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Resveratrol and copper / zinc chelation - Seeking advice


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#1 Fredas

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 01:06 AM


After having been taking a more pure (98%) form of resveratrol for a few weeks now, I could not help but notice that I am starting to enjoy a tendonitis-like side effect. I read about it here and there before I experienced anything personally. Now, weighing what resveratrol offers against its apparent after-effect, I've decided not to cease taking the supplement for the time being. So, barring that option, I'm seeking a solution.

What leaps to mind is to try counter-supplementing copper, or zinc, or whatever is in fact being affected. And here is where my lack of expertise comes in. Would supplementing zinc / copper fix the problem, or at least probably help? Which one? How much? At the same time I take resveratrol? Or eight hours after? Eight hours before?

If it matters, I take a multivitamin once per day, and it claims to provide 73% RDV of zinc and 45% RDV of copper. Sometimes I take it with the resveratrol, and sometimes I take it 12 hours separated. (Mainly because it's difficult to juggle resveratrol, astral fruit, and all the supplements which apparently negate the efficacy of those two.)

Anyway, that's where I'm at now. Any help appreciated!

#2 maxwatt

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 01:42 AM

After having been taking a more pure (98%) form of resveratrol for a few weeks now, I could not help but notice that I am starting to enjoy a tendonitis-like side effect. I read about it here and there before I experienced anything personally. Now, weighing what resveratrol offers against its apparent after-effect, I've decided not to cease taking the supplement for the time being. So, barring that option, I'm seeking a solution.

What leaps to mind is to try counter-supplementing copper, or zinc, or whatever is in fact being affected. And here is where my lack of expertise comes in. Would supplementing zinc / copper fix the problem, or at least probably help? Which one? How much? At the same time I take resveratrol? Or eight hours after? Eight hours before?

If it matters, I take a multivitamin once per day, and it claims to provide 73% RDV of zinc and 45% RDV of copper. Sometimes I take it with the resveratrol, and sometimes I take it 12 hours separated. (Mainly because it's difficult to juggle resveratrol, astral fruit, and all the supplements which apparently negate the efficacy of those two.)

Anyway, that's where I'm at now. Any help appreciated!


We don't really have a definitive explanation for the tendon pain some people report when taking resveratrol. We do know that the amount of chelation induced by resveratrol is negligible, and this has been discounted as a possible cause of tendinitis-like symptoms. The effect on copper that was seen in vitro was in cell cultures exposed to resveratrol concentrations orders of magnitude greater than can be attained in the body from oral administration of resveratrol. Not a credible cause.

Another theory is that such symptoms are due to resveratrol's anti-angiogenesis effect. which is good for suppressing tumors, but doesn't allow tendons and muscles a chance to heal because it suppresses the growth of blood vessels that would induce healing. This is only speculation, but whatever the cause, you could try taking a two day break from resveratrol periodically, say once a week. That could allow sufficient healing to occur, or possibly to alleviate the pain from whatever the cause.

Another possibility: geddarkstorm posted a wonderfully clever and credible theory which implies resveratrol works in part by increasing the NAD+/NADH ratio. Perhaps you are not getting sufficient niacin or niacinamide as a precursor to manufacture NAD+, and the tendon pain is the result. Geddarkstory recommended taking niacinamide, I think 250 mg would be plenty, but three hours after taking resverarol. This is enought of a delay it wouldn't block resveratrol's effects on sirtuin genes, but would provide a source for NAD+.

I hope you can report back to us what works or not if you try these suggestions. We could use more data.

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#3 geddarkstorm

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 01:46 AM

After having been taking a more pure (98%) form of resveratrol for a few weeks now, I could not help but notice that I am starting to enjoy a tendonitis-like side effect. I read about it here and there before I experienced anything personally. Now, weighing what resveratrol offers against its apparent after-effect, I've decided not to cease taking the supplement for the time being. So, barring that option, I'm seeking a solution.

What leaps to mind is to try counter-supplementing copper, or zinc, or whatever is in fact being affected. And here is where my lack of expertise comes in. Would supplementing zinc / copper fix the problem, or at least probably help? Which one? How much? At the same time I take resveratrol? Or eight hours after? Eight hours before?

If it matters, I take a multivitamin once per day, and it claims to provide 73% RDV of zinc and 45% RDV of copper. Sometimes I take it with the resveratrol, and sometimes I take it 12 hours separated. (Mainly because it's difficult to juggle resveratrol, astral fruit, and all the supplements which apparently negate the efficacy of those two.)

Anyway, that's where I'm at now. Any help appreciated!


There is only one paper out there I can find that suggests resveratrol chelates copper [here]. Every other reference is just citing that one. I don't have access to it, but it sounds like it only inferred chelation due to resveratrol protection of lipoproteins from copper mediated oxidation. At any rate, even if resveratrol chelated copper, the moment it was metabolized, which is primarily done on the 3' hydroxyl, it would lose its ability and copper would be released. That is, resveratrol cannot remove copper from the body, or even prevent absorption of it in the gut, since only 1% of ingested resveratrol remains unmodified on the 3' hydroxyl. Only if a study looking at this matter directly said otherwise, or overwhelming anecdotal evidence of copper stopping resveratrol correlated joint pain, would I stand corrected.

One thing to remember is that zinc somewhat lowers the absorption of copper, which is why copper needs to be added along with zinc when taking zinc supplements - so if you start taking zinc supplements directly, take copper too. You are already getting more than the average person for copper and zinc through diet due to the multivitamin. Joint pain probably has another source, dealing with Nampt activation by resveratrol in the joints, which I'll eventually make a post about. I would rather advise that you lower your resveratrol dose until the pain is abolished - otherwise you can attempt to take more copper and see if that works, but there's never been a report of it doing so; doesn't mean it's impossible though. Timing likely does not matter, but resveratrol is gone from the system in only a few hours if not taken with quercetin, so you could take copper three hours later and see if anything happens.

#4 Fredas

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 03:17 AM

This is only speculation, but whatever the cause, you could try taking a two day break from resveratrol periodically, say once a week. That could allow sufficient healing to occur, or possibly to alleviate the pain from whatever the cause.

I read this suggestion in another thread. My misgiving is that I'm not sold on the idea that the relevant gene would probably remain "on" during such breaks. I can't say I've read anything conclusive one way or the other, except for the following: 1) Resveratrol is notoriously non-bioavailable, and 2) people do seem to agree that if a person stops taking it, its benefit vanishes. Nothing particularly concrete on the "when," but if it were as simple as taking one dose every two or three days, that would probably sit well with the wallets of a lot of people. (However, if the pain starts to spiral out of control, I obviously won't have much choice.)

Geddarkstory recommended taking niacinamide, I think 250 mg would be plenty, but three hours after taking resverarol. This is enought of a delay it wouldn't block resveratrol's effects on sirtuin genes, but would provide a source for NAD+.

Ah, here we go. Per your recommendation, I've placed and order for said supplement. I ought to be able to report something in a matter of weeks. Although I'll admit that if the pain goes away of its own accord, prior to the arrival of the niacinamide, I'll be perplexed but not unhappy about it.

#5 nowayout

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Posted 31 January 2009 - 05:26 AM

After having been taking a more pure (98%) form of resveratrol for a few weeks now, I could not help but notice that I am starting to enjoy a tendonitis-like side effect. I read about it here and there before I experienced anything personally. Now, weighing what resveratrol offers against its apparent after-effect, I've decided not to cease taking the supplement for the time being. So, barring that option, I'm seeking a solution.


Be very careful. I did what you are doing and continued resveratrol use for a few weeks after the pain started. It became chronic and I am still struggling with it six months after stopping resveratrol. In this time I lost twenty pounds of muscle mass due to pain and inability to exercise properly. I would give anything just to be back to my old self again. Please don't make the same mistake.
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#6 Logic

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Posted 12 January 2016 - 11:15 PM

The Leishmania parasite is (contracted from sandfly bites) is sometimes mentioned in relation to tendon issues and assimilates NAD+ precursors (nicotinamide, nicotinic acid, nicotinamide riboside) from its host:

 

http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=724741

 

NAD+ auxotrophs & Epigenetic manipulation by pathogens.

http://www.longecity...n-by-pathogens/






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