21 replies to this topic

[edward]

Anyone have any figures for the AGE content of whey proteins (various types)?

[CobaltThoriumG]

Anyone have any figures for the AGE content of whey proteins (various types)?

I'm interested in this also. I use several servings of LEF whey isolate daily. I would think that Glanbia's Provon, which is what LEF uses, described as "highly undenatured," would be among the better forms of whey.

[CobaltThoriumG]

Anyone have any figures for the AGE content of whey proteins (various types)?

I'm interested in this also. I use several servings of LEF whey isolate daily. I would think that Glanbia's Provon, which is what LEF uses, described as "highly undenatured," would be among the better forms of whey.

I haven't found anything yet, although the following article, the full text of which I don't have access to, may be helpful:

Title: Indirect determination of Amadori compounds in milk-based products by HPLC/ELSD/UV as an index of protein deterioration.
Personal Authors: Baptista, J. A. B., Carvalho, R. C. B.
Author Affiliation: Centro de Investigação em Produtos Naturais (CIRN), Universidade dos Açores, Rua da Mãe de Deus, 9501 - 855, Ponta Delgada, São Miguel, Açores, Portugal.
Editors: No editors
Document Title: Food Research International

What I have found suggests powdered milk is high in AGEs and that glycation of whey is induced intentionally at times to make commercially desirable products, not necessarily whey protein powders.

I'm considering substituting pasteurized liquid egg whites for half my whey, despite the higher methionine, and perhaps supplementing with a low dose of additional biotin in case the pasteurization does not denature the avidin.

[Skötkonung]

I think it depends on the formulation. Some protein powders have lots of sugar and will result in the formation of AGEs. Whey protein isolate itself doesn't look like it would possess or result in the creation of AGEs.

Check out the manufacturing practices and let me know if you concur:
http://www.bodybuild...-processing.htm

[edward]

These results lead me to believe that the AGE content in pure Whey Protein is no big deal. Its probably lower than that in the infant formula and maybe a little higher than fat free milk and as a source of protein its probably pretty good.


---------------------------------AGE U/Gram--- serving (g)------------AGE/Serving

Milk, Infant Formula, [h4]...........4,900......................30.........................150,000
Milk, Fat Free, --------------...........5......................250........................1,300
Cheese, Cottage, 1% fat [e3]......4,500.....................120........................540,000

reference (very bad AGE result)
Beef, Hamburger, fried, 6 min......26,000....................90.........................2,300,000

Edited by edward, 05 January 2009 - 12:05 AM.

[CobaltThoriumG]

These results lead me to believe that the AGE content in pure Whey Protein is no big deal. Its probably lower than that in the infant formula and maybe a little higher than fat free milk and as a source of protein its probably pretty good.


---------------------------------AGE U/Gram--- serving (g)------------AGE/Serving

Milk, Infant Formula, [h4]...........4,900......................30.........................150,000
Milk, Fat Free, --------------...........5......................250........................1,300
Cheese, Cottage, 1% fat [e3]......4,500.....................120........................540,000

reference (very bad AGE result)
Beef, Hamburger, fried, 6 min......26,000....................90.........................2,300,000

Unlike whey powder, the items you list aren't spray-dried, which probably involves heating and increases AGEs.

[niner]

These results lead me to believe that the AGE content in pure Whey Protein is no big deal. Its probably lower than that in the infant formula and maybe a little higher than fat free milk and as a source of protein its probably pretty good.

---------------------------------AGE U/Gram--- serving (g)------------AGE/Serving

Milk, Infant Formula, [h4]...........4,900......................30.........................150,000
Milk, Fat Free, --------------...........5......................250........................1,300
Cheese, Cottage, 1% fat [e3]......4,500.....................120........................540,000

reference (very bad AGE result)
Beef, Hamburger, fried, 6 min......26,000....................90.........................2,300,000

Unlike whey powder, the items you list aren't spray-dried, which probably involves heating and increases AGEs.

Spray drying could involve some heat, although it wouldn't necessarily have to be that hot, nor would it need to be heated for very long. I suppose the infant formula in the list above is ultrapasteurized, but what's up with cottage cheese? It has a quarter of the ages of hamburger that's been fried for 6 minutes? (Which sounds like a burned hamburger, IMHO...) Maybe there's something I don't understand about cottage cheese production. It doesn't look like something that would have a lot of AGEs.

[CobaltThoriumG]

These results lead me to believe that the AGE content in pure Whey Protein is no big deal. Its probably lower than that in the infant formula and maybe a little higher than fat free milk and as a source of protein its probably pretty good.

---------------------------------AGE U/Gram--- serving (g)------------AGE/Serving

Milk, Infant Formula, [h4]...........4,900......................30.........................150,000
Milk, Fat Free, --------------...........5......................250........................1,300
Cheese, Cottage, 1% fat [e3]......4,500.....................120........................540,000

reference (very bad AGE result)
Beef, Hamburger, fried, 6 min......26,000....................90.........................2,300,000

Unlike whey powder, the items you list aren't spray-dried, which probably involves heating and increases AGEs.

Spray drying could involve some heat, although it wouldn't necessarily have to be that hot, nor would it need to be heated for very long. I suppose the infant formula in the list above is ultrapasteurized, but what's up with cottage cheese? It has a quarter of the ages of hamburger that's been fried for 6 minutes? (Which sounds like a burned hamburger, IMHO...) Maybe there's something I don't understand about cottage cheese production. It doesn't look like something that would have a lot of AGEs.

[url="http://<a%20href="http://www.andersonclan.us/andersonclan_top/ages_numeric_list.htm"%20target="_blank">http://www.andersonc...htm</a>"]Cheese is high in AGEs for some reason[/url], and the more fat in the cheese, the more AGE, it looks like.

[edward]

Yeah Cheese is horrible from an AGE perspective and the higher fat the worse in AGE content. The funny thing is my previous low fat, low meat, basically no cheese diet was probably pretty low in AGEs and methionine as well... my energy levels were horrible though.... I am still trying to figure out what the best human diet is. Due to the results of methionine restriction and the effect of dietary AGEs on calorie restricted animals I am not so sure the high meat, high fat, low carb, paleo diet is optimal. It seems to me the research is pointing to a lower fat, lower protein, higher carb, making sure your carbs are low glycemic (insulin, IGF-1, endogenous AGE).

[CobaltThoriumG]

Yeah Cheese is horrible from an AGE perspective and the higher fat the worse in AGE content. The funny thing is my previous low fat, low meat, basically no cheese diet was probably pretty low in AGEs and methionine as well... my energy levels were horrible though.... I am still trying to figure out what the best human diet is. Due to the results of methionine restriction and the effect of dietary AGEs on calorie restricted animals I am not so sure the high meat, high fat, low carb, paleo diet is optimal. It seems to me the research is pointing to a lower fat, lower protein, higher carb, making sure your carbs are low glycemic (insulin, IGF-1, endogenous AGE).

That sounds like a gorilla-type diet where you eat 40 pounds of leaves each day. I hope that's not it, because while I'm committed to being around a while, I don't have the time to do nothing but eat.

[Mind]

Can't remember where I was reading it (somewhere hear in the forums) where someone speculated (or there was some research that supported) that external dietary AGEs do not have a large impact on health, rather endogenous AGEs are what we have to worry about. Similar to how dietary cholesterol is not as important as the endogenous metabolic processes that alter your blood lipid profile (with regards to heart disease).

Anyone remember where to find that discussion?

Also, a person can find sources of protein and fat that do not contain much AGE. A mostly raw whole food diet should be low in AGEs.

[edward]

Can't remember where I was reading it (somewhere hear in the forums) where someone speculated (or there was some research that supported) that external dietary AGEs do not have a large impact on health, rather endogenous AGEs are what we have to worry about. Similar to how dietary cholesterol is not as important as the endogenous metabolic processes that alter your blood lipid profile (with regards to heart disease).

Anyone remember where to find that discussion?

Also, a person can find sources of protein and fat that do not contain much AGE. A mostly raw whole food diet should be low in AGEs.

I wish it were so, and I even believed it for awhile, but the attached study very elegantly says otherwise. The most telling graph is below. Of course the CR mice outlived everyone, but the CR mice whose food had high AGE (same diet as CR but it was heated to produce AGEs) didn't even live as long as the controls. There are other telling graphs such as insulin levels, circulating AGEs, bodyweight etc. etc. that all point to the same conclusion. Dietary AGEs do matter and in a big way.

[Mind]

Thanks for the graph Edward.

Still, raw food (veggies, fruit, fats/oils, meat) would be low in AGEs. I would think a balanced mostly raw food diet would be superior to just gobbling down carbs all day long.

[edward]

Here is the study. I have the full .pdf which I tried to attach but it was too big. If anyone wants it pm me and Ill email it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18599606

[edward]

Ok I shrunk the pdf, attached.

Thanks for the graph Edward.

Still, raw food (veggies, fruit, fats/oils, meat) would be low in AGEs. I would think a balanced mostly raw food diet would be superior to just gobbling down carbs all day long.

The problem with the meat issue is the practicality of the raw factor. Raw meat is just not an option.... Now this is all coming from a dedicated low carb/Paleo dieter. The research (on dietary AGE and Methionine) is just indicating that a higher carb level (offsetting reduced protein, protein sparing etc.) and a more plant based diet may be the best for the long term, furthermore reducing fat in any form that is cooked or used in a high heat process (making cheese for example). Granted for the here and now nothing beats a low carb/paleo to reduce weight and get bloodwork looking good without too much trouble. Granted its harder but the same results can be achieved with a higher carb, lower fat, lower protein diet with some degree of CR even if its just 10%.... I am thinking along the lines of where the research is pointing me, I am still eating low carb paleo at the present moment but I am very seriously considering a switch to a more plant based mostly raw moderate CR diet. Obviously not eating high glycemic cr@p.

Attached Files

•  Calorierestriction__dietaryAGEs_Vlassara2008vvs.pdf   1.48MB   91 downloads

Edited by edward, 05 January 2009 - 11:23 PM.

[JLL]

Damn, coming up with the perfect diet just keeps getting harder. You'd think CR would've compensated for some of the negative effects of consuming AGEs, but apparently not enough.

Raw food eaters in general have more AGEs in their bodies than other people. I think that study has been discussed here before. The authors speculated that it's because of the fructose from eating lots of fruits. So yeah, maybe raw food has some benefits, but exchanging grilled meat for fruit may not be the wise thing to do AGE-wise.

I'm hoping the copious amounts of green tea reduce some of the AGEs I consume.

[Mind]

Well, you could go with limited fruit, mainly berries, or fruit extracts to avoid the sugar (while still getting the nutrients)

[edward]

Damn, coming up with the perfect diet just keeps getting harder. You'd think CR would've compensated for some of the negative effects of consuming AGEs, but apparently not enough.

Raw food eaters in general have more AGEs in their bodies than other people. I think that study has been discussed here before. The authors speculated that it's because of the fructose from eating lots of fruits. So yeah, maybe raw food has some benefits, but exchanging grilled meat for fruit may not be the wise thing to do AGE-wise.

I'm hoping the copious amounts of green tea reduce some of the AGEs I consume.

The study discussed compared typical vegetarians to typical omnivores and the results were increased circulating AGEs in the "typical vegetarians". Many typical vegetarians I know are definitely pudgy around the middle (ie no CR) and showing a reliance on high glycemic carbs which abound in processed "vegetarian" food.

[CobaltThoriumG]

As far as protein, the closest to raw that is safe (aside from sushi if you're into that), and the best, I think, is pasteurized egg white. The AGE tables show that even boiled egg white is not high in AGEs compared to other animal proteins and this is not boiled, just pasteurized.

[Skötkonung]

I have been on the primal blueprints diet (similar to, but not exactly like, the paleolithic regimen) for several years and will probably maintain it even if it does show to contain some AGE content. My reasoning is that compared to a normal westernized diet, it is very low AGE content - particularly if you take care to not overlook cook your meat or vegetables. It is my opinion, that combined with therapeutic intervention through use of benfotiamine, carnosine, and pyridoxamine you are unlikely to be accumulating much AGE related damage. And surely, we are on the precipice of having access to some AGE-crosslink breaking drugs over the next decade with all the attention diabetes is getting in the medical research community.

Besides, have you ever tried to live off raw vegetables and berries? It seems like it would leave very little energy for exercise and may even cause nutritional imbalances. At the end of the day, while we should try to live as healthy as possible, we still have to remember to enjoy ourselves. A life unfulfilled is hardly a life worth living.

[edward]

As far as protein, the closest to raw that is safe (aside from sushi if you're into that), and the best, I think, is pasteurized egg white. The AGE tables show that even boiled egg white is not high in AGEs compared to other animal proteins and this is not boiled, just pasteurized.

As I continue eating paleo (until I make the firm commitment to do CR) I am relying on soft boiled eggs, egg salad, whey protein and a limited amount of boiled meats (boiled for 20 min not the hour long as shown on the age chart) and the fats I am using are olive oil and cocount oil, butter for all its charms is an AGE fest. And alas I must cut out cheese, wow do I love cheese but its bad.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

I've been trying to reduce dietary AGEs for awhile, but being in a family that loves eating out, grilling out, and big desserts makes it hard. As I'm sure any of you trying to eat any type of non-SAD diet can attest.

Restricting dietary AGEs isn't exactly a new idea, but it has received a lot more attention lately. Here is an older article inspired by an earlier Vlassara study LEF May 2003 - Eating Food Cooked At High Temperature Accelerates Aging

My first go at eating a lower AGE diet was similar to what is in this PDF: Mount Sinai School of Medicine - Low AGE Meal Plan Instructions

It still allows too much fructose and galactose, but that's about as far as my family can take. So I'm on my own for anything more.

A few more related links that I'm sure many of you have already seen:

http://andersonclan....op/ages_faq.htm
http://www.life-enha...ate.asp?id=2006
http://www.abc.net.a...007/1969924.htm
http://jerrymondo.tr.../lgev/id15.html
http://www.lef.org/m...rn-Syrup_01.htm
http://www.lef.org/p...prtcl-146.shtml
http://www.niehs.nih...dromelustig.pdf
http://www.enerex.ca...nd_fructose.htm
http://jasn.asnjourn...stract/14/3/728
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pt=AbstractPlus