24 replies to this topic

[edward]

Just as with the peanut thread this is somewhat from a paleo and low carb perspecitve.

Lets talk about dairy. We all drink it as babies so clearly our systems and those of all mammals can deal with it. Granted only some populations keep the ability to breakdown lactose after childhood. Though this is not real relevant for things that have next to no lactose like hard cheese.

Casein and Whey protein have great bio availability. Its usually either low in carbs or has a very low glycemic index/load.

People cite problems with dairy proteins, toxins etc

The only problem I personally have is that if I eat too much cheese it tends to sit in my stomach forever which can't be too good.

So bottom line Dairy, for or against, why and studies?

Edited by edward, 14 December 2008 - 08:45 PM.

[Mind]

Unfortunately this is a lightning-rod topic. I am aware of at least 3 other threads here at Imminst dealing with dairy/milk. Did a quick search and found the largest one. Good for review.

[edward]

Thanks, should have searched first

[JLL]

I stopped drinking milk (well, I still use some for coffee and my morning smoothie) when I read the argument that too much calcium is actually bad for the bones in the long run and that the countries that consume the most dairy also have the highest osteoporosis rates. Based on the research I did back then, this seemed to be true.

In countries where dairy consumption is low, BMD is lower, but it remains about the same throughout their lives, whereas in countries with high dairy consumption, BMD is initially high but drops dramatically in old age. The theory was that there is a limited number of osteoblasts, and you can either use them up early in life or spread them throughout your life. This seemed reasonable to me, but reading this forum and others has made clear that this "limited number of X in the human body" argument is not always true.

What do you think about this?

[Johan]

I stopped drinking milk about a year ago because my stomach doesn't tolerate it very well, although I can still eat small amounts of it without symptoms. Shortly afterwards, I got significantly less pimples. When I tried drinking milk for a shorter period again a few months ago, the pimples came back, only to disappear again when I stopped. These are just personal experiences, but anyway.

[woly]

Yeah since reading these forums I have stopped consuming dairy (besides whey and a bit of dark chocolate). The fact that the far majority of adults are lactose intolerant leads me to believe that even if you can drink milk and feel ok, your body may still be elliciting some kind of allergic/intolerant response. The IGF-1 content made me a bit warry. Epidemiological studies seem to be inconsistant but the possible correlation of milk consumption with osteoporosis and cancer makes me lean towards avoiding dairy. To be honest, i dont pretend to be completly on top of the research on dairy but I havnt seen any real benefits for it so i have just decided to go on the side of caution. As i see it, milk doesnt really offer any great benefit that would warrent me consuming it, its only a bit of protein, calcium and sugar. Anecdotically, when i stopped consuming dairy, I found a pretty major difference in my complexion and produced far less plegm then when I was drinking milk.

[Ben]

I love milk and drink Australian organic. I don't think there's anything more pure, so I'm not worried about any potential additives.

Atkins was pretty dead against milk. Right up until he fell over, shattered his pelvis, and died.


Oh and I think I remember seeing a study that recommended milk as the absolute best thing to have after a workout.

Edited by Ben - Aus, 16 December 2008 - 03:30 AM.

[niner]

I got infected with the "milk is toxic" meme decades ago, probably around the time it was first gaining traction. I mostly gave it up in favor of such wise beverage choices as diet colas. I didn't realize it at the time, but I was also giving up what might have been just about my only source of vitamin D, meager though it may have been. When I started drinking milk again, my skin got healthier and my blood pressure improved. Today I have osteopenia, which is probably related to my bad diet choices and vitamin D deficiency in the past. I'm working on correcting that now. I probably drink about two glasses a day now, and at least a half cup of yogurt. Sorry for the lack of references. I thought we could use a pro-milk anecdote amid all the antis.
Edit: spelling...

Edited by niner, 16 December 2008 - 03:45 AM.

[Shepard]

I drink whole goat milk. No particular reason, I just like the taste.

[JLL]

I've also read anecdotal reports that unpasteurized whole milk is better for the bones than pasteurized low-fat milk. If the "too much calcium in general is bad" is true then I don't see how that makes sense, but if there's something about pasteurized milk or low-fat milk that is bad then there might be something to it.

[quarter]

In the spirit of niner's anecdote: I notice no difference to anything whether I consume large amounts of dairy or none at all, I have been through periods of both.

I really like my two large bowls of bran flakes (and milled flax seeds) for breakfast, and as such consume a fair amount of milk each day and hope to continue to do so.

[CobaltThoriumG]

I drink about a half-gallon of organic nonfat milk each day. I haven't noticed any problems. I'm fit, about 178 lbs. at 72.5" tall and < 10% body fat. I used to drink non-organic milk. I didn't notice any problems then either. If it works, don't fix it, I say, unless the science is overwhelming.

[Mind]

I grew up on a farm and drank whole (mostly) organic milk straight from the cow everyday. After I moved away from the farm I was infected with the "avoid all fat, avoid it all the time, praise Dean Ornish" meme and started drinking skim milk. It sucked, but I got used to it. Lately I have been moving back to regular milk. I am not lactose intolerant and I have never had a problem with dairy. I have cheese, cottage cheese, and yogurt most days of the week, maybe 5% of my calorie intake.

I don't buy the argument that dairy products are the cause of the Western/U.S. obesity epidemic or that we shouldn't consume milk because no other animals in nature consume milk as adults (because they can't, otherwise they would).

I do buy the argument that dairy products could be improved by limiting or removing the growth hormones, antibiotics, and other things founds in the mass produced stuff.

[DukeNukem]

I drink whole goat milk. No particular reason, I just like the taste.

If I buy dairy--cheese, milk, butter--I always buy goat dairy. In particular it has minimal casein versus cow dairy. I'm still a little concerned that there are other factors in milk (cow or goat) that may be unhealthy. So, I keep my goat dairy consumption to a minimum, no more than 100 cals daily, and many days none. Mostly, I eat goat cheese, and I prefer raw goat cheese. Dairy is a very recent addition to our diets, same as grains. Dairy, contrary to its low GI value, also raises insulin by a significant percentage (perhaps an effect of whey?).

About a minute into this video milk is discussed:

[edward]

I drink whole goat milk. No particular reason, I just like the taste.

...snip Dairy is a very recent addition to our diets, same as grains. ...snip

While I am all for this argument with regards to most foods and said argument is one of the reasons I eat the way I do, I will cite first the fact that all mammals do drink milk as infants so in some form we have been consuming it since the very beginning. Granted human milk is different from cows milk. Second is the fact that many populations retain the ability digest lactose.

For sheer culinary variety (so I won't get bored with low carb) I am going to keep cheese, kefir and yogurt in my diet (I have already removed peanut butter, the lectin content was the nail in its coffin, alas it was a sad day as I do love peanuts/peanut butter)

Edited by edward, 19 December 2008 - 04:44 AM.

[sthira]

How long has the practice of drinking animal milk as a regular part of an adult human diet been around? I would think that before the advent machines to support vast fields of grains, it would have been difficult for families to support more than a few cows or goats. And I wonder about giving cow's milk to children in lieu of mother's milk, and how long this practice has been in existence?

Do other animals in nature drink the milk of another species? If not, then why should we? We may be no more evolved for cow's or goat's milk than we are for pig's milk or rat's milk or hyena's milk. We evolved to be sucklings -- but only in the first few years of our lives -- and sucklings of human mother's milk. The idea of walking up to a goat or a cow and directly suckling from it seems odd. But the idea of walking out into a field and picking an apple to eat does not seem odd. It would be odd for a goat to pick an apple, just like it would be odd for us to lean down and feed on grass.

[JLL]

Cats drink milk if you give it to them...

[sthira]

Cats drink milk if you give it to them...

Well, sure, domestic cats do indeed drink milk, and many seem to love it. In small doses cow's or goat's milk for cats is probably harmless. Isn't it the case, though, that once they're adults they become lactose intolerant like we do? If your cat loves the stuff, just don't replace their water with it, or they may soon develop nutritional problems. Feral cats do not drink cow's milk, nor do any of the world's other 30 or so species of wild cats.

[FunkOdyssey]

How long has the practice of drinking animal milk as a regular part of an adult human diet been around? I would think that before the advent machines to support vast fields of grains, it would have been difficult for families to support more than a few cows or goats.

It makes excellent logical sense for early people to keep cows and goats. There are tons of nutrients and calories available in plants that we cannot digest (grass). Enter the cow or the goat. They eat and digest the grass for us and transform it into a form of calories and nutrients that we CAN (generally) digest: milk.

That is just efficient use of available resources.

[.fonclea.]

I have dairies everyday : skimmed milk only if hot or a glass of fresh chocolate flavoured full milk (but it's when i have to wake up at 5h30 for work, i can't have anything else).
For cheese, it depends: i am from a country where cheeses are sacred so.... (i just have a piece of "Camembert" or "Port Salut" like others have some chocolate).

I don't have any problemes of digestion. And anyway we are all differents so there is no good diet or bad diet

[Ben]

i am from a country where cheeses are sacred so.... (i just have a piece of "Camembert" or "Port Salut" like others have some chocolate).

:'( I wish I was in France.

[Shepard]

This seems like an interesting review if anyone has access:

Folia Microbiol (Praha). 2008;53(5):378-94. Epub 2008 Dec 16.Links
Beneficial health effects of milk and fermented dairy products - Review.Ebringer L, Ferencík M, Krajcovic J.
Institute of Cell Biology, Faculty of Science, Comenius University, 842 15, Bratislava, Slovakia, ebringer@fns.uniba.sk.

Milk is a complex physiological liquid that simultaneously provides nutrients and bioactive components that facilitate the successful postnatal adaptation of the newborn infant by stimulating cellular growth and digestive maturation, the establishment of symbiotic microflora, and the development of gut-associated lymphoid tissues. The number, the potency, and the importance of bioactive compounds in milk and especially in fermented milk products are probably greater than previously thought. They include certain vitamins, specific proteins, bioactive peptides, oligosaccharides, organic (including fatty) acids. Some of them are normal milk components, others emerge during digestive or fermentation processes. Fermented dairy products and probiotic bacteria decrease the absorption of cholesterol. Whey proteins, medium-chain fatty acids and in particular calcium and other minerals may contribute to the beneficial effect of dairy food on body fat and body mass. There has been growing evidence of the role that dairy proteins play in the regulation of satiety, food intake and obesity-related metabolic disorders. Milk proteins, peptides, probiotic lactic acid bacteria, calcium and other minerals can significantly reduce blood pressure. Milk fat contains a number of components having functional properties. Sphingolipids and their active metabolites may exert antimicrobial effects either directly or upon digestion.

PMID: 19085072 [PubMed - in process]

[JLL]

This seems like an interesting review if anyone has access:

Folia Microbiol (Praha). 2008;53(5):378-94. Epub 2008 Dec 16.Links
Beneficial health effects of milk and fermented dairy products - Review.Ebringer L, Ferencík M, Krajcovic J.
Institute of Cell Biology, Faculty of Science, Comenius University, 842 15, Bratislava, Slovakia, ebringer@fns.uniba.sk.

Milk is a complex physiological liquid that simultaneously provides nutrients and bioactive components that facilitate the successful postnatal adaptation of the newborn infant by stimulating cellular growth and digestive maturation, the establishment of symbiotic microflora, and the development of gut-associated lymphoid tissues. The number, the potency, and the importance of bioactive compounds in milk and especially in fermented milk products are probably greater than previously thought. They include certain vitamins, specific proteins, bioactive peptides, oligosaccharides, organic (including fatty) acids. Some of them are normal milk components, others emerge during digestive or fermentation processes. Fermented dairy products and probiotic bacteria decrease the absorption of cholesterol. Whey proteins, medium-chain fatty acids and in particular calcium and other minerals may contribute to the beneficial effect of dairy food on body fat and body mass. There has been growing evidence of the role that dairy proteins play in the regulation of satiety, food intake and obesity-related metabolic disorders. Milk proteins, peptides, probiotic lactic acid bacteria, calcium and other minerals can significantly reduce blood pressure. Milk fat contains a number of components having functional properties. Sphingolipids and their active metabolites may exert antimicrobial effects either directly or upon digestion.

PMID: 19085072 [PubMed - in process]

Attached Files

•  milk.PDF   335.15KB   282 downloads

[CobaltThoriumG]

In the minus column is that galactose, component and metabolite of lactose, promotes glycation nearly as much as fructose. Uncooked milk itself is low in AGEs. This has me re-evaluating my high milk consumption. And goat milk has about the same amount of lactose as cow milk.

But keeping with dairy and AGEs, can someone tell me why cheese and butter are so high in AGEs?

Edited by CobaltThoriumG, 27 December 2008 - 05:05 PM.

[AgeVivo]

What about diary products and prostate cancer?

It is strange that no one here except woly seems to have heard of it.

I have stopped consuming dairy (...). The fact that the far majority of adults are lactose intolerant leads me to believe that even if you can drink milk and feel ok, your body may still be elliciting some kind of allergic/intolerant response. The IGF-1 content made me a bit warry. Epidemiological studies seem to be inconsistant but the possible correlation of milk consumption with osteoporosis and cancer makes me lean towards avoiding dairy.