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Orthomolecular regimens


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36 replies to this topic

Poll: Orthomolecular (36 member(s) have cast votes)

How do you feel about orthomolecular regimens?

  1. I've tried an OM regimen and noticed a remarkable improvement (4 votes [10.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.53%

  2. I've tried an OM regimen and noticed a modest improvement (6 votes [15.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.79%

  3. I've tried an OM regimen and noticed no difference (1 votes [2.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  4. I've tried an OM regimen and my condition got worse. (1 votes [2.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  5. I have not tried an OM regimen, but I believe in OM medicine (8 votes [21.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.05%

  6. I have not tried an OM regimen, and do not believe in OM medicine (3 votes [7.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.89%

  7. I have not tried an OM regimen and am ambivalent about OM medicine (5 votes [13.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.16%

  8. I do not know little to nothing about orthomolecular medicine (10 votes [26.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.32%

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#31 niner

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 03:27 AM

To further confound things, I have even less faith in this sulfation and methylation. ...
The doc also recently told me to eat more broccoli and cauliflower because it would "get rid of the sulfates". Mind you this is through his assistant over the phone. Again, the impaired sulfation thing is a little hard to follow. Broccoli contains sulfates, no? I have trouble understanding the physiological role of sulfation;

Hmm. When I think of sulfation, it's in terms of xenobiotic metabolism. Various sulfotransferase enzymes add a sulfate onto foreign substances in order to make them more water soluble and thus more able to be excreted. This is, for example, how our bodies get rid of resveratrol so efficiently. So... is he saying that your xenobiotic sulfation is not up to snuff? Or is this about some entirely different sulfation system? Eat more broccoli? Broccoli contains sulforaphane, which is said to induce phase II metabolic enzymes, according to the Wikipedia article on it. So if the sulfotransferases are in fact induced (caused to be expressed in larger amounts) by sulforaphane, then I can see a spindly connection. "get rid of the sulfates?" Uh, dunno about that.

At any rate I can understand your frustration. I hope that you start feeling better.

#32 StrangeAeons

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 04:35 AM

Funk, all of my supplements are listed a little bit earlier in the thread. To rehash off the top of my head without doses; probiotic, glutamine, chelated iron, EPA/DHA, Mag zinc and calcium chelates, B5, methionine, D3, K complex, pycnogenol, and a multi (alpha base).
As per the sulfate thing, I didn't hear for sure what the assistant was trying to say over the phone. The doc is so used to talking to people who just want him to *sound* scientific that he forgets I have a medical background and actually make an attempt at follow through. She mentioned both broccoli and cauliflower. Given that I'm also on probiotics, I suppose there is some logic in being worried about xenobiotic metabolism.
When I told them that I had some GI issues last week they wanted to send me a "GI test kit". As this was the assistant, again, I wasn't given any more specific details as to what they were testing. I turned it down, partially because those issues passed over; but also because from now on any testing or supplements they recommend will be done through a third party.

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#33 StrangeAeons

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 10:52 PM

UPDATE: Well, I've ditched the orthomolecular doctor. I can see the value in having somebody who thinks outside of the box, does more labs, and has a detailed knowledge of supplements; however, what it came down to was a gastrointestinal issue. This doctor is a psychiatrist. There's no reason whatsoever to see any psychiatrist for a GI problem; so I had my father use his pull at the hospital and schedule me with an actual gastrenterologist. I was also rather ticked when they refused to send me an Rx for third party testing, and gave me a referral to a dietician instead of any sort of explanation for the BS "broccoli removes sulfates" thing. It's especially pernicious when a doctor says things that "sound" scientific but has nothing to back them up.

In my eyes the Orthomolecular route seems to be a good idea either as an adjunctive to mainstream medicine or when convention has failed. Psychiatry failed me, but not because of its treatment modalities; it's because any psychiatric diagnosis is irrelevant in the presence of an underlying morbidity. As such I think this psychiatrist was the best I've had, in that he was good enough to render himself irrelevant. This is the moral I am interpreting from the story.

As per the progress with the regimen, I haven't felt any boost in mood and in fact have been somewhat more depressed lately. This is likely due to a lot of false hope (I can't seem to stop getting my hopes up every time there's a new development). There are three possible reasons I see for not improving from iron replacement:
  • The deficiency extends all the way back into infancy, in which case iron repletion would not cause a full remission of symptoms; this is the ugliest possibility, because it would mean the damage is permanent
  • Malabsorption is making oral iron therapy moot point, and parenteral iron is warranted.; the GI doc had me tested for celiac antibodies, though regardless I imagine a scope is inevitable.
  • There is GI bleeding ocurring in sufficient quantities that iron replacement cannot keep up; I consider this the least likely, as I would think my hemoglobin would be much lower in a bleed; still, the doc gave me a Hemoccult kit. I'm really glad I have a few spare pairs of gloves that I brought home from ambulance shifts, because this is a fairly gross test.


#34 stephen_b

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 09:32 PM

Any thoughts on using lactoferrin as the sole iron source?

Compared to iron, lactoferrin was antifungal (PMID 19579926). Among long distance women runners, iron supplemented runners showed reduced ferritin while lactoferrin supplemented runners had significantly higher red blood cell count (PMID 18391460). In a double blind study of 100 pregnant women (PMID 19639462), participants received either:

one capsule of 100 mg bovine lactoferrin twice a day (Group A; n=49) and 520 mg ferrous sulfate once a day (Group B; n=48) ... In Groups A and B, hemoglobin, serum ferritin and iron were significantly increased while TIBC was significantly reduced in comparison with basal values. No significant differences were observed between Groups A and B. The median scores of abdominal pain and constipation were significantly higher in patients treated with ferrous sulfate in comparison with those treated with bovine lactoferrin. Conclusions. The results show that bovine lactoferrin has the same efficacy as ferrous sulfate in restoring iron deposits with significantly fewer gastrointestinal side effects.


StephenB

#35 Jacovis

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Posted 21 January 2010 - 11:52 AM

About glutamine, I never saw any improvement in digestive health with 3-4g of glutamine (this is roughly what you would get from an average serving of whey protein, in other words, not a significant amount compared to your normal dietary intake). Only at 5 grams 3x daily (15g) have I have seen dramatic improvement in gut health.


FunkOdyssey,
Aren't you worried about the effect of that much free glutamine with regard to possible neurotoxicity if it is converted to glutamate?
For example, I found the below pasted links mentioning the issue...

http://www.restoreun...nic_attacks.htm
...Note – Glutamine is a precursor of GABA. Glutamine is first synthesized to glutamate, then glutamate is synthesized to GABA. However, glutamine in the conversion process to glutamate, can result in neurotoxicity. If you already have poor brain health, glutamine supplementation may not be proper. In healthy subject’s 2 grams of glutamine is often what is recommended. For an ill person, the likely dose would be less than 2 grams. Consult with your doctor before supplementing glutamine; ill health can stress the glutamine to glutamate conversion process leading to neurotoxicity...


http://jn.nutrition....ull/131/9/2556S
(Journal of Nutrition. 2001;131:2556S-2561S.)
© 2001 The American Society for Nutritional Sciences
Supplement

Assessment of the Safety of Glutamine and Other Amino Acids

Peter J. Garlick
State University of New York at Stony Brook, Stony Brook, NY 11794-8191

...All of the above studies were performed in adult subjects. Lacey et al. (1996) , however, investigated the effects of glutamine-supplemented parenteral nutrition [20% of amino acids, equivalent to 0.4 g/(kg · d) glutamine maximum] for 15 d in 44 preterm neonates, who might possibly be more sensitive to adverse effects than adults. Plasma glutamine level rose by 50%, but glutamate and ammonia remained within the normal range. On the basis of the measurements of plasma ammonia and glutamate and the absence of clinical signs of neurotoxicity, it was concluded that glutamine at this dose is safe in preterm infants...

...Neurological effects.

Of the 15 amino acids represented in Table 1 , 9 are associated with neurological or neurotoxic effects, as is high protein intake. Glutamine degradation yields glutamate and ammonia, both of which are known to be neurotoxic, although glutamate has only been shown to be neurotoxic in animal studies (Airoldi et al. 1979). However, in those studies of glutamine safety in which neurological symptoms were assessed, no signs of adverse effects were detected (see above)...

1. Airoldi L., Bizzi A., Salmona M. & Garattini S. (1979) Attempts to establish the safety for neurotoxicity of MSG. Filer L. J., Jr Garattini S. Kare M. R. Reynolds W. A. Wurtoman R. J. eds. Glutamic Acid: Advances in Biochemistry and Physiology 1979:321-331 Raven Press New York, N.Y. ...

32. Lacey J. M., Crouch J. B., Benfell K., Ringer S. A., Wilmore C. K., Maguire D & Wilmore D. W. (1996) The effects of glutamine-supplemented parenteral nutrition in premature infants. J. Parenter. Enteral Nutr. 20:74-80.[Abstract/Free Full Text]...



#36 eason

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 02:46 AM

Both of these, however, are prospective epidemiological studies -- a good study design, to be sure, but still leaving much confounding. The controlled clinical trials have uniformly found no benefit to high-dose vitamin C intake (or any other supplement tested thus far, except for the mixed results on selenium).


When it comes to dietary nutrients, it seems to me that long-term epidemiological studies hold more weight than short clinical trials.

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#37 cheeks

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 01:03 AM

Hi orthomolecular beings! I'm a newbie to this place and after reading many posts here I see I have alot to learn. I was led to this particular thread by a google search for orthomolecular psychiatrists in Sacramento, CA. and Voila up pops this thread. I can completely relate to threadstarter's dilemma with mood swings and conventional psychiatry/drugs. After 18 years of doing this drug and that drug and none of them efficient for long I looked into herbology and alternatives such as supplements and such. I have traveled far to meet with leading physicians only to find out that my finances won't stretch as far as the doctors want me to go. But I'm positive that orthomolecular medicine is suited for me, my symptoms. I'm trying to make this a short post and not bore all of you.

Why I'm here is to actually locate a good orthomolecular physician, preferably a psychiatrist in or around the Sacramento County area. I'm open to going down as south as Santa Cruz and as west as San Francisco. But ultimately, a good experienced orthomedoc in Sacramento County would be best. Any suggestions? I'm so tired of wasting my money on those "healers" who haven't experience with Major Depression or serious mood disorders. It's funny but I always end up teaching them more than getting the kind of help I really need. Know what I'm saying? I've done blood tests up my ol ying yang and still can't find a doctor who will take the time and energy to really get into my case. It's difficult to find an alternative physician who will take insurance but I'm open to all names so please don't hold back on any information you may hold.

Thank you lots!

cheeks

PS. didn't mean to interrupt the great conversation, please email me privately if you feel it's best.




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