• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

CI or Die


  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#1 thefirstimmortal

  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 25 December 2008 - 04:07 PM


There has been a rumor over the past few months that I might be using KrioRus for my cryonics suspension.

For the record, the idea was brought up a long time ago. I said I would be willing to look at the paperwork, but the paperwork wasn’t forwarded for some time. In the meantime I launched my own investigation into the matter.

For starter, I have nothing bad to say about KrioRus, I wish them well. They are a group filled with proud and bold leaders who are operating a cryonics company in Russia.

Most of the problems associated with a Russian suspension have nothing to do with the company itself. Those who proposed the option did not fully consider the transportation issue involved in such an undertaking. That has nothing to do the company; the transportation problems arise due to government regulations, something that KrioRus does not control.

To my knowledge, no one has ever been taken from America to foreign soil for a suspension. As if the problems of a first time out of country international shipment of a cryonics patient to Russia from the US were not bad enough, I don’t think anyone considered the regulations involved, which could make such a trip far more difficult to the point of impossibility, not to mention far more expensive than a CI suspension.

I hope everyone will respect and understand my desire my decision to stay the course with CI. There are material considerations involved as to why I wish to remain with CI and they are powerful and important to a successful suspension and reanimation.

1) CI has a 30-year track history of patient storage and an even longer one of organizational stability.
2) They have a history of financial stability and they have quite a few members with net worth in excess of several millions who it is not unreasonable to believe would help in a financial emergency if they are able to do so.
3) They have a broad and large base of committed members with a long track history of involvement in cryonics and support of CI.
4) They are in a country and a culture I am at home with and grew up in.
5) They have robust back-up Dewar capability.
6) The mechanics of getting to CI post arrest and getting processed and stored are routine and state sanctioned.
7) Due to simple logistical consideration it is not possible to get me to Russia on water ice in a timely fashion so I would have to be straight frozen. This is very undesirable and what's more who would act to do this?

Currently, CI suspension is the only credible option on the table.

#2 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 23 January 2009 - 10:42 PM

At some point in time I need to get involved in the matching fund fund raiser. And I do look forward to helping. This is the thread I plan on posting in for that effort.

#3 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:01 PM

Before I get started, I would like to Thank Robert Ettinger (The Father of Immortality) and Dave Pizer. Bob asked Dave to start this fund raiser this past summer and I want to thank Bob for standing solidly behind me on this, getting the ball rolling, and for being a constant source of inspiration to me. Bob also contributed generously and inspired others to contribute.

Dave Pizer spent a lot of time motivating others to donate and constantly requested the cryonet community to contribute. Before the snow fell, David had secured a very large sum of over $12,000 providing a great base of funds. That is a great amount considering that the fundraiser had been going on less than a year. I think that effort is something that Dave should be proud of, and to use Dave’s very own words, “Ettinger is a saint. --- A brilliant Saint!”

Should I be reanimated in the future I will indebted to both of them as well as to all who have contributed.

Attached Files



#4 RighteousReason

  • Guest
  • 2,491 posts
  • -103
  • Location:Atlanta, GA

Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:31 PM

See you on the other side.

#5 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 12:53 AM

See you on the other side.


If all goes accordingly, I look forward to that. :p Thank you for donotion Advancdaltruist.

Attached Files



#6 RighteousReason

  • Guest
  • 2,491 posts
  • -103
  • Location:Atlanta, GA

Posted 28 January 2009 - 01:21 AM

See you on the other side.


If all goes accordingly, I look forward to that. ;) Thank you for donotion Advancdaltruist.

Of course. You totally owe me lunch when you are revived. :p

#7 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 02:36 AM

Of course. You totally owe me lunch when you are revived. :p


Under the Eiffel Tower with Samantha and Spider Boris. I got the check. I’ll post the date in the future.

Attached Files



#8 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 04:05 AM

Long Live Freedom of Speech

I'll be talking with Ben Best tonight, and will get more details to you Wililam--I'm assuming at this point that as soon as the full CI funds are raised he'll be taking over working with you--to make sure your POA is in order, transportation, suspension etc.


Shannon, there are some things I do not need you to do and there are 2 matters you can be of some help on. I don’t need you to get any information from Ben for me; I will be in contact with Ben when it is relevant to do so. Once the funds are at the minimum I will handle my paperwork, I do have some legal abilities and don’t need any assistance in that field.

Happily there are two matters that you can help with. The first is the old matter of the check (My Lifetime Membership fee and Nicks Pavlica Matching 500 dollar donation) that it was well settled that Dave and The Society of Venturism agreed to return to Imminst and Nick Pavlica. I will of course be talking to Dave about this matter, but you can probably work faster in this matter than I can since you have a working relationship with both Dave and Mark Plus who helps keep track of the donations.

What you may not be aware of Shannon is that a member here who did not want to see me lose out on the 500 dollars sent me a Money Order for 500 dollars on November 11th to cover the donation when it was returned to Imminst and also promised to send an additional 500 to cover for Nicks matching offer, so as soon as it is verified that my Lifetime Membership fee has been properly returned I can send the 500 dollar donation in.

Since it is going to be matched, I see no reason to take the gentleman up on adding the 500 dollars that Nick matched, since it is already being matched. Nick however may keep the money and do with it was he wishes. If he wishes to keep his money that is fine, and if he wishes to donate it to get a matching 500 dollars to my fund, I wouldn’t be opposed to that either.

Is this something you care to assist me on? If not, I will be happy to take care of this myself.

All of my threads will be moved to the Freedom of Speech Forum Soon.

#9 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 04:14 AM

Long Live Freedom of Speech

I'd say the only silver lining in this affair, is that now William I'm relieved for the first time that you will be preserved.


Has Marce Johnson’s case taught you nothing Shannon? There are plenty of ways this deal can go sideways even when there is enough money to cover a basic contract. Getting funding is only the beginning of a suspension, not the end.

All of my threads will be moved to the Freedom of Speech Forum Soon.

#10 Shannon Vyff

  • Life Member, Director Lead Moderator
  • 3,897 posts
  • 702
  • Location:Boston, MA

Posted 28 January 2009 - 04:37 AM

Marce's case was a lack of support by her family. I'll ask Mark what the status of the $500 to ImmInst and to Nick are. But, for you-as you well know, you'll need to work with Ben to ensure everything is in order.

#11 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 05:13 AM

What a sad tale, that it should end like this for someone so committed. There were a lot of complications here, but the take-home messages are: 2) You need to have your family behind you, or else have legal representation.


Having Legal representation according to Saul and David may have not mattered. Mike Darwin offers the following in his letter.

3) No attempt would be made to use the court system or other legal coercive mechanisms to challenge Walt’s or the family’s decision in this matter. Since both Marce’s husband, her many children, and her other relatives were not supportive of cryonics or were opposed, it was deemed by Saul Kent, and Dave Pizer, that litigation would prove not only fruitless, but possibly counterproductive.

4) Considerations in making the decision not to take coercive action(s) were that Walt was himself dying (he is currently in hospice care) raising the possibility that he might not outlive Marce opening another opportunity to revisit the matter with her children. Other considerations were that there was no funding for such an effort and approaches to several attorneys who might work pro bono (or provide advice gratis), yielded no offers of help and the uniform opinion that litigation would be unsuccessful and costly. [ It probably also should be noted that one similar such effort in the past proved a financially costly failure.]



I believe a legal challenge could have been mounted, and one that could have saved Marce. But it is all too easy to Monday Morning quarter back. These are the very legal issues that I started to look into just prior to my arrest.

#12 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 05:19 AM

Long Live Freedom of Speech



However, I don't believe anyone has ever been prosecuted for a successful suicide attempt. Funny the hoops society makes you jump through in order to not die.


One hoop you might have to hop through is an automatic Autopsy in some states.

All of my threads will be moved to the Freedom of Speech Forum Soon.

#13 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 06:08 AM

Marce's case was a lack of support by her family.


Marce’s case was not a simple matter of a lack of support by her family. Marce’s case was about the Right to Control Disposition of Remains!!!

That is the cornerstone of the legal rights of a cryonaught. This case was a clear-cut case that involved the clash of the following legal rights, the rights of a family to control disposition of remains, and the right of a decedent to direct that disposition.

A decedent, prior to his or her death, may direct the preparation for, type, or place of interment of his or her remains, either by oral or written instructions. The family only has a right to control the disposition of the remains of a deceased person, including the location and conditions of interment, if directions have not been given by the decedent.

The person or persons otherwise entitled to control the disposition of the remains shall faithfully carry out the directions of the decedent subject. If the person on whom the duty of controlling the disposition of remains is aware of the decedent's wishes regarding the disposition of their remains, that person shall comply with those wishes.

So can you really say that Marce perished because of a lack of support by her family, or did she perish because there wasn’t enough legal talent or will to mount a challenge? There was far more evidence of Marce’s wishes than there were in the Ted Williams case, funny how Ted made it to the ice, and he had family members who were hostile to the idea of his suspension.

Edited by thefirstimmortal, 28 January 2009 - 06:09 AM.


#14 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 06:16 AM

But, for you-as you well know, you'll need to work with Ben to ensure everything is in order.


That is why I wrote "I will be in contact with Ben when it is relevant to do so." As it stands today there isn't enough money to fund a suspension and until there is enough there isn't any reason to spend time on the issue. That takes away from rescue mission number one, survival, which is far more important than paperwork that cannot be enacted.

#15 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 06:19 AM

I'll ask Mark what the status of the $500 to ImmInst and to Nick are.


Thank You Shannon. I'm timed out, so I'll take care of the 2nd issue as soon as I get up tomorrow.

Edited by thefirstimmortal, 28 January 2009 - 12:44 PM.


#16 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 06:23 AM

edit

Edited by thefirstimmortal, 28 January 2009 - 12:40 PM.


#17 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 06:27 AM

edit

Edited by thefirstimmortal, 28 January 2009 - 12:41 PM.


#18 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 06:27 AM

1:27am, Good Night

Attached Files

  • Attached File  24.gif   272bytes   0 downloads

Edited by thefirstimmortal, 28 January 2009 - 12:42 PM.


#19 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 12:38 PM

7:38 am, Good Morning Da5id.
Welcome to Imminst.

Attached Files


Edited by thefirstimmortal, 28 January 2009 - 12:43 PM.


#20 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 02:09 PM

On the second issue Shannon, you posted the following on cryonet Wed Jul 16 this past year.

X-Message-Number: 30873
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:45:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Shannon <shannonvyff@yahoo.com>
Subject: Urgent Situation

Hello all,


I wanted to add some info about William O'Rights that I learned after becoming
involved in leadership at Immortality Institute. He has, in addition to his
extensive research into legal cases that can help protect cryonics now, been a
supporter of life extension for many years--not just a verbal supporter, but has
helped from very big pockets. I have been impressed by his high ethical
standards, and views of liberty, he is a clear defender of free speech and
personal freedom.


William has started a thread at ImmInst talking about his efforts at fighting
this cancer with supplements, he is highly intelligent and if he wins this fight
for his life, then any money donated to the Venturists fund for him of course
would be available for you to get back (or transfer to Marce's fund if you
chose).


I will be donating to his case, I hope that others will be able to fit a
donation into their budget. It is the least we can do to help those who have
been long time supporters and members of our community, and have fallen on hard
times. I'd love to see our community create a safety net, to help some of our
valued members.

You can send a check to:

The Society for Venturism "William O'Rights Fund", 11255 State Route 69, Mayer
Arizona, 86333



But I'm sure they'll be posting more information, and you can talk to William if
you want at ImmInst, he is posting there daily lately. If you are interested
in seeing research he has done they are in our archives.


With all the emails we get, all the commitments we have vieing for our time, I
hope you will add sending a check to you to-do list ;-).



Take care,
Shannon Vyff (ImmInst Chair, Alcor member)



#21 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 02:12 PM

A little over a month later you posted the following.

X-Message-Number: 30948
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 07:23:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Shannon <shannonvyff@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: O'Rights fund seems stalled- can you help?


Anyone on the cusp of being able to cover more of the cost, and able to so do
so-can be assured that they can get their money back if the preservation does
not now occur (or in the future if cryonics did work and William paid them back)
or they can designate the money to go to Marce's case, or an area of cryonics
research of their choice.


One return on the investment, now however is the social return--the respect one
gains from the rest in our cryonics community.


It is heart wrenching to talk with William on the phone and to hear how degraded
he is, and to see how much effort he puts into communicating on the Internet
with the community he once was such an active supporter of.


I do hope someone will be able to donate more. I would cover the full costs if I
could, and hope to someday be in a position to do so for deserving cryonicists
who need help--currently I'm young, and have three children, our family though
is working on building our assets for when we are older.

Thank you, Shannon Vyff



#22 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 02:16 PM

Several hours after your post Robert Ettinger offered the following.

X-Message-Number: 30949
From: Ettinger@aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 13:15:56 EDT
Subject: O'Rights fund

Here's a possibility. Perhaps there are some potential donors who would be
willing to commit (say) for $100/year for ten years, total $1,000. In return

for a promissory note to that effect (zero interest), I would put up the $1,000
now, to a maximum of $10,000.

Robert Ettinger



#23 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 02:19 PM

Your response to Bob’s offer the next day was the following.

X-Message-Number: 30956
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 06:56:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Shannon <shannonvyff@yahoo.com>
Subject: Can this be done?

Excellent idea Robert! This is a way I could donate 1,000.


But-to David my question is can this be realistically done, so that many more
could come forth and make pledges? Also, how long would Venturists really want
to be collecting and have this on their yearly financials? Who would front the
money at William's de-animation, Venturists? It is my understanding that CI is
not able to take any sort of "I.O.U."...


Edited by thefirstimmortal, 28 January 2009 - 02:21 PM.


#24 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 02:24 PM

Several days later on Cryonet you posted the following.

X-Message-Number: 30988
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:23:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Shannon <shannonvyff@yahoo.com>
Subject: William O'Rights Fund/Ettinger's offer


I was wondering if I can do the same loan for Marce as is being offered for
William. I only have donated 200 to Marce and really would love to do more, I
could cover 200 a year for both and thus be adding 1000 for each over the next
decade to the current tally.



Health, Happiness, Wisdom & Longevity :-) --Shannon Vyff

"21st Century Kids"
http://www.amazon.co...f/dp/1886057001



#25 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 02:28 PM

Nearly a month later Bob posted about the first to take his offer.

X-Message-Number: 31071
From: Ettinger@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:19:33 EDT
Subject: an O'rights donation

Today (Sunday) at the Cryonics Institute annual meeting, we had the first
taker on my offer to accept a promissory note for $1,000 at $100/year, and
would immediately send the Venturist O'Rights fund the $1,000.

The donors are Mr. & Mrs. Paul Hagen.

As a reminder, my offer is for up to ten such, or $10,000 total. The note

carries no interest, and should say that if I die with a balance remaining that
balance (remaining payments) will be paid to the Cryonics Institute.

If others want to help now, I repeat my mailing address: Time is growing
short.



#26 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 02:30 PM

A week later another Cryonet member took advantage of Bobs offer.

Robert Ettinger
35871 Larchwood
Clinton Township MI 48035

X-Message-Number: 31086
From: Ettinger@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:49:26 EDT
Subject: another O'Rights donation

CI member Guy Gipson, having already donated $200 for O'Rights directly to
CI, has authorized another $800 through my offer and has sent me his note. I
have mailed my check for $800 to the Venturists for their O'Rights fund.

R.E.


Edited by thefirstimmortal, 28 January 2009 - 02:32 PM.


#27 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 28 January 2009 - 02:38 PM

Questions Presented Shannon.

Did you ever follow up on your public offer to donate?

If not, wouldn’t this be a good time to do so? For 100 dollars you could take advantage of Bobs generous offer and he could send in the $1,000 dollars, which would turn into $2,000 dollars with the Imminst matching fund. You could always ask Dave to use the money from the Marce donation so it wouldn’t take a penny out of your pocket this year.

#28 Shannon Vyff

  • Life Member, Director Lead Moderator
  • 3,897 posts
  • 702
  • Location:Boston, MA

Posted 28 January 2009 - 06:30 PM

No, on utilizing Bob's matching grant--long story, but again a public place would not be the place for me to relate. I can ask Bob if he'll still do this for funds transfered from Marce's account.

#29 niner

  • Guest
  • 16,276 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 28 January 2009 - 07:10 PM

What a sad tale, that it should end like this for someone so committed. There were a lot of complications here, but the take-home messages are: 2) You need to have your family behind you, or else have legal representation.


Having Legal representation according to Saul and David may have not mattered. Mike Darwin offers the following in his letter.

3) No attempt would be made to use the court system or other legal coercive mechanisms to challenge Walt’s or the family’s decision in this matter. Since both Marce’s husband, her many children, and her other relatives were not supportive of cryonics or were opposed, it was deemed by Saul Kent, and Dave Pizer, that litigation would prove not only fruitless, but possibly counterproductive.

4) Considerations in making the decision not to take coercive action(s) were that Walt was himself dying (he is currently in hospice care) raising the possibility that he might not outlive Marce opening another opportunity to revisit the matter with her children. Other considerations were that there was no funding for such an effort and approaches to several attorneys who might work pro bono (or provide advice gratis), yielded no offers of help and the uniform opinion that litigation would be unsuccessful and costly. [ It probably also should be noted that one similar such effort in the past proved a financially costly failure.]


I believe a legal challenge could have been mounted, and one that could have saved Marce. But it is all too easy to Monday Morning quarter back. These are the very legal issues that I started to look into just prior to my arrest.

I agree with you, TFI. I think what would be needed if your family was opposed would be a lawyer who would step in early, in the event that you become unable to communicate your wishes. I could imagine a person with AD being conned into agreeing with the family member, so this would be something that a representative might need to guard against. Having a large quantity of money and remaining in control of it are the two things that would ensure that ones wishes were honored.

#30 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 29 January 2009 - 05:35 AM

I agree with you, TFI. I think what would be needed if your family was opposed would be a lawyer who would step in early, in the event that you become unable to communicate your wishes. I could imagine a person with AD being conned into agreeing with the family member, so this would be something that a representative might need to guard against. Having a large quantity of money and remaining in control of it are the two things that would ensure that ones wishes were honored.


Marce Johnson’s case highlights two concerns of mine, someone in the family stopping my suspension and the future condition of my brain.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users