50 replies to this topic

[Sillewater]

To build up my regimen I will add the supplements one at a time, with a logic that I find appealing, and hopefully will be able to notice results.

Some specs:

21 years old
Male
5'11"
80kg
Resting HR: 60-65 bpm
Blood Pressure: 120/80, the diastolic value varies from 70-80 mmHg

The regimen:

Breakfast (if I do eat, else just take without food)

Rhodiola Rosea (3% Rosavins, 1% Salidrosides) -- 0.5g to 1g
Fish Oil (DHA:EPA = 550mg/50mg + 6IU of mixed tocopherols) -- 1g (wondering if there will be depressive effects from the DHA)
Benfotiamine (if I eat breakfast) -- 150mg (anti-glycation)
Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate -- 50 mg (anti-glycation) (anti-glycation agents depends on if I eat or not in the morning)
L-Theanine -- 100mg (for a bit of a mood booster)
Taurine --850mg (for energy, might not take it all the time)
Caffeine -- 200mg (in case the Rhodiola and Theanine make me drowsy)
Grape Seed and Green Tea Extract
Kyolic AGE - 600mg with 380mg of lecithin
Piracetam + Choline Citrate -- dose depends (nootropic)
Vitamin D3 -- 1000IU

Lunch

V8 with carrot juice with pomegranate juice and whey protein
Benfotiamine
Gluc/MSM -- 500mg/1000mg (for my joints which feel a bit stiff, and detoxifying effects of MSM)
Creatine Ethyl Ester -- 2g

3 or 4 hours before dinner
Inositol hexaphosphate - 500mg (to deal with the iron accumulation in males)

Dinner

Vitamin D3 -- 1000IU
Tocopherol Gamma E -- 300mg of gamma
Vitamin K2 -- once a week
Fish oil
Benfotiamine

Sleep Stack

1 hour before bed Ashwaganda -- 450mg
Bacopa --450mg
(probably cycle these two, one type on week the other another week)
(take before bed because of long half life, bacopa maybe good for brain)

Right before bed Melatonin -- 3mg (every other day, hopefully there is not down-regulation)
Zinc/Magnesium -- 45mg/750mg (different forms including oxide to make up for poor bioavailability)
L-theanine -- 100mg (the l-theanine may help with the GABA deficiency analyzed from the braverman assessment, now I do not believe it, to me its pseudoscience, but may lead to a better ability to socialize)

Pre-workout

Caffeine -- 200mg
Rhodiola -- 1g
Taurine -- 850mg
Whey Protein

Post-workout
Whey Protein/Egg protein
Creatine Ethyl Ester --3-5g

In terms of diet, it is a low carbohydrate diet, high in fat and protein, around once a week I may treat myself to something carby.

I hope to get some blood work done before taking any of these supplements, then blood work done later to compare, depending on what my doctor says.

Goals are: Life extension, a bit smarter, a bit healthier.

Edited by Sillewater, 21 December 2008 - 09:37 AM.

[sunfiregod]

Along with your grape seed you should take resveratrol or milk thistel or protandim or longivinex and alpha lipoic acid for more brain protection.
You also need more antioxidant supplements.Curcumin Longa and coQ10 will do the trick. Selenium with a,c,e and d is good to, its your choice.
Mabey some Dna/Rna tabs or Spirulina for protine and b12.

[edward]

Seems like an awful lot of Rhodiola per day (1.5-2g). I would take your Taurine at night, it actually is a relaxing supplement not an energizing one, its inclusion in energy drinks was a mistep. Other than that it looks like a pretty good program. You might want to try Olive Leaf, I am very big on it these days, great for energy, mood and the immune system all in one, it can be had in semi-bulk powder form fairly cheaply. You might also try cissus for joint and tendon issues, for me msm/glucosamine were a waste of money in that area. I also second the recommendations for resveratrol, milk thistle and curcumin. Acetyl l-carnitine and lipoic acid are also a good combo. If you are on a budget try to take only bulk or semi-bulk powders accept for a multi and fish oil. Even one preformulated supplement really eats up your budget.

edit: By the way, I doubt if creatine ethyl ester is doing much for you that cannot be had by dirt cheap bulk creatine monohydrate... Also try to eat something for breakfast even if its a whey protein shake with some berries or greens in it maybe some coconut oil or if you can tolerate it olive oil also thrown in.

Edited by edward, 22 December 2008 - 10:46 PM.

[ajnast4r]

youre taking way way too much rhodiola... if you need that to feel an effect you need to switch brands. good rhodiola has a very perceptible effect in the 100-200mg range

also, drop the creatine ethyl ester... its possibly unsafe and degrades extremely fast into creatinine. use a micronized creatine monohydrate... optimum sells micronized crea-pure for VERY cheap. also at your weight you dont need more than 5g/day total.


ip6 (phytic acid) chelates all minerals, not just iron. not a good idea imo... you're better off donating blood or just cutting back on your meat consumption. 1.8-2g/kg/bw is the upper limit where increased protein synthesis stops... no need to go nuts with protein for bodybuilding purposes.

Edited by ajnast4r, 23 December 2008 - 02:42 AM.

[sunfiregod]

Leave the Rhodiola in play, work out everyday as it builds lean muscle mass and it reverses macular degeneration!.. And if you take it with large dose's of spirulina and work out, you get a timeless SwampThing like body. The Calcium Spirulite is fuzed faster when you take Rhodiola and internal calcium blotching is reduced as well with elderly..

Edited by sunfiregod, 23 December 2008 - 03:33 AM.

[Sillewater]

Thanks for the help. I will take less rhodiola as it does seem too much, and i will change the CEE to the micronized monohydrate. Some of my friends take CEE and it doesn't do any harm, but it is quite expensive. How exactly does it cause damage? Is it overloading the kidneys with creatinine?

In terms of the antioxidants, such as milk thistle, green tea, bacopa, curcumin, that combination is what is found in Protandim right? On my next order I will put something like that together.

The IP6, Michael takes IP6 so I thought it would be ok, and I have done some research on the forum. Wouldn't it be ok if I take IP6 at night or something.

In terms of the ALA and ALCAR, I plan to stay away from ALA as some of the research papers I have read says it counters the benefits of exercise to longevity, and ALCAR causes the neuronal membrane to be more polarizable producing more free radicals.

[sunfiregod]

Protandim Ingredients:
Supplement Facts
Serving Size 1 Caplet
Servings Per Container 30
Amount Per Serving % DV
Protandim Proprietary Blend 675.00 mg
Milk Thistle Extract (Silybum marianum) (seed)
Bacopa Extract (Bacopa monnieri) (aerial part)
Ashwagandha (Withania somnifera)(root)
Green Tea Leaf Extract (Camellia sinensis)
Turmeric Extract (curcuma longa)(rhizome)

[Sillewater]

Could I get some more critique please, forgot to mention that in my main post.

Also, could someone mention some of the benefits of lecithin intake besides it being a choline source.

[rwac]

Could I get some more critique please, forgot to mention that in my main post.

Also, could someone mention some of the benefits of lecithin intake besides it being a choline source.

Curious here. How did your Rhodiola intake get so high ?
Did it stop working so you bumped the dosage up ?
perhaps you need a break from the rhodiola, before it stops working completely.

What kind of lecithin do you use ?
I believe lecithin == phosphatidylcholine

Edited by rwac, 03 January 2009 - 12:32 AM.

[Sillewater]

I have not taken Rhodiola, its one of the supplements I'm going to start when I get back to school. I got that number from some of the people's regimen on the forum. I guess since I have not taken it before, I will start with a lower dosage.

The milk thistle I bought for some more antioxidant effects.

I already have the IP6, so I will be taking it sparingly, maybe 4 times a week. I do donate blood, but with all the dark chocolate, and many other things that have iron in it that I eat, I think it is a good idea.

In terms of ALA/ALCAR, I thought the oxidative stress induced by exercise upregulates the bodies antioxidant network. If ALA is used, won't that prevent the body from detecting the oxidative stress. The thing with ALCAR is that is causes more oxidative stress, ALA is supposed to make up for it, but I'll avoid it for now, until there's more evidence of it being effective in non-diabetic and non-obese individuals.

[EmbraceUnity]

Your age, height, and weight are almost identical to mine, so I am very interested in your thoughts. How is bacopa working out? Do you feel anything that you think is specifically attributable to it?

Most people around here don't seem to think highly of Inositol hexaphosphate, nor niacinamide. They seem to recommend nicotinic acid.

Other cheap supps you might consider are TMG, Saw Palmetto, Broccoli Extract, and Tryptophan before bed

[Sillewater]

Hi Progressive. The only noticeable effect I have felt is from the Piracetam, Rhodiola, and Melatonin.

In terms of the other things I take, I cannot comment on any tangible benefits. However, my energy levels are higher then usual, and I am usually able to pump out a few extra reps that I have not been able to do before. But that is hard to track, since my workout is based on muscle confusion, and I basically randomly do exercises, targeting most of the muscle groups (the only equipment I have are my body, one 60 pound dumbell, and a pull up bar).

I have been reading about Taurine, and instead of using it in the morning, I am going to use it when I workout based on a post by Funk http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=10793.

But as I said in the previous post, is taking antioxidants around workouts beneficial? Or is taurine, not a direct antioxidant, I don't know, but the performance enhancing effects seems attractive.

The milk thistle, and green tea, I moved to the morning with Vitamin C on an empty stomach. But I read a research paper where it says green tea extracts are better absorbed with juice like orange juice, but I try and stay away from fructose, because AGE production is a danger and fructose seems to be really bad for insulin.

In terms of the fish oil, I have a DHA pill. In Hyperlipids blog about DHA, it seems it doesn't oxidize as much as EPA. But PUFA in general I try and keep low, some days I eat nuts and stuff with Omega 6, so I take the fish oil at night with some Gamma E. I also take in some maldextrin at night before sleep, makes me sleep better, and may help support brain structures. On the Mind and Muscle forum there's a small post about brain building, which makes sense, but I'll have to do more research.

The thing I am most afraid of is AGE's in food. But I have not read much on how to avoid it other than low temperature cooking, less protein and less fat. I like my high fat, moderate protein low carb diet right now as I feel better so not changing that anytime soon. I am only 21, so maybe in the near future AGE cross-link breakers will be produced (metformin??). I would buy some metformin, but at my age I do not want to mess with my testosterone.

The only thing with L-theanine, and L-taurine supplementation is, I don't quite know fully how it affects neurotransmitters and hormones yet, so I cycle these two every once in a while.

[EmbraceUnity]

Hi Progressive. The only noticeable effect I have felt is from the Piracetam, Rhodiola, and Melatonin.

In terms of the other things I take, I cannot comment on any tangible benefits. However, my energy levels are higher then usual, and I am usually able to pump out a few extra reps that I have not been able to do before. But that is hard to track, since my workout is based on muscle confusion, and I basically randomly do exercises, targeting most of the muscle groups (the only equipment I have are my body, one 60 pound dumbell, and a pull up bar).

I have been reading about Taurine, and instead of using it in the morning, I am going to use it when I workout based on a post by Funk http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=10793.

But as I said in the previous post, is taking antioxidants around workouts beneficial? Or is taurine, not a direct antioxidant, I don't know, but the performance enhancing effects seems attractive.

The milk thistle, and green tea, I moved to the morning with Vitamin C on an empty stomach. But I read a research paper where it says green tea extracts are better absorbed with juice like orange juice, but I try and stay away from fructose, because AGE production is a danger and fructose seems to be really bad for insulin.

In terms of the fish oil, I have a DHA pill. In Hyperlipids blog about DHA, it seems it doesn't oxidize as much as EPA. But PUFA in general I try and keep low, some days I eat nuts and stuff with Omega 6, so I take the fish oil at night with some Gamma E. I also take in some maldextrin at night before sleep, makes me sleep better, and may help support brain structures. On the Mind and Muscle forum there's a small post about brain building, which makes sense, but I'll have to do more research.

The thing I am most afraid of is AGE's in food. But I have not read much on how to avoid it other than low temperature cooking, less protein and less fat. I like my high fat, moderate protein low carb diet right now as I feel better so not changing that anytime soon. I am only 21, so maybe in the near future AGE cross-link breakers will be produced (metformin??). I would buy some metformin, but at my age I do not want to mess with my testosterone.

The only thing with L-theanine, and L-taurine supplementation is, I don't quite know fully how it affects neurotransmitters and hormones yet, so I cycle these two every once in a while.

Taking antioxidants around workouts is just fine. I know that inflammation can lead to muscle hypertrophy, which is why they do not recommend NSAIDs after workouts. Yet, antioxidants are more helpful to the workout than harmful to hypertrophy, in my opinion. There have been studies showing antioxidants like resveratrol and astaxanthin really help exercise in mice, and it seems to have a very positive effect on my workouts. Granted, I'm not really trying to become huge or anything. Besides, even if I wanted to, I'm too ectomorphish to pull it off.

As for exogenous AGEs, I wouldn't obsess over it since the vast quantity of AGEs are actually endogenous. Taking AGE breakers has a much higher marginal utility than overly obsessing about AGEs in food (though you certainly want to avoid the worst offenders like deep-fried foods) They found that vegans with low AGE diets actually have higher AGE counts than normal meat eaters because they don't get carnosine and so forth. As a vegetarian and aspiring vegan, I make sure to take carnosine... best of both worlds.

Edited by progressive, 07 January 2009 - 11:30 PM.

[Sillewater]

Hi Progressive. The only noticeable effect I have felt is from the Piracetam, Rhodiola, and Melatonin.

In terms of the other things I take, I cannot comment on any tangible benefits. However, my energy levels are higher then usual, and I am usually able to pump out a few extra reps that I have not been able to do before. But that is hard to track, since my workout is based on muscle confusion, and I basically randomly do exercises, targeting most of the muscle groups (the only equipment I have are my body, one 60 pound dumbell, and a pull up bar).

I have been reading about Taurine, and instead of using it in the morning, I am going to use it when I workout based on a post by Funk http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=10793.

But as I said in the previous post, is taking antioxidants around workouts beneficial? Or is taurine, not a direct antioxidant, I don't know, but the performance enhancing effects seems attractive.

The milk thistle, and green tea, I moved to the morning with Vitamin C on an empty stomach. But I read a research paper where it says green tea extracts are better absorbed with juice like orange juice, but I try and stay away from fructose, because AGE production is a danger and fructose seems to be really bad for insulin.

In terms of the fish oil, I have a DHA pill. In Hyperlipids blog about DHA, it seems it doesn't oxidize as much as EPA. But PUFA in general I try and keep low, some days I eat nuts and stuff with Omega 6, so I take the fish oil at night with some Gamma E. I also take in some maldextrin at night before sleep, makes me sleep better, and may help support brain structures. On the Mind and Muscle forum there's a small post about brain building, which makes sense, but I'll have to do more research.

The thing I am most afraid of is AGE's in food. But I have not read much on how to avoid it other than low temperature cooking, less protein and less fat. I like my high fat, moderate protein low carb diet right now as I feel better so not changing that anytime soon. I am only 21, so maybe in the near future AGE cross-link breakers will be produced (metformin??). I would buy some metformin, but at my age I do not want to mess with my testosterone.

The only thing with L-theanine, and L-taurine supplementation is, I don't quite know fully how it affects neurotransmitters and hormones yet, so I cycle these two every once in a while.

Taking antioxidants around workouts is just fine. I know that inflammation can lead to muscle hypertrophy, which is why they do not recommend NSAIDs after workouts. Yet, antioxidants are more helpful to the workout than harmful to hypertrophy, in my opinion. There have been studies showing antioxidants like resveratrol and astaxanthin really help exercise in mice, and it seems to have a very positive effect on my workouts. Granted, I'm not really trying to become huge or anything. Besides, even if I wanted to, I'm too ectomorphish to pull it off.

As for exogenous AGEs, I wouldn't obsess over it since the vast quantity of AGEs are actually endogenous. Taking AGE breakers has a much higher marginal utility than overly obsessing about AGEs in food (though you certainly want to avoid the worst offenders like deep-fried foods) They found that vegans with low AGE diets actually have higher AGE counts than normal meat eaters because they don't get carnosine and so forth. As a vegetarian and aspiring vegan, I make sure to take carnosine... best of both worlds.

Sorry haven't posted in a while, on vacation.

So are you saying that taking anti-oxidants such as vitamin C, alpha lipoic acid, NAC, green tea extract and stuff like that around workouts has no adverse effects in the long term? I have read that many of the adapatation that our body experiences during exercises is because of the damage that is induced by the free radicals produced during exercise. If anti-oxidants such as Vitamin C are taken around exercise time, those ROS will be gobbled up, and your body will not detect the damage that has occured.

http://www.ingentaco...000007/art00010

this review article talks about the adaptations that occur, I do not have full access.

http://www.nature.co...sc2008125a.html

here is an article about how exercise can induce healing in spinal cord injured rats

So I will continue to avoid anti-oxidants on the days I work out.

[Dmitri]

Hi Progressive. The only noticeable effect I have felt is from the Piracetam, Rhodiola, and Melatonin.

In terms of the other things I take, I cannot comment on any tangible benefits. However, my energy levels are higher then usual, and I am usually able to pump out a few extra reps that I have not been able to do before. But that is hard to track, since my workout is based on muscle confusion, and I basically randomly do exercises, targeting most of the muscle groups (the only equipment I have are my body, one 60 pound dumbell, and a pull up bar).

I have been reading about Taurine, and instead of using it in the morning, I am going to use it when I workout based on a post by Funk http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=10793.

But as I said in the previous post, is taking antioxidants around workouts beneficial? Or is taurine, not a direct antioxidant, I don't know, but the performance enhancing effects seems attractive.

The milk thistle, and green tea, I moved to the morning with Vitamin C on an empty stomach. But I read a research paper where it says green tea extracts are better absorbed with juice like orange juice, but I try and stay away from fructose, because AGE production is a danger and fructose seems to be really bad for insulin.

In terms of the fish oil, I have a DHA pill. In Hyperlipids blog about DHA, it seems it doesn't oxidize as much as EPA. But PUFA in general I try and keep low, some days I eat nuts and stuff with Omega 6, so I take the fish oil at night with some Gamma E. I also take in some maldextrin at night before sleep, makes me sleep better, and may help support brain structures. On the Mind and Muscle forum there's a small post about brain building, which makes sense, but I'll have to do more research.

The thing I am most afraid of is AGE's in food. But I have not read much on how to avoid it other than low temperature cooking, less protein and less fat. I like my high fat, moderate protein low carb diet right now as I feel better so not changing that anytime soon. I am only 21, so maybe in the near future AGE cross-link breakers will be produced (metformin??). I would buy some metformin, but at my age I do not want to mess with my testosterone.

The only thing with L-theanine, and L-taurine supplementation is, I don't quite know fully how it affects neurotransmitters and hormones yet, so I cycle these two every once in a while.

Taking antioxidants around workouts is just fine. I know that inflammation can lead to muscle hypertrophy, which is why they do not recommend NSAIDs after workouts. Yet, antioxidants are more helpful to the workout than harmful to hypertrophy, in my opinion. There have been studies showing antioxidants like resveratrol and astaxanthin really help exercise in mice, and it seems to have a very positive effect on my workouts. Granted, I'm not really trying to become huge or anything. Besides, even if I wanted to, I'm too ectomorphish to pull it off.

Not all antioxidants seem to be helpful though. I few weeks ago there were posts that showed Vitamin E nullified the benefits of exercise if you took it after a workout. I believe there are similar studies on Vitamin C (posted on the "How much Vitamin C do you take" thread). I suppose RSV is ok if there are studies that show benefits with exercise but you should be careful with others such as C and E. I drink green tea and take my mult with antioxidants in the morning and I exercise 8-10 hours later to be on the safe side.

Edited by Dmitri, 12 January 2009 - 10:44 PM.

[Dmitri]

Tocopherol Gamma E -- 300mg of gamma
Vitamin K2 -- once a week

Why do you take K-2 only once a week? I recently bought a 100 mcg K2 supplement which also contains D3 (400 IU), Calcium (77 mg) and Natto extract (100 mg) not sure what the natto is for though. Anyway, is there something you know about K2 that I should know about? Should I only take it once a week as well? I bought it since my multi did not contain Vit. K and the cron-o-meter shows me that I don’t get enough from my diet.

Also, according to Dr. Andreas Papas in order to get the full benefits of Vitamin E you need to take a gel cap that contains all 8 forms (tocopherols and tocotrienols). Does your E supplement contain all 8?

[Sillewater]

Tocopherol Gamma E -- 300mg of gamma
Vitamin K2 -- once a week

Why do you take K-2 only once a week? I recently bought a 100 mcg K2 supplement which also contains D3 (400 IU), Calcium (77 mg) and Natto extract (100 mg) not sure what the natto is for though. Anyway, is there something you know about K2 that I should know about? Should I only take it once a week as well? I bought it since my multi did not contain Vit. K and the cron-o-meter shows me that I don’t get enough from my diet.

Also, according to Dr. Andreas Papas in order to get the full benefits of Vitamin E you need to take a gel cap that contains all 8 forms (tocopherols and tocotrienols). Does your E supplement contain all 8?

I only take K-2 once a week, because it is quite an expensive vitamin, and I try to get my fat soluble vitamins in food, (I eat organic beef liver 3 times a week).

Could you supply the link to that paper. My gel cap only contain the 4 tocopherols. Tocotrienols are quite expensive too. But maybe I will think about it.

[FunkOdyssey]

Just a quick comment, it looks like you're taking 45mg of zinc daily without any supplemental copper, and this may induce a copper deficiency.

[Dmitri]

Tocopherol Gamma E -- 300mg of gamma
Vitamin K2 -- once a week

Why do you take K-2 only once a week? I recently bought a 100 mcg K2 supplement which also contains D3 (400 IU), Calcium (77 mg) and Natto extract (100 mg) not sure what the natto is for though. Anyway, is there something you know about K2 that I should know about? Should I only take it once a week as well? I bought it since my multi did not contain Vit. K and the cron-o-meter shows me that I don't get enough from my diet.

Also, according to Dr. Andreas Papas in order to get the full benefits of Vitamin E you need to take a gel cap that contains all 8 forms (tocopherols and tocotrienols). Does your E supplement contain all 8?

I only take K-2 once a week, because it is quite an expensive vitamin, and I try to get my fat soluble vitamins in food, (I eat organic beef liver 3 times a week).

Could you supply the link to that paper. My gel cap only contain the 4 tocopherols. Tocotrienols are quite expensive too. But maybe I will think about it.

It's not a paper, Dr. Andreas wrote a book called The Vitamin E Factor, according to him each form has it's own use.

According to the book:

a) tocotrienols "slow down the activity of a liver enzyme that plays a key role in the synthesis of cholesterol. Tocopherols have no such effect!" (pg 38).

The sentence doesn't give much detail but that's because it's from the first few chapters that summarize some studies that will be discussed later chapters. If you want I can post more?

b) the paper below mentions that too much alpha tocopherol can deplete gamma:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11722951

Delta-tocotrienol has anticancer properties:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

c) Anyway, Jarrow Formulas has their FamilE which contains all 8 forms and it's only $13.72 for a two month supply on Iherb.

[Sillewater]

Just a quick comment, it looks like you're taking 45mg of zinc daily without any supplemental copper, and this may induce a copper deficiency.

Thanks Funk for the warning. How much copper do you think I should be taking? From what I have read I should be taking 1/10th the dose of the zinc I am taking. Maybe I should just take the zinc every day I do strength training (3 or 4 times a week). The RDA is also like 10mg/d according to the paper and I eat a lot of red meat and such. The only copper source I see is liver, and oysters. So should I be supplementing with 2-3mg of copper everytime I take the Zinc?

Thanks Dmitri for the info. I didn't know that all 8 forms were necessary to show the full effect. If the tocotrienols slow down cholesterol production, would that affect testosterone levels? More info please.

[Dmitri]

Just a quick comment, it looks like you're taking 45mg of zinc daily without any supplemental copper, and this may induce a copper deficiency.

Thanks Funk for the warning. How much copper do you think I should be taking? From what I have read I should be taking 1/10th the dose of the zinc I am taking. Maybe I should just take the zinc every day I do strength training (3 or 4 times a week). The RDA is also like 10mg/d according to the paper and I eat a lot of red meat and such. The only copper source I see is liver, and oysters. So should I be supplementing with 2-3mg of copper everytime I take the Zinc?

Thanks Dmitri for the info. I didn't know that all 8 forms were necessary to show the full effect. If the tocotrienols slow down cholesterol production, would that affect testosterone levels? More info please.

I'm not sure about testosterone levels, but I did find this info on tocotrienol.org : http://www.tocotrien...ex/news/73.html

(though they're selling a product so who knows how truthful their info is):



Toco-8 is a pure tocotrienol powdered supplement, marketed to men for hormone optimizing effects, with the proven benefit of hair loss protection. Research with animals and humans show that tocotrienols can support testosterone production by increasing production of luteinizing hormone (LH) from the brain. LH is the hormone that signals testosterone production from the male testes. Tocotrienols have also been found to increase testicular sensitivity the effects of LH, thus increasing the testosterone response from LH.

[rwac]

Just a quick comment, it looks like you're taking 45mg of zinc daily without any supplemental copper, and this may induce a copper deficiency.

So should I be supplementing with 2-3mg of copper everytime I take the Zinc?

You should be supplementing 2-4mg of copper at a different time than the zinc.
I believe zinc and copper interfere with each other's absorption.

[Sillewater]

Just a quick comment, it looks like you're taking 45mg of zinc daily without any supplemental copper, and this may induce a copper deficiency.

Thanks Funk for the warning. How much copper do you think I should be taking? From what I have read I should be taking 1/10th the dose of the zinc I am taking. Maybe I should just take the zinc every day I do strength training (3 or 4 times a week). The RDA is also like 10mg/d according to the paper and I eat a lot of red meat and such. The only copper source I see is liver, and oysters. So should I be supplementing with 2-3mg of copper everytime I take the Zinc?

Thanks Dmitri for the info. I didn't know that all 8 forms were necessary to show the full effect. If the tocotrienols slow down cholesterol production, would that affect testosterone levels? More info please.

I'm not sure about testosterone levels, but I did find this info on tocotrienol.org : http://www.tocotrien...ex/news/73.html

(though they're selling a product so who knows how truthful their info is):



Toco-8 is a pure tocotrienol powdered supplement, marketed to men for hormone optimizing effects, with the proven benefit of hair loss protection. Research with animals and humans show that tocotrienols can support testosterone production by increasing production of luteinizing hormone (LH) from the brain. LH is the hormone that signals testosterone production from the male testes. Tocotrienols have also been found to increase testicular sensitivity the effects of LH, thus increasing the testosterone response from LH.

Tocotrienols: Vitamin E beyond tocopherols.

Sen CK, Khanna S, Roy S.
Department of Surgery, Davis Heart and Lung Research Institute, The Ohio State University Medical Center, Columbus, Ohio 43210, USA. chandan.sen@osumc.edu
In nature, eight substances have been found to have vitamin E activity: alpha-, beta-, gamma- and delta-tocopherol; and alpha-, beta-, gamma- and delta-tocotrienol. Yet, of all papers on vitamin E listed in PubMed less than 1% relate to tocotrienols. The abundance of alpha-tocopherol in the human body and the comparable efficiency of all vitamin E molecules as antioxidants, led biologists to neglect the non-tocopherol vitamin E molecules as topics for basic and clinical research. Recent developments warrant a serious reconsideration of this conventional wisdom. Tocotrienols possess powerful neuroprotective, anti-cancer and cholesterol lowering properties that are often not exhibited by tocopherols. Current developments in vitamin E research clearly indicate that members of the vitamin E family are not redundant with respect to their biological functions. alpha-Tocotrienol, gamma-tocopherol, and delta-tocotrienol have emerged as vitamin E molecules with functions in health and disease that are clearly distinct from that of alpha-tocopherol. At nanomolar concentration, alpha-tocotrienol, not alpha-tocopherol, prevents neurodegeneration. On a concentration basis, this finding represents the most potent of all biological functions exhibited by any natural vitamin E molecule. An expanding body of evidence support that members of the vitamin E family are functionally unique. In recognition of this fact, title claims in manuscripts should be limited to the specific form of vitamin E studied. For example, evidence for toxicity of a specific form of tocopherol in excess may not be used to conclude that high-dosage "vitamin E" supplementation may increase all-cause mortality. Such conclusion incorrectly implies that tocotrienols are toxic as well under conditions where tocotrienols were not even considered. The current state of knowledge warrants strategic investment into the lesser known forms of vitamin E. This will enable prudent selection of the appropriate vitamin E molecule for studies addressing a specific need.
PMID: 16458936 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Well it does seem that I am missing out on a lot of the benefits of Tocotrienols. On my next order I should get the FamilE instead of GammaE.

Rwac, thanks, didn't know they interfered.

[Dmitri]

Just a quick comment, it looks like you're taking 45mg of zinc daily without any supplemental copper, and this may induce a copper deficiency.

Thanks Funk for the warning. How much copper do you think I should be taking? From what I have read I should be taking 1/10th the dose of the zinc I am taking. Maybe I should just take the zinc every day I do strength training (3 or 4 times a week). The RDA is also like 10mg/d according to the paper and I eat a lot of red meat and such. The only copper source I see is liver, and oysters. So should I be supplementing with 2-3mg of copper everytime I take the Zinc?

Thanks Dmitri for the info. I didn't know that all 8 forms were necessary to show the full effect. If the tocotrienols slow down cholesterol production, would that affect testosterone levels? More info please.

I'm not sure about testosterone levels, but I did find this info on tocotrienol.org : http://www.tocotrien...ex/news/73.html

(though they're selling a product so who knows how truthful their info is):

[/size]

[size="2"]Toco-8 is a pure tocotrienol powdered supplement, marketed to men for hormone optimizing effects, with the proven benefit of hair loss protection. Research with animals and humans show that tocotrienols can support testosterone production by increasing production of luteinizing hormone (LH) from the brain. LH is the hormone that signals testosterone production from the male testes. Tocotrienols have also been found to increase testicular sensitivity the effects of LH, thus increasing the testosterone response from LH.

Tocotrienols: Vitamin E beyond tocopherols.

Sen CK, Khanna S, Roy S.
Department of Surgery, Davis Heart and Lung Research Institute, The Ohio State University Medical Center, Columbus, Ohio 43210, USA. chandan.sen@osumc.edu
In nature, eight substances have been found to have vitamin E activity: alpha-, beta-, gamma- and delta-tocopherol; and alpha-, beta-, gamma- and delta-tocotrienol. Yet, of all papers on vitamin E listed in PubMed less than 1% relate to tocotrienols. The abundance of alpha-tocopherol in the human body and the comparable efficiency of all vitamin E molecules as antioxidants, led biologists to neglect the non-tocopherol vitamin E molecules as topics for basic and clinical research. Recent developments warrant a serious reconsideration of this conventional wisdom. Tocotrienols possess powerful neuroprotective, anti-cancer and cholesterol lowering properties that are often not exhibited by tocopherols. Current developments in vitamin E research clearly indicate that members of the vitamin E family are not redundant with respect to their biological functions. alpha-Tocotrienol, gamma-tocopherol, and delta-tocotrienol have emerged as vitamin E molecules with functions in health and disease that are clearly distinct from that of alpha-tocopherol. At nanomolar concentration, alpha-tocotrienol, not alpha-tocopherol, prevents neurodegeneration. On a concentration basis, this finding represents the most potent of all biological functions exhibited by any natural vitamin E molecule. An expanding body of evidence support that members of the vitamin E family are functionally unique. In recognition of this fact, title claims in manuscripts should be limited to the specific form of vitamin E studied. For example, evidence for toxicity of a specific form of tocopherol in excess may not be used to conclude that high-dosage "vitamin E" supplementation may increase all-cause mortality. Such conclusion incorrectly implies that tocotrienols are toxic as well under conditions where tocotrienols were not even considered. The current state of knowledge warrants strategic investment into the lesser known forms of vitamin E. This will enable prudent selection of the appropriate vitamin E molecule for studies addressing a specific need.
PMID: 16458936 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Well it does seem that I am missing out on a lot of the benefits of Tocotrienols. On my next order I should get the FamilE instead of GammaE.

Rwac, thanks, didn't know they interfered.

I'm glad I was able to help you. I noticed you don't take a multi-vitamin/mineral supplement is your limited budget the reason?

[Sillewater]

Yea from most of the stuff I have read on this forum, a good multivitamin is quite expensive. So for my next order I am planning on putting together a "multivitamin" depending on my diet, so I can alter it everyday, depending on what I eat.

I also added 1000mg of time released Vitamin C that I take before bed, so it doesn't interfere with the times I workout. Is 1000mg too much. I didn't buy it, it was given to me by someone moving out of the dorm.

[bgwithadd]

Seems like an awful lot of Rhodiola per day (1.5-2g). I would take your Taurine at night, it actually is a relaxing supplement not an energizing one, its inclusion in energy drinks was a mistep.

It's not a mistake. It's in there so you can take 900mg of caffeine without falling to the ground twitching. It is believed to be a neuroprotectant as well helping regulate magnesium, which is good when stimming.

The downside is that people sucking redbulls can take such huge caffeine doses they drop dead from heat exhaustion if they push themselves too hard.

[Dmitri]

Yea from most of the stuff I have read on this forum, a good multivitamin is quite expensive. So for my next order I am planning on putting together a "multivitamin" depending on my diet, so I can alter it everyday, depending on what I eat.

I also added 1000mg of time released Vitamin C that I take before bed, so it doesn't interfere with the times I workout. Is 1000mg too much. I didn't buy it, it was given to me by someone moving out of the dorm.

I haven't been able to find a good multi that satisfies me either. All the brands that are supposed to be great on iherb or vitacost have mega doses of one form of Vitamin E (200-400 IU). Those that don't have the E megadose have iron in them or require several pills (4-6 pills) a day which I hate. AOR seems to be the best, but it's very expensive and 3 pills a day. I don't understand why they can't make a good multi that requires one pill a day (I currently use GNC multi-powder)?

As for time released Vitamin C, a member mentioned the following on the "How many Vitamin C do you take" thread:

Taking vitamin C with food enhances the absorption of iron from food into your body. For this reason alone, I would never take a sustained release vitamin C unless I were a female still having periods. Yet, I am a man, and a man shouldn't take a sustained release C... Nuff said.

another person replied with:

I agree about the iron thing, but depending on how long it stays in your system, it might not be a bad thing to take it at night.

None of the experts on C replied regarding the issue, so I wouldn't know what to tell you.

Edited by Dmitri, 15 January 2009 - 07:08 PM.

[nameless]

I haven't been able to find a good multi that satisfies me either. All the brands that are supposed to be great on iherb or vitacost have mega doses of one form of Vitamin E (200-400 IU). Those that don't have the E megadose have iron in them or require several pills (4-6 pills) a day which I hate. AOR seems to be the best, but it's very expensive and 3 pills a day. I don't understand why they can't make a good multi that requires one pill a day (I currently use GNC multi-powder)?

The vitamin E thing about multis annoys me too. Almost every brand out there feels more is better, so you end up with 100-400IU of alpha E only. And the brands that have a semi-acceptable amount (RDA level), tend to be lousy One-A-Day drugstore varieties. They also tend to be high on vitamin A too, for some reason.

I've found that AOR multi-basics is reasonably priced (sorta) if you don't take a full dose. So take 1-2 capsules/daily instead. At 1-2 caps daily, it runs me about $12/month. Another alternative may be a partial dose of AOR core. Or if you prefer powders, just get AOR mix and use a 1/2 dose of that.

You could also just make up your own multi by mixing and matching separate vitamins, but when I last priced that, it cost a lot more than a partial dose of AOR.

Edited by nameless, 15 January 2009 - 07:25 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

The vitamin E thing about multis annoys me too. Almost every brand out there feels more is better, so you end up with 100-400IU of alpha E only. And the brands that have a semi-acceptable amount (RDA level), tend to be lousy One-A-Day drugstore varieties. They also tend to be high on vitamin A too, for some reason.

I've found that AOR multi-basics is reasonably priced (sorta) if you don't take a full dose. So take 1-2 capsules/daily instead. At 1-2 caps daily, it runs me about $12/month. Another alternative may be a partial dose of AOR core. Or if you prefer powders, just get AOR mix and use a 1/2 dose of that.

You could also just make up your own multi by mixing and matching separate vitamins, but when I last priced that, it cost a lot more than a partial dose of AOR.

Here's the regimen I have my fiancee on:

Breakfast-
Carlson B-Compleet w/ Vit C: 1 tablet
Now Multi-Minerals: 1 capsule
Now EGCG (Green Tea Extract): 1 capsule
Jarrow Methyl B-12: 1mg

Dinner-
Carlson B-Compleet w/ Vit C: 1 tablet
Now Multi-Minerals: 1 capsule
Now EGCG (Green Tea Extract): 1 capsule
Now Vitamin D: 2000iu
Now Vitamin A: 10,000iu
Jarrow FamilE: 1 gelcap
LEF Advanced K2 Complex: 1 gelcap

Cost: $28.58 monthly (through iherb). This is what I would take as a "multivitamin" I was age 20 and had nothing wrong with me (she's 21). Maybe another capsule of the Now Multi-Minerals for a larger male, that's all I would change. If someone were scared of preformed Vitamin A or wanted extra carotenoids they could replace/augment that with a Jarrow CarotenALL gelcap, monthly cost would then be $35.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 15 January 2009 - 08:25 PM.

[Dmitri]

I haven't been able to find a good multi that satisfies me either. All the brands that are supposed to be great on iherb or vitacost have mega doses of one form of Vitamin E (200-400 IU). Those that don't have the E megadose have iron in them or require several pills (4-6 pills) a day which I hate. AOR seems to be the best, but it's very expensive and 3 pills a day. I don't understand why they can't make a good multi that requires one pill a day (I currently use GNC multi-powder)?

The vitamin E thing about multis annoys me too. Almost every brand out there feels more is better, so you end up with 100-400IU of alpha E only. And the brands that have a semi-acceptable amount (RDA level), tend to be lousy One-A-Day drugstore varieties. They also tend to be high on vitamin A too, for some reason.

I've found that AOR multi-basics is reasonably priced (sorta) if you don't take a full dose. So take 1-2 capsules/daily instead. At 1-2 caps daily, it runs me about $12/month. Another alternative may be a partial dose of AOR core. Or if you prefer powders, just get AOR mix and use a 1/2 dose of that.

You could also just make up your own multi by mixing and matching separate vitamins, but when I last priced that, it cost a lot more than a partial dose of AOR.

I didn't know AOR had a powder, their relentless website is terrible when to comes to searching for something; I may have missed it so I'll give it another search.