335 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

Okay, I want to know why some proponents of the Paleo diet will not admit to a distinction between quality carbs and crap carbs. You truly cannot associate the carb content in something like lentils to the carb content of white wonder bread. Completely different relative effect on insulin levels. Not to mention the isoflavones in higher fiber natural foods tend to offset the effects of glycation in the blood stream. Where is the indisputable scientific evidence that there is no difference in carb content of the forementioned foods with regard to insulin levels? Show me double blind studies. Otherwise you are just going on the word of Larry Taubes and his diet book, which is one of several dozen proclaiming to be the sole truth bearer.

Edited by TheFountain, 29 January 2009 - 03:03 PM.

[JLL]

I came across this, which I had read before but realized it may be pertinent here?


Cheese and beef elevate insulin levels more then high carb foods such as pasta. (American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 50 (1997):1264)

A quarter pound of beef raises insulin levels in diabetics as much as a quarter pound of straight sugar. (Diabetes Care 7 (1984):465)

A single burgers worth of beef, or three slices of cheddar, boost insulin levels more than almost 2 cups of cooked pasta (American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 50 (1997):1264)

The Journal concluded that meat, compared to the amount of blood sugar it releases, seems to cause the most insulin secretion of any food tested.

Huh.. I don't get this. How is this possible?

[DukeNukem]

How do we respond to the Josh Mitteldorf argument quoted above in this thread?

"Many people try to live healthy lives by avoiding man-made products and chemicals. Organic foods are a favorite, and the "paleo diet" (raw fruits, nuts and meats) represents this philosophy carried to its logical conclusion. The thinking is that humans evolved in a certain environment, and we are optimized by natural selection for the life style and the foods that were common in our evolutionary history. The flaw in this argument is that aging is not a failure of the body's protective systems, but a form of programmed self-destruction. So if we tune the body to function "optimally", it will also destroy itself right on cue, like a well-oiled machine."

Maybe, like Mitteldorf writes, we're like salmon, and feeding ourselves the perfect diet only leads to perfect death. Maybe healthy diets only eliminate the diseases of modern culture, but do nothing to help slow the natural progression that leads to death.

The issue here is that we--people trying to live as long as possible--can only work with the best possible current evidence. The evidence of people on a paleo diet shows that it reduces inflammation, optimizes lipid levels, especially by reducing triglycerides, greatly reducing LP(a), and elevating HDL. Note that LDL and total cholesterol, as standalone values, are of practically no value. Don't tell me that a raw diet or a vegetarian diet leads to low cholesterol--doesn't mean jack shit. The values that matters are the three that the paleo diet perfectly optimizes. Maybe a raw diet does this, too. Would love to see some actual lipid figures of those on such a diet.

[DukeNukem]

Okay, I want to know why some proponents of the Paleo diet will not admit to a distinction between quality carbs and crap carbs. You truly cannot associate the carb content in something like lentils to the carb content of white wonder bread. Completely different relative effect on insulin levels. Not to mention the isoflavones in higher fiber natural foods tend to offset the effects of glycation in the blood stream. Where is the indisputable scientific evidence that there is no difference in carb content of the forementioned foods with regard to insulin levels? Show me double blind studies. Otherwise you are just going on the word of Larry Taubes and his diet book, which is one of several dozen proclaiming to be the sole truth bearer.

I've not seen anyone diss quality carbs. I've gone out of my way to make clear that practically all vegetables and berries are desirable. I draw the line at inflammation-causing grains and nutritionally poor starchy carbs (although, starchy carbs are okay in moderation -- a third of a baked potato versus the whole thing, for example).

[DukeNukem]

I came across this, which I had read before but realized it may be pertinent here?


Cheese and beef elevate insulin levels more then high carb foods such as pasta. (American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 50 (1997):1264)

A quarter pound of beef raises insulin levels in diabetics as much as a quarter pound of straight sugar. (Diabetes Care 7 (1984):465)

A single burgers worth of beef, or three slices of cheddar, boost insulin levels more than almost 2 cups of cooked pasta (American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 50 (1997):1264)

The Journal concluded that meat, compared to the amount of blood sugar it releases, seems to cause the most insulin secretion of any food tested.

Huh.. I don't get this. How is this possible?

I'm on the road currently, but I'm sure a little looking into this will show that it's not.

[Shepard]

People forget that insulin responds to AA levels in the blood as well as glucose.

[DukeNukem]

People forget that insulin responds to AA levels in the blood as well as glucose.

So it's more a function of the oils used to cook the beef?

[mike250]

so high protein= high insulin= bad heath

[TheFountain]

Okay, I want to know why some proponents of the Paleo diet will not admit to a distinction between quality carbs and crap carbs. You truly cannot associate the carb content in something like lentils to the carb content of white wonder bread. Completely different relative effect on insulin levels. Not to mention the isoflavones in higher fiber natural foods tend to offset the effects of glycation in the blood stream. Where is the indisputable scientific evidence that there is no difference in carb content of the forementioned foods with regard to insulin levels? Show me double blind studies. Otherwise you are just going on the word of Larry Taubes and his diet book, which is one of several dozen proclaiming to be the sole truth bearer.

I've not seen anyone diss quality carbs. I've gone out of my way to make clear that practically all vegetables and berries are desirable. I draw the line at inflammation-causing grains and nutritionally poor starchy carbs (although, starchy carbs are okay in moderation -- a third of a baked potato versus the whole thing, for example).

I understand this, But I have seen other's outright state that all carbs are bad. What is your opinion of the carbs found in legumes? Lentils and such? Inflammation or no inflammation? What about that versus the isolfavone benefits mentioned earlier?

[Shepard]

People forget that insulin responds to AA levels in the blood as well as glucose.

So it's more a function of the oils used to cook the beef?

Sorry, I should have specified. I meant amino acid, not arachidonic acid. This is one of the reasons milk elicits a higher insulin response than one would expect from the GI. Insulin responses also correlate with rate of amino acid appearance in the blood, particularly the BCAAs. One would have to look at the above-mentioned papers to see what they mean by insulin response. It's quite possible that a steak will have greater insulin AUC than some type of carbohydrate.

But note that since tissues wouldn't be taking up glucose (at least not more than is created via gluconeogenesis), it still leaves the body in a more insulin-sensitive state vs. the carbohydrates.

Edited by shepard, 29 January 2009 - 05:49 PM.

[mike250]

People forget that insulin responds to AA levels in the blood as well as glucose.

So it's more a function of the oils used to cook the beef?

Sorry, I should have specified. I meant amino acid, not arachidonic acid. This is one of the reasons milk elicits a higher insulin response than one would expect from the GI. Insulin responses also correlate with rate of amino acid appearance in the blood, particularly the BCAAs. One would have to look at the above-mentioned papers to see what they mean by insulin response. It's quite possible that a steak will have greater insulin AUC than some type of carbohydrate.

But note that since tissues wouldn't be taking up glucose (at least not more than is created via gluconeogenesis), it still leaves the body in a more insulin-sensitive state vs. the carbohydrates.

how much is too much amino acids though?

[Shepard]

how much is too much amino acids though?

I've long thought that too many people lay blame down on insulin and damage when they should have been looking at glucose floating around in the blood, so it doesn't really change anything in my eyes.

[mike250]

how much is too much amino acids though?

I've long thought that too many people lay blame down on insulin and damage when they should have been looking at glucose floating around in the blood, so it doesn't really change anything in my eyes.

so you can have high insulin levels but normal glucose levels and that would still be fine?

[Shepard]

No, insulin will drive down glucose levels anyway if the cell isn't resistant. A great way to keep it from inducing whole-body insulin resistance is a low carb diet or a lifestyle that keeps glycogen stores from being filled constantly. I'm just saying that one is bad over a much longer time frame, and one causes havoc immediately. Insulin does keep us all alive because it clears our blood of the things that will kill us quite quickly. Look at how Type I diabetics faired before we could administer insulin.

[TheFountain]

No, insulin will drive down glucose levels anyway if the cell isn't resistant. A great way to keep it from inducing whole-body insulin resistance is a low carb diet or a lifestyle that keeps glycogen stores from being filled constantly. I'm just saying that one is bad over a much longer time frame, and one causes havoc immediately. Insulin does keep us all alive because it clears our blood of the things that will kill us quite quickly. Look at how Type I diabetics faired before we could administer insulin.

I think this debacle is precisely why people should cycle diet. A couple days low carb, high fat, a couple days high fibre/carb, moderate fat, etc. I think we will find the most benefits from cycle dieting than with any other method thus far explored.

[DukeNukem]

No, insulin will drive down glucose levels anyway if the cell isn't resistant. A great way to keep it from inducing whole-body insulin resistance is a low carb diet or a lifestyle that keeps glycogen stores from being filled constantly. I'm just saying that one is bad over a much longer time frame, and one causes havoc immediately. Insulin does keep us all alive because it clears our blood of the things that will kill us quite quickly. Look at how Type I diabetics faired before we could administer insulin.

Regular Sprints Boost Metabolism
A regular high-intensity, three-minute workout has a significant effect on the body’s ability to process sugars. New research shows that a brief but intense exercise session every couple of days may be the best way to cut the risk of diabetes.

Combined Aerobic And Strength Exercises May Help Decrease Functional Limitations And Insulin Resistance Among Obese Older Adults
Sedentary, obese older adults appear to improve their functional abilities and reduce insulin resistance through a combination of resistance and aerobic exercises, according to a new report.

[DukeNukem]

Here's what I'm talking about as far as the uselessness of just knowing your total cholesterol, or LDL value.

Here's part of what Dr. Davis wrote, regarding an actual patient:

Kevin, a 56 year old financial planner, is 5 ft 7 inches, 180 lbs (BMI 28.2). His basic measures:

HDL 36 mg/dl
Triglycerides 333 mg/dl
BP 132/78
Waist circumference 34 inches
Blood sugar 98 mg/dl

Kevin meets the criteria for metabolic syndrome on only two of the five criteria and therefore does not "qualify" for the diagnosis.

Kevin's basic lipids showed LDL 170 mg/dl, HDL 36 mg/dl, triglycerides 333 mg/dl.

But take a look at his underlying lipoprotein patterns (NMR):

LDL particle number 2231 nmol/L (equivalent to a "true" LDL of 223 mg/dl)
Small LDL 1811 nmol/l
Large HDL 0.0 mg/dl


In other words, small LDL constitutes 81% of all LDL particles (1811/2231), a severe pattern. Large HDL is the healthy, protective fraction and Kevin has none. These are high-risk patterns for heart disease. These, too, are patterns of carbohydrate intolerance.

Foods that trigger small LDL and reduction in healthy, large HDL include sugars, wheat, and cornstarch. Kevin is carbohydrate-intolerant, although he lacks the (fasting) blood sugar aspect of carbohydrate intolerance. But he shows all the underlying lipoprotein and other metabolic phenomena associated with carbohydrate intolerance.

Edited by DukeNukem, 29 January 2009 - 07:04 PM.

[eternaltraveler]

Here's what I'm talking about as far as the uselessness of just knowing your total cholesterol, or LDL value.

Here's part of what Dr. Davis wrote, regarding an actual patient:

Kevin, a 56 year old financial planner, is 5 ft 7 inches, 180 lbs (BMI 28.2). His basic measures:

HDL 36 mg/dl
Triglycerides 333 mg/dl
BP 132/78
Waist circumference 34 inches
Blood sugar 98 mg/dl

Kevin meets the criteria for metabolic syndrome on only two of the five criteria and therefore does not "qualify" for the diagnosis.

Kevin's basic lipids showed LDL 170 mg/dl, HDL 36 mg/dl, triglycerides 333 mg/dl.

But take a look at his underlying lipoprotein patterns (NMR):

LDL particle number 2231 nmol/L (equivalent to a "true" LDL of 223 mg/dl)
Small LDL 1811 nmol/l
Large HDL 0.0 mg/dl


In other words, small LDL constitutes 81% of all LDL particles (1811/2231), a severe pattern. Large HDL is the healthy, protective fraction and Kevin has none. These are high-risk patterns for heart disease. These, too, are patterns of carbohydrate intolerance.

Foods that trigger small LDL and reduction in healthy, large HDL include sugars, wheat, and cornstarch. Kevin is carbohydrate-intolerant, although he lacks the (fasting) blood sugar aspect of carbohydrate intolerance. But he shows all the underlying lipoprotein and other metabolic phenomena associated with carbohydrate intolerance.

I agree entirely with the above findings. Knowing LDL particle diameter is very important. Small LDL particles penetrate the arterial lining much more effectively. Knowing total cholesterol in absence of knowing HDL is next to useless in normal people (but if very high is diagnostic of a genetic lipid disorder). Having HDL below 40 in men is considered high risk, and in conjunction with the data concerning the HDL particle size the risk is very high indeed.

thanks for clarifying.

Edited by elrond, 29 January 2009 - 07:16 PM.

[Erok]

Maybe start another thread with the self-programmed vs wear-tear debate? More people will likely see it and comment that way.

I will have to look for some studies, true, the ratio does matter, and a LDL level alone doesn't tell you much, now, a very high HDL itself is not required if there is not alot of fat around to scavenge, so the ratio is important.
The only study I found quickly is not specific enough, as raw foodists eating many nuts may throw out the ratios very easily. The majority nuts are not providing the proper ratios.

The ratio of omega 3 to omega 6 in most fruit and greens - veg is 1:1.
Even without avocado or seeds, nuts, one can maintain 1:1 and adequate levels thereof, assuming adequate intake of sweet/sub-acid/citrus/non-sweet "veggie" fruits & greens.
If one wanted to raise HDL higher, or overall EFA's, one could add ground flax, or Hemp, or certain other seeds/fruits.

Purslane is a type of green that contains higher amounts of DPA and EPA then most plants. (although all greens have EFA's including these 2).

A key point here is that by exercising regularly, one can intake more overall calories, and thus the amino acids, vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients, antioxidants, (and most likely additional undiscovered beneficial compounds), that accompany them.

Fruit is the best source of carbs, glycemic load is important, glycemic index does not take all factors into account. look up the glycemic load of various items. As far as legumes , no, from my research they are poor food combining outright, notice the gas that beans and the like give one, impaired digestion, and fermentation. Also, legumes have too much protein. Excess protein = excess acidity and buffering from alkaline reserves.

I thought the poster was referring to arachadonic acid which involved with pro-inflmmatory pathways and is associated with animal products. But yes, the AA ratios matter too.

I will have to add more another time I just popped in.

Keep up the stimulating talks.

[Sillewater]

I find this article by Anthony Colpo is very convincing and agrees with much of the low carb studies I have seen and what many low-carbers on this forum seem to advocate in terms of why high fat intake is good.

http://www.anthonyco..._dangerous.html

[sthira]

The issue here is that we--people trying to live as long as possible--can only work with the best possible current evidence. The evidence of people on a paleo diet shows that it reduces inflammation, optimizes lipid levels, especially by reducing triglycerides, greatly reducing LP(a), and elevating HDL. Note that LDL and total cholesterol, as standalone values, are of practically no value. Don't tell me that a raw diet or a vegetarian diet leads to low cholesterol--doesn't mean jack shit. The values that matters are the three that the paleo diet perfectly optimizes. Maybe a raw diet does this, too. Would love to see some actual lipid figures of those on such a diet.

I'm a 42-year old male, I'm 6'2" and weight 155 pounds. I've been a vegetarian nearly my entire life (my parents were hippies), I've been consciously practicing CR for two years (since learning about it), but I think I've been actually doing CR for my entire life. I've been a raw vegan for two years, but I've made some changes recently, some of which I've made since learning new things on this website from people like you.

Here are my Lipid Studies, which were taken six months ago.
Total Chol: 153
Trig: 27
HDL: 62
LDL 86
VLDL: 5

I'm diligent about recording exactly what I eat every day, and I've been doing this for several years. Recently, I've been cutting back on fruit (I was nearly a fruitarian) and increasing fat. The fat I eat is mainly dark chocolate, olive oil, coconut oil, and avocados. Also, I'm not 100% raw. Especially in the winter when I get cold -- I've been eating cooked sweet potatoes, and boiling brussels sprouts. I eat nothing processed, no bread, no rice, no grains beyond quinoa sometimes (also cooked), I eat nothing from a box, package, can, container, and stick to whole foods. I supplement with resveratrol, red yeast rice, grape seed extract, and D3. I was drinking a nightly glass of red wine, until I read Dr. Amen's book about alcohol's destructiveness to the brain, so I've stopped all alcohol. I hit the bong a few times a month.

My organic/inorganic chemistry from the same blood test as above was:
Total Protein: 6.7
Albumin: 3.9
Calcium: 9.4
Glucose: 90
Bun: 7

I had a lot of other things tested, including B12, which I was really curious about since I've eaten so little meat in my life, and my level was 298, which surprised me.

The only footnote of concern was an elevated iron level, which was 166, and my doctor told me to donate blood every now and then and back off the leafy greens a bit.

[Erok]

Maybe start another thread with the self-programmed vs wear-tear debate? More people will likely see it and comment that way.

I will have to look for some studies, true, the ratio does matter, and a LDL level alone doesn't tell you much, now, a very high HDL itself is not required if there is not alot of fat around to scavenge, so the ratio is important.
The only study I found quickly is not specific enough, as raw foodists eating many nuts may throw out the ratios very easily. The majority nuts are not providing the proper ratios.

The ratio of omega 3 to omega 6 in most fruit and greens - veg is 1:1.
Even without avocado or seeds, nuts, one can maintain 1:1 and adequate levels thereof, assuming adequate intake of sweet/sub-acid/citrus/non-sweet "veggie" fruits & greens.
If one wanted to raise HDL higher, or overall EFA's, one could add ground flax, or Hemp, or certain other seeds/fruits.

Purslane is a type of green that contains higher amounts of DPA and EPA then most plants. (although all greens have EFA's including these 2).

A key point here is that by exercising regularly, one can intake more overall calories, and thus the amino acids, vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients, antioxidants, (and most likely additional undiscovered beneficial compounds), that accompany them.

Fruit is the best source of carbs, glycemic load is important, glycemic index does not take all factors into account. look up the glycemic load of various items. As far as legumes , no, from my research they are poor food combining outright, notice the gas that beans and the like give one, impaired digestion, and fermentation. Also, legumes have too much protein. Excess protein = excess acidity and buffering from alkaline reserves.

I thought the poster was referring to arachadonic acid which involved with pro-inflmmatory pathways and is associated with animal products. But yes, the AA ratios matter too.

I will have to add more another time I just popped in.

Keep up the stimulating talks.

Please this dude ate meat and bread (both acid forming) and blames it on the lack of fat, actually, he was likely deficient in EFA's as well as vitamins, minerals, plenty of other things too I'd venture. He had too much protein, likely dairy, and plain up harmful products.

The safest way to do low-fat right is to eat an abundance of fruit and greens. Greens are critical for the EFA's and minerals.

Our fruit is de-mineralized somewhat (still has em' but not as much) and likely lacking in other areas too (have only studied the mineralization recently).

Yeah and what diet did they feed the monkeys? Little pellets of processed crap no doubt, in an unnatural environment to boot.

If someone was really concerned, they could have some flax seed, and some coconut together (increases absorption as he says)


I was gonna go on but realized I should be sleeping , and I just keep seeing more holes to punch in this dude, the things he's using for evidence....

Anyways, I of course will look into anything mentioned here and the references he is quoting. As far as emotionally, I know fat can numb what we are dealing with, rather then actually dealing with it, so call that irritability? I think the people studied are just feeling. And likely eating like crap too.

the thing is "low fat" diet is only a piece, and these studies, are done on people eating cooked crap and grains, yes, I think grains are just as unhealthy as meat, so someone eating MORE grains, is not going to experience as much benefit from having low-fat. the type of fat matters to, cooked oil is toxic. just like alot of cooked things. any refined oil is not a whole food. yes, vegetable oils are big offenders, the bread/ lean meat / grain / vegetable oil folks are not in the same ball game as fruit/greens and veggies raw vegans. just doesn't work here.

Read the China study by t. collin campbell, the largest nutritional study ever performed.
interestingly enough they are referring to grains even , those like pritkin, they got part of the deal, but chose the wrong carb source due to the (irrational) fear of trigylcercides in fruit.

This mans a uber-meatetarian. he thinks our ancestors sat around eating beef livers steaks and eggs.

dont got time right now ill leave this where it is

[Erok]

forgot to hit post on this last night
---

And what was your diet like before, sthira?

and I don't think occasional ganja is much to worry about (or certain psychedelics), much less so than alcohol.

notice anything from the supplements?

i don't do any supplements anymore myself

going to get some blood panels for first time in a while tomorrow, ill be interested to see what it says.

I haven't been a long term raw vegan, but due to having colon disease, etc, from eating a high fat, high meat, etc. diet, among other factors, I have found my way, and for many other reasons, to the path I am now.

I do plug in my diet into nutridiary and calculate macro and micronutrients.

We need 0.8g protein per kg of body weight (or goal weight). for an average male this is about 56g. Of this amount, we also need to make sure we get enough individual amino acids. Methionine, in particular, can be low in raw vegan diets. We need 10mg methionine per kg of body weight.

The RDA for EFA's for men is 1600mg for omega 3 and 17000mg for omega 6. These figures are not necessarily representative of our needs. More adequate is consuming 2000-3000mg omega 3 and about 2500-4000mg omega 6.

Minerals, no less than 19mg Iron. This is more than enough for a male, but no less than this for safety. 800-1000mg calcium, with phosphorus and magnesium being no higher than calcium, preferably equal to or lower than calcium. 35-55mcg selenium, 11mg zinc (this is more than enough but a good safety measure), sodium 1000mg if youre inactive or have relatively low activity, upto 1600mg if youre very active.

[woly]

Ok so this is my stab at addressing some of what shepard has said in this thread.

1. while some low carb foods such as meat exhibit a high insulin response, i beleive that the rise in insulin is met with a glucagon which blunts the fat storage effects. however to what extent, i am unsure

2. ASP is another fat storage mediator, the research is still very new to me but it seems that:
a) it is an extremly potent stimulator of fat storage
b) insulin itself seems to raise ASP - a possible additional negative to a high carb diet?
c) while ASP rises during a high fat meal, it seems that it is most potently activated by chylomicrons. this point seems important to me because chylomicrons have a half life of about 5 minutes in the blood which gives me the impression that while ASP would rise after eating a high fat meal, the rise would be short lived. Additionaly, without something to stimulate insulin (which would then stimulate ASP) the peak ASP concentrations would again be lower.

[Dmitri]

The researchers apparently didn't take into account the satiating effect of low-carb diets.

The study is less controlled since the number of calories were not the same over different diets, but in another way it's more realistic since that's what happens on a low carb diet.

I weighed 175 with a BMI of about 26.2. After going on a low carb diet, I was down to 150 after about 3-4 weeks, with my previously high triglycerides having plummeted.

It will be interesting to see what the combination of normalized vitamin D levels and recent generous coconut oil intake will have done to my 42 mg/dl HDL.

StephenB

So even after 3-4 weeks on a low carb diet you still had a 42 mg/dl HDL? Do you exercise or take supplements? It's surprising that you and zoolander have lower HDL levels than me (62 mg/dl last time I had my blood checked) when I consume the following carbs: oats, wheat, brown rice, pinto beans, lentils, fruits, potato, corn and carrots. Though I exercise and drink green tea so it must be working, not sure why it's not working for you guys. Zoolander also mentioned adding coconut oil to his diet to increase his HDL levels on his regimen thread (I use canola oil).

Edited by Dmitri, 04 February 2009 - 02:43 AM.

[stephen_b]

I'm a 42-year old male, I'm 6'2" and weight 155 pounds. I've been a vegetarian nearly my entire life (my parents were hippies), I've been consciously practicing CR for two years (since learning about it), but I think I've been actually doing CR for my entire life. I've been a raw vegan for two years, but I've made some changes recently, some of which I've made since learning new things on this website from people like you.

Nice numbers and interesting story sthira. It seems that your diet would be hard to do, just in terms of finding enough food that meets your standards. Where do you end up getting your protein from? What about legumes? Interesting that you are grain free. I'm not 100% grain free, but gluten free (by choice).

As for iron by the way, eating plant sources of iron along with vitamin C makes the iron much bioavailable (PMID 12450906). I had high iron too, and they like me at the blood center. No more spinach salad with tangerine slices for me.

StephenB

[Shepard]

1. while some low carb foods such as meat exhibit a high insulin response, i beleive that the rise in insulin is met with a glucagon which blunts the fat storage effects. however to what extent, i am unsure

How would it blunt any fat storage effects (not that I'm on the insulin = fat bandwagon)? Glucagon is also used to help maintain glucose homeostasis. More insulinogenic proteins should elicit greater glucagon responses since insulin would drive down the glucose (created via gluconeogenesis) more than optimal.

c) while ASP rises during a high fat meal, it seems that it is most potently activated by chylomicrons. this point seems important to me because chylomicrons have a half life of about 5 minutes in the blood which gives me the impression that while ASP would rise after eating a high fat meal, the rise would be short lived.

Depends on how much fat you eat.

[sthira]

Nice numbers and interesting story sthira. It seems that your diet would be hard to do, just in terms of finding enough food that meets your standards. Where do you end up getting your protein from? What about legumes? Interesting that you are grain free. I'm not 100% grain free, but gluten free (by choice).

As for iron by the way, eating plant sources of iron along with vitamin C makes the iron much bioavailable (PMID 12450906). I had high iron too, and they like me at the blood center. No more spinach salad with tangerine slices for me.

StephenB

Probably to my own detriment, but I don't worry too much about protein. I'd like to learn, though. How much to consume? Yesterday I ate about 50 grams. But it's all plant protein found in common vegetables and fruits, and I understand this may not be as useful as animal protein. Sometimes I eat lentils, sometimes I eat quinoa, sometimes another legume or two. For me, eating a wide variety of raw fruits and vegetables isn't hard, it's clean and easy and inexpensive. Except for the berries, which break the bank. I also fast a couple of times a week -- usually 36-hour fasts. And like you, I've cut back on spinach salad with citrus.

[Ben]

From the "Free the Animal" blog (not a title I personally would have chosen):

'Instead, how about listening to a man who has held over 5,000 beating human hearts in his hands? Dwight Lundell, MD:

"I trained for many years with other prominent physicians labeled “opinion makers.” Bombarded with scientific literature, continually attending education seminars, we opinion makers insisted heart disease resulted from the simple fact of elevated blood cholesterol.

The only accepted therapy was prescribing medications to lower cholesterol and a diet that severely restricted fat intake. The latter of course we insisted would lower cholesterol and heart disease. Deviations from these recommendations were considered heresy and could quite possibly result in malpractice.

It Is Not Working!"'

Edited by Ben - Aus, 05 February 2009 - 07:45 AM.

[woly]

1. while some low carb foods such as meat exhibit a high insulin response, i beleive that the rise in insulin is met with a glucagon which blunts the fat storage effects. however to what extent, i am unsure

How would it blunt any fat storage effects (not that I'm on the insulin = fat bandwagon)? Glucagon is also used to help maintain glucose homeostasis. More insulinogenic proteins should elicit greater glucagon responses since insulin would drive down the glucose (created via gluconeogenesis) more than optimal.

Well it was my thinking that insulinogenic proteins have a concomittment rise in glucagon, this doesnt happen to the same extent with carbohydrates. So if we have insulin rising, which increases fat storage, along with glucagon rising which helps burn fat then we have blunted fat storage activity compared to carbohydrates which exhibit mostly a rise in insulin without the glucagon.

c) while ASP rises during a high fat meal, it seems that it is most potently activated by chylomicrons. this point seems important to me because chylomicrons have a half life of about 5 minutes in the blood which gives me the impression that while ASP would rise after eating a high fat meal, the rise would be short lived.

Depends on how much fat you eat.

Could you elaborate?