22 replies to this topic

[EmbraceUnity]

I am doing my best to convert to my own form of veganism, but I have some concerns. Some of the problems with veganism, such as vitamin B12 and carnosine deficiency are eliminated by my supplementation regimen. Yet, a main concern of mine is soy, which is hard to avoid in a vegan diet. Most good vegan food like Amy's brand or those organic food bars contain soy. I know it is a big controversy as to whether soy has estrogenic effects on men, and I know it is used extensively in Asia without huge problems. Nevertheless, I still have concerns about long-term consumption.

I heard resveratrol can counteract some of the problems, so I am planning to up my dosage on that. Also, I already take other supplements known to promote proper testosterone function, such as Saw Palmetto, Broccoli Extract, and Green Tea. Should I look into 6-OXO? I really don't want to give up soy.

Until cultured meat is invented, I plan to use meat substitutes if they are healthy and vegan. The main problems with the meat substitutes I have been able to find is that either they use Soy, Gluten, or aren't vegan. Seitan is very tasty, but I have heard concerns about gluten causing inflammation. Quorn also looks pretty good, but they use eggs in the production process.

I am an athlete and strength trainer for immortalist reasons. As such, I am concerned about optimal protein consumption. I know it is possible to get adequate protein from sources like beans, nuts, seeds, quinoa, etc, but it isn't that practical.

Since my main rationale for avoiding animal products is to prevent suffering, I do plan on supplementing my diet with small invertebrates like shrimp, mussels, clams, etc. I do not believe these creatures are capable of experiencing pain nor are they raised in factory farming conditions. I may also make occasional exceptions for, say, wild alaskan salmon. Yet, I cannot live on this alone either. Since veggie burgers and such have progressed so far that they are now quite appetizing, it would be nice to bite into one without worrying about my health.

Any tips? I know there are other people in my situation here.

As for you deluded meat eaters, I know there are supposedly humanely raised animals out there, but I am highly skeptical considering all the cruelty that domesticated animals regularly endure (confinement, slaughter, disease, branding, castration, hormones, antibiotics, debeaking, etc etc). Unless I raised and slaughtered the animal humanely myself, I couldn't be sure. Also, I'm a college student. I don't have the funds or the space for a big meat freezer to store a side of moose meat.

[Forever21]

I've used Raw Vegan Protein Powder



I read from SavvyVegetarian that B12 is not a concern. I supplemented with Carnosine and avoided soy before. Protein source was mainly legumes + the powder.

[EmbraceUnity]

I've used Raw Vegan Protein Powder



I read from SavvyVegetarian that B12 is not a concern. I supplemented with Carnosine and avoided soy before. Protein source was mainly legumes + the powder.

Thank you so much, that protein powder does look good. I still have a bit of Jarrow Whey powder left, and when I am done with it I will pick this up. I won't get the benefits of lactoferrin and so forth, but being vegan is more important to me.

[DukeNukem]

I know it is a big controversy as to whether soy has estrogenic effects on men, and I know it is used extensively in Asia without huge problems.

Asian's use less soy that widely advertised within the states (most often by company's selling soy products). And in all of my dealings with Asians, soy was never a part of a meal (except maybe miso soup) -- they much prefer fish, for example. But the key is that the soy eaten in Asia is almost always sprouted/fermented (kills off a lot of the toxins, such as lectins, another key hazard of most grains). Again, the ancient wisdom of preparing grains is smarter than our industrial wisdom. In America, practically all soy is hideous crap -- especially the soy used in all of those frozen soy burgers, or soy milks, and other pretend soy meats/hot dogs/etc. Most of them are also pumped full of gluten, just to add to the anti-health fun.

Another issue of still unknown importance is the fact that most soy used in the States now is genetic engineered. Unexpectedly, this is proving to be quite harmful to certain insects already, because the proteins expressed by these GMOs are different, and are having unintended consequences. Not sure I'd want to stick my hand into that fire. The estrogenic effects only add to the fun.

[rwac]

Don't forget, Soy isoflavones are also goitrogenic.

[DukeNukem]

Quick update on lectins, since I mentioned them above. Nice little article here.

Agrarian diet and diseases of affluence – Do evolutionary novel dietary lectins cause leptin resistance?

Background
The global pattern of varying prevalence of diseases of affluence, such as obesity, cardiovascular disease and diabetes, suggests that some environmental factor specific to agrarian societies could initiate these diseases.

Presentation of the hypothesis
We propose that a cereal-based diet could be such an environmental factor. Through previous studies in archaeology and molecular evolution we conclude that humans and the human leptin system are not specifically adapted to a cereal-based diet, and that leptin resistance associated with diseases of affluence could be a sign of insufficient adaptation to such a diet. We further propose lectins as a cereal constituent with sufficient properties to cause leptin resistance, either through effects on metabolism central to the proper functions of the leptin system, and/or directly through binding to human leptin or human leptin receptor, thereby affecting the function.

[suspire]

Since my main rationale for avoiding animal products is to prevent suffering, I do plan on supplementing my diet with small invertebrates like shrimp, mussels, clams, etc. I do not believe these creatures are capable of experiencing pain

You may want to reconsider your desire to eat the aforementioned, if lobsters are any indication. You should read "Consider the Lobster" by the late, great David Foster Wallace:
http://www.gourmet.c...r?currentPage=1

If you don't want to read the entire article (and I highly recommend that you do--just for the sheer quality of his writing), skip to page 5 and start at the last paragraph.

Considering how much pain lobsters seem to be able to feel, I imagine at least shrimp are in the same camp. It wouldn't be a stretch to say mussels, clams, etc are all capable of such as well.

I'm not a vegan myself, nor even a vegetarian, but I figure if you're going to hold a position out of specific convictions, you'd want to be consistent in your philosophical underpinnings.

[Forever21]

I've used Raw Vegan Protein Powder



I read from SavvyVegetarian that B12 is not a concern. I supplemented with Carnosine and avoided soy before. Protein source was mainly legumes + the powder.

Thank you so much, that protein powder does look good. I still have a bit of Jarrow Whey powder left, and when I am done with it I will pick this up. I won't get the benefits of lactoferrin and so forth, but being vegan is more important to me.

I don't recommend it by the way. Grain is evil.

[lunarsolarpower]

I tried the Cranberry & Goat Cheese Chik'n Cutlet from Quorn this break and it was amazing.

[EmbraceUnity]

I don't recommend it by the way. Grain is evil.

That product is supposed to be isolated brown rice protein, meaning it is simply the amino acids. Any of the arguments against grains are moot in this case, and grains aren't so bad if you pick the right ones in moderation.

[EmbraceUnity]

You may want to reconsider your desire to eat the aforementioned, if lobsters are any indication. You should read "Consider the Lobster" by the late, great David Foster Wallace:
http://www.gourmet.c...r?currentPage=1

If you don't want to read the entire article (and I highly recommend that you do--just for the sheer quality of his writing), skip to page 5 and start at the last paragraph.

Considering how much pain lobsters seem to be able to feel, I imagine at least shrimp are in the same camp. It wouldn't be a stretch to say mussels, clams, etc are all capable of such as well.

I'm not a vegan myself, nor even a vegetarian, but I figure if you're going to hold a position out of specific convictions, you'd want to be consistent in your philosophical underpinnings.

Yes, I know about this dispute. It seems to me that suffering requires some amount of self-reflection and consciousness. I know that lobsters have similar neurotransmitters, but overall their nervous system is vastly different and much less complex than that of vertebrates. While they may have similar behavioral responses to negative stimuli, I do not think there is a high likelihood of sentience. Granted, non-zero probabilities should still technically play a role in one's hedonic calculus, but overall I rate the issue of low concern in comparison to vertebrates and especially mammals.

I would rather eat a lobster than drink a glass of milk or eat Quorn processed with eggs.

I'm not opposed to eliminating invertebrates from my diet per se, but I'm just starting this vegan thing and I don't know how hard it will be to find food that is diverse, palatable, and healthy.

Edited by progressive, 04 January 2009 - 03:35 PM.

[Forever21]

I don't recommend it by the way. Grain is evil.

That product is supposed to be isolated brown rice protein, meaning it is simply the amino acids.

which includes Methionine.

Edited by Forever21, 04 January 2009 - 03:46 PM.

[EmbraceUnity]

I know it is a big controversy as to whether soy has estrogenic effects on men, and I know it is used extensively in Asia without huge problems.

Asian's use less soy that widely advertised within the states (most often by company's selling soy products). And in all of my dealings with Asians, soy was never a part of a meal (except maybe miso soup) -- they much prefer fish, for example. But the key is that the soy eaten in Asia is almost always sprouted/fermented (kills off a lot of the toxins, such as lectins, another key hazard of most grains). Again, the ancient wisdom of preparing grains is smarter than our industrial wisdom. In America, practically all soy is hideous crap -- especially the soy used in all of those frozen soy burgers, or soy milks, and other pretend soy meats/hot dogs/etc. Most of them are also pumped full of gluten, just to add to the anti-health fun.

Another issue of still unknown importance is the fact that most soy used in the States now is genetic engineered. Unexpectedly, this is proving to be quite harmful to certain insects already, because the proteins expressed by these GMOs are different, and are having unintended consequences. Not sure I'd want to stick my hand into that fire. The estrogenic effects only add to the fun.

I eat a lot of Amy's brand stuff, and one good thing about them is that everything is free of GMOs. I'm not opposed to genetic modification, just untested corporate dominated GMOs propped up by illegitimate government-sponsored monopolies on lifeforms.

I am still aware that there is a significant probability that soy is a health risk, even if it is organic. I'm looking for alternatives, and I am beginning to find them.

Edited by progressive, 04 January 2009 - 03:49 PM.

[EmbraceUnity]

which includes Methionine.

Virtually all sources of protein do. I am not that interested in methionine restriction, but I could perhaps read up more about it.

[Forever21]

which includes Methionine.

Virtually all sources of protein do. I am not that interested in methionine restriction, but I could perhaps read up more about it.

legumes lack it. specially lentils.

http://www.savvyvege...otein-chart.pdf

anyho, it seems we're vegans for very different reasons. mine is health/longevity so i consider methionine.

what i liked about that powder though is taste. its the best of all vegan protein i've tried.

[EmbraceUnity]

legumes lack it. specially lentils.

http://www.savvyvege...otein-chart.pdf

anyho, it seems we're vegans for very different reasons. mine is health/longevity so i consider methionine.

what i liked about that powder though is taste. its the best of all vegan protein i've tried.

I just found this one

http://www.nutribiot...-chocolate.html

It is much more comparably priced to the Jarrow protein. Have you tried it?

[Forever21]

legumes lack it. specially lentils.

http://www.savvyvege...otein-chart.pdf

anyho, it seems we're vegans for very different reasons. mine is health/longevity so i consider methionine.

what i liked about that powder though is taste. its the best of all vegan protein i've tried.

I just found this one

http://www.nutribiot...-chocolate.html

It is much more comparably priced to the Jarrow protein. Have you tried it?

i've tried nutribiotic's antioxidant one. not the chocolate. i use an organic cacao powder from sunfoods. there's a huge thread in here about cocoa. iron and lead is aconcern. jarrow, i tried hemp.

[EmbraceUnity]

i've tried nutribiotic's antioxidant one. not the chocolate. i use an organic cacao powder from sunfoods. there's a huge thread in here about cocoa. iron and lead is aconcern. jarrow, i tried hemp.

Yea, I remember that one. Chocolate growing is also known for poor working conditions. I still have a bunch of Navitas fair trade cacao powder left, but I remember I couldn't find any information on their lead content. I don't worry too much about the iron since I get hardly any in my diet, but for people on the Standard American Diet I can see it being a problem.

I also purchase Endangered Species brand 88% bars. Those are amazingly good, and they are also Fair Trade. Same story as per lead content.

I think I will mix and match hemp and rice protein powders just so I'm not doing too much of any one thing.

[sthira]

Hey Progressive, I've been following a vegan diet for more than a decade, and I'm doing very well with it. I don't eat soy, however, and agree with the advice given above that there are health concerns with it. I'll extend that line of thought to include just about every manufactured food item that's sitting on a shelf in a pretty package, box, can, container. I don't eat veggie burgers -- I don't know what they are. If I don't know what something is, I get very thoughtful.

Also, I know a lot of vegans, and I can tell you that eating vegan easy, but being healthy takes attention. It's not complicated, and don't get tricked by people who tell you it is complicated. I am very mindful of vegan companies that tell nutritional and environmentalist fairy tales aimed to separate me from my money. Boxes and packages with pretty pictures of flowers and skies and fields and rainforests, or strange magical sounding nutritional declarations -- I don't trust them. These companies will lie to get your money just like Unilever or Cargil will lie to you to get your money.

Eat whole fruits and vegetables, and eat a wide variety of them raw. This is the bedrock of a vegan diet. Every now and then eat some grains, some legumes, some nuts, some seeds. But make whole raw fruits and vegetables your bedrock. Personally, I can't imagine a more enjoyable, pleasant way to live.

I totally support your animal rights and environmental concerns.

[4eva]

I'm not a fan of soy but have to question the hormone issue. Phyto-estrogens are weaker than the body's own hormone. The benefit of phyto-estrogens is that they displace other hormones from binding to receptor sites. There are a number of environmental chemicals that have estrogenic effects on the body. I see the phyto-estrogens as a benefit of soy but I'm still not a big fan of it for other reasons. I don't see how weaker phyto-estrogens can cause hormonal problems for anyone.

I realize your budget is tight but wouldn't stuff like blue green algae be a good source of protein (and B12)? I'm not sure if algae is plant or animal but I'm inclined to think it is a plant. Its supposed to be protein that is assimilated better than animal protein but it is definitely pricey .

[malcasid]

I know it is a big controversy as to whether soy has estrogenic effects on men, and I know it is used extensively in Asia without huge problems.

Asian's use less soy that widely advertised within the states (most often by company's selling soy products). And in all of my dealings with Asians, soy was never a part of a meal (except maybe miso soup) -- they much prefer fish, for example. But the key is that the soy eaten in Asia is almost always sprouted/fermented (kills off a lot of the toxins, such as lectins, another key hazard of most grains). Again, the ancient wisdom of preparing grains is smarter than our industrial wisdom. In America, practically all soy is hideous crap -- especially the soy used in all of those frozen soy burgers, or soy milks, and other pretend soy meats/hot dogs/etc. Most of them are also pumped full of gluten, just to add to the anti-health fun.

Another issue of still unknown importance is the fact that most soy used in the States now is genetic engineered. Unexpectedly, this is proving to be quite harmful to certain insects already, because the proteins expressed by these GMOs are different, and are having unintended consequences. Not sure I'd want to stick my hand into that fire. The estrogenic effects only add to the fun.

I eat a lot of Amy's brand stuff, and one good thing about them is that everything is free of GMOs. I'm not opposed to genetic modification, just untested corporate dominated GMOs propped up by illegitimate government-sponsored monopolies on lifeforms.

I am still aware that there is a significant probability that soy is a health risk, even if it is organic. I'm looking for alternatives, and I am beginning to find them.

I second what DukeNukem has to say about Soy. I would avoid it at all costs. There is a lot of propaganda about soy in North America. Soy is NOT a staple in Asia as they would have you believe. Soy is estrogenic, interferes with the thyroid, has anti nutrients, has enzyme, trypsin, and growth inhibitors. Soy also causes amino acid deficiences, and contains haemagglutinin a blod clotting agent. I would only touch soy if it was fermented, even then I would be cautious.

I would recommend Sun Warrior Sprouted Fermented Brown Rice Protein http://www.sunwarrio...nformation.html or hemp protein.

I am also a big advocate of vegan diets even though I am not a vegan myself. I hope to transition to a 100% vegan diet soon. Agri-business has caused so much harm to our food supply.

I think the only thing you need to be concerned about on a vegan diet is b12 defiency. Then again a lot of meat eaters suffer b12 defiency despite eating meat.

[nowayout]

Since my main rationale for avoiding animal products is to prevent suffering, I do plan on supplementing my diet with small invertebrates like shrimp, mussels, clams, etc. I do not believe these creatures are capable of experiencing pain nor are they raised in factory farming conditions.

Actually a lot of shrimp are in fact raised in farms, often in China, where they are often contaminated with industrial contaminants.

[EmbraceUnity]

Since my main rationale for avoiding animal products is to prevent suffering, I do plan on supplementing my diet with small invertebrates like shrimp, mussels, clams, etc. I do not believe these creatures are capable of experiencing pain nor are they raised in factory farming conditions.

Actually a lot of shrimp are in fact raised in farms, often in China, where they are often contaminated with industrial contaminants.

I suppose this is true. What I meant was that even if they do feel suffering their living conditions are more normal than that of say, cattle or pigs. I have been finding more and more good vegan options all the time, so I don't think shrimp will be on my menu. The reason will be for environmental reasons rather than ethical reasons.