41 replies to this topic

[Pike]

hey everyone, sorry for not keeping regular with my updates

in the interest of keeping you all informed, i'm going to skip making the big entries between now and my last one, and will soon just be posting a big summary of what i've been experiencing so far.

my apologies imminst.

-Pike

[bgwithadd]

I've tried higher idedenone after reading some studies. 400mg. I do notice an effect. Reading more, it does a LOT of stuff I'd not realized, including potentiating neurotransmitters so it's very likely you got a big boost if you took it with your amphetamines. Tonight my teeth were hurting and jitters all over, so I decided to take 4x my normal dose of magnesium and BAM, all gone. Now I feel absolutely fine. Don't worry, I didn't take it at the same time as the amphetamines.

[demitriden]

hey everyone, sorry for not keeping regular with my updates

in the interest of keeping you all informed, i'm going to skip making the big entries between now and my last one, and will soon just be posting a big summary of what i've been experiencing so far.

my apologies imminst.

-Pike

PIKE!!!
I gotta say I love your posts/responses to threads, they have been very helpful to me!
I too take ADD medication (dexedrine 5-15mg a day) hoping to supplement noots for energy and cognitive clarity for studying the LSATs.

Hope you bring updates soon, Pike buddy.

Edited by demitriden, 25 January 2009 - 05:48 PM.

[Pike]

Hey everyone, Pike here!

Just letting you all know that at the moment I'm writing my big collective summary for the past couple weeks and I do sincerely apologize for not updating!

[Pike]

Hey everyone, sorry I haven't been updating this log The availability to make long, time-marked posts has been rather scarce lately. In fact, it still is quite scarce. Due to such, I will be simply making a giant post of cliffs/observations/reflections about my recent nootropic use:



Giant summary of stuff!



- I responded well to the Unique Nutrition brand of L-Huperzine A, however, the 200mcg tablet form of it from Source Naturals is decidedly a better quality product.

- Due to my consistent first-time response to the nootropics I introduce, I have eliminated my rule to myself of introducing a new nootropic once every 2 weeks, seeing as the major point of setting such a rule to begin with was to allow my body time to grow accustomed to each one. Therefore, I will post my newly planned regimen at the end of this post.

- I have grown to very much like the long-term effects of Idebenone. It seems the 18 hour biological half-life of it leads me to believe that it's a nootropic which becomes cumulative in effect over time. I will say that I can confirm this belief from first-hand experience; however, I did see noticeable results every time I experimented with high-dose Idebenone administration (410mg per admin, 2x a day).

- High-dose vasodilator administration should probably be used very sparingly if one's regimen is synergistic with vasodilators and cerebral blood flow enhancers. Taking 1000mg Centrophenoxine, 10mg Vinpocetine, and a 400mg dose of Sulbutiamine led to a spontaneous nose-bleed about 2 hours later. If one's regimen is synergy-based, I recommend reducing the intake of each noot to avoid such problems.

- Centrophenoxine is an absolutely fantastic nootropic for the effects it promises as a DMAE agent. However, I believe that at this point that it should NOT be used as a main choline source, because I am finding that it takes me roughly 1500mg+ of Centro to get rid of whatever ACh complications I happen to experience (i.e. headaches or brain fog). If one were to be taking Centro, I'd recommend taking it with some food and starting at low dosages of about 250mg, then work your way up to 500mg whilst using another ACh precursor like citrate, bitartrate, CDPC, or AGPC depending on your income. If you have the disposable income, 750mg feels terrific, and at about 1000mg spaced out in 2 administrations is awesome. I say such things because I have experimented with Centro on days where I do not take any Piracetam (thus, eliminating my need of ACh precursors) and have found that it's effects are much more profound.

- I have recently ordered The Capsule Machine for size "0" capsules, and will soon be ordering a YEAR'S supply of bulk powders I will then be mixing all of the bulk powders into one giant mix of evenly distributed noots, and will begin encapsulating them all. After I have all of them capped up, I will start spacing out my regimens into 12, repeat twelve lower dose administrations rather than 3 or 4 high dose ones in order to have a consistently increased blood level of nootropics running through my body throughout the entire day. My theory of it is that the constantly elevated blood levels of noots being reinforced every hour to hour and a half will potentiate the effects dramatically. In essence, I'm turning my entire day into one giant accumulation of noots.

- I have found a remarkably charming site for those people who enjoy capping their own supplements. http://www.capsuline.com is an encapsulation site which seems to be the only empty-capsule seller that has the options of COLORED empty capsules, as well as FLAVORED empty capsules, for those of you feel like your clear gelatin caps could use a bit of style. I just thought I'd let you guys know about this one. They seem to be a bit over-priced for the regular clear caps, however, I think the price they ask for the colored and flavored caps is more than reasonable for such a unique product-service.

- I desperately want a Profill100. It's awesome. It rocks. It's totally unnecessary for personal use and I have no real use in having one whatsoever. I want it.

- For quite some time, I was buying into the whole notion that Relentless Improvement was the "quality" dealer of noots until I realized the undeniable fact that all of the vendors, including the respected ones, were screaming that racetams (which are essentially the lifeblood of the nootropic market, in one aspect) were to be banned substances soon and that the vendors would no longer be supplying them, nor restocking their shelves FOREVER. Yet, all of the vendors who were previously out of the racetams had remarkably restocked their shelves all at the same time. I've grown skeptical of the validity behind the statements from the nootropic industry, however, that doesn't mean I'm not going to shop for them anymore It simply means that I've had my confidence shaken, and will from this point NEVER exercise any form of brand loyalty again. From now on, whoever has the cheapest price and has been established for a decent time in the nootropic community has my vote. I may try other brands just for product differentiation, but my doing so will be rather limited, and probably coincidental due to whatever vendor may be currently selling that product for the lowest price.

- I am extremely eager to try Hydergine, and will most likely be cycling a bottle of it sometime in the near future. When I do, I will most assuredly be buying the sublingual solution bottle.

- I have many reservations about Deprenyl. However, after reading more and more about its effective treatment of ADHD I can't help but find myself interested, and slowly removing some of aforementioned reservations.

- I find the anecdotal reports of Aniracetam to be too intriguing, and have decided that it will undoubtedly be the next nootropic introduced into my regimen if I continue one-at-a-time new administration.

- Taking L-Huperzine A without food seems to decrease its efficacy for me and increase the side effects such as stomach aches and diarrhea. Taking it with food does the exact opposite for me.

- Life Extension’s brand of Huperzine A is coupled with Vitamin E, and seeing as they ARE a company I consider respectable, I have experimented with supplementing a soft-gel supplement of Vitamin E - 400mg with my intake of Huperzine A and have found exponentially positive differences between taking Hup with and without Vitamin E. Needless to say, Vitamin E is an enhancing factor.

- In relation to the above observation, Pantothenic acid (aka Vitamin b-5) has a noticeable change in efficacy on Huperzine.

- Combining Huperzine A with an ACh precursor, vitamin B5, and vitamin E was absolutely amazing on memory, and seemed to eliminate all gastrointestinal side effects that I experience with Huperzine. It should be noted that the above were always taken with food when the observation was made.

- Taking AChE Inhibitors, in my observed opinion, is more effective than taking precursors. However, I'd recommend that if one wants to make inhibitors a large influence on their regimen, that they use two different inhibitors such as Huperzine and Galantamine, and only take them once every 3 days This way, you still have your inhibitory affect on your AChE levels, and are only taking the same substance once every six days I think this kind of administration is responsible enough to alleviate some anxiety I had about tolerance and regulation issues.

- At this point in time, Piracetam at almost any dose seems to have a positive effect up to the 7200mg marker, after which, brain fog occurs unfailingly.

- On a day that I had lots of extra time, I experimented with a multiple administration 1-day regimen and managed to pull of 8 administrations of Piracetam. The first two in the day were 920mg of Piracetam coupled with about 500mg of Centro, the final six admins were about 460mg of Piracetam with 250mg Centro powder. Each one was spaced out about 2 hours apart from each other All administrations had a small amount of Idebenone and Sulbutiamine in it, as well I concluded on that day that my theory for multiple medium to small dose administrations was true on these. However, the theory did not hold true for Sulbutiamine administration, which leads me to believe that Sul needs a minimum amount of concentration before it "triggers" in my body

- The following day, I pulled off the same regimen, this time adding about (as close to as I could get) 200mg of Sulbutiamine in each administration and finished the day off with GREAT success. My conclusion is that for my body-weight (roughly 75kg), the "activating concentration" of Sulbutiamine lies between about a 100 to 200mg minimum.

- To further develop the theory, I experimented with a multiple administration system using a DECREASED amount of ACh precursor (about only 250mg for every 920 scoop and as close to 125 as I could get for the 460mg admins). The results from this experiment were rather strange, for the duration of the first 4 administrations, ACh complications DID occur, and a headache was experienced, however, after that, the exact opposite occurred and had a mental clarity throughout the day that I can't even begin to describe. Amazing.

- To put the finishing touches on my multiple-administration methods, I replicated the same experiment the following week and this time, used a proportionally increased amount of ACh precursor for the first 2 admins, and then a decreased amount for the remaining ones, and found no ACh complications whatsoever.

- To instill a "control group" kind of effect on my multi-admin technique, I used just a standard 250mg of Centro coupled with 460mg of Piracetam across the board for 8 admins and found the results of this test to be identical with that of the previously "best results" experiment The conclusions I arrive to is as such:

è For multiple-administration technique to be thoroughly effective, one can start one's day off with some slightly higher-potency beginning administrations, followed by lowered amounts of the regimen, OR a consistently equal amount of nootropic re-introduced into the body at each administration.

è Multiple administrations of the day's regimen are consistently more effective than larger dose regimens with fewer admins. However, it appears there is a certain "activator" potency that some nootropics need in order to begin efficacy.

- After pondering on the "activator potency" theory I had, I experimented with the minimum amount of noot to be noticed at any level during the multi-admin technique, and found the following results in rough estimates:

Piracetam - about 250mg minimum

Centrophenoxine- 125 to 250mg minimum; scattered inconclusive results

Sulbutiamine - undetermined amount ranging from 100mg (inactive) to 200mg (observably active)

Idebenone - seemingly active at all potencies

Huperzine A - 25mcg (I just crushed the 200mcg tablet and split the powder 8 times)

FINALLY: With my great response rating to the noots I introduce, I've augmented my future prospective nootropic regimen to:
Piracetam - 300mg x12 admins (totalling 3600mg)
Oxiracetam - 100mg x12
Aniracetam - 250mg x12
Alpha-GPC - 11mg x12 (i'll figure this out)
Centrophenoxine - 22mg x12 (same)
Idebenone - 15mg x 12 (ditto)
Sulbutiamine - 200mg x8 (in a drink)

I'll think of some more later. Anyway, enjoy the updated log, Hope some of the info proves useful to you all!

edit: Thank you Dimitriden! It's good to hear someone enjoys my long log posts and ramblings. Means a lot to me =D

Edited by Pike, 28 January 2009 - 05:30 AM.

[KTMAdv]

Pike- keep this coming. Your accounts of everything are priceless and you should seek sponsorship by one of the bulk sales companies ASAP - you are selling far more of this stuff than any other form of marketing IMO.

They also very closely parallel my own experiences which I have just not made time to log or note down. I'm getting so much done and moving on with so many unfinished projects that it seems like it will be better to reflect on the contrast as a result of use when I'm caught up rather than chronicle the increments of progress as you are doing here.

Keep it up, man!

[Duke]

^

... But there's a hazard in the average man taking his word. Truly no offense, but he has ADD, and I have tried most of these supplements for my own reasons (I do not have ADD). Most have very subtle effects, hardly as powerful as Pike experiences. Point being, take this with a grain of salt, unless you have ADD or some other neurological oddity.

And that is precisely what I don't like about this thread. It pushes normal people over the edge into buying these supps when more often than not, these supps won't do much for a healthy mind.

Don't take my use of "normal" and "oddity" to heart, they're merely used to get my message across.

Edited by Duke, 11 February 2009 - 07:02 PM.

[KTMAdv]

... But there's a hazard in the average man taking his word. Truly no offense, but he has ADD...

Assuming that it only helps ADD-inflicted people, even if it's 5% of the population, this stuff is still a huge revelation to the human race. Some estimates indicate that up to 20% of the human race could be classified as ADD.

My personal observation has been that it has nothing to do with whether you have ADD or any other mental deficiency or not - noticing the ways in which they improve cognition has more to do with awareness of one's own thoughts and body than with any disease or "normalcy". No offense, but consider the possibility that maybe they can enhance you just as much as they do Pike - and yet you simply just weren't aware of the changes because they are so comprehensive - and subtle - at the same time.

I fell into this boat when I first started - but when I started measuring typing speed and reading speed and productivity, and looked back at my usual procrastination times versus now, the contrast was stark.

Edited by KTMAdv, 11 February 2009 - 07:30 PM.

[suspire]

^

... But there's a hazard in the average man taking his word. Truly no offense, but he has ADD, and I have tried most of these supplements for my own reasons (I do not have ADD). Most have very subtle effects, hardly as powerful as Pike experiences. Point being, take this with a grain of salt, unless you have ADD or some other neurological oddity.

And that is precisely what I don't like about this thread. It pushes normal people over the edge into buying these supps when more often than not, these supps won't do much for a healthy mind.

Don't take my use of "normal" and "oddity" to heart, they're merely used to get my message across.

I would have to agree. I've taken a large majority of these substances and experienced none of the effects Pike has experienced, or if there was some impact, it was so minimal that I could not notice it. I think it very much varies by person and what you might be trying to accomplish with it (in Pike's case, the ADD).

That said, I do appreciate the log. It is interesting and if I see him report some success with something I haven't tried before, that I find to be safe, I may give it a go.

[borra]

I am really enjoying your log, Pike. Could you post an update on what you are taking and your dosages now. Have you introduced anything new into your regiment?

[invictus]

Pike, this is my first post. I'm new here so be gentle; I'm in college, ADD, and interested in Nootropics (actually just received my Piracetam/DMAE). My goal is too safely and effectively use nootropics with respect to my ADD med. use (which, in terms of dose, is no where near the amounts you take. I only take 20mg Vyvanse 5 days a week, and maybe 75% of a 20mg Adderall XR). FYI, 20mg Vyvanse is like, 5mg Adderall IR, although the Vyvanse lasts longer- in general, I find Vyvanse to be highly superior to Adderall. Anyways, i've been reading a lot YOUR posts because you seem very knowledgeable, and we are in very similar situations. I'm 5'10 175 lbs in great shape, very physically active; high metabolism, eat healthy. The only supplements I take are Vitamin D (D3) 1000-2000 IU, some Zinc, and a Multi-Vitamin. I take these once per day.


I'm interested in this statement that you made in your log, on Jan 28, 2009 (post #35):

"- At this point in time, Piracetam at almost any dose seems to have a positive effect up to the 7200mg marker, after which, brain fog occurs unfailingly."

Now, I didn't read through every detail in your log, as I plan to do tomorrow, but I did bookmark others posts of yours where you describe why you shouldn't combine piracetam use with amphetamine use. This is beyond me; I am studying biology (pre-med) but I don't read about these subjects too much so I couldn't follow.

Here's the thread where you talk about not combining piracetam/adderall:
http://www.imminst.o...o...c=34909&hl=

Now I have a few questions:
1. The first statemet, "Piracetam at any dose..." was made WHILE you were using ADD meds (high amount). Is this correct?
2. Do you still take Adderall? Piracetam? How do you cycle each and when did you stop using the Piracetam (assuming you did so)?
3. I just recieved my Piracetam; Can you help me develop a small nootropic regimen? Such as a small amount of Piracetam in the morning with my coffee before class?

But basically my main question is whether or not "low dose" amphetamine use (dextroamphetmine/vyvanse) would be safe with use of Piracetam, in both the short and long term. I classify "low dose" amphetamine use at around 20mg Vyvanse. I do have some Adderall XR 20mg, but don't use it often. If I do though, I never use more than 20mg.

Edited by invictus, 14 February 2010 - 03:33 AM.

[Pike]

haha oh my! it's been a while since i had looked at this thing. well, seeing as you left me a nice detailed post, i'll do my best to answer it.

Pike, this is my first post. I'm new here so be gentle; I'm in college, ADD, and interested in Nootropics (actually just received my Piracetam/DMAE). My goal is too safely and effectively use nootropics with respect to my ADD med. use (which, in terms of dose, is no where near the amounts you take. I only take 20mg Vyvanse 5 days a week, and maybe 75% of a 20mg Adderall XR). FYI, 20mg Vyvanse is like, 5mg Adderall IR, although the Vyvanse lasts longer- in general, I find Vyvanse to be highly superior to Adderall. Anyways, i've been reading a lot YOUR posts because you seem very knowledgeable, and we are in very similar situations. I'm 5'10 175 lbs in great shape, very physically active; high metabolism, eat healthy. The only supplements I take are Vitamin D (D3) 1000-2000 IU, some Zinc, and a Multi-Vitamin. I take these once per day.

well, right off the bat i'd reccomend you add some omega-3, magnesium, vitamin b-6, and perhaps some DLPA/l-tyrosine&5-htp. all have shown to be significant aids to ADHD. things you could think about adding are b-12, SAM-e, and green tea

I'm interested in this statement that you made in your log, on Jan 28, 2009 (post #35):

"- At this point in time, Piracetam at almost any dose seems to have a positive effect up to the 7200mg marker, after which, brain fog occurs unfailingly."

Now, I didn't read through every detail in your log, as I plan to do tomorrow, but I did bookmark others posts of yours where you describe why you shouldn't combine piracetam use with amphetamine use. This is beyond me; I am studying biology (pre-med) but I don't read about these subjects too much so I couldn't follow.

Here's the thread where you talk about not combining piracetam/adderall:
http://www.imminst.o...o...c=34909&hl=

well, to understand why i have such a concern over combining the two, you should do some research into the AMPA/NMDA glutamate receptors, and perhaps a bit into ampakine pharmaceuticals. i think i have an elaborate explanation somewhere on these boards but the Joe-Schmo explanation would be this:
>>> piracetam, if a certain patent is correct, basically "primes" the NMDA receptor for intaking glutamate. not only that, but it also ramps up the amount of NMDA receptors you get. then we have our ADHD medications, majority of which are stimulants, and while their therapeutic effects are largely credited to their catecholamine mechanisms, most of them also trigger glutamate release. glutamate is your entire body's main excitatory neurotransmitter (basically meaning it's the main tool our body uses to trigger neurons to fire).
>>> THIS is where we get concerned. you see, piracetam, if it indeed holds its purported nootropic value, would attribute a big portion of its memory enhancing effects BECAUSE it allows a nice little boost in glutamate communication, and makes it easier for your brain to fire off those same neurons it was working. ADHD meds, in your case lisdexamphetamines, will trigger more glutamate to be released, and by itself, this glutamate release could potentially also be a reason that amphetamines are used as memory/concentration aids. BUT, combining the two together and you will have TOO MUCH glutamate firing off into your NMDA receptors, which have pretty much been left "defenseless" and thats when your neurons start vanishing. poof, neurons dead. the words that the pubmed&whatnot articles will refer to is "excitotoxicity" or "glutamate mediated neurotoxicity" to describe it. at some point in time, i hope to make a big giant post about ampa and nmda receptors and their relation to neurotoxicity but just haven't gotten around to it yet.

SO, in one sentence: it would be unwise to combine the two because doing so could very potentially lead to neurotoxicity, which is also a BIG factor in amphetamine tolerance, aside from catecholamine downregulation.

Now I have a few questions:
1. The first statemet, "Piracetam at any dose..." was made WHILE you were using ADD meds (high amount). Is this correct?

yes, this is correct. BUT, at the time, i hadn't responsibly done the research on what the combination was doing to me. in fact, to this day, i attribute probably 80% of my amphetamine tolerance to the combination of Adderall and the nootropics i was taking. My tolerance expanded so rapidly while taking piracetam that my prescription is now for 50mg Adderall a day.

2. Do you still take Adderall? Piracetam? How do you cycle each and when did you stop using the Piracetam (assuming you did so)?

Adderall is taken ON OCCASION. Piracetam, almost never. If you were to cycle piracetam, i'd make sure it was a cycle that was conducted while you DON'T take your prescription amphetamines. I stopped using piracetam when i started using Memantine, which, to this day, is probably the drug that i am most satisfied with out of everything ever i've tried.

3. I just recieved my Piracetam; Can you help me develop a small nootropic regimen? Such as a small amount of Piracetam in the morning with my coffee before class?

sure! i'll do my best to help you build one, but as you can see, the regimen i'd give my advice on would NOT include piracetam (unless you're quitting amphetamine treatment). PM me if you'd like and we'll get started.

But basically my main question is whether or not "low dose" amphetamine use (dextroamphetmine/vyvanse) would be safe with use of Piracetam, in both the short and long term. I classify "low dose" amphetamine use at around 20mg Vyvanse. I do have some Adderall XR 20mg, but don't use it often. If I do though, I never use more than 20mg.

well, i'm sure its "safe" enough in that you certainly have no health complications to worry about and won't die from taking the two. "safe" in terms of whether or not the combination could be detrimental to your goals of ADD treatment is a different story, to which my opinion is a resounding no. sorry if my POV is a bit discouraging, but i'd hate to see someone else make the same piracetam mistake i made and be left in the same situation as me. anyway, i wish you the best of luck!


----

aside from all of that, i'd like to make a big disclaimer to anyone who's read my log as well as my more recent posts that: i started this log when i was taking nootropics VERY irresponsibly and although the nootropics DID help for memory, my desired concentration/attentiveness was never fully achieved. had i researched what i was getting into FULLY before i took these noots, my nootropic experience would have been drastically different.

Edited by Pike, 17 February 2010 - 10:20 AM.