20 replies to this topic

[bigsend]

Here is the link to the product page: http://www.primordia...do-booster.html

The reviews on the product are really positive, bodybuilders are using it post-cycle instead of clomid or other drugs to activate their testicles. Some are even using it during cycle and claim they do not lose any testicle mass. They are marketing this product as a testosterone booster, rather than a life-extending chemical, which I found an interesting contrast to the talk on this site. The dosage seems low compared to typical suggestions, but perhaps it is getting to the bloodstream much more effectively.

I did some reading into transdermals and the company's formula seems like a good one. The cost seems a bit high, around $2.00-$3.00/day. That puts the cost near prescription medication!

I say we figure out our own transdermal cream. All the information is out there. It would be interesting to see what kind of cost we can come up with as a minimum for a similar product.

removed link as probable spam -- maxwatt

Edited by maxwatt, 28 December 2008 - 10:26 PM.

[maxwatt]

Here is the link to the product page: http://www.primordia...do-booster.html

The reviews on the product are really positive, bodybuilders are using it post-cycle instead of clomid or other drugs to activate their testicles. Some are even using it during cycle and claim they do not lose any testicle mass. They are marketing this product as a testosterone booster, rather than a life-extending chemical, which I found an interesting contrast to the talk on this site. The dosage seems low compared to typical suggestions, but perhaps it is getting to the bloodstream much more effectively.

I did some reading into transdermals and the company's formula seems like a good one. The cost seems a bit high, around $2.00-$3.00/day. That puts the cost near prescription medication!

I say we figure out our own transdermal cream. All the information is out there. It would be interesting to see what kind of cost we can come up with as a minimum for a similar product.

There was a discussion in 2007 about transdermal delivery. The problem seem to be that it is not possible to get high blood serum levels that way even with
the best delivery systems. The use of resveratrol-containing skin creams could affect the skin cells where it is applied. It is easy enough to add powdered resveratrol to any skin cream or lotion you like.

Edited by maxwatt, 28 December 2008 - 10:27 PM.

[michael084]

I have used it a few times now. It is the only resveratrol product I have used besides a liquid I bought at Sam's Club. It is what really brought me here to do more research on resveratrol. It is about $50 for a months supply. The feeling of well-being, energy and libido are great. It has some other ingredients in it as well. When you come off a steroid cycle you have none of these, and the meds you use to restore natural testosterone production just make all these symptoms worse. The company that makes it has a very good transdermal delivery system, their DHEA product (which also contains resveratrol) is the only DHEA product I have ever used that did anything for me. It is not just any cream that you can put things into and expect to get good absorption. I am also looking into IBE Reverse which has been talked about on here. I intend on trying it in the near future.

[maxwatt]

I have used it a few times now. It is the only resveratrol product I have used besides a liquid I bought at Sam's Club. It is what really brought me here to do more research on resveratrol. It is about $50 for a months supply. The feeling of well-being, energy and libido are great. It has some other ingredients in it as well. When you come off a steroid cycle you have none of these, and the meds you use to restore natural testosterone production just make all these symptoms worse. The company that makes it has a very good transdermal delivery system, their DHEA product (which also contains resveratrol) is the only DHEA product I have ever used that did anything for me. It is not just any cream that you can put things into and expect to get good absorption. I am also looking into IBE Reverse which has been talked about on here. I intend on trying it in the near future.

This looks suspiciously like one of those sock-puppet "discussions" manufacturers engage in to tout their products. Both bigsend and michael084 joined today.

Trans-dermal delivery cannot result in sufficient blood serum levels of resveratrol to do much of anything as was discussed in these forums HERE

Now, there is finally some research on topical and transdermal delivery of RESV. I haven't have a chance to read the entire paper yet, but I'm posting it here.

Based upon the new research, I'm curious about what you guys think?

Using their best formulation, they measured a flux of 2 nm/cm^2 hr. If you use a rather gigantic 200 square cm patch, that would give you 400 nm per hour, or 0.09 milligrams/hour. So that's not going to work too well. That also doesn't take into account the amount that gets held up in the subcutaneous tissues. During that entire hour, the liver is happily conjugating the resveratrol, so unless you can get it in orders of magnitude faster, you'll never see a significant amount in the plasma.

[michael084]

I have used it a few times now. It is the only resveratrol product I have used besides a liquid I bought at Sam's Club. It is what really brought me here to do more research on resveratrol. It is about $50 for a months supply. The feeling of well-being, energy and libido are great. It has some other ingredients in it as well. When you come off a steroid cycle you have none of these, and the meds you use to restore natural testosterone production just make all these symptoms worse. The company that makes it has a very good transdermal delivery system, their DHEA product (which also contains resveratrol) is the only DHEA product I have ever used that did anything for me. It is not just any cream that you can put things into and expect to get good absorption. I am also looking into IBE Reverse which has been talked about on here. I intend on trying it in the near future.

This looks suspiciously like one of those sock-puppet "discussions" manufacturers engage in to tout their products. Both bigsend and michael084 joined today.

Trans-dermal delivery cannot result in sufficient blood serum levels of resveratrol to do much of anything as was discussed in these forums HERE

Now, there is finally some research on topical and transdermal delivery of RESV. I haven't have a chance to read the entire paper yet, but I'm posting it here.

Based upon the new research, I'm curious about what you guys think?

Using their best formulation, they measured a flux of 2 nm/cm^2 hr. If you use a rather gigantic 200 square cm patch, that would give you 400 nm per hour, or 0.09 milligrams/hour. So that's not going to work too well. That also doesn't take into account the amount that gets held up in the subcutaneous tissues. During that entire hour, the liver is happily conjugating the resveratrol, so unless you can get it in orders of magnitude faster, you'll never see a significant amount in the plasma.

I do not know about the other guy but I joined just to reply to this topic. I have been reading on here for awhile. This is the first time that I have seen something that I thought I could add to, having used the product. But I do know what you mean I have seen that many times when manufacturers keep bumping their own products.

[michael084]

What is your opinion on the acetylated resveratrol. I saw where the manufacturer was on here when they were bringing it to market, but I have not found any testimonials on here where anyone used it. It is quite a bit more expensive than trans resveratrol. I am at the point of buying either the Reverse or another brand that is trans and would like to hear some feedback from someone that has used both.

[niner]

I have used it a few times now. It is the only resveratrol product I have used besides a liquid I bought at Sam's Club. It is what really brought me here to do more research on resveratrol. It is about $50 for a months supply. The feeling of well-being, energy and libido are great. It has some other ingredients in it as well. When you come off a steroid cycle you have none of these, and the meds you use to restore natural testosterone production just make all these symptoms worse. The company that makes it has a very good transdermal delivery system, their DHEA product (which also contains resveratrol) is the only DHEA product I have ever used that did anything for me. It is not just any cream that you can put things into and expect to get good absorption. I am also looking into IBE Reverse which has been talked about on here. I intend on trying it in the near future.

I've never looked at this product, but steroids are generally great candidates for transdermal delivery, since they are hydrophobic as hell and are very potent so you don't need to deliver very much. If this stuff is making you feel good, it might have some sort of steroid in it. Resveratrol by itself, if it's pure, doesn't make people feel good, unless perhaps they have some underlying inflammation. The resveratrol in the DHEA product sounds like it's just a gimmick. Resveratrol is just the wrong kind of molecule for transdermal delivery; it's too polar and you need to deliver too large a dose to get the desired pharmacologic action.

[michael084]

I've never looked at this product, but steroids are generally great candidates for transdermal delivery, since they are hydrophobic as hell and are very potent so you don't need to deliver very much. If this stuff is making you feel good, it might have some sort of steroid in it. Resveratrol by itself, if it's pure, doesn't make people feel good, unless perhaps they have some underlying inflammation. The resveratrol in the DHEA product sounds like it's just a gimmick. Resveratrol is just the wrong kind of molecule for transdermal delivery; it's too polar and you need to deliver too large a dose to get the desired pharmacologic action.
[/quote]

After reading the thread linked above, it just seems that the oral bio availability is fine with Resveratrol. So really no need for the transdermal anyway. Though I did notice they did a 200 square cm area which seems very small. I use it everywhere that I see veins near the surface and use niacin to increase blood flow. They promote the Resveratrol's supposed Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM)-like qualities on breast tissue as why they include it in the Sustain, to avoid Gynecomastia. I don't really know why they put it in the other product with the DHEA, I guess same reason. I am looking at a bottle of Sustain now and the ingredients are 162 mg of 99% Resveratrol/ 108 mg of 7,8 Benzoflavone/ and 21mg of Aromatic oil blend. Supposedly the 7,8 Benzoflavone acts to stimulate the Leutenizing Hormone (LH) response of the HPTA. Some are trying it even when using steroids to try to keep things normal but I am very skeptical of this working. I believe only HCG or HMG can do this. I will continue to use the Sustain when needed, but not for the Resveratrol benefits. I am still trying to decide if it is worth it to spend the extra money on the acetylated version of Resveratrol over the trans. It does seem like there would be a large benefit to getting the Resveratrol past the liver so it could act on the tissues in the body. I only worry because most times when you do something to to help bypass the liver you are actually making the liver work harder. So I have some more reading to do. By the way I read on the other thread about folks using the Res/DMSO mix to help locally with sore joints, DMSO is well known in the bodybuilding community to help on its own with joints. Thanks for all your help and sorry for hijacking this other cat's thread.

[niner]

What is your opinion on the acetylated resveratrol. I saw where the manufacturer was on here when they were bringing it to market, but I have not found any testimonials on here where anyone used it. It is quite a bit more expensive than trans resveratrol. I am at the point of buying either the Reverse or another brand that is trans and would like to hear some feedback from someone that has used both.

Was this the stuff where they acetylated all three of the hydroxyls? (If so, I'm kinda skeptical.) The version that would be good would be acetylated at the 4'-OH. Can you actually buy an acetylated version now? I haven't seen it. Do you have a link to it?

[bigsend]

If I joined to promote the product why would I say it costs too much and suggest we figure out our own version? You guys seem pretty touchy to spam, if you are going to censor an open forum, then this is not a place in which I want to be a member. You vote on a topic based on your responses, if you don't want to see it, then don't bump it up to the top with a reply. I guess the moderators here believe everyone is a moron that needs to be mothered. Nanny forum FTW.

Look at all your postings, resveratrol does not get to the bloodstream, resveratrol is conjugated by glutathione in the liver, no one has any feedback on what massive doses of resveratrol taken orally actually FEELS like. I am clearly not trying to sell you on the product, just bringing THE IDEA to everyone's attention. A lot of bodybuilders have had blood tests on and off the product. According to them, transdermal delivery works. That is more than anyone here has to say. You can't even rebut it except theoretically.

Go ahead and stifle discussion on the topic. If you are interested, the product page lists many references regarding resveratrol and transdermals. The information is out there, if you can actually open your eyes.

Also, mixing in resveratrol into lotion is like saying put tobacco in cream so you don't have to buy nicotine patches. Yeah, take this guy's advice, it is MUCH better than to hear out a company that posts 30 science references.

PS I have never tried the damn product, nor am I endorsing it. Go look at my introduction posting in general supplements.

[michael084]

What is your opinion on the acetylated resveratrol. I saw where the manufacturer was on here when they were bringing it to market, but I have not found any testimonials on here where anyone used it. It is quite a bit more expensive than trans resveratrol. I am at the point of buying either the Reverse or another brand that is trans and would like to hear some feedback from someone that has used both.

Was this the stuff where they acetylated all three of the hydroxyls? (If so, I'm kinda skeptical.) The version that would be good would be acetylated at the 4'-OH. Can you actually buy an acetylated version now? I haven't seen it. Do you have a link to it?

Why would it be better to have it acetylated at the 4'OH?
http://www.nutraplan...0-capsules.html

Edited by michael084, 29 December 2008 - 02:05 AM.

[michael084]

Was this the study that was linked to in the other thread? The old link does not work for me?


http://www.jstage.js...b/31/5/955/_pdf

[maxwatt]

If I joined to promote the product why would I say it costs too much and suggest we figure out our own version? You guys seem pretty touchy to spam, if you are going to censor an open forum, then this is not a place in which I want to be a member. You vote on a topic based on your responses, if you don't want to see it, then don't bump it up to the top with a reply. I guess the moderators here believe everyone is a moron that needs to be mothered. Nanny forum FTW.

Look at all your postings, resveratrol does not get to the bloodstream, resveratrol is conjugated by glutathione in the liver, no one has any feedback on what massive doses of resveratrol taken orally actually FEELS like. I am clearly not trying to sell you on the product, just bringing THE IDEA to everyone's attention. A lot of bodybuilders have had blood tests on and off the product. According to them, transdermal delivery works. That is more than anyone here has to say. You can't even rebut it except theoretically.

Go ahead and stifle discussion on the topic. If you are interested, the product page lists many references regarding resveratrol and transdermals. The information is out there, if you can actually open your eyes.

Also, mixing in resveratrol into lotion is like saying put tobacco in cream so you don't have to buy nicotine patches. Yeah, take this guy's advice, it is MUCH better than to hear out a company that posts 30 science references.

PS I have never tried the damn product, nor am I endorsing it. Go look at my introduction posting in general supplements.

My apologies if I jumped to conclusions about your involvement. We're not stopping discussion, but I removed the commercial link as a precautionary measure. You have not looked through many of the threads here if you say there is no feedback on "massive" doses. If someone thinks transedermal delivery works, I would be inclined to attribute it to the placebo effect. The science is pretty clear on what kinds of molecules it works for. And no, putting resveratrol into a skin lotion is not transdermal delivery, it has a localized action on the skin.

Edited by maxwatt, 29 December 2008 - 04:24 AM.

[niner]

Look at all your postings, resveratrol does not get to the bloodstream, resveratrol is conjugated by glutathione in the liver, no one has any feedback on what massive doses of resveratrol taken orally actually FEELS like. I am clearly not trying to sell you on the product, just bringing THE IDEA to everyone's attention. A lot of bodybuilders have had blood tests on and off the product. According to them, transdermal delivery works. That is more than anyone here has to say. You can't even rebut it except theoretically.

Resveratrol does get into the bloodstream, just not in great quantity. We have plenty of feedback on what large oral doses feel like, because a lot of us have tried exactly that. If the resveratrol is pure, it doesn't feel like much. Body builders may have had tests for something on and off the product, but I find it very hard to believe that any of them were tested for a plasma resveratrol level. If resveratrol were the only thing in Sustain alpha, those tests might mean something, but it contains some very potent compounds (7,8-benzoflavone, for example) that are probably responsible for any effects. It for damn sure isn't due to the resveratrol. We don't have to resort to theoretical arguments to rebut the idea that you can get an effective systemic dose of resveratrol from a transdermal formulation; we have published data now where the transdermal flux of resveratrol has been measured. It's crappy. Very little gets in. You have to read the paper and look at the results in order to see this; the abstract is misleading. "Very little" does not mean none. If you want to deliver resveratrol to skin or near-surface tissue, you can probably do it transdermally. We have a lot of anecdotal evidence to that effect. You just aren't going to get a systemic effect unless the effect requires only extremely minute amounts of resveratrol.

Bottom line on Sustain alpha: it contains some lipophilic compounds that are reasonable candidates for transdermal delivery and are probably responsible for its effects, but they aren't resveratrol.

[Anthony_Loera]

What is your opinion on the acetylated resveratrol. I saw where the manufacturer was on here when they were bringing it to market, but I have not found any testimonials on here where anyone used it. It is quite a bit more expensive than trans resveratrol. I am at the point of buying either the Reverse or another brand that is trans and would like to hear some feedback from someone that has used both.

Was this the stuff where they acetylated all three of the hydroxyls? (If so, I'm kinda skeptical.) The version that would be good would be acetylated at the 4'-OH. Can you actually buy an acetylated version now? I haven't seen it. Do you have a link to it?

Why would it be better to have it acetylated at the 4'OH?
http://www.nutraplan...0-capsules.html

This uses a proprietary blend, which does not state how much of the res you are getting.

That's usually a sign that you may not be getting much, specially if they state that the Tri-Acetylated Resveratrol in the mix is Patent Pending. If they were not afraid that it could not be patented, the mix would have details of the amount of milligrams that you are actually putting in your body.

So far it appears that this product may not have much res, and that the res it does contain cannot be patented.

Now if it does it work like trans-res, well that's a whole other argument in and of itself.

Cheers
A

[maxwatt]

What is your opinion on the acetylated resveratrol. I saw where the manufacturer was on here when they were bringing it to market, but I have not found any testimonials on here where anyone used it. It is quite a bit more expensive than trans resveratrol. I am at the point of buying either the Reverse or another brand that is trans and would like to hear some feedback from someone that has used both.

Was this the stuff where they acetylated all three of the hydroxyls? (If so, I'm kinda skeptical.) The version that would be good would be acetylated at the 4'-OH. Can you actually buy an acetylated version now? I haven't seen it. Do you have a link to it?

Why would it be better to have it acetylated at the 4'OH?
http://www.nutraplan...0-capsules.html

Action of resveratrol on the sirtuin genes depends on having an OH in both the 2 and 5 position on the A ring. Acetylating these positions prevents the molecule from fitting into the Sirtuin gene receptor. The 4' position on the B ring is more amenable to modification, and an acetyl group at this location makes the molecule more bioavailable, and easily taken into the body's cells where it remains active. It is easy to actylate all the OH groups on a resveratrol molecule; getting just the 4' is not an easy process; the synthesis described in journal articles calls for expensive precursors. Any acetylated resveratrol you see advertised as a supplement is likely a tri-acetylated and inactive marketing gimmick.

Another variation on resverarol mentioned in this forum by someone who was thinking of synthesizing it, is a resveratrol molecule that is methoxylated in the 3', 4' and 5' positions of the B ring. This may be active in activating Sirtuin genes, and it is reported to cause less gastric distress than does resveratrol, which is a problem for some people. However, there are no published papers that I've seen on this molecule regarding Sirtuin activation. So it may work, but it's terra incognito.

[michael084]

I went to their forum after you mentioned this and someone had asked how much res was in it and here is the reply. This reply was from the admin. You would think he would know how much is in his product. Not good.
so how much is it equal to about?

also how long should one bottle last approx.??
"I honestly don't want to give a solid answer on this because frankly I don't know. If we had as much money as big pharma we would be able to have a vast amount of studies published on this but unfortunately we don't. I do have plans to run a few clinical studies on the effectiveness of it to check and see how high blood levels get using the acetylated version, but as of right now we don't have it."

[niner]

I went to their forum after you mentioned this and someone had asked how much res was in it and here is the reply. This reply was from the admin. You would think he would know how much is in his product. Not good.
so how much is it equal to about?

also how long should one bottle last approx.??
"I honestly don't want to give a solid answer on this because frankly I don't know. If we had as much money as big pharma we would be able to have a vast amount of studies published on this but unfortunately we don't. I do have plans to run a few clinical studies on the effectiveness of it to check and see how high blood levels get using the acetylated version, but as of right now we don't have it."

That's pretty scary, but the thing I worry about even more is what exactly is in the bottle. What was the acetylating agent they used in the synthesis, and is any of it still hanging around, ready to randomly acetylate molecules in your body that you would rather not be acetylated? This is really a human Guinea Pig scenario.

[VampIyer]

Sustain Alpha is primarily transdermal delivery of 7,8 benzoflavone I'd say. What else has 7,8 benzoflavone? I've only seen 5,6 version.

I wonder what we can dig up on these benzoflavones...

I have seen the discussions about this product,and they seem very positive. People are reporting increases in test using Primordial's "testosterone recovery stack," which includes a tocotrienol product (apparently to enhance testicular sensitivity to LH) and a Phosphatidyl serine product to lower cortisol. The Toco8 + Sustain are probably doing most of the work.

About the tri-acetylated res:

Interaction of resveratrol and its trimethyl and triacetyl derivatives with biomembrane models studied by differential scanning calorimetry.
Full Abstract
The interaction of resveratrol (trans-3,5,4'-trihydroxystilbene) and two of its derivatives (3,5,4'-tri-O-methylresveratrol and 3,5,4'-tri-O-triacetylresveratrol) with biomembrane models, represented by dimyristoylphosphatidylcholine (DMPC) multilamellar vesicles (MLV), has been studied by differential scanning calorimetry (DSC). The analysis of MLV prepared in the presence of increasing molar fraction of such compounds has been carried out to reveal their maximum interaction with biomembrane models. The results from these studies have been compared with kinetic experiments results, in order to detect the entity and rate of compound absorption by the biomembrane models. The findings indicate that the compounds affected the thermotropic properties of DMPC MLV by suppressing the pretransition peak and broadening the DMPC main phase transition calorimetric peak and shifting it to lower temperatures. The order of effectiveness found was resveratrol > trimethylresveratrol > triacetylresveratrol. The kinetic experiments reveal that in an aqueous medium the absorption of resveratrol by the biomembranes models is allowed, whereas the absorption of its derivatives is hindered; in contrast when a lipophilic medium is employed, all three compounds are easily absorbed.

-----------

They used a non-selective process and just acetylated all hydroxyl I guess.

[2tender]

I also registered today. A person was asking about Res. on other boards and Imminst was mentioned as a source of information on Res. I doubt that anyone is trying to tout this product, there is a great interest in Res. because this lotion actually works and it was mentioned in discussions on other boards, that the effectiveness of this product was primarily the result of Resveratrol. There is another transdermal Res. product that doesnt seem to be selling well or have much effect as Ive never seen it discussed anywhere.I have used Res. from LEF over a decade ago it did give an enhanced feeling of well being and stamina, but it also induced frequent peristalsis. I am looking to incorporate a Res. product into my regimen, hopefully now there is better technology in the manufacture of this product. I am thinking of trying the Tween product, if any one can give feedback on that please do so. Weight lifters want to live forever to and not all of them use anabolics.

[2tender]

I have used it a few times now. It is the only resveratrol product I have used besides a liquid I bought at Sam's Club. It is what really brought me here to do more research on resveratrol. It is about $50 for a months supply. The feeling of well-being, energy and libido are great. It has some other ingredients in it as well. When you come off a steroid cycle you have none of these, and the meds you use to restore natural testosterone production just make all these symptoms worse. The company that makes it has a very good transdermal delivery system, their DHEA product (which also contains resveratrol) is the only DHEA product I have ever used that did anything for me. It is not just any cream that you can put things into and expect to get good absorption. I am also looking into IBE Reverse which has been talked about on here. I intend on trying it in the near future.

This looks suspiciously like one of those sock-puppet "discussions" manufacturers engage in to tout their products. Both bigsend and michael084 joined today.

Trans-dermal delivery cannot result in sufficient blood serum levels of resveratrol to do much of anything as was discussed in these forums HERE

Now, there is finally some research on topical and transdermal delivery of RESV. I haven't have a chance to read the entire paper yet, but I'm posting it here.

Based upon the new research, I'm curious about what you guys think?

Using their best formulation, they measured a flux of 2 nm/cm^2 hr. If you use a rather gigantic 200 square cm patch, that would give you 400 nm per hour, or 0.09 milligrams/hour. So that's not going to work too well. That also doesn't take into account the amount that gets held up in the subcutaneous tissues. During that entire hour, the liver is happily conjugating the resveratrol, so unless you can get it in orders of magnitude faster, you'll never see a significant amount in the plasma.

Thanks for the link! Sorry these posts seemed like that to you. People want to go to the best informative site available. Imminist is it for Res. information.