for example. He's certainly a doer.


I did? ...Cool. Is it possible you are thinking of a different person called Ben?


umm, maybe

which ben are you? :)

#75 Ben Simon

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:47 AM

which ben are you? :)


Ha ha ha. Not the Ben who works at the MFoundation, if that's who you mean. Other Ben. Australian. Philosophy MA. Works in movies. Likes walks on the beach.

Nice to met you. :)

#76 eternaltraveler

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 05:32 AM

ah, my bad :)

#77 suspire

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 06:46 AM

I really think we must all be watching different videos. I still don't understand the argument.


*Hint* It's the one with Jenna Jameson.

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#78 kismet

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 05:25 PM

In this case, though, it makes no difference to me if people positively contribute to imminst, because they're trying to be egoists or altruists or want to get rich in the long term or whatever.


We have a lot of members like you diluting the meme.

From section 4 of the mission:

# Section 4 -- Nonprofit Educational & Charitable Organization

ImmInst is organized exclusively for charitable, educational, and scientific purposes as may qualify it as exempt from federal income tax under applicable sections of the Internal Revenue Code (1986), as amended, or corresponding section(s) of any future federal tax code. Notwithstanding any other provisions in this Constitutions or in the Bylaws, ImmInst shall not engage in any activities that would endanger its status as exempt from federal income tax under Section 501©(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, or its status as a corporation, contributions to which are deductible under Section 170©(2) of the Internal Revenue Code.

It's sad that you seem to be dismissing all the people that help your cause, but for different moral reasons than your own. I hope you don't scare them away! On the other hand I'm always trying to improve my understanding of "the meme" or much rather the science required to accomplish it, so I appreciate your concerns. But I am having a hard time understanding or applying "morals", I am having a hard time accepting their existence to begin with, so it's quite difficult to talk about "right" or "wrong" in any context. Thus I tolerate most  things that do not cause me any harm. There is not one single person in this world that I can completely agree with regarding their motives, morales, etc, but I have to live with it...

You're talking about imminst as an organisation once again, forum members are not part of this charity, this organisation, but part of a public board and as such I think we have to tolerate their motives and there is not much point debating them, because naturally they will greatly differ. The same way we did not outright ban anyone heavily criticising our motives, ideas and intentions, but tolerated their opinion, even if their ideas were outrageous and stupid. Did you propose to ban them and delete their posts back then? Certainly they were diluting the meme and spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD).

Why do you think the mfoundation changed their style? Did they 'sell out'? No, they try to attract thousands of people further diluting the meme, do you think pictures of "happy old guys playing with their grand children" are going to attract hardcore immortalists, transhumanists or even the run of the mill life extensionists? Do you think they will really understand the meme, better than we do? Good joke!
The mfoundation is just trying to attract old people with lots of old money, who just want to slightly improve their health, those clueless people normally popping a centrum multi-vitamin to "improve their health" (it's not their fault anyway), but they are as helpful and as important to us as anyone else.

I mostly care about life extension and science. If you want to condemn me for my interest in life extension and science, which unfortunately is driven by different moral ideas than your own, fine, I'll be contributing to the cause - undiluted SENS-style, but devoid of any moral ideas - regardless of the fact.

ben, my interest is motivated by concerns for the whole of humanity too! It doesn't make it any less egoistical, though. I want humanity to thrive, because this will improve my life as much as it will improve their life and as humans need to socialise this the only way to improve my quality of life to the max.
Evolutionary biology has proven, more or less conclusively, that anything we do is motivated by some egoism. Richard Dawkin's selfish gene theory is one interesting example, we try to produce as many copies of our genes as possible, that's why we support family members and members of our species the way we do and it explains the existence of altruism pretty well. Whether this concept still completely applies to "intelligent" humans is another issue.
You see it depends quite a lot on one's interpretation, eventually one can reduce most motives to "I want xy", because xy makes me happy or at least I think that xy will make me happy. The variable can be altruistic or seemingly egoistic.

Edited by kismet, 14 December 2008 - 05:39 PM.


#79 Richard Leis

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 07:32 PM

I'm John Schloendorn. I work on LysoSENS in Tempe, Arizona.

One important aspect of aging is junk accumulations, molecules that you don't need where they are like cholesterol in the artery wall, or plaques and tangles that accumulate in the aging brain and I try to degrade these accumulations with enzymes from other species.

I wanted to cure aging since I was very little and the question, the important question, was really just how; that's the difficult question and I naturally fall upon Aubrey de Grey and SENS and they seemed like the most, Aubrey seemed to have the most convincing plan of how to cure aging of all...nobody else had any plan, really, and so I decided to work for him and I fell upon LysoSENS in particular because it seems like the SENS strand that has the nearest term potential to be turned into therapies and I figured if it is turned into therapies we'll either get money or credibility or both to do all the rest, so we'll do just the low hanging fruit first. That's what LysoSENS is.



#80 Michael

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 11:18 PM

I'm John Schloendorn. I work on LysoSENS in Tempe, Arizona.

Thank you, Richard -- I was just about to do this myself.

Zoo, I have to take your good faith here as given, because I've been interacting w/you for a few years now on Imminst and know that you're sincere and informed, so I know you're not being malicious; for that very reason, I'm at a bit of a loss to explain your reaction to this video. Did your player skip or mute out? Did your memory circuits fail to encode half of the content? Were you painting your house and didn't open the windows while you watched it :|? ? Because it seems pretty darned clear what John is saying, in context, and the pecuniary motive you seem to've taken away from the vid seems clearly at odds with the actual content of his bit:

1. [Brief, nontechnical explanation of the role of lysosomal aggregates in aging and age-related disease, and the lysosomal xenohydrolase ("LysoSENS") fix for it.]

2. John has always wanted to cure aging; SENS is the most -- in fact, the only convincing plan of how do it.

3. Of the SENS panel, John chose to work on LysoSENS in particular "because it seems like the SENS strand that has the nearest term potential to be turned into therapies and I figured if it is turned into therapies we'll either get money or credibility or both to do all the rest, so we'll do just the low hanging fruit first. That's what LysoSENS is".

Let's work that again, backwards:LysoSENS is the SENS strand that we're likely to turn into therapies soonest; once we have it licked, the Foundation's ability to raise money and support from the scientific and political establishment will be enhanced; this will make it easier to go after the rest of the panel.

That seems like noble ambition matched with smart strategizing (and it helps that John is really smart, works like Edison, and is single-mindedly devoted to the cause rather than doing whatever happens to seem interesting, to which factors I can personally attest). Do you really have a problem with any of that?

-Michael

Edited by Michael, 14 December 2008 - 11:21 PM.


#81 .fonclea.

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 12:28 AM

Right, did I mention that I do this only to get laid...?




I did not know researchers was so atractives... :|?

#82 zoolander

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 05:26 AM

That seems like noble ambition matched with smart strategizing (and it helps that John is really smart, works like Edison, and is single-mindedly devoted to the cause rather than doing whatever happens to seem interesting, to which factors I can personally attest). Do you really have a problem with any of that?


No I do not have a problem with that Michael. What I had a problem with was the way I heard the video play out and the thought of someone or some group conducting research to cash in on it and for credibility.

John has always wanted to cure aging; SENS is the most -- in fact, the only convincing plan of how do it


I do not doubt that John has always wanted to cure aging but I do doubt that SENS is "the only convincing plan of how to do it".

if the video, when played in full, says exactly what Richard has posted above then I sincerely apologise to John. I played the video several times because I did not believe what I heard. I did not here the comments about the low hanging fruit. Why I did not hear this I do not know. It may be related to one of the reasons that Michael provided apart from the painting of the house one because I have a bunch of live in mexican midgets who do my chores.

I am very passionate about helping others and to hear someone talk about conducting valuable research in a field that I work in and are very passionate about mention that it's for the money and credibility well....that just drove a knife into my gut and stimulated a response fueled purely by catecholamines. This is not the first time that I have gone in head first to challenge something I believed to be wrong (people know this) and it won't be the last time that I apologise for doing so either.

John I apologise.

I believe I owe you a blow job. Will that pass for getting laid? I'm heterosexual but I think under the circumstances.........

P.S apologies to any mexican midgets that I may have offended as a result of this post

Edited by zoolander, 15 December 2008 - 01:24 PM.


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#83 Prometheus

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 11:18 AM

2. John has always wanted to cure aging; SENS is the most -- in fact, the only convincing plan of how do it.


Out of curiosity: is that because it's the best plan or because no one else has a plan? :|?

There are numerous and innovative lines of investigation aimed at unravelling the mechanisms of aging from which potential treatments can be derived. Just in this weeks Nature journal alone there's a report on centrosome orientation in stem cells vs aging. Do you think its useful to only promote one methodology? I ask that because there appears to be a conflict of interest between being a scientist researching aging and a sens scientist. And it all leads back into what John said.

I've never heard a research group proclaim 'we are the only ones with a solution'. :)

Let's work that again, backwards:LysoSENS is the SENS strand that we're likely to turn into therapies soonest; once we have it licked, the Foundation's ability to raise money and support from the scientific and political establishment will be enhanced; this will make it easier to go after the rest of the panel.

That seems like noble ambition matched with smart strategizing (and it helps that John is really smart, works like Edison, and is single-mindedly devoted to the cause rather than doing whatever happens to seem interesting, to which factors I can personally attest). Do you really have a problem with any of that?


There is no doubt about what John is saying, i.e. that lysosens is a step towards bringing more money and credibility to aid sens. The problem I have is with the trivialization of the potential benefits for cardiovascular disease (CVD) and alzheimers if lysosens were to actually work (not to mention the unscientific arrogance that it's a given that it will). I mean if it really were to work, it would probably be the best treatment available for CVD and the only treatment for alzheimers and would probably be worth billions commercially. But most importantly it would help a LOT of people. Yet that is not talked about at all. Money and credibility but no mention of bringing health to people and that's when you risk BS detector activation.

Given that the website is seeking to appeal to a broader audience with, as kismet said, "happy old guys playing with their grand children", it's not unwarranted to consider disingenuous testimonials from researchers on the front page that are so ... brutally honest. :)

#84 brokenportal

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 07:39 PM

2. John has always wanted to cure aging; SENS is the most -- in fact, the only convincing plan of how do it.


Out of curiosity: is that because it's the best plan or because no one else has a plan? :|?

There are numerous and innovative lines of investigation aimed at unravelling the mechanisms of aging from which potential treatments can be derived. Just in this weeks Nature journal alone there's a report on centrosome orientation in stem cells vs aging. Do you think its useful to only promote one methodology? I ask that because there appears to be a conflict of interest between being a scientist researching aging and a sens scientist. And it all leads back into what John said.

I've never heard a research group proclaim 'we are the only ones with a solution'. :)

Let's work that again, backwards:LysoSENS is the SENS strand that we're likely to turn into therapies soonest; once we have it licked, the Foundation's ability to raise money and support from the scientific and political establishment will be enhanced; this will make it easier to go after the rest of the panel.

That seems like noble ambition matched with smart strategizing (and it helps that John is really smart, works like Edison, and is single-mindedly devoted to the cause rather than doing whatever happens to seem interesting, to which factors I can personally attest). Do you really have a problem with any of that?


There is no doubt about what John is saying, i.e. that lysosens is a step towards bringing more money and credibility to aid sens. The problem I have is with the trivialization of the potential benefits for cardiovascular disease (CVD) and alzheimers if lysosens were to actually work (not to mention the unscientific arrogance that it's a given that it will). I mean if it really were to work, it would probably be the best treatment available for CVD and the only treatment for alzheimers and would probably be worth billions commercially. But most importantly it would help a LOT of people. Yet that is not talked about at all. Money and credibility but no mention of bringing health to people and that's when you risk BS detector activation.

Given that the website is seeking to appeal to a broader audience with, as kismet said, "happy old guys playing with their grand children", it's not unwarranted to consider disingenuous testimonials from researchers on the front page that are so ... brutally honest. :)



Im quite sure that the web site delves in to this stuff that you mention, and that the video clip was meant to be a breif minute long clip. Its just a clever little intro peice. Im sure thats not what John would say to somebody like Katie Couric. Do you really think thats his entire stance on the situation?

#85 brokenportal

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 10:37 PM

I did not here the comments about the low hanging fruit. Why I did not hear this I do not know.....
....John I apologise.


I figured it was a misunderstanding and that you couldnt possibly be that gratuitous. It was definently confusing for a while there though.

#86 Prometheus

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 12:07 AM

Im quite sure that the web site delves in to this stuff that you mention, and that the video clip was meant to be a breif minute long clip. Its just a clever little intro peice. Im sure thats not what John would say to somebody like Katie Couric. Do you really think thats his entire stance on the situation?


That is the opinion and the impression of an 'outsider' (me). Evidently you (plural) are a tight-knit group and it is natural to be defensive about your hard-earned achievements but sometimes that can be myopic and have an alienating effect on outsiders which I am sure is definitely not your intention.

#87 brokenportal

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 01:02 AM

Im quite sure that the web site delves in to this stuff that you mention, and that the video clip was meant to be a breif minute long clip. Its just a clever little intro peice. Im sure thats not what John would say to somebody like Katie Couric. Do you really think thats his entire stance on the situation?


That is the opinion and the impression of an 'outsider' (me). Evidently you (plural) are a tight-knit group and it is natural to be defensive about your hard-earned achievements but sometimes that can be myopic and have an alienating effect on outsiders which I am sure is definitely not your intention.



You may be right. I dont see it, but you may be. I guess that is what they have car for though. I think car is way to soft on the meme but it may be a genius move. I guess we'll see. They think that people will be hard pressed to accept indefinity, maybe at first, but with a good constant upsurge in media exposure, commercials and advertisements for it I dont think they will. And I think indefinity is the rock that we need to build this whole thing on, not the reduction of suffering. The reduction of suffering is a side effect of the struggle for indefinity and not the other way around, it seems to me.

#88 Prometheus

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 05:17 AM

The reduction of suffering is a side effect of the struggle for indefinity and not the other way around, it seems to me.

Most people - I would hazard to guess the vast, vast majority - simply cannot gain any intellectual traction on the notion of immortalism. However, increased health (treating CVD, Alzheimer's, etc), which is, as you say, a side effect of 'the struggle', is a valid and broadly resonating communication strategy. On the other hand, I think it's perfectly sensible to pursue ambitious biomedical research goals which may have a hidden agenda of dramatically extending lifespan. :|?

However, I realize the funding strategy appears to rely (thrive?) on notoriety and perhaps controversy. :) But that has its cons.

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#89 brokenportal

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 06:20 AM

The reduction of suffering is a side effect of the struggle for indefinity and not the other way around, it seems to me.

Most people - I would hazard to guess the vast, vast majority - simply cannot gain any intellectual traction on the notion of immortalism. However, increased health (treating CVD, Alzheimer's, etc), which is, as you say, a side effect of 'the struggle', is a valid and broadly resonating communication strategy. On the other hand, I think it's perfectly sensible to pursue ambitious biomedical research goals which may have a hidden agenda of dramatically extending lifespan. :|?

However, I realize the funding strategy appears to rely (thrive?) on notoriety and perhaps controversy. :) But that has its cons.


Most people are indeed almost completly impenetrable when your trying to get through to them with "immortalism".

Contrary to the name of the Institute, we use "indefinite healthy life extension". Over the last year and a half or so, I and many others have been finding that its become increasingly eaiser to persuade people to support life extension by talking about it in terms of indefinity and using a couple of other techniques. (line 36) This is in part due to practice and in part due to an increase in publicity like 60 minutes, colbert report, bbc news, ted talks, alex jones show, barbara walters special, etc.. So its working, and remarkably and increasingly well actually.

Treating alzheimers and CVD and stuff like that does resonate with people, but only about as much as feeding the somalians and curing aids and stopping street violence and lowering teen car crashes and stuff like that. It doesnt resonate nearly as deeply as indefinity. Indefinity is the next great step of humanity, its the next great uniter, its the next great step in the evolution of the universe, its a great deep thing on so many levels. Its something you can give a speech like this about, except in much much more powerful way. I understand what they are trying to do with car, but its kind of like trying to get people to go to a baseball game by enticing them to try out the bleachers. The base ball game is going to capture the hearts and minds of the people on a much grander scale. I cant think of a better analogy right now but Im sure you know what I mean.

The hidden agenda is fine, they are so good at possibly hiding it that Im not even sure if it is a hidden agenda. Aubrey is talking about it more and more in strict terms of reducing suffering.

I hope car works, and in spite of all my arguments here, I think it will break a lot of people into the meme. The big difference is, people fight hard, with all their being for indefinity.

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#90 Prometheus

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 07:47 AM

I hope car works, and in spite of all my arguments here, I think it will break a lot of people into the meme. The big difference is, people fight hard, with all their being for indefinity.


Bon Chance

You make a good ambassador for your cause.

:|?

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