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Dying. Will it make you happier?
#31
Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:21 AM
"Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position that argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Nihilists generally assert that objective morality does not exist, so subsequently there is no objective moral value with which to logically prefer one action over another."
If there is no preferences for life over death, why are there so many self-proclaimed nihilists still around?
Now, I have some sympathy for people who say they're nihilists, because when I was younger I felt that term applied to me as well. Still, when I realized the absurdity of nihilism, I promptly changed my stance
#32
Posted 09 January 2009 - 07:05 PM
For me, having meaning and purpose adds value and happiness to my life. The frailty of life and the unrepeatability of time is what makes it meaningful. When a moment has passed, it is gone forever and you can still die even if you don't age.
I dont have a specific predisposition to wanting to live the things Ive done over again, but if I entered some parallel universe where I got to go back through all the exact same scenerios I guess I couldnt object to that until I tried it out. Also we go through similar situations over and over all the time. It seems to me that its not the frailty and unrepeateability that makes life meaningful, but having any of the five senses and the ability to process their input that makes life meaningful.
Isn't the nihilist position illogical?
"Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position that argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Nihilists generally assert that objective morality does not exist, so subsequently there is no objective moral value with which to logically prefer one action over another."
If there is no preferences for life over death, why are there so many self-proclaimed nihilists still around?
Now, I have some sympathy for people who say they're nihilists, because when I was younger I felt that term applied to me as well. Still, when I realized the absurdity of nihilism, I promptly changed my stance
Are you saying that a true nihilist would do things like walk around town, crossing streets with out looking for cars because they dont care if they get hit one way or the other?
#33
Posted 10 January 2009 - 12:49 AM
Isn't the nihilist position illogical?
"Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position that argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Nihilists generally assert that objective morality does not exist, so subsequently there is no objective moral value with which to logically prefer one action over another."
If there is no preferences for life over death, why are there so many self-proclaimed nihilists still around?
Key word is objective. Plenty of subjective meaning and morality to go around. Nihilists just think that perhaps subjective meaning and morality is all there is. See existentialism too, although they are mainly pussies trying to accommodate and/or deny nihilism.
Emily Dickinson said it best:
That it will never come again
Is what makes life so sweet.
Believing what we don't believe
Does not exhilarate.
That if it be, it be at best
An ablative estate
This instigates an appetite
Precisely opposite.
Philosophers often claim to be poets to avoid confrontation and argument. They sometimes turn out to be prophets.
I'm not sure reality even "is", but I am sure it's neither cruel nor kind.
If you are not sure if something even "is" how can you be on the other side so sure what it is not?
I am not on any side. I am not even sure "I" am. (Read Descartes, in the end the motherfucker relies on the existence of a benevolent god to guarantee his existence ... pussy.)
Edited by fatboy, 10 January 2009 - 01:03 AM.
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#34
Posted 10 January 2009 - 02:02 AM
I'm sure you're referring to your cat (what else?).pussy
I'm a bit confused about this one...motherfucker
Urm, I think you get the drift here. Stop using this kind of language please. Someone might think by mistake you are not referring to your own family or body parts and get offended.
Edited by Brainbox, 10 January 2009 - 02:02 AM.
#35
Posted 10 January 2009 - 03:10 AM
I'm sure you're referring to your cat (what else?).pussy
I'm a bit confused about this one...motherfucker
Urm, I think you get the drift here. Stop using this kind of language please. Someone might think by mistake you are not referring to your own family or body parts and get offended.
Stopped, sorry ... won't happen again. (And I was referring to my own family and body parts, in case that was not clear.)
Edited by fatboy, 10 January 2009 - 03:20 AM.
#36
Posted 10 January 2009 - 03:44 PM
#37
Posted 21 February 2009 - 09:08 PM
#38
Posted 22 February 2009 - 03:56 AM
Nevertheless, I would say that, in a rather parodoxical way, being "able" to die is comforting in a way.This is because living a miserable life for all eternity would simply be a nightmare. I see things in black and white, really. Either absolute victory or complete defeat. In case it comes to the latter, I guess I can die to "live forever", so to speak, even if all that means is that someone wrote a newspaper column about my putting a bullet through my head in some hotel room.
I actually tried doing that once, even though I didn`t have a gun. Someone carried me to the hospital so I`m here to tell the story, though. I have no love for life, but it`s not like I have a love affair with death either.
#39
Posted 22 February 2009 - 06:43 PM
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend.
You could cut ties with all the lies that you've been living in,
And if you do not want to see me again I would understand.
I would understand.
The angry boy, a bit too insane,
Icing over a secret pain.
You know you don't belong.
You're the first to fight, you're way too loud,
You're the flash of light on a burial shroud.
I know something's wrong.
Well everyone I know has got a reason, to say,
Put the past away!
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend,
You could cut ties with all the lies that you've been living in,
And if you do not want to see me again I would understand,
I would understand.
And well he's on the table, and he's gone to code.
And I do not think anyone knows,
What they're doing here.
And your friends have left you, you've been dismissed.
I never thought it would come to this, and I, I want you to know,
Everyone's got to face down the demons.
Maybe today, we can put the past away!
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend.
You could cut ties with all the lies that you've been living in.
And if you do not want to see me again, I would understand,
I would understand,
I would understand...
I would understand
I would understand
Understand
Ya ya ya ya yah
Could you put the past away?!
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend,
I would understand
(I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend,)
I would understand
(I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend,)
And I would understand
(I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend,)
I would understand
(I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend,)
And I would understand
#40 Guest_aidanpryde_*
Posted 22 February 2009 - 08:02 PM
This is because living a miserable life for all eternity would simply be a nightmare.
I think this is a weak argument against living very long or forever. It belongs to the same category like: "what if a dictator could live on for hundreds of years?"
Perhaps we could on this way learn better how to stand up against such people or general injustice instead of waiting for a death to occur and do the work for us.
To do more and not wait for it to happen on its own. To change a miserable life for oneself or other. This is something the humanity would benefit from.
So a much longer life could perhaps lead also to a growing up of humanity. It is more a kind of opportunity than danger.
#41
Posted 22 February 2009 - 08:23 PM
This is because living a miserable life for all eternity would simply be a nightmare.
I think this is a weak argument against living very long or forever. It belongs to the same category like: "what if a dictator could live on for hundreds of years?"
Perhaps we could on this way learn better how to stand up against such people or general injustice instead of waiting for a death to occur and do the work for us.
To do more and not wait for it to happen on its own. To change a miserable life for oneself or other. This is something the humanity would benefit from.
So a much longer life could perhaps lead also to a growing up of humanity. It is more a kind of opportunity than danger.
Exactly
#42
Posted 02 March 2009 - 07:48 PM
For me, having meaning and purpose adds value and happiness to my life. The frailty of life and the unrepeatability of time is what makes it meaningful. When a moment has passed, it is gone forever and you can still die even if you don't age.
The inevitability of death is what zaps meaning from life.
You have 2 years left, then you will die. No loopholes: you will die and that will be the end. How hard do you have to work to enjoy the world, to stay fully engaged, to not give up? It's not easy. How do you do it? You block out thoughts that you're going to die. You pretend death doesn't exist. Life cannot be fully enjoyed in the presence of death.
Will a rose that lives forever smell as sweet? It will be less emotionally complex. But the odors will be sweeter, a purer sweetness.
Edited by imarobot, 02 March 2009 - 08:44 PM.
#43
Posted 02 March 2009 - 08:47 PM
#44
Posted 07 March 2009 - 01:40 AM
I'd rather live meaninglessly.
Me too. Siddhartha Gautama would be proud ... if he would ... which he wouldn't.
#45
Posted 07 March 2009 - 02:11 AM
How does stopping aging, or increasing life spans remove ANY of the UNCERTAINTY of existance?
All it will be is a removal of all the NON Random causes of death due to biological failure.
#46
Posted 07 March 2009 - 02:39 AM
agreed.How does stopping aging, or increasing life spans remove ANY of the UNCERTAINTY of existance?
#47
Posted 07 March 2009 - 04:21 AM
How does stopping aging, or increasing life spans remove ANY of the UNCERTAINTY of existance?
It doesn't. But, as an unintended side-effect, it just might make it more palatable.
#48
Posted 07 March 2009 - 06:40 PM
One doesn't need death to give life meaning. if "knowing each moment could be your last" is what you feel gives meaning, how, in reality will eliminating biological failure change that? The Sun could go Nova tommorrow, the planet could suddenly be destroyed any second by some massive gamma radiation burst heading our way from a million lightyears away, the Moon could suddenly get shoved out of orbit and smash into the earth, a random wandering black hole could come along and suck up our entire solar system...
How does stopping aging, or increasing life spans remove ANY of the UNCERTAINTY of existance?
All it will be is a removal of all the NON Random causes of death due to biological failure.
Good point. Ive been looking for wording to convey this perspective for a while now. Im going to use this.
#49
Posted 07 March 2009 - 10:48 PM
One doesn't need death to give life meaning. if "knowing each moment could be your last" is what you feel gives meaning, how, in reality will eliminating biological failure change that? The Sun could go Nova tommorrow, the planet could suddenly be destroyed any second by some massive gamma radiation burst heading our way from a million lightyears away, the Moon could suddenly get shoved out of orbit and smash into the earth, a random wandering black hole could come along and suck up our entire solar system...
How does stopping aging, or increasing life spans remove ANY of the UNCERTAINTY of existance?
All it will be is a removal of all the NON Random causes of death due to biological failure.
Good point. Ive been looking for wording to convey this perspective for a while now. Im going to use this.
Feel free. I never mind being quoted XD
#50
Posted 08 March 2009 - 06:34 PM
#51
Posted 09 March 2009 - 11:34 PM
Expect dying of a cancer i don't know from what death can free you so make you happier.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/The_Immortal
Living. Are you sure it won't make you sadder?
Read, enjoy. I know I did 30 years ago at the ripe old age of 16. And, wrt Borges, don't stop there.
Edited by fatboy, 10 March 2009 - 12:00 AM.
#52
Posted 10 March 2009 - 07:26 AM
Expect dying of a cancer i don't know from what death can free you so make you happier.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/The_Immortal
Living. Are you sure it won't make you sadder?
Read, enjoy. I know I did 30 years ago at the ripe old age of 16. And, wrt Borges, don't stop there.
Living as a solitary Immortal in a world of mortality would be the worst tragedy imaginable. Your friends growing old and dying, everyone you know dying around you in what seems to you the blink of an eye, death, death, death everywhere you look, with you alone being forever seperate and ever alone. It would be hell.
Living as a Immortal among your fellow Immortals is nowhere near comparable.
To be blunt fatboy, if you hate the idea of living forever, why are you still alive? Could it be that secretly you really don't want to die, but you can't shake your obsession with it? Could it be that you are simply too afraid that immortality won't be possible that you cannot bring yourself to hope it will? Or could you be afraid of being one of those left behind, aging and dying while the immortal young forget about you?
Live is sadness, it is pain, and it is suffering. In the words of the Dread Pirate Robets, "Any one who says differently is selling something."
But life is also joy, and beauty, and love. Light and Darkness, Ying and Yang, Good and Bad. We need them both to be able to experience life fully. If we never cried, we would never learn to smile. If we never lost, we would never appreciate winning.
I have lost loved ones to death, and none of them will ever walk this earth again. I have lost friends. I have lost casual aquaintances. I have seen them suffer, I have seen them go in the blink of an eye. I have watched as alzhimers claimed first my grandparents on my fathers side and then on my mothers. I sit now awaiting the news I know will come at any time that my beloved grandmother, who is even now losing her battle against alzhimers, has finally died. I will never be able to taste my Nanny's chili pie, or shiver at the delightful flavor of my Grandma's MaltChocolate milkshakes. I will never again be able to go fishing with my Uncle Joe, or be able to show Papa and Grandpa how much I've grown as a artist. I will never get to sit and talk with my buddy Walt, or be able to debate politics and world events with my Mother in law. Before long even my Grandmother in law will be gone.
All of these people touched my life in ways I can never repay, and never will be able to, no matter how long I may live. They gave me hope, and love, and kindness, they taught me how to laugh and how to hold my head high and be proud of being myself. They taught me how to live and more importantly, they taught me how to appreciate being alive.
I have enormous reasons to be depressed, and I currently have an appointment to see a doctor due to the severity of my depressions, and the fact that it is often times so severe that suicide seems like the only option. In all likelihood I am soon going to be on medicines to stabilise my severe depressive episodes. But despite the hopelessness and dispair I feel during these times, one thing and one thing alone has kept me from stepping in front of a semi.
And those are the words of my Nanny, my father's mother. "There are always going to be good times and bad times. But no matter what, no matter how bad the bad times are, they won't last forever. Sooner or later, the Sun always comes out of the clouds."
And that wonderful, kind, and loving woman fought death tooth and nail. Three heart attacks, two strokes, and alzhimers couldn't slow her down. She held on for nearly ten years after the doctors said she had a year to live. It took Pnuemonia to finally kill her. Congestive heart failure in her sleep.
In all my family, she's the only one who really understood me. As much as I loved and am sad I will never see all the others I have lost, she is the one I miss most. It is her voice I hear when the darkness in my head is screaming loudest, telling me the Sun always comes out of the clouds.
She survived the Great Depression, and both world wars. She survived an alcoholic and abusive husband, finally getting him to stop drinking and abusing her. She raised seven children, and got to see their children and grandchildren. She celebrated her fiftieth wedding anniversary with over a hundred members of her family attending. She saw the Berlin wall raised, and she got to see it fall. She watched the first man on the moon, and the first shuttle launch. She got to ask who shot JR, as well as wonder who shot JFK. She raised roses and citrus trees and kids with equal kindness and care and grace. And she lived life to the fullest right up to her very last day, and died with a smile.
Did dying give her life meaning? I know for a fact she never thought so. Living was what gave her life meaning. Living and loving and laughing, through good times and bad, through happiness and sadness, living for the simple joy of being alive. She never gave up, and never gave in. She never let life break her and never let it get her down.
Because the Sun always comes out of the clouds.
She was 92 the day she died, and if it had been up to her, she would have lived 90 more, and 90 beyond that, and so on, ad infinitum. She would have laughed and loved and spoiled her great^^^^grand kid rotten when they came to see their Nanny, the women who always had a smile and a special something she would make just for them. And we could sit on her swing under her rose trellis and sip hot lemon tea while we watched the sun come out of the clouds.
#53
Posted 10 March 2009 - 01:57 PM
Now, what's it gonna take to get you to jump on the freedom bandwagon?
#54
Posted 13 March 2009 - 03:10 AM
To be blunt fatboy, if you hate the idea of living forever, why are you still alive?
'Cause I'm trying to live as long as I possibly can. I just don't believe there is such a thing as "forever".
#55
Posted 14 March 2009 - 07:35 PM
#56
Posted 14 March 2009 - 11:52 PM
How can one know for certain of life's intrinsic meaning? Nihilism makes sense from that angle, objective morality and intrinsic meanings are all artifacts that culture produced throughout the ages. This truth though doesn't necessarily mean that one can't have a sense of meaning or a morality that guides them. If anything, it can at times make you more analytical about the paths you choose to follow.
Bingo.
#57
Posted 16 March 2009 - 04:10 AM
How can one know for certain of life's intrinsic meaning? Nihilism makes sense from that angle, objective morality and intrinsic meanings are all artifacts that culture produced throughout the ages. This truth though doesn't necessarily mean that one can't have a sense of meaning or a morality that guides them. If anything, it can at times make you more analytical about the paths you choose to follow.
Bingo.
#58
Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:37 PM
we all have a special relationship with death. i don't want to die, not anytime soon, but no matter how badly you claim to hate it, I think deep down inside, we are intrigued by it, and may actually find comfort in it.
Nietzche "The thought of suicide is a powerful solace, by means of it one gets through many a bad night”
#59
Posted 16 March 2009 - 08:08 PM
may i add that if everyone is immortal, than history would be the most boring subject in the world.
we all have a special relationship with death. i don't want to die, not anytime soon, but no matter how badly you claim to hate it, I think deep down inside, we are intrigued by it, and may actually find comfort in it.
Nietzche "The thought of suicide is a powerful solace, by means of it one gets through many a bad night”
Im abhored by the idea that my chance may be discontinued, my chance to be here as all of this mysterious incredible universe and existence is pioneered. Its not the death that scares me, its the not fulfilling all my goals that sickens me. Even though I most likely will, I dont want to die with out knowing what this place is, how it got here, how we got here, what the nature of infinity is, if there is a god, gods, no gods or something else, etc...
We are like fish in an aquarium. Do we really want to die in this little tank in the corner of a room somewhere? We havent even evolved our arms yet, we havent even begun to scratch the surface of what it means to exist yet.
I can assure you that history will not likely become boring for me at the age of say, 5,000. In fact it seems to me that it will add depth to history, we will then have the time and the technology to examine it more intimately. Such as, famous people might have parts of their lives recorded on virtual cams that we can go and search through. Imagine being able to google and say, watch Nietzche fishing and chatting with some random people about philosophy.
Deep down inside I am anything but intrigued by death.
#60
Posted 17 March 2009 - 12:13 AM
I'll take the reality in which nothing is ever certain, where an infinite universe stretches forever outwards, and where the prospect of newness will draw us farther and farther into the unknown.
You try singing hosannas repeatedly. I bet even the most devoted would find it a trifle boring after just a few hundred repetitions, let alone endless ones.
Every afterlife is simply endless repetitions of the familiar. Even if I went with the fun afterlife of endless virgins to play with while the alcohol flowed in rivers, it would get OLD after enough time.
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