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5-HTP & L-Tryptophan - Serotonin Heart Safety


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18 replies to this topic

#1 lieb2101

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 01:20 PM


5-HTP & L-Tryptophan are taken to elevate serotonin levels the brain.
The question is, where is the serotonin formed and when does it get to the brain?

I will relate what I've read online but I would like some help to confirm or deny the following.

First off, excess serotonin in the circulitory system is bad and can damage your heart valves. However, serotonin in the brain is good for numerous reasons. 5-HTP in the circulitory system is ok and is absorbed by the brain directly (not always efficiently) and converted to serotonin there. I believe the L-Tryptophan goes through a similar mechanism as it is a precursor to 5-HTP.

Taken orally, 5-HTP can be converted to serotonin by the digestive system and the liver, thus spreading serotonin into the circulitory system. Taken sublingualy (powder under the tounge) the 5-HTP goes directly to the blood system without being converted to serotonin and can thus be absorbed by the brain (I'm looking for confirmaiton on this statement). What I also don't know is if L-Tryptophan is any different when taken orally or if it is also results in serotonin in the circulitory system.

Can anyone shed any light on this for me (with references?)
Thanks,
B

#2 Not_Supplied

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 03:41 PM

Also interested in this as a tryptophan/5htp user. Anyone?

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#3 stephen_b

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Posted 23 January 2009 - 09:13 PM

That's why I avoid 5-HTP -- it bypasses regulating mechanisms in the body. It makes more sense to me to give the body precursors (like tryptophan for serotonin and phenylalanine for dopamine) and let it decide how much of what to make of them.

StephenB
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#4 Temp

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:08 PM

Bump, I think its a very good question that deserves further answer or study lest we can all say "i feel happy with the 5 days of life I have left"

#5 enoch1

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 01:56 PM

Has anyone tried the sublingual method of 5-htp I know it comes in capsules you can open them up and sprinkle it under your tongue. Is it more effective ??

#6 shaggy

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 07:29 PM

Not sure of the mechanism but the only elevated substance from supplementing 2-300mg a day of 5-HTP in various blood and urine analysis was an extremely high 5-HIAA which I believe is not deletrious to the body in any way?

If 5-HTP was dangerous in any way I would have thought there would have been many reported issues as it's very popular.

#7 dustinw

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 03:03 AM

Has anyone tried the sublingual method of 5-htp I know it comes in capsules you can open them up and sprinkle it under your tongue. Is it more effective ??


I have some 25mg sublingual tablets, they just dissolve in your mouth in a few seconds. It seems to be about as effective as the regular kind (which, IME, is not very).

I'm also wondering whether the sublingual form mitigates the heart valve risk. I've heard that it does, but I don't understand why that would be the case. I understand it would be faster acting, going straight to the blood stream, but once there it seems like it would do the same thing. Unless metabolizing it in the liver changes it in some way? The bottle also says avoid taking B6 within two hours of taking 5-htp, which I've read has something to do with the amount of serotonin that makes it in to the peripheral nervous system and not the CNS.

#8 TheFountain

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 09:51 PM

Where is the study everyone is referencing about 5htp=heart valve damage? Oh wait, there is no study, right?

Why are the alarmists taking over this section of the forum?
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#9 unregistered_user

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 05:50 AM

So how REAL is this heart valve issue? I'm taking 5-HTP and noticing minor chest pains but have no clue if it's 5-HTP related or perhaps the cause of a cocktail of supplements.

Anyway, is 5-HTP something to avoid or can it be taken safely despite the information going around about serotonin in the bloodstream affecting the heart?
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#10 panhedonic

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 05:07 AM

bumpy :)
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#11 Gnumf

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:58 PM

i use 5 htp powder sublingual when i feel depressed and it brings my mood up like nothing else. If i feel very bad (generally the result of a bad nootropic combo experience) i can use very high dose (about 200mg 2 or 3 times consecutively).

#12 BioFreak

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:41 PM

Shouldn't cause heart problems. If it would, a lot of people would have had problems as of now - 5-htp is very popular.
If I were you I were more concerned about catecholamine depletion, all the sideffects that come with that, and the killing of romantic feelings (may be great if your girlfriend kicked you out recently though). Of course everything is dose dependent, but listen to my words:
At higher dosages 5-htp is just the same as taking an ssri. Been there, had all those nice ssri side effects, but with 5-htp. After all, increasing serotonin is increasing serotonin no matter through what mechanism. Only that ssris can deplete serotonin long term, while 5-htp can sustain high levels of serotonin. If you take the cofactors. If you make sure that your catecholamines stay high. If you take all cofactors for the catecholamine production and tyrosine. If you supplement with a methyl donor and cysteine. Only then.
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#13 deeptrance

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 07:45 PM

At higher dosages 5-htp is just the same as taking an ssri. Been there, had all those nice ssri side effects, but with 5-htp. After all, increasing serotonin is increasing serotonin no matter through what mechanism.


SSRIs are potent drugs which have complex modes of action that are entirely different from those of a precursor. And the SSRIs differ from one another. They have direct effects on agonizing and antagonizing some receptors, they affect the GABA and glutamate systems, and they may have other actions which remain unknown. In terms of their effectiveness compared to 5-HTP for treating depression, they're similar according to research, but being equally effective at treating depression doesn't equate to acting in the same manner. Even the effect of "increasing serotonin" is questionable as a simple cause-effect explanation for efficacy with respect to depression. I wish I could find the original reference but I've read a study that demonstrated equal efficacy in treating depression from increasing AND decreasing baseline brain serotonin! Raises some intriguing questions.

Here is a comprehensive and user-friendly summary of tentative answers to the questions asked in this thread:
http://www.life-enha...cts-and-fiction

Excerpts:
"...it is clear that 5-HTP raises brain serotonin levels - with or without carbidopa or benserazide, and with or without vitamin B6. But the evidence indicates that it's better to take 5-HTP without carbidopa or benserazide and with vitamin B6.7"

"...even if 5-HTP caused huge increases in serum serotonin levels - which it has not been demonstrated to do - there is no evidence that this, in itself, would be harmful or that it could increase heart valve problems."

"There is no evidence that 5-HTP has ever been deadly to anyone. Furthermore, there is no theoretical reason for suspecting this. By the way, there are nearly 5,000 papers referencing 5-HTP in the electronically referenced literature."

#14 Atropy

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 11:59 AM

So does L-Tryptophan cause heart valve damage?

#15 Mr. Pink

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 03:44 AM

So does L-Tryptophan cause heart valve damage?


anyone know? i'm thinking no, because it's enzyme limited in conversion to serotonin unlike 5htp

#16 pspa123

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 06:09 PM

In my opinion if these work it is by placebo effect. It seems the doors have been blown off the whole serotonin deficiency hypothesis as an explanation for how anti depressants work and it makes even less sense that just dumping more precursors into the brain is going to make any long-term difference in serotonin levels anyhow, as there will be some compensatory offsetting mechanism.
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#17 Atropy

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:47 PM

At higher dosages 5-htp is just the same as taking an ssri. Been there, had all those nice ssri side effects, but with 5-htp. After all, increasing serotonin is increasing serotonin no matter through what mechanism.


SSRIs are potent drugs which have complex modes of action that are entirely different from those of a precursor. And the SSRIs differ from one another. They have direct effects on agonizing and antagonizing some receptors, they affect the GABA and glutamate systems, and they may have other actions which remain unknown. In terms of their effectiveness compared to 5-HTP for treating depression, they're similar according to research, but being equally effective at treating depression doesn't equate to acting in the same manner. Even the effect of "increasing serotonin" is questionable as a simple cause-effect explanation for efficacy with respect to depression. I wish I could find the original reference but I've read a study that demonstrated equal efficacy in treating depression from increasing AND decreasing baseline brain serotonin! Raises some intriguing questions.



What about Lexapro?Its a pure SSRI,correct?Would Lexapro function exactly like 5HTP,and are there any studies to suggest that 5HTP could be as good or better than SSRI's?

Serotonin depletion is something I don't like since I'm on this for the long term.Isnt it the reason for ssri poop out?Or is that more likely receptor downregulation?

#18 deeptrance

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:57 AM

Would Lexapro function exactly like 5HTP,and are there any studies to suggest that 5HTP could be as good or better than SSRI's?


Lexapro is an SSRI and it does NOT function like 5-HTP. The main effect of 5-htp is to provide the body/brain with additional serotonin precursors, which is helpful if there's a shortage of tryptophan or other important factors in the diet. 5-htp has a minor complication in that it can be changed into serotonin in places where it's best not to have it, but that's a topic I'm not qualified to explore further.

As I said above, the SSRI class of pharmaceutical is far more complex than any serotonin-boosting supplement. For example, most of them antagonize one of the 5HT receptors (5HT1a IIRC), and this effect is responsible for many of the unpleasant side effects experienced during the first few weeks of use. A major reason that the medication's effects improve after a while is that the 5HT1a receptors up-regulate in response to the antagonist, so there's a return to baseline of that system and in the meantime there has been a gradual build-up of available serotonin.

But that's just one of many effects of Lexapro. I have a close friend who is a brilliant psychiatrist, and he once explained to me how drugs like Lexapro tend to diminish GABA release. He told me this because I had been hospitalized after having a seizure on Celexa, which is very similar to Lexapro. He said that my seizure was probably due more to my GABA receptors going bonkers rather than serotonin syndrome. I said I would tell my psychiatrist about this but he responded, "Don't bother, they won't understand."

The point of that story is to say that SSRIs are complex creatures. They can work wonders for you, they can do little or nothing, and they can fuck you up. You really just have to give one a try to see what happens. It might be an excellent choice for you!

Serotonin depletion is something I don't like since I'm on this for the long term.Isnt it the reason for ssri poop out?Or is that more likely receptor downregulation?


I don't know the answers to those questions, but receptor downregulation sounds plausible. I'm in a support group for people with combined mental health problems and addiction. We share success and horror stories about medications. In the 4 years I've been attending, it seems like almost everyone has had to change medications because what they were taking stopped working. Or they change dosages. Sometimes people have to go up, sometimes they have to go down on dosage. Fortunately there are so many alternatives that everyone seems to find something that works for them if they're persistent about trying.

Edited by deeptrance, 27 February 2014 - 01:58 AM.


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#19 Flex

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:25 PM

Maybe some one is interrested to the fact that at least, SSRI´s do thickens the arteries.

This sound not bad on the firstlook, but it means that the vessels are lesser elastic, which makes them more prone to bruise.

 

Antidepressants Linked to Thicker Arteries

 http://shared.web.em...r-arteries.html






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