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"Heath Ledger" Risks


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#1 NDM

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 02:32 AM


As I want daytime to be in peak cognitive shape, I try to push towards late evening all the supplements with potential/proven sedating effect...even if mild. However, as time goes by, the list gets longer:

- Ashwagandha (Now 450 mg)
- L-Tryptophan (Now 500 mg)
- Magnesium (Jamieson 350 mg)
- Glucosamine HCl (Jamieson 1500mg)
- Vinpocentine (AOR 15 mg)
- DMAE (Now 250 mg)
- Olive Leaf Extract (Herbal Factors 500 mg)

- + Bacopa (AOR 300mg) - non-sedating, but I take it evening time nevertheless

My sleep is usually good to great: the stuff above is not in the least for sleep-related issues.

The question is: how are these things interacting? I've read stories on this forum with people not hearing the fire alarm while asleep; then, there's Heath Ledger's story...so, how do you handle your supps with sedating potential?

#2 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 04:07 AM

No, you are not going to die in your sleep while taking the above supplements in the listed dosages. Ashwagandha is about 2% as sedating as a benzodiazepine, tryptophan 1%, and the rest 0%. Take all of those supplements together, and you will be 3% as sedated as taking an average dose of a single benzodiazepine. Heath Ledger combined several of them at once.

The numbers are made up but I think they represent the risk fairly accurately.

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#3 Heliotrope

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 04:31 AM

The question is: how are these things interacting? I've read stories on this forum with people not hearing the fire alarm while asleep; then, there's Heath Ledger's story...so, how do you handle your supps with sedating potential?


you may be talking about my conditions. I don't know how many people slept through fire alarms (low % but still quite a #...), but I devastatingly realized I was one around MID September 2008.

it may be a newly developed innate condition that I now suspect I contracted in wilderness while camping out one time, got bitten by a few bugs and almost a dog (luckily escaped ). it's a sleeping condition/illness, and may be due to other things.

If you read through my history detailed over several months in this "sleep journal" you may not fear your supps 'cause I didn't take any one of them

http://www.imminst.o...o...ic=24417=

I don't abuse supplements, certainly a few occasionally, no where near your list (don't know about most) . I don't even drink alcohol despite many offerings.

Edited by HYP86, 19 December 2008 - 04:35 AM.


#4 bgwowk

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 07:17 AM

I don't know how many people slept through fire alarms (low % but still quite a #...), but I devastatingly realized I was one around MID September 2008.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this in the thread you started about this awhile back, but waking and then not remembering waking is a distinct possibility. I once knew a young man who worked as a computer programmer and who would sometimes have to wake to answer support calls in the middle of the night. He would sometimes have entire conversations with no recollection the next day. This would happen without any supps or drugs at all.

#5 NDM

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 11:50 AM

No, you are not going to die in your sleep while taking the above supplements in the listed dosages. Ashwagandha is about 2% as sedating as a benzodiazepine, tryptophan 1%, and the rest 0%. Take all of those supplements together, and you will be 3% as sedated as taking an average dose of a single benzodiazepine. Heath Ledger combined several of them at once.

The numbers are made up but I think they represent the risk fairly accurately.


That's good news. It would be nice if there were a universal sedation scale (0 lowest, 100 highest) and all supplement producers would be forced by law to mention on sedating products the number of sedating units for each. This way, one could calculate just how necessary it is/not to take those supps in the evening only.

#6 zoolander

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 12:12 PM

I once ran 3 days of samples on HPLC with a manual injection every hour for 72 hours. In the evening I would sleep beside the machine and wake up on the hour to an alarm to inject the sample. I could remember most of the evening but my samples ran fine

#7 Brainbox

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 12:50 PM

I don't know how many people slept through fire alarms (low % but still quite a #...), but I devastatingly realized I was one around MID September 2008.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this in the thread you started about this awhile back, but waking and then not remembering waking is a distinct possibility. I once knew a young man who worked as a computer programmer and who would sometimes have to wake to answer support calls in the middle of the night. He would sometimes have entire conversations with no recollection the next day. This would happen without any supps or drugs at all.

If I really need the sleep when I sleep alone I will wake-up when the alarm goes, shut it down, and go back to sleep without remembering. After I finally wake up, I realise the alarm has been shut off and wonder why that did happen. This also happens if I check if the doors and windows are securely locked before going to sleep. :-D
Buying a new alarm clock didn't help either.
I don't take massive amounts supplements either, so it's quite normal I think.

#8 zoolander

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 02:01 PM

NDM maybe you should switch the TV off and read some science

#9 NDM

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 05:15 PM

NDM maybe you should switch the TV off and read some science


I don't have a TV, and read many hours every day as part of my job description, but, unlike you, not in the sciences. If I had a chemistry/biology/medicine/pharmacology background probably I wouldn't have searched for this forum and relied instead on my own readings from PubMed. I am here to learn. So I think your remark is inappropriate. Not in itself, but for the underlying signal it sends to other folks here less knowledgeable in these areas.

#10 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 05:25 PM

I think what zoolander meant was that, the risks of the supplement regimen in question are so far removed (many orders of magnitude) from Heath Ledger's "take one of each color benzo like skittles" that you must have been impacted by the sensationalism of it in order to form this baseless concern. I agree Zoo's response was a little harsh, but I have to admit it took restraint on my part to answer this topic without employing sarcasm, so I can see where he's coming from.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 19 December 2008 - 05:27 PM.


#11 Heliotrope

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 11:08 PM

I don't know how many people slept through fire alarms (low % but still quite a #...), but I devastatingly realized I was one around MID September 2008.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this in the thread you started about this awhile back, but waking and then not remembering waking is a distinct possibility. I once knew a young man who worked as a computer programmer and who would sometimes have to wake to answer support calls in the middle of the night. He would sometimes have entire conversations with no recollection the next day. This would happen without any supps or drugs at all.

If I really need the sleep when I sleep alone I will wake-up when the alarm goes, shut it down, and go back to sleep without remembering. After I finally wake up, I realise the alarm has been shut off and wonder why that did happen. This also happens if I check if the doors and windows are securely locked before going to sleep. :-D
Buying a new alarm clock didn't help either.
I don't take massive amounts supplements either, so it's quite normal I think.


btw sorry for h-jacking the OP, but i feel this could be an illuminating situation as i wouldn't want to sleep away seemingly forever. I don't think OP needs to worry about sedative effects, you wont die in ur sleep, though that's a nice way to go if you must go

You don't realize the res building I'm in and my habit. I'm a careful person in this case. I always lock room's door inside out and I place keys away. The door slams shut even if I don't have the habit of keep closing it because my room's messy , the mechanism of room door works that way which would leave me keyless, not to mention the fire-doors, stairwell doors, building door slams shut too, not to mention I'd have to climb down stairs etc, not to mention all the doors self-lock and I'd be trapped. I literally woke up in the exact same cloth, same position, ~100% positive and I know I've no sleepwalking history due to " 'partner' monitoring" /other monitoring device if you catch my drift.. knw what i mean? besides, I've had many roommates too and they're all light sleeping and say I never even snore, yeah i know I don't snore fact, i've monitored it, tho i know my parents are big snorers


Another quirky thing about me is that I have a strong sense of responsibility most of the time and have in fact never fallen asleep in class no matter how hard I try, and in the past, before my conditions totally hit me around Mid to Late September, my longest time staying awake was about 36-38 range, though it happened very occasionally but it's enough for me to know that in such a case, I'd still be unable to fall asleep in class despite sitting in the back rows in a corner with the professor talking distantly in front of a lecture hall. if sleep, then it's ~seconds of microsleep very occassionally and I'm sensitive of these thigns

Something changed. I don't know if it's a physical thing or mental or both , but now I'm starting to feel the effects, especially clearly delineated since mid to late september and I could easily fall asleep and not waking up for up to 20 hrs easily.

I've talked to people bi biorhythm , circadian rhythm dept etc and a student said he could sleep for 36 hours straight, then seemingly be awake for a long time (didnt tell me how long despite I pressed him), and then sleep another weekend away. I thought this was ludicrous and he's a circadian student, but it really happens.

I never take sedatives , not even alcohol, if any supp, I only take the stimulating category but something happened along the way. I don't feel like in clinical depression even though the gloomy overcast weather puts me in SAD sit., but I guess that happens to most.

Edited by HYP86, 19 December 2008 - 11:18 PM.


#12 zoolander

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 11:12 PM

I don't have a TV


That's excellent. I respect that.

Anyhow Funk is right. He's been around long enough to know my posting style. I was having a light jab at the title. You have to understand NDM that the supplement forums used to be a great place to go however over the last few years it has turn into a joke. There is the odd good post however most just make me shudder at the how lazy and unthoughtful they are.

Please note sedation and sleep are not the same thing. In your initial post you use them interchangibly.

Edited by zoolander, 20 December 2008 - 11:59 AM.


#13 zoolander

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 11:14 PM

for reference:
What he was on..
AMBIEN
Sleeping pill. Patients report binge-eating and driving while unconscious after taking. Known in Britain as Zolpidem.

VALIUM
Used for insomnia and anxiety. Can cause dizziness and depression.
Should not be taken with anti-depressants.

ZOLOFT
Most popular antidepressant in US. Said to carry lower risk of suicide than other drugs. Also known as Sertraline.

XANAX
Treats anxiety disorders. Success is reduced if taken for more than eight weeks. Highly addictive.
Can cause hallucinations.

ZOPLICONE
One of the most addictive sleeping pills. Patients can suffer increased heart rate, mood changes, anxiety and fatigue.

DONORMYL
Antihistamine with common side-effects of drowsi - ness, insomnia and anxiety. Users should check before taking with others drugs.

#14 eternaltraveler

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:12 AM

the toxicology report said he was on

Mr. Heath Ledger died as the result of acute intoxication by the combined effects of oxycodone, hydrocodone, diazepam, temazepam, alprazolam and doxylamine


benzos can have a ceiling effect. Meaning after a certain point they don't sedate you any more no matter how much you take. They are often used in failed suicide attempts. I know someone who took more than 2000 mg of diazapam, 300 mg of ambien, and 100 mg of clonazapam, and then woke up days later feeling like garbage in a suicide attempt. However there are few opiates on the toxicology report, and they do not have a ceiling. The benzos probably took him to their ceiling and the opiates took him right over the top.

#15 zoolander

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:21 AM

I just dragged the above post from a blog. My point was the Heath took more than just a handful of pills.

#16 pycnogenol

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:31 AM

for reference:

What he was on..
AMBIEN
Sleeping pill. Patients report binge-eating and driving while unconscious after taking. Known in Britain as Zolpidem.

VALIUM
Used for insomnia and anxiety. Can cause dizziness and depression.
Should not be taken with anti-depressants.

ZOLOFT
Most popular antidepressant in US. Said to carry lower risk of suicide than other drugs. Also known as Sertraline.

XANAX
Treats anxiety disorders. Success is reduced if taken for more than eight weeks. Highly addictive.
Can cause hallucinations.

ZOPLICONE
One of the most addictive sleeping pills. Patients can suffer increased heart rate, mood changes, anxiety and fatigue.

DONORMYL
Antihistamine with common side-effects of drowsi - ness, insomnia and anxiety. Users should check before taking with others drugs.



Holy shit! No wonder the guy ended up dead. I don't take any of those. I do take a variety of supplements but I'm very,
very careful about each and every supplement I swallow and have regular blood /urine tests at the Doctors office.

Wow. Just wow. Incredible.

Edited by pycnogenol, 20 December 2008 - 12:36 AM.


#17 NDM

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 01:08 AM

@Zoolander & Funk:

Thanks for replying: I chose a sensationalist title for the thread precisely as a ploy to attract people (I've seen threads with no follow up comments whatsoever and didn't want that).

Seeing your replies I realize after the fact that I have been off the mark by a large margin, but if I hadn't been, I wouldn't have launched the thread. Precisely because, as stated in my initial post, my sleep is good to great, I have never taken a benzodiazepine, I've have never bothered to do research in this area, and I seem to be conflating sedation with stuff to take for falling asleep (In my uneducated mind, I imagine an alertness- to - sleep spectrum and I see supplements with sedating effect closer to the right-end, sleep spectrum).

In my mind there wasn't a clear rank-ordering of sleeping pills and sedatives because of lack of knowledge in this area. In other words, my concern was "baseless", but to be able to tell that it was so would have required the very knowledge that the launching of the thread purported to seek.

However, bruised ego aside, my main worry stems from a broader pedagogical problem: an assessment mindset stiffles learning because it shifts emphasis from acquiring new knowledge to presentational concerns. The initial comment by Zoolander that put me off is very similar with a classroom situation where the teacher claims to be commited to encourage students to learn, only to later tell them that the questions they dared to ask betray their stupidity. Who would then blame the students for not asking questions anymore?

His later comment, however, suggests the fact that he might not want uneducated minds here in the first place, so then mocking them would be a good strategy to force them to give up. If I were him, I would rethink the relative value of the uneducated - at the very least we are raw data providers and embodiments of different experiments with supplementing, some more foolish than others, but all instructive nonetheless. On top of that, the recent literature on domain expertise clearly points out the benefits of mixing the experts with the naives, to prevent premature convergence of thought and lock-ins into local maxima.

#18 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 09:24 AM

the recent literature on domain expertise clearly points out the benefits of mixing the experts with the naives, to prevent premature convergence of thought and lock-ins into local maxima.


You make some good points NDM. Your particular brand of eloquent naivete is certainly welcome. :-D

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#19 zoolander

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:13 PM

I am glad that you have pointed out how my impatience and annoyance towards the quality of some posts has come across to you. I will try to by a little more mindful.

However, bruised ego aside, my main worry stems from a broader pedagogical problem: an assessment mindset stiffles learning because it shifts emphasis from acquiring new knowledge to presentational concerns. The initial comment by Zoolander that put me off is very similar with a classroom situation where the teacher claims to be commited to encourage students to learn, only to later tell them that the questions they dared to ask betray their stupidity. Who would then blame the students for not asking questions anymore?


I highly recommend that you start consuming benzos to relax a little bit buddy. Overtime I think you will get use to my humour




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