24 replies to this topic

[Skötkonung]

I apologize if this question seems somewhat obvious or has already been asked, but what is the incentive to revive someone frozen by cryonics?

If society continues to view cryonics as less than mainstream and death as a natural part of the cycle of life, isn't it probable that few research dollars will find their way into reviving those in suspended animation? After all, there is a big difference between reviving a recently suspended organ for transplant and reviving an entire human and then curing their original cause of death. And even if the technology is developed to revive those in cryonic suspension, what is the financial incentive to revive these people? As it stands, its hard to even get an organ transplant for a living patient without the correct funding. If those who are frozen are already viewed as dead by mainstream society, what is the likelihood that anyone would cover the cost of reviving someone? If the technology is developed, what are the moral implications of bringing someone back to life in a time where their professional / cultural knowledge will be largely irrelevant or if the cost of giving them life would be paying a massive life-long debt? Could these people ever be re-integrated into society? In Larry Niven's "A World out of Time" people frozen by cryonics are brought back to life to become indentured servants of a totalitarian state due to the high cost of the procedure.

It seems to me that the best solution would be to have all those signed up for cryogenics, pool some of their money into a large research / fund and offer it and its accumulating interest as a prize for anyone who can successfully revive a person from cryostasis and heal their original ailment.

Any thoughts?

[brokenportal]

Good question. I havent heard this angle on it yet.

The simple answer that I think pretty much everybody imagines is that these people will probably be brought back after some degree of technological "singularity" occurs. In the future everything will be so automated and cheap and free that everybody will be free to pursue progress through intellectual rather than physical endeavors. So bringing people back I imagine will be all but free.

Why they would even want to bring them back, I suppose would be in the same kind of way people feel obligated to help anybody that is in trouble, been hit by a bus, drown and needs resuscetation etc... If I could go and let a bunch of people from say, the roman empire, out of some tubes of nitrogen right now I would be excited to do that, wouldnt you?

Edited by brokenportal, 15 December 2008 - 10:12 PM.

[suspire]

I apologize if this question seems somewhat obvious or has already been asked, but what is the incentive to revive someone frozen by cryonics?

I've asked this question about cryonics before and never heard an answer that convinced me. Mind you, I am not one of the community members who supports cryonics, so I come into the subject with a lot of skepticism.

I think the closest thing might be for the amusement/entertainment/historical factor--maybe to be placed in a zoo or showcased/studied in some fashion. I am not sure if it would motivate society to revive all of those frozen; rather they may choose famous individuals who has been frozen and/or some "Average Joes" (to get a 'slice of life' perspective).

I think your interest earning account idea has merit. I wouldn't count on humanity's benevolence. This community focuses its attention and resources on what it believes is "The Next Big Thing" (ending death). A future society will be similarily driven towards some other "The Next Big Thing" which we cannot presently conceive of and in turn, cryonicists will be "The Old Forgotten Thing", much in the way entire races of people, species of animals, societies, etc have all ended up going the way of the dodo for numerous reasons, not the least being lack of care, neglect and callous indifference.

Of course, humanity may suddenly transform into a bunch of saints, but eh, I wouldn't bet the house on it.

[brokenportal]

I dont understand your reasoning. So people from the past are comparable to like dancing monkeys that we all laugh at for our amusement? If we brought back say, George Washington or Ceasar then we would put them in a zoo? The motivation would be the same as the motivation for helping save any person in need of critical care at a hospital wouldnt it? Maybe it wouldnt, but what would be the difference? Sure in the past bad things happened but thats because the structure of societies was much harder to keep under control. Like for example bands of villainous murderers could constantly break out of jail and roam the country sides.

In the future why would they need to worry about the cost of bringing these people back? Dont you all envision a future where everything is automated and everybody is like a billionaire in the same way that we, with our computers and cars and everything are like billionaires compared to the richest of the rich in the 1800s?

Not all people are that callous, I care about the whole of humanity, why wouldnt we want everybody else to be happy too? and the ones that are that callous are that way because of how rampant fallacy is in the world. Once we pursue the elimination of that we will be much better off.

I apologize if this question seems somewhat obvious or has already been asked, but what is the incentive to revive someone frozen by cryonics?

I've asked this question about cryonics before and never heard an answer that convinced me. Mind you, I am not one of the community members who supports cryonics, so I come into the subject with a lot of skepticism.

I think the closest thing might be for the amusement/entertainment/historical factor--maybe to be placed in a zoo or showcased/studied in some fashion. I am not sure if it would motivate society to revive all of those frozen; rather they may choose famous individuals who has been frozen and/or some "Average Joes" (to get a 'slice of life' perspective).

I think your interest earning account idea has merit. I wouldn't count on humanity's benevolence. This community focuses its attention and resources on what it believes is "The Next Big Thing" (ending death). A future society will be similarily driven towards some other "The Next Big Thing" which we cannot presently conceive of and in turn, cryonicists will be "The Old Forgotten Thing", much in the way entire races of people, species of animals, societies, etc have all ended up going the way of the dodo for numerous reasons, not the least being lack of care, neglect and callous indifference.

Of course, humanity may suddenly transform into a bunch of saints, but eh, I wouldn't bet the house on it.

Edited by brokenportal, 16 December 2008 - 01:05 AM.

[Heliotrope]

maybe one's surviving family and future descendents and communities will care. Community of likeminded ppl like imminst/alcor/ci etc who will be watching each other's back, to make sure it happens

the descendents and other ppl will need to be raised well etc and feel it's right to follow ancestor's wish

Edited by HYP86, 16 December 2008 - 12:34 AM.

[Brainbox]

Cryonics is not my piece of cake actually, but as far as I understand it's not a matter of reviving, but hoping for / banking on a scanning technology that would be able to replicate dna and developed / grown (brain) structures, e.g. in a simulation.
To my knowledge no complete animal or human has ever returned from the infinite freezer.

Edited by Brainbox, 16 December 2008 - 12:56 AM.

[Heliotrope]

if what brainbox says is true. it's not much different from uploading.

a rabbit's kidney was in cryo and revived to work well. only an organ. not even the simplist animals? some worms and bugs? a frog, rat, rabbit? of course, those animals would not have self-awareness/identity/high-IQ

Edited by HYP86, 16 December 2008 - 01:34 AM.

[drus]

i wont get into a big discussion about this...but i personally believe that by the time the technology is developed to revive people from cryo-stasis, free-market capitalism, the monetary system and the greed based corporatocracy of today will be a thing of the past. we would be dealing with a society of completely different and higher moral and ethical standards than most can even comprehend today. molecular nanotechnology will revolutionize our entire way of thinking and being. 'money' wont even be a factor in revival.

[bgwowk]

i wont get into a big discussion about this...but i personally believe that by the time the technology is developed to revive people from cryo-stasis, free-market capitalism, the monetary system and the greed based corporatocracy of today will be a thing of the past.

Then I don't want to come back.

The question of why a future society would want to revive people is premised on what I call the "message in the bottle fallacy". Cryonics is not a time machine that just plops people into the future. Cryonics requires continuous effort of people and organizations. One might well ask why present-day society keeps people cryopreserved. Think about that.

[brokenportal]

Once the person is preserved do you know about how much yearly maintanence cost it requires? and you really wouldnt want to come back under some of those circumstances? If your not just saying that, then which ones and why?

[edward]

i wont get into a big discussion about this...but i personally believe that by the time the technology is developed to revive people from cryo-stasis, free-market capitalism, the monetary system and the greed based corporatocracy of today will be a thing of the past. we would be dealing with a society of completely different and higher moral and ethical standards than most can even comprehend today. molecular nanotechnology will revolutionize our entire way of thinking and being. 'money' wont even be a factor in revival.

So we are headed towards a utopia... might as well freeze myself now and skip all of this other bs

[drus]

haha...why am i not surprised at that one Brian! lol....a capitalist scientist haha!

edward, i wouldnt necessarily go so far as to say a 'real' utopia per se...but the very nature of the technology required for revival will have sweeping implications for society as a whole. the monetary system and capitalism are doomed to failure eventually...its just a matter of time. i have faith humanity will eventually grow out of its social/political/economic and spiritual infancy, and embrace something greater and better. by the time they start reviving us, the world will be so completely different on so many levels....of this i have absolutely no doubt.

[bgwowk]

by the time they start reviving us, the world will be so completely different on so many levels....of this i have absolutely no doubt.

Indeed. That is necessarily true.

Brokenportal, I think you may be missing the purpose of my question about maintenance. People ask why future society would want to help cryonics patients without seeming to notice that present society (more precisely, a subset of society) is already helping them. In principle, all that revival requires is long continuity of the belief that cryonics is important by a critical mass of people and resources. In other words, the social will for maintenance is practically the same as the social will for revival. People being preserved long enough to be revived implies that there are still other people around that care about reviving them.

[brokenportal]

by the time they start reviving us, the world will be so completely different on so many levels....of this i have absolutely no doubt.

Indeed. That is necessarily true.

Brokenportal, I think you may be missing the purpose of my question about maintenance. People ask why future society would want to help cryonics patients without seeming to notice that present society (more precisely, a subset of society) is already helping them. In principle, all that revival requires is long continuity of the belief that cryonics is important by a critical mass of people and resources. In other words, the social will for maintenance is practically the same as the social will for revival. People being preserved long enough to be revived implies that there are still other people around that care about reviving them.

I think that current society cares a lot about them and that the future and the people in between will too. But what Im saying is, to humor the idea that maybe they dont as much as we think they do, do they have to put in any yearly maintanence, because if these nitrogen tubes can just be shoved off into a corner some where and forgotten about as cryonics scientists come and go, probably into the tubes themselves, then there may be that chance that they could be forgotten and neglected.

[bgwowk]

...do they have to put in any yearly maintanence (to the storage units), because if these nitrogen tubes can just be shoved off into a corner some where and forgotten about as cryonics scientists come and go, probably into the tubes themselves, then there may be that chance that they could be forgotten and neglected.

Yes, cryogenic temperature storage requires regular attention to keep it going. Otherwise I would agree with you that being forgotten would be an issue. What people should ask is not whether there will be future interest in reviving cryonics patients, but rather whether the interest in cryonics that already exists can last long enough. Assuming that maintenance is motivated by interest in revival, then interest in revival will last as long as maintenance does.

[Mixter]

Apart from the incentive, there's ethics and there is something like contractual duty we can count on...

So, given nothing bad happened™ in between at your cryonics provider. I'm sure the race to revive
frozen patients will _eventually_ be on in the world of science, which will culminate in at least some
revivals of actual people when it's safe. So the initial incentive will be scientific fame if nothing else,
which should happen by itself as nanomedicine should eventually be available. If only to assess
the psychological adaptation and other details of actual human patients.

I assume that no matter what kind of government, the medical profession will always need a
minimum of quality assurance and legally binding supervision. Hence, after the point where it's possible,
I'm sure the existing cryonic survivors will add to the pressure to make the contracts with suspended
patients legally binding and cryonic providers would be supervised to revive them no
sooner or later than it's safe to do so.

[Wandering Jew]

Apart from the incentive, there's ethics and there is something like contractual duty we can count on...

So, given nothing bad happened™ in between at your cryonics provider. I'm sure the race to revive
frozen patients will _eventually_ be on in the world of science, which will culminate in at least some
revivals of actual people when it's safe. So the initial incentive will be scientific fame if nothing else,
which should happen by itself as nanomedicine should eventually be available. If only to assess
the psychological adaptation and other details of actual human patients.

I assume that no matter what kind of government, the medical profession will always need a
minimum of quality assurance and legally binding supervision. Hence, after the point where it's possible,
I'm sure the existing cryonic survivors will add to the pressure to make the contracts with suspended
patients legally binding and cryonic providers would be supervised to revive them no
sooner or later than it's safe to do so.

what if patient has no descendent, no friend, no one to force the contract ?? what if cryonic org decides to keep the money instead of spending on a patient who cant sue them???

[bgwowk]

what if patient has no descendent, no friend, no one to force the contract ?? what if cryonic org decides to keep the money instead of spending on a patient who cant sue them???

Good point. Continuing to manage large sums of money earmarked for long-term care does seem to provide an incentive to delay revival. It could even be defended indefinitely based on the argument of waiting for technology to become "just a little bit more" perfected. The counterpoint is that since it is possible to become upset about this today as hypothetical possibility involving hypothetical people and hypothetical technology hundreds of years in the future, it is not unreasonable to assume that future cryonicists would also get upset and seek legal remedies if and when such a situation ever became real. Even today a convalescent home that deliberately withheld treatments from incapacitated patients to keep more money would become the subject of a TV newsmagazine special.

[vyntager]

A question : do you believe that a human being is only worth its economical value ?

It is not my wish to argue that here, but maybe to point that if it is the case, then as soon as we can change human nature so as to make it more productive, ie, add economical value to it, then it should and will be done. Anyone wanting to remain competitive, and, actually, alive, would have to adapt to the new, more competitive market, by self modifying as well.

Leftovers would slowly be marginalized and impoverished, possibly to the point of starvation, in a society where being of the obsolete vintage of humanity will of course mean being less productive, and having less economical leverage than their posthuman peers.

You could also try to imagine what it would mean to competitively self modify yourself as to become more economically fit. What sort of sentient would result from such an evolution ? Does it seem to you you'd wish to prune any unneccesary, pointless humane junk out of your self, so as to become the superintelligent offspring of an arbitrage bot and a workaholic ?

On a side note, ever read "accelerando" from Charles Stross ?

[mpe]

Has any mamal ever been revived?

[bgwowk]

Has any mamal ever been revived?

Mammals can and have been revived after several hours at 0 degrees Celsius, but no colder. Preserving people at cryogenic temepratures (cryonics) is based on the premise of preserving the brain well enough so that very advanced future technologies, like nanotechnology, could someday put everything right again. It's a very arcane idea that is still nowhere near contemporary reversibility.

[drus]

i really think its a moot point to even discuss the 'money' angle with regards to revival. its fairly safe to say that revival will not even be remotely possible for probably at least another 50-70 yrs (and likely a lot longer 100+yrs) at the earliest, and thats being optimistic.... thats taking into consideration tech advancements as well as the world situtaion with all its present problems. read my previous 2 posts to see why i think money will not be an issue with revival. the monetary system that is used today will not exist in a century.....and like i said before, the very nature of molecular nanotechnology will COMPLETELY CHANGE humanity in almost every imaginable and measurable way, including economic philosophy! 'money', 'private wealth', 'privledge', 'rich, 'poor', 'old', 'young', 'social classes', 'war' 'unemployment' (hell, even the present day idea of work/employment will probably be obsolete) these will all become things of the past, they will have no meaning, relevance or place in a society that has perfected molecular nanotech! once this tech is invented, perfected and implimented....human society of the future will look back at this time period as astronomically primative in just about every way. with regards to incentive to revive people...scientific/sociological curiosity alone would probably be reason enough...let alone the humanitarian reasons. all this of course is assuming that humanity continues to advance and doesnt end up in another dark age...but lets try and keep positive here haha!

Edited by drus, 19 December 2008 - 06:03 PM.

[CobaltThoriumG]

How about the partial proceeds of a trust disbursed upon restoration of function? Generally, this type of trust probably would fail due to the rule against perpetuities, but I think there are some jurisdictions that have no such rule, i.e., a few US states, including Alaska, and maybe some Caribbean tax havens. The power of compund interest over centuries is a sight to behold. Like water carving a canyon. Drip by drip.

[forever freedom]

i really think its a moot point to even discuss the 'money' angle with regards to revival. its fairly safe to say that revival will not even be remotely possible for probably at least another 50-70 yrs (and likely a lot longer 100+yrs) at the earliest, and thats being optimistic.... thats taking into consideration tech advancements as well as the world situtaion with all its present problems. read my previous 2 posts to see why i think money will not be an issue with revival. the monetary system that is used today will not exist in a century.....and like i said before, the very nature of molecular nanotechnology will COMPLETELY CHANGE humanity in almost every imaginable and measurable way, including economic philosophy! 'money', 'private wealth', 'privledge', 'rich, 'poor', 'old', 'young', 'social classes', 'war' 'unemployment' (hell, even the present day idea of work/employment will probably be obsolete) these will all become things of the past, they will have no meaning, relevance or place in a society that has perfected molecular nanotech! once this tech is invented, perfected and implimented....human society of the future will look back at this time period as astronomically primative in just about every way. with regards to incentive to revive people...scientific/sociological curiosity alone would probably be reason enough...let alone the humanitarian reasons. all this of course is assuming that humanity continues to advance and doesnt end up in another dark age...but lets try and keep positive here haha!

So you think that once we master nanoteh we will create and live an utopian communism?

This is not impossible, but i wouldn't bet on it.

For the scenario that you're narrating to become true, our merging with machines would have to make every human equal in every characteristic. Do you really think that we will all become completely alike? Because unless we do, there will still be some people who are more "privileged" than the others, because their unique characteristics will be more needed/useful in certain times than others, giving them more power.

Edited by sam988, 21 December 2008 - 04:37 AM.

[drus]

sam, i wouldnt necessarily go so far as to say a 'real' 100% utopia per se...but the very nature of the technology required for revival will have sweeping implications for society as a whole. the monetary system and capitalism will go the way of the Dodo...trust me, its just a matter of time. i have faith humanity will eventually grow out of its social/political/economic and spiritual infancy, and embrace something far greater and better. by the time they start reviving us, the world will be so completely different on so many levels....of this i have absolutely no doubt.
'all' human beings will never actually be literally equal to each other in every measurable sense....but in the ways that really matter, yes, more or less. no offense but i dont think you've really given serious and thoroughly complete thought to what molecular nanotechnology will mean for humanity. change will happen because of this technology...and when i say change, i mean BIG TIME CHANGE! the things i mention will likely not happen 'over night', but do to this technology and its implications it will happen and happen fast by historically relative comparison! after the perfection of this technology, it will probably only take a generation for the changes to completely take place...if that even.