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2008-2009 Israeli-Palestinian conflict


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#1 StrangeAeons

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 10:05 PM


Being raised Orthodox Jewish with an incredibly one-sided view of this matter, I find it somewhat difficult to assess this situation objectively. I see the situation is morally complex. I have a solution, though it's a tad insane. Feed the Palestinians. Lace their food with mood stabilizers. It's harder to be mad when you're not starving. It's also harder to be mad when you have lithium flowing through your blood. Hopefully once they calm down Israel will have to cave to international pressure. I'm more serious about this idea than I would like to be, because the situation is such a colossal cyclical cluster%*$#. Ultimately I believe in a single state, with the abolition of a "Jewish" state, and instead the institution of a secular progressive democratic government (which Israel already is for the most part anyways.)
Seriously, though, I would like to know what people here think. I would also like to know what they think the U.S. should do to intervene, and what measures they anticipate Obama will take.

#2 niner

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 10:18 PM

PKR, I pretty much agree with you. I'd like to see the US become a true honest broker, not only for the benefit of the US, but also for the benefit of Israel. I think Israel, like America, has been held hostage by its own fringes for a long time, and we've both been shooting ourselves in our respective feet for some time. The US could provide political cover for Israeli moderates, but who would provide the political cover for American moderates? Time will tell. I think Obama will be better than Bush, but I've not yet seen evidence that he's serious about a solution. Time will tell, I suppose; he has a lot on his plate at the moment.

#3 Cyberbrain

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 10:34 PM

Israel has the right to defend it's self like any other country, but at what price?

Since the war began ...

In Gaza:

1133 dead with and 5150 wounded.

The destruction of hospitals, churches, schools, the university, and now the UN headquarters and UN warehouses which housed almost all the food and medical aid for the refugee camps. Not to mention billions of dollars of destruction of other public and private property.

Several ships from Greece and other countries with food and aid going to Gaza have been told to turn back by Israeli authorities.

In Israel:

(Not counting soldiers) 3 dead and 78 wounded.

With several homes, shops and farms damaged by crude rocket attacks.

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#4 Lazarus Long

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 11:04 PM

The problem is not that Israel has the right of self defense, of course it does. The issue is the disproportionate response that is tantamount to collective punishment and illegal under the international rules of war.

BTW the Israeli soldiers have largely been killed by friendly fire. But the vast number of deaths have been mostly civilian Palestinians and this is the problem. The precision targeting of the Israelis is looking mythical at the moment, not to mention they are using illegal weapons too. The White Phosphorus bombs used on the UN facilities are also illegal.

It was a combination of Fatah corruption and Israeli contempt that got Hamas elected to begin with and this approach is not helping. It is only reinforcing the legitimacy of Hamas in the Palestinian people's eyes. Hizbollah has already recovered most of its losses since the Lebanon invasion and has also been made even more powerful politically inside Lebanon.

It appears to me that the approach that has been taken by all sides is not working and the ones this benefits most are those that seek teh destabilization of the region, Islamic Terrorists.

It is past time the leaders realized that if a tactic is not working they need to adopt a new one, along with a new strategy.

#5 Mariusz

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 11:07 PM

Being raised Orthodox Jewish with an incredibly one-sided view of this matter, I find it somewhat difficult to assess this situation objectively.


"Holly Land" is a birth place of three worst religions in history of humanity.
I think we should let Middle Easterns kill each other, then level Holly Land with nukes and declare it "off limit" for the next millenium.

Mariusz

#6 StrangeAeons

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 11:59 PM

Being raised Orthodox Jewish with an incredibly one-sided view of this matter, I find it somewhat difficult to assess this situation objectively.


"Holly Land" is a birth place of three worst religions in history of humanity.
I think we should let Middle Easterns kill each other, then level Holly Land with nukes and declare it "off limit" for the next millenium.

Mariusz


Clearly the ethically superior decision.

LazarusLong makes a good point, and I think this is what comes to the foreground for me:
Violence begets violence, and in the end only those that want violence win. Israel is obviously responding disproportionately and brutally; the people's reaction has become emotional. People entrenched in these conflicts become morally polar, and think in terms of "us/them" instead of more civilized and nuanced modalities. The Palestinian people, being far more oppressed, have become so subdued by this type of thinking that they readily elected Hamas (Hebrew for chaos). I think we need to find a definitive way to kill the meme of Radical Islam, not the people who believe in it. It's almost as if they were standing in front of Israel speaking like Obi-Wan Kenobi, "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can imagine".

#7 Mariusz

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 12:21 AM

Clearly the ethically superior decision.


In this conflict neither side is behaving ethically, so why should the rest of the world be hold hostage by both sides?

Mariusz

#8 Mind

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 12:45 AM

The problem is not that Israel has the right of self defense, of course it does. The issue is the disproportionate response that is tantamount to collective punishment and illegal under the international rules of war.


When an armed robber or violent rapist breaks into your house and you call the police to save you, do you hope they just send one policeman (maybe armed/maybe not) because "that would be proportional". Of course not, you hope they send enough force to get it over quickly and preserve your life. Anything else would be ridiculous, as is the case for proportionality in this war. In WWII did the Allies employ just enough force to fight to a draw? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. The idea was to destroy the enemy and win.

Violence begets violence, of course, but that is not the root of this conflict. Perhaps the ultimate root is hundreds-of-centuries old religions claiming one spot in the world, but the primary present root is that one side wants to commit genocide on the other. Complete destruction of the state of Israel is in the Hamas charter - its founding document. It is in their literature. It is preached. Genocide is even in some children's programming. There is no negotiating with genocidal maniacs. They don't respond to reason. Many Palestinian people are innocent in this, but to some extent they get what they voted for. They voted for genocidal maniacs and you typically end up in a war after that kind-of vote. Even before Israel invaded the Gaza strip, it was wracked with fighting between Hamas and Fatah. Why is there such pressure to have Israel conform to international rules of war when Hamas obviously doesn't?

No matter how much land Israel is willing to give up or occupations they end, all they get in the end is more suicide bombs and rockets. Pretty soon they will face nukes or biowarfare because there is no stopping Hamas and their plans for genocide.

The solution in my view is education, especially education for Palestinian women. Put the women in charge and get the homicidal, genocidal, religious-fanatic men off the streets.

#9 StrangeAeons

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 01:20 AM

Hamas is a radical ideology; that is why I believe the meme should die. I know that they are a horrendous set of beliefs, a horrendous doctrine; but the assymetry on the one side in terms of radical ideology is counterbalanced by the assymetry on the other in terms of its superior wealth and force. Yes, Hamas believes in genocide; but they don't have the ability to enact it; the only way they could ever achieve the type of power it takes to obliterate an entire people is by having a serious government, a functional infrastructure, and an orderly society-- which they never will. They are a terrorist organization, not a government; for them to cross the threshold where they became a functional government, they would have to channel their energies more thoughtfully. At that point I imagine the genocidal thing would start losing steam; this is not the same mentality that fueled Turks to slay Armenians or Germans to gas Jews.
It is because the Israelis are stronger and richer that they are in a position to think more rationally; it is because they can think more rationally that they have a more moderate stance; and so they should be held accountable to a greater extent, even when their doctrine is more realistic. Radical Islam breeds and festers in regions of desperation and persecution. Of course the people should be educated; but who will educate them, and how will they come to accept it? After this conflict so many will have dead relatives, so many will be sick and injured, and the area will be choked even tighter for vital supplies; and to those who were there and saw it happen, it will only reinforce their vilification of the Israelis, it will only make them more susceptible to the meme. Trying to reinstate Fatah over the Palestinians after this conflict, even if they crush the Hamas government, will only create more malcontent and civil unrest. There doesn't appear to be a true endgame in sight.

#10 Prometheus

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 09:45 AM

This is not a battle that can, or ever will be, won with military might.


Israel has to recognize that is must make a financial investment in Palestine to improve the quality of life of Palestinian citizens and instill Free Market ideology and aspirations to drown out the fanatics. The current approach is only going to strengthen and prolong the resolve of the extremists and breed monsters.

#11 drmz

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 10:14 AM

Being raised Orthodox Jewish with an incredibly one-sided view of this matter, I find it somewhat difficult to assess this situation objectively. I see the situation is morally complex. I have a solution, though it's a tad insane. Feed the Palestinians. Lace their food with mood stabilizers. It's harder to be mad when you're not starving. It's also harder to be mad when you have lithium flowing through your blood. Hopefully once they calm down Israel will have to cave to international pressure. I'm more serious about this idea than I would like to be, because the situation is such a colossal cyclical cluster%*$#. Ultimately I believe in a single state, with the abolition of a "Jewish" state, and instead the institution of a secular progressive democratic government (which Israel already is for the most part anyways.)
Seriously, though, I would like to know what people here think. I would also like to know what they think the U.S. should do to intervene, and what measures they anticipate Obama will take.


The situation isn't that complex.Israel is an occupier and the Palestinians have the full right to defend themselve and to not accept the current situation.It's alot harder not to be mad if there was no oppression, no wall build around you, if there were no settlers (which is forbidden according to the geneva conventions), if Sabra and Shatila did not happen i can go on an on ...State terror just looks a lot cleaner on TV then Arabic people shouting Takbirrr and the Israelis have a better PR machine going....I can image why there is no press allowed in Palestinia at the moment.

People are not born with hate, people don;t want to blow themselves up because their terror gene got activated by Arabic coffee. Israele violence and oppression, killing and murdering their families brought them to this.(look back in history)

Michael Rosen wrote a poem for a demonstration (In norway i believe )

In Gaza, children,
you learn that the sky kills
and that houses hurt.
You learn that your blanket is smoke
and breakfast is dirt.

You learn that cars do somersaults
clothes turn red,
friends become statues,
bakers don’t sell bread.

You learn that the night is a gun,
that toys burn
breath can stop,
it could be your turn.

You learn:
if they send you fire
they couldn’t guess:
not just the soldier dies -
it’s you and the rest.

Nowhere to run,
nowhere to go,
nowhere to hide
in the home you know.

You learn
that death isn’t life,
that air isn’t bread,
the land is for all.
You have the right to be
Not Dead.
You have the right to be
Not Dead.
You have the right to be
Not Dead.


There were more then 10.000 protesters in Amsterdam two weeks ago (more then 100.000 in London and France) and i hope there are alot more today in Amsterdam.


Lace there food with mood stabilizers....you must have had a very single sided childhood to say something like that. Looks like you want back to 40-45 ?

Edited by drmz, 17 January 2009 - 10:18 AM.


#12 Forever21

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 11:16 AM

I would also like to know what they think the U.S. should do to intervene,


Well, we do know what that is but its REALLY expensive.

#13 Lotus

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 12:32 PM

PeteKiaRose, I couldn't agree with you more. I think you've described the problems and possible solutions very well. I also think that the only way out of this mess is if Israel starts to try to somehow win the hearts of the civilian palestinians, something they should have done long time ago. Build them houses, infrastructure, schools, hospitals. Let's remember how Hamas won them over, did they not build them schools and hospitals? People all over the world are the same in that they need safety, food, shelter, education in short a decent life. To even begin having a chance for a functioning peace in the area, the people's needs has to be met.

What the palestinians need to be made to understand is, that even if Hamas were right, even if the creation of the state of Israel in itself was a big injustice to the palestinian people, even if that was the case (and I'm not saying it was), it cannot be undone by eradicating the Israel state. It cannot ever be undone or even completely be made up for. Somehow dissolving the Israeli state would only create another injustice, this time to all the israelis people and children who would be displaced. Children born there, who are just as innocent as the palestinian ones. People can argue about the technicalities of how Israel was created forever but it makes no difference.

However, they will not be able to understand and move on as long as they're starving and desperate.

#14 StrangeAeons

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 03:00 PM

PeteKiaRose, I couldn't agree with you more. I think you've described the problems and possible solutions very well. I also think that the only way out of this mess is if Israel starts to try to somehow win the hearts of the civilian palestinians, something they should have done long time ago. Build them houses, infrastructure, schools, hospitals. Let's remember how Hamas won them over, did they not build them schools and hospitals? People all over the world are the same in that they need safety, food, shelter, education in short a decent life. To even begin having a chance for a functioning peace in the area, the people's needs has to be met.

What the palestinians need to be made to understand is, that even if Hamas were right, even if the creation of the state of Israel in itself was a big injustice to the palestinian people, even if that was the case (and I'm not saying it was), it cannot be undone by eradicating the Israel state. It cannot ever be undone or even completely be made up for. Somehow dissolving the Israeli state would only create another injustice, this time to all the israelis people and children who would be displaced. Children born there, who are just as innocent as the palestinian ones. People can argue about the technicalities of how Israel was created forever but it makes no difference.

However, they will not be able to understand and move on as long as they're starving and desperate.


Mind: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not hundreds of years old, the true origin of the situation really only stretches just past 60 years now; unfortunately even that is ancient history relative to the current progression of the conflict.

drmz: I said that I was only somewhat joking about that; and if you've been reading the rest of my posts, firstly I acknowledge right off the bat having a one-sided childhood. Secondly, I'm trying to understand this situation in a balanced, intelligent manner instead of being sensationalist in either direction. I'm not denying the Palestinians' suffering, but that doesn't justify their doctrine. Hamas are not noble guerilla freedom-fighters; they are single-minded terrorists hellbent on destroying Israel, and this has made diplomacy rather difficult.

What I'm a little concerned about is that the Palestinian people have become too incensed to accept Israeli aid. I think after everything they've seen (think of the amount of upheaval a 15 year old Palestinian has seen in their lifetime) there's some psychological point that has been crossed where even if the "enemy" were to come to you with arms outstretched and laden with aide, you would not be able to overcome your programming. The "mood stabilizer" thing was sort of hinting that in a way you would almost expect a "paranoid" Palestinian response to the Israelis being friendly. I am glad, though, that regardless of people's leanings, a majority of you believe that the type of violence going on is senseless and counterproductive; unlike my uncle in late December upon hearing the initial airstrike, who cried, "200! They should be killing 200 an hour!"

#15 inawe

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 07:20 PM

In Darfur the Sudanese Arabs are massacring the Sudanese Blacks. There were some demonstrations but not anymore. No "10.000 protesters in
Amsterdam (more then 100.000 in London and France)" demonstrating against the Sudanese Arabs.

Right now in Sri Lanka, the Sinhalese are happily killing Tamils because the Tigers are terrorists (not like the nice Hamas guys).
Again, no "10.000 protesters in Amsterdam (more then 100.000 in London and France)" demonstrating against the Sinhalese.
Why this difference in attitude of the protesters, including drmz? Why don't we see a poem like the one above about the Sudanese Blacks or
the Tamils, or many others in similar situations?

There is a state that could have been Palestine. Except that the British imported Hashemite sheiks to rule it and is now called Jordan. Since most of the people in
Jordan are Palestinians, in the late 1960s there was an upsurge in the activity and numbers of Arab Palestinian paramilitary elements
(fedayeen) within the state of Jordan. These distinct, armed militias were becoming a "state within a state", threatening Jordan's rule of
law. King Hussein's armed forces targeted the fedayeen, and open fighting erupted in June 1970. The battle in which Palestinian
fighters from various Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) groups were expelled from Jordan is commonly known as Black September. So
lots of Palestinians were killed by the army of king Hussein. However, people like drmz never mention Black September (ignorance?), instead
they keep harping on "Sabra and Shatila" which they blame on Israelis. They conveniently ignore that in Sabra and Shatila Christian Lebanese
killed Muslim Lebanese (no killing by Israelis). Why this selective ignorance?

By the way, the area of Israel is 8,500 sq mi compared to 45,500 sq mi for Jordan.

On November 29, 1947, the newly created United Nations approved the UN Partition Plan (United Nations General
Assembly Resolution 181), dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish. Arab countries attacked the Jews with the intent
to expel or kill them. The Jews prevailed and part of the Arab population fled. The number of Arabs that left the area was about the
same as the number of Jews that had to flee for their lives from the Arab countries and went to the future state of Israel. One hears now from Arabs whose
ancestors had properties they lost in Haifa but nobody commiserates for the Jews who lost their properties in Damascus. Why?

As somebody said in a previous post, lack of education is a big problem. Or worse.

#16 senseix

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 12:21 AM

Great points there, i would have to agree with just about every word you said.

The problem is not that Israel has the right of self defense, of course it does. The issue is the disproportionate response that is tantamount to collective punishment and illegal under the international rules of war.


When an armed robber or violent rapist breaks into your house and you call the police to save you, do you hope they just send one policeman (maybe armed/maybe not) because "that would be proportional". Of course not, you hope they send enough force to get it over quickly and preserve your life. Anything else would be ridiculous, as is the case for proportionality in this war. In WWII did the Allies employ just enough force to fight to a draw? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. The idea was to destroy the enemy and win.

Violence begets violence, of course, but that is not the root of this conflict. Perhaps the ultimate root is hundreds-of-centuries old religions claiming one spot in the world, but the primary present root is that one side wants to commit genocide on the other. Complete destruction of the state of Israel is in the Hamas charter - its founding document. It is in their literature. It is preached. Genocide is even in some children's programming. There is no negotiating with genocidal maniacs. They don't respond to reason. Many Palestinian people are innocent in this, but to some extent they get what they voted for. They voted for genocidal maniacs and you typically end up in a war after that kind-of vote. Even before Israel invaded the Gaza strip, it was wracked with fighting between Hamas and Fatah. Why is there such pressure to have Israel conform to international rules of war when Hamas obviously doesn't?

No matter how much land Israel is willing to give up or occupations they end, all they get in the end is more suicide bombs and rockets. Pretty soon they will face nukes or biowarfare because there is no stopping Hamas and their plans for genocide.

The solution in my view is education, especially education for Palestinian women. Put the women in charge and get the homicidal, genocidal, religious-fanatic men off the streets.



#17 Prometheus

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 01:31 AM

The problem with Mind's metaphor is that it's not accurate. This is more in alignment with what is happening over there:

The police catch up with the armed robber/rapist when he has gone back to his home, where also his parents and brothers and sisters and their children also live, and rather than the police showing up its a tactical paramilitary unit who through grenades in first and ask questions later..

#18 Ben

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 05:56 AM

In Darfur the Sudanese Arabs are massacring the Sudanese Blacks. There were some demonstrations but not anymore. No "10.000 protesters in
Amsterdam (more then 100.000 in London and France)" demonstrating against the Sudanese Arabs.

Right now in Sri Lanka, the Sinhalese are happily killing Tamils because the Tigers are terrorists (not like the nice Hamas guys).
Again, no "10.000 protesters in Amsterdam (more then 100.000 in London and France)" demonstrating against the Sinhalese.
Why this difference in attitude of the protesters, including drmz? Why don't we see a poem like the one above about the Sudanese Blacks or
the Tamils, or many others in similar situations?

There is a state that could have been Palestine. Except that the British imported Hashemite sheiks to rule it and is now called Jordan. Since most of the people in
Jordan are Palestinians, in the late 1960s there was an upsurge in the activity and numbers of Arab Palestinian paramilitary elements
(fedayeen) within the state of Jordan. These distinct, armed militias were becoming a "state within a state", threatening Jordan's rule of
law. King Hussein's armed forces targeted the fedayeen, and open fighting erupted in June 1970. The battle in which Palestinian
fighters from various Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) groups were expelled from Jordan is commonly known as Black September. So
lots of Palestinians were killed by the army of king Hussein. However, people like drmz never mention Black September (ignorance?), instead
they keep harping on "Sabra and Shatila" which they blame on Israelis. They conveniently ignore that in Sabra and Shatila Christian Lebanese
killed Muslim Lebanese (no killing by Israelis). Why this selective ignorance?

By the way, the area of Israel is 8,500 sq mi compared to 45,500 sq mi for Jordan.

On November 29, 1947, the newly created United Nations approved the UN Partition Plan (United Nations General
Assembly Resolution 181), dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish. Arab countries attacked the Jews with the intent
to expel or kill them. The Jews prevailed and part of the Arab population fled. The number of Arabs that left the area was about the
same as the number of Jews that had to flee for their lives from the Arab countries and went to the future state of Israel. One hears now from Arabs whose
ancestors had properties they lost in Haifa but nobody commiserates for the Jews who lost their properties in Damascus. Why?

As somebody said in a previous post, lack of education is a big problem. Or worse.



Somebody said it! Thank you!

Millions die in Africa and you hear an outcry that is relatively silent to the uproar that has been heard recently.

Why is this? Is black suffering any different or more unjust than white suffering? The people who are the most vehemently apposed to Israel's actions in Gaza always fall back on the statistics of the dead for each side. If this is just a number game of who's killed the most people (a simplification that kind of sounds as if these people view the situation as some kind of video game) then surely Africa has the numbers. I'm left extremely confused as to why they pick this particular conflict over one that to me seems to be more unjust and a higher priority in terms of outrage and protest.

So I'm following how this situation is panning out in Britain closely. Every BBC news article I seem to read convinces me more and more of the suspicion that is in the back of my mind, that perhaps the reason why there has been such an outcry this time in Western countries is that perhaps people are seeking to find a common enemy with people they are afraid of. If there is any truth to that then I can assure you, recent terrorism has been extremely successfully in controlling the way people think.

#19 Forever21

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 06:57 AM

The problem with Mind's metaphor


It is Tzipi Livni's. I heard Bloomberg use it too on CNN.

Edited by Forever21, 18 January 2009 - 07:06 AM.


#20 Prometheus

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 08:42 AM

The problem with Mind's metaphor


It is Tzipi Livni's. I heard Bloomberg use it too on CNN.


Then it is Tzipi's metaphor that is misaligned.

#21 drmz

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 08:52 AM

In Darfur the Sudanese Arabs are massacring the Sudanese Blacks. There were some demonstrations but not anymore. No "10.000 protesters in
Amsterdam (more then 100.000 in London and France)" demonstrating against the Sudanese Arabs.

Right now in Sri Lanka, the Sinhalese are happily killing Tamils because the Tigers are terrorists (not like the nice Hamas guys).
Again, no "10.000 protesters in Amsterdam (more then 100.000 in London and France)" demonstrating against the Sinhalese.
Why this difference in attitude of the protesters, including drmz? Why don't we see a poem like the one above about the Sudanese Blacks or
the Tamils, or many others in similar situations?

There is a state that could have been Palestine. Except that the British imported Hashemite sheiks to rule it and is now called Jordan. Since most of the people in
Jordan are Palestinians, in the late 1960s there was an upsurge in the activity and numbers of Arab Palestinian paramilitary elements
(fedayeen) within the state of Jordan. These distinct, armed militias were becoming a "state within a state", threatening Jordan's rule of
law. King Hussein's armed forces targeted the fedayeen, and open fighting erupted in June 1970. The battle in which Palestinian
fighters from various Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) groups were expelled from Jordan is commonly known as Black September. So
lots of Palestinians were killed by the army of king Hussein. However, people like drmz never mention Black September (ignorance?), instead
they keep harping on "Sabra and Shatila" which they blame on Israelis. They conveniently ignore that in Sabra and Shatila Christian Lebanese
killed Muslim Lebanese (no killing by Israelis). Why this selective ignorance?

By the way, the area of Israel is 8,500 sq mi compared to 45,500 sq mi for Jordan.

On November 29, 1947, the newly created United Nations approved the UN Partition Plan (United Nations General
Assembly Resolution 181), dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish. Arab countries attacked the Jews with the intent
to expel or kill them. The Jews prevailed and part of the Arab population fled. The number of Arabs that left the area was about the
same as the number of Jews that had to flee for their lives from the Arab countries and went to the future state of Israel. One hears now from Arabs whose
ancestors had properties they lost in Haifa but nobody commiserates for the Jews who lost their properties in Damascus. Why?

As somebody said in a previous post, lack of education is a big problem. Or worse.


@PetaKiarose, sorry for my emotional reaction in the last sentence, i probably read that part of your post too seriously.


Probably there is no protest with 100.000 people because there is almost 0 media attention. With some exception of a 10 second shot an the tv news once every year. It all depends on where the global attention lies. I think if you search for a poem you'll find it.\
For a correct perspective on the Isreal part in Sabra and Shatila download : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1185616/ ( from an israeli viewpoint)

For the rest, read a brief history over here if you want to take it back a long time ago : http://www.mideastwe...riefhistory.htm

For people interested, Noam Chomsky on Gaza (13-01-09) http://web.mit.edu/cis/starr.html , slow video though, didn't watched it yet.

Edited by drmz, 18 January 2009 - 09:14 AM.


#22 Lazarus Long

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 12:03 PM

When an armed robber or violent rapist breaks into your house and you call the police to save you, do you hope they just send one policeman (maybe armed/maybe not) because "that would be proportional". Of course not, you hope they send enough force to get it over quickly and preserve your life. Anything else would be ridiculous, as is the case for proportionality in this war. In WWII did the Allies employ just enough force to fight to a draw? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. The idea was to destroy the enemy and win.


Yes "destroy the enemy and win", just like the Germans believed about the Warsaw Ghetto, no different really. I would think the Israeli's would know better.

The metaphor being supplied here is absurd, not just inappropriate because it begs the question of when is a violent response too much but because the implied answer is; whatever amount of violence it takes is alright, so long as mission accomplished. Well we will return to the *mission* being accomplished in a moment but first back the myth of the metaphor.

Oh and before even that response a note: The issue of Darfur, the Sudan, Sri Lanka, and please don't stop there lest we forget, Zimbabwe, the Congolese Republic, the Niger Delta and Somali Pirates. Oh and perhaps deserving dishonorable mention are the MILF and Communist rebel movements in the Philippines, Indonesian rebels in the breakaway region of Aceh, Maoists in Nepal, and ethnic Uighurs in China, or democracy advocates in Myanmar, and numerous other ethnic, regional, and political conflicts extent around the world.

Heh why stop there lest we forget the rising tide of violence causing pandemonium right over the border in Mexico by our very own privately fostered and publicly funded drug war. Now there is a free market funded form of terrorism for you. You can't even blame the Muslims or religious fanatics for that issue.

The point is that all of these deserve their own discussions but it hasn't happened for two primary reasons; religion combined with oil.

The (UN)Holy Land has no oil but its fate is tied inextricably to the flow of oil to the whole world. First we have three dogs fighting over one bone and then we have their owners vying for power while sports betting their pets.

Yes, religion gives meaning and oil gives motive to the attention the conflict in Gaza and Israel gets. If there was no oil involved religion might make many still pay per view but I bet major governments wouldn't be selling weapons to all sides. I bet the proxy war there would be a lot lower key and media attention more distant, perhaps more like watching Hindus and Muslims kill each other in Kashmir, India and Pakistan.

But there is no oil in Gaza, or in Israel so why should oil be a central motive to the involvement of the rest of the world?

Because the Palestinian struggle gives legitimacy to the Islamic fundamentalists and makes their cause a generational conflict that will be inherited for a century to come if the present players do not change their strategy. Islamic fundamentalism is not just a threat to us in the west but to the stability of the propped up monarchies that control the flow to a major amount of the global source of oil. It is a threat to the stability in Pakistan, hell even in parts of China, not to mention the former Soviet states and oil producing states in Africa.

You want to be a world power?

Then you had better do better than play Risk and learn much more about the central aspects of the conflicts. These are not solved by ignoring them or by treating them with just a heavy hand. Yes it is long past time to stop playing like children with a post colonial game of Risk and start getting real about a global society. If you want to trade together then you are just going to have to learn to play nice together children of earth.

Otherwise get ready for a dark age again because as usual you are your own worst enemy.

Now to the myth of the metaphor, the issue of the measured response rather than just overkill is that you are dead wrong about the response. What a panicked victim *hopes for* is not the issue, it is what gets the job done without getting everyone killed, including the perp but most importantly the hostage. How often do hostage victims get killed by the tactics you suggest?

Usually.

Getting it done right invariably involves negotiation. Please stop with the Hollywood tactics and realize there is a reason professional police use hostage NEGOTIATORS. It is because it works and we save many more lives that way than the Dirty Harry way. It probably sells less papers and movies though because it is about the application of calm reason not sensational emotion. Passion sells and promotes political efforts but it takes reason to end conflicts and learn there are larger reasons than the motives of biblical vengeance.

The cultures of the Mideast are too attached to the "eye for an eye" tactic. They have blinded themselves to reason but what is our excuse as on-lookers and promoters of the violence?

What is our vested interest?

Is it profit, the passion of religion, or the prurient excitement of betting on blood sport?

How about seeing the larger picture.

Let's respond to the violent robbery and rape by blowing up the neighborhood the gang comes from. Yes, let's kill every member of the gang and their wives, husbands, parents, cousins, and innocent children. Yes, INNOCENT children. Let's level their houses and destroy even their chance to continue as a people or rebuilding from the rubble.

Oh wait we can't do that because it has another name, genocide.

All of this sounds absurd, a gross exaggeration right?

Well it is not and the Israeli's should know better and some of them do. Ultimately the overkill response will lead to playing out Masada once again and responding to being surrounded by an overwhelming force with the option of surrender or *noble* suicide.

Did you ever wonder folks why Josephus changed sides?

#23 inawe

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 03:36 PM

Yes "destroy the enemy and win", just like the Germans believed about the Warsaw Ghetto, no different really. I would think the Israeli's would know better.

This is a despicable statement.
Hold on the accusation of my being guilty of an ad hominem attack. I just had to show my outrage at the
statement. I wont lower myself any further by commenting on the author.

Besides many others there is, of course, a religious component behind that conflict
All religions are bullshit. But there is a difference. Judaism was designed as a religion for the Jews, never intended to be proselytized
to others. On the other hand, many Christians and Muslims are set on converting the whole world to their faith. So Christianity and Islam are like 2
tectonic plates, each trying to cover the world. Of course there is going to be clashes between these 2. Unfortunately for Israel it got
caught in the middle.

Islam is the more aggressive of the 2 and tries to first reclaim areas that used to be Muslim, like Israel/Palestine. Then Andalucia, then ...
Many ignorant idiots believe that if Israel were not there Islam would be placated. Are they aware of what's going on in the World?

Now, Judaism being just for the Jews, as a community they try to help Jews in distress. A good example is the airlift of the Ethiopian Black Jews.
Islam sees the Palestinians in a completely different light. They are just a means in the quest for expanding Islam. They are kept in
refuge-camps, ideal for producing terrorists and suicide bombers. Also to attract the sympathy of the retardeds of this world.

As for the 2 state solution. The Palestinian state is supposed to consist of the West bank and Gaza separated by Israel. The only way
something like that can work is if there are very good, friendly relations between the 2 people. Good luck.

#24 drmz

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 04:20 PM

Yes "destroy the enemy and win", just like the Germans believed about the Warsaw Ghetto, no different really. I would think the Israeli's would know better.

This is a despicable statement.
Hold on the accusation of my being guilty of an ad hominem attack. I just had to show my outrage at the
statement. I wont lower myself any further by commenting on the author.

Besides many others there is, of course, a religious component behind that conflict
All religions are bullshit. But there is a difference. Judaism was designed as a religion for the Jews, never intended to be proselytized
to others. On the other hand, many Christians and Muslims are set on converting the whole world to their faith. So Christianity and Islam are like 2
tectonic plates, each trying to cover the world. Of course there is going to be clashes between these 2. Unfortunately for Israel it got
caught in the middle.

Islam is the more aggressive of the 2 and tries to first reclaim areas that used to be Muslim, like Israel/Palestine. Then Andalucia, then ...
Many ignorant idiots believe that if Israel were not there Islam would be placated. Are they aware of what's going on in the World?

Now, Judaism being just for the Jews, as a community they try to help Jews in distress. A good example is the airlift of the Ethiopian Black Jews.
Islam sees the Palestinians in a completely different light. They are just a means in the quest for expanding Islam. They are kept in
refuge-camps, ideal for producing terrorists and suicide bombers. Also to attract the sympathy of the retardeds of this world.

As for the 2 state solution. The Palestinian state is supposed to consist of the West bank and Gaza separated by Israel. The only way
something like that can work is if there are very good, friendly relations between the 2 people. Good luck.


And i won't lower myself to say anything about the above. Alot of bold statements in one post, but none of them gives me the impression that you really thought about what you write.
Anyways, discussions like this end up in crepulance-like topics so i'm out

Edited by drmz, 18 January 2009 - 04:22 PM.


#25 Lazarus Long

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 04:34 PM

This is a despicable statement.
Hold on the accusation of my being guilty of an ad hominem attack. I just had to show my outrage at the
statement. I wont lower myself any further by commenting on the author.


Good because the issue isn't about me and you need to read carefully. For the record I am also of Jewish descent and half my family are either Jewish and/or Israeli.

I intentionally made the comment about the Polish Warsaw Ghetto not about the Jews, of course the Jews were there but they were Poles not just Jews and they were fighting to free themselves but not all the residents of that community were fighting at all, in fact most weren't. When the Germans destroyed the Warsaw Ghetto the goal was to end the insurrection and the Allies certainly could have done something about it at the time, like help them with food and material drops but of course they didn't either. Another example from history of exactly the courageous behavior we see today in a variety of places around the world.

The fact that the Germans didn't care about the innocent members of the community who simply got in the way is exactly like the fact that the Israeli's don't give a damn about the innocent members of the community that get in the way of killing Hamas and if you don't like the comparison then help stop the current events from so closely paralleling them.

The Germans didn't like the fact that rebels involved in continuous sabotage of the German advance and occupation of Poland just happened to be operating out of the Warsaw Ghetto. For the record most but not all those guerrilla fighters were Jewish but what made them a target is that they were fighters and good ones by the way. The point about history being unforgiving is that the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto was all about the use of intentional overkill and collective punishment. The Germans didn't need to level the Warsaw Ghetto but they were not going to go house to house and fight if they didn't have to and they obviously had nothing but contempt for the innocent Jews so they just treated them as *collateral damage* conveniently.

You don't like the image I presented Inawe?

I can understand that but get used to it because more and more that is how the actions of Israel are beginning to appear to the rest of the world. Having been a supporter of Israel practically all my life I am not happy about it either so I guess it is better you hear it from me than just your enemies.

First you surround the Palestinians and force them into what amounts to Bantustans, then build walls to prevent them from operating as a meaningful people, control their supply of all goods while claiming no responsibility for the shortage of food and medical supplies in the Palestinian enclaves, and then bomb the crap out of the civilian sectors like shooting fish in a barrel and claim that these are just Palestinian terrorists so why should anyone care?

Well most of the dead are just human beings and civilians not combatants and more over like I said before if anyone should know better the Israeli's should.

And i won't lower myself to say anything about the above. Alot of bold statements in one post, but none of them gives me the impression that you really thought about what you write.
Anyways, discussions like this end up in crepulance-like topics so i'm out


You don't like what I am saying then address the points not me. I am not taking a side against Israel here I am just telling it like I see it.

Upon reflection I think you are directing the comment at Inawe not me drmz but some of what Inawe is describing is his core belief of why the actions are justified and an explanation of why religions that proselytize are to blame not Judaism but I do not really think this is about Judaism. I think it is about politics and he has a point about the politics of proselytization but it is not enough of a point to justify the current course of action the Israeli's have chosen.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 18 January 2009 - 04:52 PM.
Clarification


#26 Lazarus Long

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 04:40 PM

Also my central point is that it is past time for better tactics and a more coherent long term strategy because obviously what is being done is not working.

If you don't like the look in the mirror then don't smash the mirror to try and deny the reflection.

#27 Lazarus Long

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 05:00 PM

I should add that so far people on this thread have behaved well and that in itself is rare for this topic. Rather than make it personal and attack one another let's take this opportunity to actually address the core issues and more importantly seek rational remedies. There are contributors to this thread that strongly disagree but they could work together to find a common ground and perhaps contribute ideas (memes) that spread far beyond this single discussion.

One never knows when such ideas emerge from the muck of madness most such discussions decay into. So far I find it hopeful that this one hasn't so deteriorated.

#28 StrangeAeons

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 06:32 PM

Thanks to inawe and LazarusLong. It is important we maintain perspective, and it is obviously appalling that there are a great deal of atrocities going on all over the world. Notably, aside from the religious aspect, I don't think that most of these situations are as complex as this conflict. Generally it's a one-sided issue, and here there is some degree of ambiguity. Obviously people like me and LL have certain vested interest due to our background and having Israeli relatives; in my case I have a cousin who's in active combat duty in the IDF right now. I'm glad we can attempt to look at the issue without bias.

Update on the Gaza situation:
Well, this may not be ideal, but it is a step forward; unfortunately it may be the kind of step taken forward after two steps taken back. It's good to see that the majority of the Palestinians are acknowledging the cease-fire instead of being vindictive; unfortunately this is probably due to the immense toll on lives and resources. What seems most likely next is that they regroup and breach the cease-fire again when they have gathered themselves; and I imagine that it is the Israeli soldiers remaining in Gaza who will be victims of the next attacks.
Of course, stationing the soldiers in Gaza to ask "whether or not the cease-fire will take" makes it seem like the Israelis are goading them on, with their fingers crossed behind their backs hoping they can justify another invasion.

#29 Ben

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 05:12 AM

Update: Israel calls ceasefire; Hamas fires 20 rockets into Israel soon after.

And that's what Israel is dealing with. An irrational enemy that hides in civilian centers and refuses to engage with Israel directly. Instead of blaming Israel for defending itself, why are we not critising the cowardliness and the disregard for innocent life Hamas, through its actions, seems to believe acceptable in furthering their illogical and ideologically fanatical schemes.

#30 shifter

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 07:47 AM

Frankly I'm sick of the Palestinians cries and outrage over the deaths of 'women and children'. It’s tragic and I hate it as much as anyone but the Palestinians are the last people who should cry foul. They don’t mind cheering for joy and praising their 'martyrs' for blowing themselves up on a bus full of children. They also don’t mind having their own children put in the front lines just so they can be killed to make Israel look bad. These children aren't being killed so much because of Israel; they are being killed for Hamas's political point scoring. And this war is not new. Israel has lost many more lives than the handful over the past few weeks. Imagine if your country had to put up with frequent suicide bombers and threats like 'your country should not exist'. What would you want your government to do about it?

I don’t quite get the disproportionate response issue. The fact is, compared to the weapons Israel has at its disposal, their response is quite tame and at least their objective isn't the obliteration of all of Palestine! Now do you think if Hamas had the capability of weapons of mass destruction like atom bombs or 'dirty' bombs that they wouldn't use it? Hamas throws everything they have indiscriminately at Israel. They don’t play fair. They are the biggest hypocrites and BS artists this world has seen. What is their ultimate objective you have to ask and then think about what side of morality you would rather stand on.




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