11 replies to this topic

[R.ticle One]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post at ImmInst. Allow me to briefly introduce myself, and offer any relevant details which may help with suggestions you have.

I'm an almost twenty seven year old male. My primary concern (within this post) is that of sleep, and the lack of "deep" sleep which I feel I'm missing most nights.

I have had fairy vivid/strange dreams and dream recall for much of my life. I understand that the REM stage is an essential component of sleep, but I feel that I have it in excess. I wake up frequently in the night, always from a dream, and seem to continue dreaming as soon as I fall back asleep again. I cannot remember the last time I woke up without a recollection of what I dreamed.

It seems like my mind does not shut off. I can stay in bed for ten hours and still need another quarter of an hour or more to drag myself out in the mornings. Sleep has become a hindrance as well as it is a help, because I often wake up exhausted, like I've been running, fighting, arguing, contemplating of generally being highly active all night long - which is not surprising when I consider how conscious I am of dreaming.

This leads me to believe that I have a problem with achieving stage 3 and/or 4 of sleep, the delta wave stage where I'd not be engaged in dreaming like I so often am, and which I'm sure would help me actually feel more refreshed, healed and recovered upon waking, instead of weighted down, fuzzy, tired and depressed.

I can usually fall asleep within the hour, though my mind is highly active then, too, and can generally fall asleep again within minutes of waking in the night, but the dreams, the dreams! They are too much.
________________________________________________________________________________
_

So - there's the basic problem. Here's the basic history, not necessarily in any particular order:

1. I have (as far as I understand) HPPD - Hallucinogen Perception Persisting Disorder - read more about it at http://hppdonline.com

...basically 24/7 visual disturbances/perceptual changes due to the use of hallucinogens. In my case, it was P. Cubensis mushrooms, too many of them - it was a frightening trip - though I also have a past history of using large quantities of cannabis, some ecstasy, and amphetamine. (Ex-raver)

2. No prescription drugs. Once my GP gave me a trial of Neurontin (for the "flickering" and "visual snow" so endemic to HPPD), but it made me feel so strange, and dramatically increased pre-sleep imagery in an unpleasant way, like reeling through television episodes at fast forward speed or being in a large cave of surreal crystals.

3. Environmental sensitivities (don't feel good in most modern workplaces, perfumes and synthetic fragrances generally make my feel whacked out/irritable/confused, CFL bulbs, especially at close range aggravate me, and I tend not to do too well long term in places filled with wireless). Classic (though fortunately not severe as some people) accompaniments as Candida imbalance, fatigue, digestive issues, etc.

4. Unusual thoughts - meaning exactly that, sometimes I have odd or disturbing thoughts, fears, etc. Some anxiety, depression, and difficulty comprehending things, or depressive states. I have not seen anyone about this, and am unsure if it comes from worrying too much, is related to past drug abuse, a sensitivity to something environmental, or any combination of these things.

5. I use no illegal drugs now. I seldom drink. My caffiene intake is moderate. I try to eat as healthily as I can. I take my multivitamin and mineral complex. I try to work on my attitude, and that can be difficult when you feel like crap most of the time.

6. My right pupil is (always has been) bigger than my left if that counts for anything.

7. When I was in primary school I fell on the back of my head on the ground, hard enough to make me lose consciousness for a few seconds, or least severely disorient me. When I came to, my ears were ringing.

8. I have mild tinnitus.

9. For sleep, I am currently trying a tincture of valerian, passionflower, hops, chamomile, motherwort, and california poppy. It seems to help with general anxiety and makes me feel sleepier and more relaxed, but I took it last night and still had too much dreaming. I will try Kava Kava.

10. In some ways I consider myself quite healthy, but all this mental stuff/sleeping business/environmental issues are still of concern.

11. Because of my psychological state, I am averse to trying brainwave entrainment to achieve deeper sleep.
________________________________________________________________________________
_

So - having given you my medical history - I try to do what I can for my other health issues, which I'm sure contribute to a less than ideal quality of sleep. Of course if you have any thoughts about them I'd like to hear them, but I'm especially after any supplements which may help to achieve a consistently longer and less interrupted deep, dreamless healing sleep.

Cheers!

R.ticle One

Edited for obvious typos.

Edited by R.ticle One, 22 January 2009 - 04:17 PM.

[nameless]

Have you considered getting a sleep study done? If not, I'd think it might be useful for you. Sleep docs may have some recommendations or medications that a family doctor wouldn't know of.

I mentioned Suntheanine in another recent sleep post here. It might help some, possibly. It supposedly calms the brain, without making you drowsy.

[Connor MacLeod]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post at ImmInst. Allow me to briefly introduce myself, and offer any relevant details which may help with suggestions you have.

I'm an almost twenty seven year old male. My primary concern (within this post) is that of sleep, and the lack of "deep" sleep which I feel I'm missing most nights.

I have had fairy vivid/strange dreams and dream recall for much of my life. I understand that the REM stage is an essential component of sleep, but I feel that I have it in excess. I wake up frequently in the night, always from a dream, and seem to continue dreaming as soon as I fall back asleep again. I cannot remember the last time I woke up without a recollection of what I dreamed.

It seems like my mind does not shut off. I can stay in bed for ten hours and still need another quarter of an hour or more to drag myself out in the mornings. Sleep has become a hindrance as well as it is a help, because I often wake up exhausted, like I've been running, fighting, arguing, contemplating of generally being highly active all night long - which is not surprising when I consider how conscious I am of dreaming.

This leads me to believe that I have a problem with achieving stage 3 and/or 4 of sleep, the delta wave stage where I'd not be engaged in dreaming like I so often am, and which I'm sure would help me actually feel more refreshed, healed and recovered upon waking, instead of weighted down, fuzzy, tired and depressed.

I can usually fall asleep within the hour, though my mind is highly active then, too, and can generally fall asleep again within minutes of waking in the night, but the dreams, the dreams! They are too much.
________________________________________________________________________________
_

So - there's the basic problem. Here's the basic history, not necessarily in any particular order:

1. I have (as far as I understand) HPPD - Hallucinogen Perception Persisting Disorder - read more about it at http://hppdonline.com

...basically 24/7 visual disturbances/perceptual changes due to the use of hallucinogens. In my case, it was P. Cubensis mushrooms, too many of them - it was a frightening trip - though I also have a past history of using large quantities of cannabis, some ecstasy, and amphetamine. (Ex-raver)

2. No prescription drugs. Once my GP gave me a trial of Neurontin (for the "flickering" and "visual snow" so endemic to HPPD), but it made me feel so strange, and dramatically increased pre-sleep imagery in an unpleasant way, like reeling through television episodes at fast forward speed or being in a large cave of surreal crystals.

3. Environmental sensitivities (don't feel good in most modern workplaces, perfumes and synthetic fragrances generally make my feel whacked out/irritable/confused, CFL bulbs, especially at close range aggravate me, and I tend not to do too well long term in places filled with wireless). Classic (though fortunately not severe as some people) accompaniments as Candida imbalance, fatigue, digestive issues, etc.

4. Unusual thoughts - meaning exactly that, sometimes I have odd or disturbing thoughts, fears, etc. Some anxiety, depression, and difficulty comprehending things, or depressive states. I have not seen anyone about this, and am unsure if it comes from worrying too much, is related to past drug abuse, a sensitivity to something environmental, or any combination of these things.

5. I use no illegal drugs now. I seldom drink. My caffiene intake is moderate. I try to eat as healthily as I can. I take my multivitamin and mineral complex. I try to work on my attitude, and that can be difficult when you feel like crap most of the time.

6. My right pupil is (always has been) bigger than my left if that counts for anything.

7. When I was in primary school I fell on the back of my head on the ground, hard enough to make me lose consciousness for a few seconds, or least severely disorient me. When I came to, my ears were ringing.

8. I have mild tinnitus.

9. For sleep, I am currently trying a tincture of valerian, passionflower, hops, chamomile, motherwort, and california poppy. It seems to help with general anxiety and makes me feel sleepier and more relaxed, but I took it last night and still had too much dreaming. I will try Kava Kava.

10. In some ways I consider myself quite healthy, but all this mental stuff/sleeping business/environmental issues are still of concern.

11. Because of my psychological state, I am averse to trying brainwave entrainment to achieve deeper sleep.
________________________________________________________________________________
_

So - having given you my medical history - I try to do what I can for my other health issues, which I'm sure contribute to a less than ideal quality of sleep. Of course if you have any thoughts about them I'd like to hear them, but I'm especially after any supplements which may help to achieve a consistently longer and less interrupted deep, dreamless healing sleep.

Cheers!

R.ticle One

Edited for obvious typos.

I also have what I consider an excessive quantity of REM sleep. I haven't had much success with supplements, but I find the following helpful (in no particular order):

1) meditation
2) avoiding excessive mental stimulation before sleep (e.g. turn TV, computer off...put on some classical music)
3) vigorous exercise
4) sleeping on the side instead of the back
5) not eating at least a couple of hours before sleep
6) keeping to a regular sleep schedule (as Poor Richard said: "Early to bed, early to rise...")

I'm not sure how useful (1) would be for you given that you are experiencing some disturbing thoughts, but I reckon you could probably replace it with some relaxing reading or perhaps the playing of a musical instrument if you know one - or feel inclined to learn one - and still obtain some of the benefit.

[bgwithadd]

Tinnitus and the eye thing, I would worry about neurological damage. You might consider getting tested for lead or mercury levels.

Vivid dreams and restless sleep can be due to high dopamine/schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. Same with some of your other issues.

Don't think that supplements aren't drugs. They can have the same good and bad benefits. Something being a drug doesn't necessarily make it bad, either, but with psychiatry if you don't have a diagnosis you are going to do a lot more harm than good.

Making that diagnosis for your case probably won't be easy, and you might have a combination of problems.

If you try to just treat the symptoms without figuring out what's wrong, you will have the same problems as you did with neurontin. Neurontin is just a gaba analogue, and is very similar to what many supplements do. If you respond poorly to that you will respond poorly to MANY supplements.

Figuring out what's really the issue is the priority, but in the mean time you can't go wrong with neuroprotectants and things that promote neurogenesis, especially if you have some kind of neurological damage/toxicity.

[R.ticle One]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for the replies!

I had considered have a sleep study done, but I always worry about how "realistically" I would sleep, knowing that I'm being monitored.

I am often trying to work on my thoughts.

Yesterday I stopped using caffeine - I go through periods of stopping and starting it, but I feel that I may have some level of intolerance for it, or my adrenal system is a bit fatigued. At times it (while pleasantly stimulating me) makes me feel a bit "mental", you know what I mean? I know that some people respond very negatively to caffeine - I have even heard of it acting like a psychedelic in cases of severe allergy. I think I dreamed a bit less last night, or have less recollection of my dreams. Feeling a bit better today.

The tinnitus - I wonder about it, but I could attribute it to the couple of years of raving to ungodly loud music without earplugs (in the beginning), whistles, airhorns, people shouting in eachother's ear, and such auditory rave-paraphernalia and communication methods

I'm pretty sure the uneven pupils have always been with me. I should check old photos and ask my parents. I read that around a quarter of the population has some visible difference. It only looked extreme on me when under the influence of ecstasy or mushrooms causing pupil dialation. Still, it's worth considering.

I do wonder about mercury and lead and other chemical exposure. Of course we all have chemical exposure, but we may dispel the chemicals/metals at different rates, etc.

Is there a way to check for high dopamine levels?

(And I've always wondered what makes HPPD tick, but perhaps that's best left for another thread of discussion).

I play the guitar. Too much food too close to bed usually has a negative impact on my sleep quality, but I've tried not eating hours beforehand, and it hasn't been a guarantee.

I play the guitar.

I'm a bit afraid of meditating, it's this fear which isn't always rational, of losing control in an altered state - that mushroom trip wasn't pleasant, and I couldn't just "go with the flow". Maybe I should still try it.

It's hard to find a doctor you can talk to about all these things. The last one I saw was very patient and the appointment lasted an hour and a half, but in the end he basically told me that I could expect years of strange sensations and symptoms before the effects of using the rec. drugs that I did resolve, which didn't give me much clue as to what I can do now.

I understand that supplements have effects, too. I'm a bit wary of prescription drugs, always have been - actually, one of my friends (through drug abuse worse than mine) developed a diagnosis of depression, psychosis, and schizophrenia, was put on a number of pres. drugs, became addicted to benzos, burned the flesh on his hands when his girlfriend went on a trip for a month, gained fourty pounds and seemed all around miserable. I think this further colored my judgement.

Are there any methods/tests to check for brain damage/impairment/alteration other than MRIs or such scans? I don't fancy sticking my head in a machine that emits vast quantities of electromagnetic radiation.

I admit that my sleep schedule has been more like "late to bed, late to rise" - except when I was working on farms, and got up very early. I try to exercise daily.

Anyway, thanks again for all your thoughts, and if you have any more, I'm listening!

[nameless]

You can get a brain MRI instead of a CT scan -- no radiation. I had to get my pituitary checked once by MRI -- the test is noisy and boring, but it's no big deal. But I'm not sure how useful it'd be for you. It can't show chemical imbalances, etc., just physical problems with the brain. Discuss it with a doctor and see what he says.

[yoyo]

well there are a few ways to improve slow wave sleep. Some are illegal (GHB agonists like, well, GHB). some you've tried, gabapentin. The other one is 5ht2 antagonists. The best one for lseep in my opinion is cyproheptadine; it has a pretty short half life so it doesn't affect you the next morning. its also an antihistamine, so that helps with sleep a bit as well.

[brain]

drinking alcohol inhibits REM sleep. try drinking one or two glasses of wine before sleep, if that isn't a problem for you. i also have the same sleeping problems that you do, and when i do this it helps me. i also find that its best to take a couple of days off each week.

[brain]

oh, also. if you oversleep, try setting an alarm and capping yourself off at eight hours, then making yourself get up. having the alarm on the other side of the room might help (if you're like me and turn it off after a point)

[sUper GeNius]

MAOIs, tricyclic antidepressants and SSRIs all strongly reduce REM sleep.

[R.ticle One]

MAOIs, tricyclic antidepressants and SSRIs all strongly reduce REM sleep.

Does their REM inhibiting effect result in a gain of "deep" sleep, or just a poor quality sleep without so much dreaming? Because of my current mental issues I am averse to SSRIs or anything that too directly affects serotonin, and despite my depressive phases, I think that the last thing I need would be a pharmaceutical antidepressant.

I once tried a formula called "Deep Sleep" - it had 5-HTP in it (among many things), and the had one of the worst, most tripped out sleeps of my life. Now, I can't necessarily blame the 5-HTP. It could have been something else in it, or a synergy between it and other ingredients, but still, it was awful.

Given my HPPD, I don't think I'd want to touch an MAOI (used by some people in increase the effects of hallucinogens), and I don't know how I'd react to it, regardless of not using hallucinogens for at least five years.

Also, I have started Kava (at extremely low doses, 300 mg of organic root powder), and I believe that mixing Kava with MAOIs is a no-no. Too many other potentially bad food combinations, too, with an MAOI.

Not to blow off your ideas! I thank anyone who contributes their thoughts, I appreciate the help for this situation. I just think that in my case, the particulars you named would be inappropriate.

Regarding alcohol - I used to drink - never heavily, but enough, given my tolerance level, to be judged by effect, as recreational. These days I barely even have a small glass of wine now and again. I can enjoy a bit of drink, but because of years of damaging my gut with gluten from all that lovely beer and rye bread (and the cheese to which I now know I'm sensitive to, in addition to the gluten), and the accompanying dysbiosis issues, alcohol makes me feel more like cacka than not - you know, all..."yeasty" - itchy, headachy, rashy, sensitive - from amounts that other people would often consider minimal.

Come to think of it (not that I haven't thought of it before!), I need to get working on my overall guts. Once alcohol stops making me feel so awful, I might try it to see if it helps with sleep in moderate quantities, though it wouldn't be my first choice.

On the topic of avoiding sleeping in, I have been trying to get myself to get out out of bed earlier. I can do it if I really make myself, but it can be challenging.

Well guys, keep 'em comin' if you've got 'em. In the meantime, I guess that one of the best things I can do is try gentle sedatives and get myself as healthy as I can otherwise!

Cheers,

R.ticle One

[ExRaver]

MAOIs, tricyclic antidepressants and SSRIs all strongly reduce REM sleep.

Does their REM inhibiting effect result in a gain of "deep" sleep, or just a poor quality sleep without so much dreaming? Because of my current mental issues I am averse to SSRIs or anything that too directly affects serotonin, and despite my depressive phases, I think that the last thing I need would be a pharmaceutical antidepressant.

I once tried a formula called "Deep Sleep" - it had 5-HTP in it (among many things), and the had one of the worst, most tripped out sleeps of my life. Now, I can't necessarily blame the 5-HTP. It could have been something else in it, or a synergy between it and other ingredients, but still, it was awful.

Given my HPPD, I don't think I'd want to touch an MAOI (used by some people in increase the effects of hallucinogens), and I don't know how I'd react to it, regardless of not using hallucinogens for at least five years.

Also, I have started Kava (at extremely low doses, 300 mg of organic root powder), and I believe that mixing Kava with MAOIs is a no-no. Too many other potentially bad food combinations, too, with an MAOI.

Not to blow off your ideas! I thank anyone who contributes their thoughts, I appreciate the help for this situation. I just think that in my case, the particulars you named would be inappropriate.

Regarding alcohol - I used to drink - never heavily, but enough, given my tolerance level, to be judged by effect, as recreational. These days I barely even have a small glass of wine now and again. I can enjoy a bit of drink, but because of years of damaging my gut with gluten from all that lovely beer and rye bread (and the cheese to which I now know I'm sensitive to, in addition to the gluten), and the accompanying dysbiosis issues, alcohol makes me feel more like cacka than not - you know, all..."yeasty" - itchy, headachy, rashy, sensitive - from amounts that other people would often consider minimal.

Come to think of it (not that I haven't thought of it before!), I need to get working on my overall guts. Once alcohol stops making me feel so awful, I might try it to see if it helps with sleep in moderate quantities, though it wouldn't be my first choice.

On the topic of avoiding sleeping in, I have been trying to get myself to get out out of bed earlier. I can do it if I really make myself, but it can be challenging.

Well guys, keep 'em comin' if you've got 'em. In the meantime, I guess that one of the best things I can do is try gentle sedatives and get myself as healthy as I can otherwise!

Cheers,

R.ticle One

Hello Mate,

When I was looking through your post I was shocked because it was like I was reading my very own exact same situation. I to(like yourself) am a veteran of many raves in my late teens early 20's and I'm not proud when I say this but when I was at a rave I was drugged up of my face on various different substances. Exctacy was my main drug of choice also combined with Speed, Skunk cannabis, Cocaine and Alchohol. I used to love happpy hardcore raves and attended them religiously!!.I also experiance tinnitus, IMO from the bone shuddering bass generated from the 10ft high stacked speaker systems at the raves I attended. Infact I always made a b-line for the speakers to really intenify my rush from the drugs I used to be pumped up on. I'm now 31 yrs old and I find my self in the same boat as yourself my friend. I cant sleep at night, when I do sleep I awaken every 1-1/2 hours tossing and turning and experiencing very vivid, sometimes often scary fu**ed up dreams. In the last few months ive lost my job through the severe fatigue during the day always feeling zonked out and not with it. I then split with my girlfriend who stood by me for 7 years, the love of my life and my job both in tatters, I was heartbroken. The suicidal thoughts quickly started to eat away at me until I finally snapped and lost the will to live. I'm now recovering from a Xanax overdose(ordered from online pharmacy). A weeks back. I rang my mum and said my good byes and munched 10 xanax tabs with a swig of Vodka, I told my mum on the phone im gonna take another 10 xanax in 30mins. I then went on to tell her if that didnt kill me, i'd finish myself off with the Vodka. Quick witted she immediatly called the police and ambulance service to my flat(who arrived in mins) and was transfered by ambulance to my local hospital where I made a full recovery thank God. I have a pysciatrist appt next week and also have an appointment with a neurologist for an MRI and a sleep study. Dont get me wrong im not looking for sympathy but the sleep problem drove me to end my life because i felt totally disabled from it. I tried Neurontin and I found it to be excellent but tolerance quickly built up and then eventually gave up working same with Valium, Xanax and Rivotril. I then was using a trycyclic anti Dep called Doxepin. This caused me to gain about 4 stone in a few months making me feel like shit even more. Although I cannot offer you a concrete solution to your sleep problem, I will certainly update you next week and every week with my progress and what kind of med regime i may be subjected to. If you want to chat about anything or contact me please feel free email me at laurence_b@btinternet.com . Oh and I have inveted a name for my own and possibly your symptoms. PTRS quite simply- Post Traumatic Rave Syndrome. Take care friend and best of luck to you in the future.

Edited by ExRaver, 14 February 2009 - 08:10 PM.