67 replies to this topic

[sunfiregod]

How much Vitamin A are we taking?

[rwac]

How much Vitamin A are we taking?

You could add a poll. People like voting in polls!

I take 10000 IU

[NDM]

probably the moderators will move this thread in the supplements section...

I take 4000 IU/ day; but only winter time. If I feel a cold/flu/bronchitis coming, I mega-dose 20-30,000 IU/day.

[Dmitri]

probably the moderators will move this thread in the supplements section...

I take 4000 IU/ day; but only winter time. If I feel a cold/flu/bronchitis coming, I mega-dose 20-30,000 IU/day.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002400.htm

"If you get too much vitamin A, you can become sick. Large doses of vitamin A can also cause birth defects. Acute vitamin A poisoning usually occurs when an adult takes several hundred thousand IU. Symptoms of chronic vitamin A poisoning may occur in adults who regularly take more than 25,000 IU a day"

Why take so much Vit A? Why not use Vit C & E for your cold/flu.

[ImmortalGod]

I take 8000 iu daily.

[Dmitri]

I take 5,000 IU from my multi-vitamin; I take the multi 3 days a week though.

[NDM]

Oops, I replied about my intake of vit D when the thread was about A!

But the amounts are somehow similar: I don't take A every day because my bottle is with 25,000IU/softgel...however I do take 1 or 2 every week (for immunity and for beauty: skin & acne)

When I feel a cold/flu/bronchitis approaching, then I take 25,000 IU every day (for 3-4 days).

[RapDawg]

10,800 UI just in supplements, so probably a lot more if you count food.

[pycnogenol]

I take 2500 IU of dry vitamin A [1/2 tablet] (Solgar brand 5000 IU) Monday thru Friday, skipping the weekends.

[balance]

Dmitri,

You should read my posts regarding vitamin A in a similar topic. Do a search. It seems to come up time and time again, people being scared of vitamin A poisoning. While it can occur, it is directly dependent on vitamin D status. High intakes of vitamin d3 make the amount needed for vitamin A toxicity 1000x higher. Also, the birth defects with vitamin A was a synthetic vitamin A drug, this has not been found with natural vitamin A. That said, vitamin A lowers levels of vitamin D, and vitamin D lowers levels of vitamin A. So my prediction is that in many years from now, when everyone has abolished vitamin A containing foods and supplements due to unrealistic fears, and everyone will have increased vitamin D intakes because the RDA will be set at 2000IU (wishful thinking probably...), then we might see increased numbers of vitamin A deficient people again.... Vitamin A is essential... keep that in mind.

[balance]

Forgot to add to my post: That said, I believe that you shouldn't take a high amount of vitamin A, and your vitamin D intake should consist solely of vitamin D3, and should be higher than your vitamin A intake. So maybe something like: 5000IU vitamin D3, and 2000IU natural vitamin A (total supplemental + food intake).

[Dmitri]

Forgot to add to my post: That said, I believe that you shouldn't take a high amount of vitamin A, and your vitamin D intake should consist solely of vitamin D3, and should be higher than your vitamin A intake. So maybe something like: 5000IU vitamin D3, and 2000IU natural vitamin A (total supplemental + food intake).

Multis always have more A then D3 though.

I only take 1,000 IU of D3 gelcaps, 150 IU of D2 from rice milk, 800 IU of D3 from my multi; though it contains 5000 IU of A so perhaps the multi has no effect in regards to A and D since they likely cancel out?

[balance]

Get another multi .

AOR's multi basics barely has any vitamin A. That's the one I use. It will give you more freedom in your vitamin A ratios. I would take more vitamin D3 if I were you. Yet it obviously depends on your level of sun exposure, your body weight, skin color, and absorption. But it seems a softgel vitamin D3 supplement in the range of 2000IU to 10000IU is the way to go, at least for those like me getting basically NO sun exposure. They have found that even children needed 2000IU...

[stephen_b]

Get another multi .

AOR's multi basics barely has any vitamin A.

I don't see that? Multi basics-3 has almost 10,000 IU of beta-carotene.

I'm still not sure what to do about vitamin A. Did anyone read the commentary by Cannell et al titled "Cod Liver Oil, Vitamin A Toxicity, Frequent Respiratory Infections, and the Vitamin D Deficiency Epidemic", available here for $20 US.

StephenB

Edited by stephen_b, 24 December 2008 - 07:02 PM.

[balance]

Vitamin A and beta carotene are two entirely different issues. You will never over-convert beta carotene to vitamin A. Also, it's mixed natural beta carotene along with the others such as cryptoaxanthin. So no smoker-synthetic beta carotene concern.

Actual vitamin A in the multi basics is 150IU...

[Dmitri]

Vitamin A and beta carotene are two entirely different issues. You will never over-convert beta carotene to vitamin A. Also, it's mixed natural beta carotene along with the others such as cryptoaxanthin. So no smoker-synthetic beta carotene concern.

Actual vitamin A in the multi basics is 150IU...

AOR is expensive though. Anyway, what about osteoporosis? Some multis warn you not to take Vit A supps with the multi since studies have shown that too much A can cause osteoporosis.

[balance]

Like I said, read up on the vitamin A & vitamin D interaction. That will give you the best reassurance.

Yes too much vitamin A can cause osteoporosis, but even tiny amounts of vitamin A like 0-5000IU can cause it, IF deficient in vitamin D...

What's more expensive, an AOR multi, or cancer? Anyway, you know that you can always find a solution, there's plenty of multi vitamins out there. And who said you need to take 3 per day? Take 1 capsule daily and it's a lot less expensive.

[Dmitri]

Like I said, read up on the vitamin A & vitamin D interaction. That will give you the best reassurance.

Yes too much vitamin A can cause osteoporosis, but even tiny amounts of vitamin A like 0-5000IU can cause it, IF deficient in vitamin D...

What's more expensive, an AOR multi, or cancer? Anyway, you know that you can always find a solution, there's plenty of multi vitamins out there. And who said you need to take 3 per day? Take 1 capsule daily and it's a lot less expensive.

Well, I'm a college student who only works 2 days a week; I can't afford it at the moment. Also, there’s no need to be so paranoid I’m only 24 and I take other anti-cancer drinks like Green Tea and Coffee and supps such as D3.

[david ellis]

How much Vitamin A are we taking?

None, I take 43 mg of the betacarotenes, lutein, zeaxanthin. And 10,000 iu of Vitamin D3.

Edited to add Vitamin D3 intake, I am curious as to whether I am in the hole or not.

Edited by david ellis, 25 December 2008 - 02:51 AM.

[pycnogenol]

How much Vitamin A are we taking?

None, I take 43 mg of the betacarotenes, lutein, zeaxanthin. And 10,000 iu of Vitamin D3.

Edited to add Vitamin D3 intake, I am curious as to whether I am in the hole or not.

10,000 IU is a fairly high dose of vitamin D3. Do you go by your height, weight and blood tests for the amount you're taking?

I take 5,400 IU but will increase to 5,800 IU after my next round of blood tests.

[stephen_b]

Vitamin A and beta carotene are two entirely different issues. You will never over-convert beta carotene to vitamin A. Also, it's mixed natural beta carotene along with the others such as cryptoaxanthin. So no smoker-synthetic beta carotene concern.

Actual vitamin A in the multi basics is 150IU...

Is that true? Wow, have I been getting that wrong. In the Cannell et al commentary piece, they were primarily speaking against retinol palmitate.

Stephen

[david ellis]

How much Vitamin A are we taking?

None, I take 43 mg of the betacarotenes, lutein, zeaxanthin. And 10,000 iu of Vitamin D3.

Edited to add Vitamin D3 intake, I am curious as to whether I am in the hole or not.

10,000 IU is a fairly high dose of vitamin D3. Do you go by your height, weight and blood tests for the amount you're taking?

I take 5,400 IU but will increase to 5,800 IU after my next round of blood tests.

I was surprised that 2400 IU units only got me to 29 ng/mL. So I went to 12K IU and ended up at 45 ng/mL. So I decided 22K IU might get me to 60. I overshot and reached an 88.3 ng/mL. (Blood tests are about 4 months apart) I decided to drop down to 12K again for two reasons. I think I have stored a lot of Vitamin D during the time that I was supplementing at 22K IU, plus it doesn't seem right supplementing at almost twice the amount a body makes in a day.

I am actually taking 12K now. When I put down 10K I was thinking of the 2-5000 IU NSI oil gels I take and forgot the 2000 IU in my custom multi.

I am 69 years old, so it is very unlikely that my body makes Vitamin D any more, my case is definitely an outlier. My understanding is that after 40, vitamin D production by the body declines precipitously.

See thread for charts that display dose-response for two groups of people. One group at 1000 IU, the other at 4000 IU.

P.S. How do we convert beta carotene mg to Vitamin A IU?

[balance]

Here you go:

http://www.dietpower...f_vitamin_a.htm


And:

http://www.signonsan...z1c28qanda.html

http://www.vitamer.com/vit_ad.asp



That said, Weston Price states that the conversion can vary by a lot, just like the conversion of ALA to DHA & EPA varies a lot. So relying in beta-carotene alone might not satisfy vitamin A needs. Stephen, you have started a topic on vitamin A before, and you were worried, I gave you a ton of links which would have eased your mind, it seems you might not have read them...

Read the following, and after you are done, stay on the extra safe side by instead of a 10:1 ratio of A to D, stick to a 6:1 ratio of D to A. 6000IU of vitamin D3 to 1000IU of natural vitamin A (retinol).

http://www.realmilk.com/vita.html

http://www.greenpasture.org/node/115

http://www.westonapr...dybuilding.html

http://www.westonapr...taminasaga.html

http://www.westonapr...mina-osteo.html

http://www.westonapr...ifications.html


http://www.westonapr...dateDec2008.pdf

http://www.westonapr...pdate-dec08.pdf


Also of interest:

http://www.westonapr...n-d-safety.html

http://www.vitamindc...DToxicity.shtml


Plus some slightly related interesting stuff:

http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1660487

Edited by piet3r, 25 December 2008 - 07:45 PM.

[david ellis]

Thanks Piet3r,

Here's my calculation-

Vitamin A daily requirement calculation-
Using 6000IU D3, 1000IU Vitamin A as the best ratio, then for me 12,000IU D3, 2,00IU Vitamin A needed/day.


Second Link and third Link Calculation
From link-"Conversion Rule: 1 mg of beta carotene equals 1,667 IU of vitamin A."
So 43 mg times 1667 = 72,000IU of A.

From WestonAPrice.org "The mean total conversion rate for the oil-soluble carotene in this experiment was 9.1, and individual rates varied from 2.4 to 20.2%" Using the lowest conversion rate I could be yielding 1700IU of Vitamin A from my 72,000 estimated units. So I could be maybe 300IU low in my Vitamin A. A conversion rate of 3% would take me slightly over. I think I am close enough for government work.


It is good to know that I won't convert more than I need. I think I have enough Vitamin A. It is good to know this. Thanks again.

That was an extensive reading list. Here are some of the things I was glad to learn.
http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vitamina-osteo.html
Higher vitamin D levels also confer benefits that are unrelated to the skeletal system: serum levels as high as 46 ng/mL, for example, appear to maximize the body's ability to regulate blood sugar.

Until reading this, I was attributing my better blood sugar levels to bitter melon pills. Now my blood sugar normalization should also be attributed to the normalization of my Vitamin D levels.

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vitamin-d-safety.html
Although vitamin K is most commonly known for its ability to activate blood clotting factors, it is also responsible for the activation of two other important proteins: osteocalcin, which is involved in the mineralization of bone matrix, and matrix Gla protein (MGP), which protects soft tissues from calcification.75 Since vitamin D is necessary for proper bone mineralization and its most common toxic effect is the calcification of soft tissues, the importance of the relationship between vitamins K and D should already be clear.

A clear explanation of how Vitamin K keeps arteries soft and bones hard at the same time. I have been wanting to know this for months.

I had a strange experience this week with Vitamin K. I was on a three day vacation from supplements and had a nose bleed. My first thought was, I will take some Vitamin K to help prevent the nose bleeds. I took 270 mcgs of MK7. I was surprised the next day to get another nosebleed of the same magnitude. Then I remembered that it was Vitamin K1 that had stopped the nose bleeds, so I took 270 mcgs of K1. And no more nose bleeds. 90 mcg of K1 is in the custom multi that I wasn't taking because I was on a supplement vacation. The situation is hard to understand because a nose bleed is a symptom of either too much fish oil or too much Vitamin D.

Upon learning that my vitamin D(OH) was 88 ng/ml, I dropped from 20,000IU of D to 12,000 IU of D on my test date Dec 1. I had been on the 12,000IU regimen for 3 weeks from the test date, so my blood level should have been 88 ng/mL or less. I don't think I will ever know which it was, too much fish oil, or too much vitamin D. My daily dose of Vitamin K1 was evidently hiding the symptom.

Long story, but here is the worry. Why doesn't Vitamin MK7 support clotting as well as Vitamin K1?

The concentration of 7-dehydrocholesterol in the skin declines with age, resulting in a 4-fold reduction in vitamin D synthesis in a 70-year-old compared to a 20-year-old.12 This suggests that the dietary need for vitamin D increases substantially with age, and also forms a basis to question the safety of administering cholesterol-lowering statin drugs to the elderly, which could further reduce levels of 7-dehydrocholesterol. As shown in the side bar below, the effect of statins on vitamin D synthesis has not been sufficiently investigated.

Being almost 70 years old, I was glad to have this info. But what does a 4-fold reduction mean? Does it mean fold(fold in half) four times? Is the calculation this? 1/2. 1/4, 1/8, 1/16? 1/16=6.25%. Say the 20 year produces 15,000 units in the sun. Then a 70 year old would produce 940 units in the same time. Are these calculations correct?

Edited by david ellis, 26 December 2008 - 06:06 AM.

[Dmitri]

Thanks Piet3r,

Here's my calculation-

Vitamin A daily requirement calculation-
Using 6000IU D3, 1000IU Vitamin A, then for 12,000IU D3, 2,00IU Vitamin A needed/day.

Certain foods contain a lot of Vit A though so what can we do?

According to the National Institute of Health the following foods have Vit A and Pro-vitamin A carotenoids; though they don't specify how much of the IU is Vitamin A

Chicken 3oz = 12,335 IU
Beef 3 oz = 27, 185 IU

http://ods.od.nih.go...vitamina.asp#h2

Edited by Dmitri, 26 December 2008 - 04:59 AM.

[NDM]

Thanks Piet3r,

Here's my calculation-

Vitamin A daily requirement calculation-
Using 6000IU D3, 1000IU Vitamin A as the best ratio, then for me 12,000IU D3, 2,00IU Vitamin A needed/day.


Second Link and third Link Calculation
From link-"Conversion Rule: 1 mg of beta carotene equals 1,667 IU of vitamin A."
So 43 mg times 1667 = 72,000IU of A.

From WestonAPrice.org "The mean total conversion rate for the oil-soluble carotene in this experiment was 9.1, and individual rates varied from 2.4 to 20.2%" Using the lowest conversion rate I could be yielding 1700IU of Vitamin A from my 72,000 estimated units. So I could be maybe 300IU low in my Vitamin A. A conversion rate of 3% would take me slightly over. I think I am close enough for government work.


It is good to know that I won't convert more than I need. I think I have enough Vitamin A. It is good to know this. Thanks again.

That was an extensive reading list. Here are some of the things I was glad to learn.
http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vitamina-osteo.html
Higher vitamin D levels also confer benefits that are unrelated to the skeletal system: serum levels as high as 46 ng/mL, for example, appear to maximize the body's ability to regulate blood sugar.

Until reading this, I was attributing my better blood sugar levels to bitter melon pills. Now my blood sugar normalization should also be attributed to the normalization of my Vitamin D levels.

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vitamin-d-safety.html
Although vitamin K is most commonly known for its ability to activate blood clotting factors, it is also responsible for the activation of two other important proteins: osteocalcin, which is involved in the mineralization of bone matrix, and matrix Gla protein (MGP), which protects soft tissues from calcification.75 Since vitamin D is necessary for proper bone mineralization and its most common toxic effect is the calcification of soft tissues, the importance of the relationship between vitamins K and D should already be clear.

A clear explanation of how Vitamin K keeps arteries soft and bones hard at the same time. I have been wanting to know this for months.

I had a strange experience this week with Vitamin K. I was on a three day vacation from supplements and had a nose bleed. My first thought was, I will take some Vitamin K to help prevent the nose bleeds. I took 270 mcgs of MK7. I was surprised the next day to get another nosebleed of the same magnitude. Then I remembered that it was Vitamin K1 that had stopped the nose bleeds, so I took 270 mcgs of K1. And no more nose bleeds. 90 mcg of K1 is in the custom multi that I wasn't taking because I was on a supplement vacation. The situation is hard to understand because a nose bleed is a symptom of either too much fish oil or too much Vitamin D.

Upon learning that my vitamin D(OH) was 88 ng/ml, I dropped from 20,000IU of D to 12,000 IU of D on my test date Dec 1. I had been on the 12,000IU regimen for 3 weeks from the test date, so my blood level should have been 88 ng/mL or less. I don't think I will ever know which it was, too much fish oil, or too much vitamin D. My daily dose of Vitamin K1 was evidently hiding the symptom.

Long story, but here is the worry. Why doesn't Vitamin MK7 support clotting as well as Vitamin K1?

The concentration of 7-dehydrocholesterol in the skin declines with age, resulting in a 4-fold reduction in vitamin D synthesis in a 70-year-old compared to a 20-year-old.12 This suggests that the dietary need for vitamin D increases substantially with age, and also forms a basis to question the safety of administering cholesterol-lowering statin drugs to the elderly, which could further reduce levels of 7-dehydrocholesterol. As shown in the side bar below, the effect of statins on vitamin D synthesis has not been sufficiently investigated.

Being almost 70 years old, I was glad to have this info. But what does a 4-fold reduction mean? Does it mean fold(fold in half) four times? Is the calculation this? 1/2. 1/4, 1/8, 1/16? 1/16=6.25%. Say the 20 year produces 15,000 units in the sun. Then a 70 year old would produce 940 units in the same time. Are these calculations correct?

My guess is that they mean that a 70 year old produces 25% of the amount of D produced by a 20 year old.

[david ellis]

My guess is that they mean that a 70 year old produces 25% of the amount of D produced by a 20 year old.

Of course, thanks

[suspire]

Thanks Piet3r,

Here's my calculation-

Vitamin A daily requirement calculation-
Using 6000IU D3, 1000IU Vitamin A, then for 12,000IU D3, 2,00IU Vitamin A needed/day.

Certain foods contain a lot of Vit A though so what can we do?

According to the National Institute of Health the following foods have Vit A and Pro-vitamin A carotenoids; though they don't specify how much of the IU is Vitamin A

Chicken 3oz = 12,335 IU
Beef 3 oz = 27, 185 IU

http://ods.od.nih.go...vitamina.asp#h2

You are looking at chicken and beef livers. Not beef and chicken, alone.

If we supplement A to D at 1 to 6, it'd be nice to see a supplement out there that has considerably less Vitamin A in it. The absolute smallest dose I can find is the Solgar's brand that pycnogenol is taking. Anyone taking/found a lower dose Vitamin A pill? And does dry work as well as gelcaps for Vitamin A? I know there were issues with it when it comes to Vitamin D.

[pycnogenol]

The absolute smallest dose I can find is the Solgar's brand that pycnogenol is taking. Anyone taking/found a lower dose Vitamin A pill? And does dry work as well as gelcaps for Vitamin A?
I know there were issues with it when it comes to Vitamin D.

I haven't found a lower strength but I'm real happy taking the high quality Solgar brand. AFAIK, the dry form works as well as gelcaps. If someone knows differently, let me know.

Well, alrighty, this looks pretty tempting:

http://www.iherb.com...x?pid=3623&at=0

"Mycel Vitamin A contains high quality vitamin A in a special water-soluble, micellized form for excellent absorption."

Hmm. Might have to give it a try down the road.

Edited by pycnogenol, 01 January 2009 - 11:48 PM.

[suspire]

The absolute smallest dose I can find is the Solgar's brand that pycnogenol is taking. Anyone taking/found a lower dose Vitamin A pill? And does dry work as well as gelcaps for Vitamin A?
I know there were issues with it when it comes to Vitamin D.

I haven't found a lower strength but I'm real happy taking the high quality Solgar brand. AFAIK, the dry form works as well as gelcaps. If someone knows differently, let me know.

Well, alrighty, this looks pretty tempting:

http://www.iherb.com...x?pid=3623&at=0

"Mycel Vitamin A contains high quality vitamin A in a special water-soluble, micellized form for excellent absorption."

Hmm. Might have to give it a try down the road.

Hmm. Yeah, that does sound like it might have some worth. But the question becomes: Do we really need to supplement with Vitamin A? Aren't we getting enough from a basic diet?