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Osteoarthritis In the Knees


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#1 suspire

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 01:55 AM


Hey folks,

I could use some help and suggestions for my aunt, who has osteoarthritis in her knees. She's been taking calcium (not sure if this is actually something to take for it) and glucosamine to no avail. She's in her mid 50s and exercises often and is in excellent shape, except for her knees.

What do folks recommend: Vitamin D3 is obviously on the table as is Pycnogenol. What else would people recommend for it? I've heard conflicting reports about resveratrol's effectiveness.

Thanks in advance.

#2 rwac

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 02:51 AM

Hey folks,

I could use some help and suggestions for my aunt, who has osteoarthritis in her knees. She's been taking calcium (not sure if this is actually something to take for it) and glucosamine to no avail. She's in her mid 50s and exercises often and is in excellent shape, except for her knees.

What do folks recommend: Vitamin D3 is obviously on the table as is Pycnogenol. What else would people recommend for it? I've heard conflicting reports about resveratrol's effectiveness.

Thanks in advance.


You could add some Vitamin K2. Should help with blood flow too.
I personally use the 10 mg of the MK-4 form.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16572460

Low vitamin K status is associated with osteoarthritis in the hand and knee.
Neogi T, Booth SL, Zhang YQ, Jacques PF, Terkeltaub R, Aliabadi P, Felson DT. Boston University School of Medicine, and Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02118, USA. tneogi@bu.edu

OBJECTIVE: Poor intake of vitamin K is common. Insufficient vitamin K can result in abnormal cartilage and bone mineralization. Furthermore, osteophyte growth, seen in osteoarthritis (OA), may be a vitamin K-dependent process.


Edited by rwac, 01 February 2009 - 02:53 AM.


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#3 suspire

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 03:13 AM

Hey folks,

I could use some help and suggestions for my aunt, who has osteoarthritis in her knees. She's been taking calcium (not sure if this is actually something to take for it) and glucosamine to no avail. She's in her mid 50s and exercises often and is in excellent shape, except for her knees.

What do folks recommend: Vitamin D3 is obviously on the table as is Pycnogenol. What else would people recommend for it? I've heard conflicting reports about resveratrol's effectiveness.

Thanks in advance.


You could add some Vitamin K2. Should help with blood flow too.
I personally use the 10 mg of the MK-4 form.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16572460

Low vitamin K status is associated with osteoarthritis in the hand and knee.
Neogi T, Booth SL, Zhang YQ, Jacques PF, Terkeltaub R, Aliabadi P, Felson DT. Boston University School of Medicine, and Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02118, USA. tneogi@bu.edu

OBJECTIVE: Poor intake of vitamin K is common. Insufficient vitamin K can result in abnormal cartilage and bone mineralization. Furthermore, osteophyte growth, seen in osteoarthritis (OA), may be a vitamin K-dependent process.


Thanks rwac. Why do you take 10 mg of MK-4? It seems like a lot. Any references that suggest that specific amount? And it also seems expensive. Which MK-4 product do you take?

#4 rwac

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 03:41 AM

Hey folks,

I could use some help and suggestions for my aunt, who has osteoarthritis in her knees. She's been taking calcium (not sure if this is actually something to take for it) and glucosamine to no avail. She's in her mid 50s and exercises often and is in excellent shape, except for her knees.

What do folks recommend: Vitamin D3 is obviously on the table as is Pycnogenol. What else would people recommend for it? I've heard conflicting reports about resveratrol's effectiveness.

Thanks in advance.


You could add some Vitamin K2. Should help with blood flow too.
I personally use the 10 mg of the MK-4 form.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16572460

Low vitamin K status is associated with osteoarthritis in the hand and knee.
Neogi T, Booth SL, Zhang YQ, Jacques PF, Terkeltaub R, Aliabadi P, Felson DT. Boston University School of Medicine, and Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02118, USA. tneogi@bu.edu

OBJECTIVE: Poor intake of vitamin K is common. Insufficient vitamin K can result in abnormal cartilage and bone mineralization. Furthermore, osteophyte growth, seen in osteoarthritis (OA), may be a vitamin K-dependent process.


Thanks rwac. Why do you take 10 mg of MK-4? It seems like a lot. Any references that suggest that specific amount? And it also seems expensive. Which MK-4 product do you take?


There's a couple of reasons why I'm taking MK-4.
My blood clotting is slow.
Blood circulation could be better.

I got a niacin flush type feeling the first time I took K2, so I'm probably pretty deficient.
So I decided to double it from 5 mg to 10 mg.

There's a study in which they gave 45 mg of MK-4, and that reduced atherosclerotic plaque.
I'll post it later.

I use Carlson Labs K2 Menatetrenone. Not that expensive.
http://www.iherb.com...x?pid=6116&at=0

#5 Lufega

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 04:13 AM

Try MSM and Curcumin

#6 nameless

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 04:40 AM

Anti-inflammatory supplements might be helpful. Consider a dose of Omega 3s: fish oil or krill. Here is a low dose krill study that showed some benefits for arthritis:

http://www.jacn.org/...bstract/26/1/39


Chondrotin may help too:

http://www.scienceda...90129131835.htm

Edited by nameless, 01 February 2009 - 05:30 AM.


#7 suspire

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 06:09 AM

Anti-inflammatory supplements might be helpful. Consider a dose of Omega 3s: fish oil or krill. Here is a low dose krill study that showed some benefits for arthritis:

http://www.jacn.org/...bstract/26/1/39


Chondrotin may help too:

http://www.scienceda...90129131835.htm


Thanks. I was thinking about Krill Oil. Do you think it'd be more effective than fish oil in this situation?

Try MSM and Curcumin


Yeah, I was thinking about MSM. Has Curcumin shown any effect for osteoarthritis?

Hey folks,

I could use some help and suggestions for my aunt, who has osteoarthritis in her knees. She's been taking calcium (not sure if this is actually something to take for it) and glucosamine to no avail. She's in her mid 50s and exercises often and is in excellent shape, except for her knees.

What do folks recommend: Vitamin D3 is obviously on the table as is Pycnogenol. What else would people recommend for it? I've heard conflicting reports about resveratrol's effectiveness.

Thanks in advance.


You could add some Vitamin K2. Should help with blood flow too.
I personally use the 10 mg of the MK-4 form.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16572460

Low vitamin K status is associated with osteoarthritis in the hand and knee.
Neogi T, Booth SL, Zhang YQ, Jacques PF, Terkeltaub R, Aliabadi P, Felson DT. Boston University School of Medicine, and Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02118, USA. tneogi@bu.edu

OBJECTIVE: Poor intake of vitamin K is common. Insufficient vitamin K can result in abnormal cartilage and bone mineralization. Furthermore, osteophyte growth, seen in osteoarthritis (OA), may be a vitamin K-dependent process.


Thanks rwac. Why do you take 10 mg of MK-4? It seems like a lot. Any references that suggest that specific amount? And it also seems expensive. Which MK-4 product do you take?


There's a couple of reasons why I'm taking MK-4.
My blood clotting is slow.
Blood circulation could be better.

I got a niacin flush type feeling the first time I took K2, so I'm probably pretty deficient.
So I decided to double it from 5 mg to 10 mg.

There's a study in which they gave 45 mg of MK-4, and that reduced atherosclerotic plaque.
I'll post it later.

I use Carlson Labs K2 Menatetrenone. Not that expensive.
http://www.iherb.com...x?pid=6116&at=0


Ah. Thanks. That's helpful. And I hadn't seen the Carlson Labs product--I was just going off what LEF charges for its K2 supplement. Thanks.

#8 suspire

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 06:17 AM

Also, would people say Curcumin is a better choice than Pycnogenol in this situation? My aunt is not prone to taking supplements, so I am trying to narrow down the top choices. Right now, I am going with Vitamin D3, clearly, but I am trying to figure out another 2 to 3 supplements to give her. I am thinking maybe Krill Oil, Vitamin K-4 and Pycnogenol, but I am not entirely sure.

#9 nameless

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 06:26 AM

I'm not sure if krill oil would be of greater benefit than fish oil for arthritis problems. If I had to guess, I'd say no, due to low omega-3 content in krill.

But krill does have the benefit of not causing fishy burps and it has some things fish oil doesn't (namely a Phospholipid structure and a little Astaxanthin). And Costco happens to sell 300mg krill, in a non-smelly capsule (some krill smells like... well... what you expect krill to smell like). Your aunt could always take both too. My mom started on 300mg krill + fish oil recently, and said her arthritis feels a little better.

As for K2, I'm not sure if high dose MK-4 is better than low dose MK-4 + MK-7, but you can do the research on that one. Just make sure she isn't taking warfarin or anything like that.

#10 balance

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 01:34 PM

I would recommend taking the following:

LEF super-bio curcumin (supposedly greatly increased absorption)
vitamin K2 as MK-7 100mcg if you are worried about the high dose and/or high price of K2 MK-4. If sticking to MK-4, I'd go for 45MG.
They have used that for the bone loss studies in japanese women, and what works for bones can often work for joints etc too.

High dose fish oil as much standardized as possible to ensure least amount of softgels
Resveratrol 250mg is a good anti-inflammatory, I'd use that over pycnogenol.
This product might help her: http://www.lef.org/V...nt-Formula.html

Vitamin C to bowel tolerance, take sodium ascorbate or calcium ascorbate.
Copper 2mg as gluconate with a meal
Vitamin D3 as already mentioned.
Boron 3-12mg


The usual bone nutrients:

MSM, strontium, calcium, magnesium, silica, manganese, folic acid + B12, zinc.

#11 suspire

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 06:06 PM

Hmm. Some good choices here. Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Any other ideas or thoughts on this would be appreciated. I am, however, wary of having her take things that either have no studies behind them for osteoarthritis (resveratrol, curcumin, etc), have potential side effects (MSM), or have conflicting data/studies on its effectiveness for osteoarthritis (Vitamin C). Still trying to come up with some top 5 choices that have solid studies, especially on the long term, behind them.

By the way, nameless, while I've seen the Krill Oil studies for osteoarthritis, I haven't seen any for Fish Oil.

#12 tomnook

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 06:23 PM

Hmm. Some good choices here. Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Any other ideas or thoughts on this would be appreciated. I am, however, wary of having her take things that either have no studies behind them for osteoarthritis (resveratrol, curcumin, etc), have potential side effects (MSM), or have conflicting data/studies on its effectiveness for osteoarthritis (Vitamin C). Still trying to come up with some top 5 choices that have solid studies, especially on the long term, behind them.

By the way, nameless, while I've seen the Krill Oil studies for osteoarthritis, I haven't seen any for Fish Oil.


I suggest trying Boswellia or, rather, 5-Loxin - it seems to have helped my arthritic dog as it appears to have done others as mentioned here . You can buy it as an almost tasteless powder - I get mine here - 200 doses for less than $15. There are many studies on Pubmed regarding this application particularly for osteoarthritis of the knee joint wikipedia .

Its got to be worth trying! :~

#13 amere

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 08:09 PM

The combination of MSM, curcumin and D3 did wonders for my mother's arthritis. Given nothing else she went from barely being able to walk up a flight of stairs to taking up hiking. Seriously! If you added K2 and fish oil, I wouldn't think there's a better combo for joints out there.

I haven't heard of any side effects from MSM and Curcumin's effectiveness specifically in arthritis is well-documented. Where did you hear otherwise?

#14 suspire

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 08:18 PM

I haven't heard of any side effects from MSM and Curcumin's effectiveness specifically in arthritis is well-documented. Where did you hear otherwise?


I didn't hear about side effects, per se, but rather the only test conducted on it, as far as I know, was short term and therefore the implications of long term usage is unknown. And when advising supplements to other people, I tend to err on the side of caution. That said, it does sound like MSM has worked well for some and I will probably tell her about it and let her decide for her own in that case.

#15 bobman

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 06:05 AM

Hmm. Some good choices here. Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Any other ideas or thoughts on this would be appreciated. I am, however, wary of having her take things that either have no studies behind them for osteoarthritis (resveratrol, curcumin, etc), have potential side effects (MSM), or have conflicting data/studies on its effectiveness for osteoarthritis (Vitamin C). Still trying to come up with some top 5 choices that have solid studies, especially on the long term, behind them.

By the way, nameless, while I've seen the Krill Oil studies for osteoarthritis, I haven't seen any for Fish Oil.


Ingesting any substance exposes one to potential side effects, and conflicting data regarding interactions with complex biological systems is present for every substance. A recent chuckle, Fosamax, which is used to treat osteoporosis, has been found to cause fractures after prolonged use. The point is if you want an absolutely sure thing joint an ashram (and then don't forget to clear your mind of emotion and expectation, since psychological state affects cellular function).

I'm bumping this because I wanted to hear some updated reports on curcumin or resveratrol for joint pain. I've seen some worrying anecdotal reports of resveratrol causing joint damage, so I'm interested in hearing what's up with the TNFa/IL-1/etc inhibitors increasing anabolism in damaged tissue, because that would clearly indicate utility. Curcumin has pretty sweet effects on wound healing, and I've been using it to great effect, although with a sample size of one who knows. Animal data shows it to increase wound contraction rate & hydroxyproline, dna, collagen, and active cell content, but are there potential downsides? For instance, a single study showed impaired retinal healing due to curcumin exposure.

Stealth edit: http://www.fasebj.or...0/1798.full.pdf

Resveratrol is bad juju for wound healing, looks about as healthy as taking high dose ibuprofen after cartilaginous surgery. My shoulders ache just thinking about it. If we take this as the final word on resveratrol effect on wound healing it isn't at all surprising that active people have been developing long-lasting joint problems on high doses of trans-resveratrol. Man...

It is interesting that curcumin has the polar opposite effect, despite inhibiting angiogenesis in general.

Edited by deletethisaccount, 30 November 2010 - 06:48 AM.


#16 ajnast4r

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 07:04 AM

i would not recommend taking any oral anti-inflammatories if you're healthy. topical would be better http://www.voltarengel.com/

#17 maxwatt

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:35 PM

Glucosamine does not work, and has been shown to destroy pancreatic islet cells. It raises ones blood sugar by a different mechanism than glucose does, and there is anecdotal evidence the effect is permanent. Chondroitin adds nothing but the benefits of placebo effect. Long term cchronic NSAID use can cause joint deterioration, but for acute episodes of pain can be very effective if stomach bleeding and upset are not a problem.

Resveratrol can cause joint pain, but I've never seen evidence of actual joint damage. Resveratrol is a mild anti-aromatase inhibitor, like Tamoxifen. Vitamin D is often prescribed for joint pain that is concomitant with use of Tamoxifen. Personal experience, and that of others, shows the joint pain of resveratrol resolves with adequate vitamin D status, once one gets one's 25-D-hydroxy level above 30. I take Resveratrol because it is the most effective thing I've tried for osteoarthritis. It inhibits nf-Kappa beta, which is the main inflammatory agent in OA, and reduces swelling and pain. My symptoms including trigger-finger and hallux rigidus (frozen painful big toe) have greatly ameliorated or disappeared. Symptoms recur if I cease resveratrol use at around 400 mg daily. NSAIDs eased the pain some, reduced the swelling a little, but did not stop progression, much less reverse it. Resveratrol cured my big toe:

Vitamin D has been the supplement of the decade, but is facing a medical back-lash. Some doctors think that like Fosamax, its use will lead to fractures. See New York Times Article.

K2 as MK-4 or MK-7 is promising in the lab, as are so many things. High dietary intake of suck K2 rich foods as fermented soy (natto) or stinky cheeses correlates with decreased fracture risk and favorable bone calcium status and reduced calcium plaque in arteries. Whether K2 supplements, or which K2 supplement, might have thttp://www.imminst.org/forum/public/style_images/master/rte_icons/link.pnghis effect is unknown. Correlation does not mean causation. We tend to confound them when evaluating supplements.

I think that running cannot help but be hard on one's knees. Cycling often helps, as the repetitive fluid motion is good for the joint. Cycling will not help prevent osteoporosis. Sometimes ditching fancy running shoes anhttp://www.imminst.org/forum/public/style_images/master/rte_icons/picture.pngd using a plane flat old fashion sneaker or tennis shoe, or even running barefoot, is helpful for runners with knee problems.

Resveratrol cured my toe


Posted Image Posted Image

Edited by maxwatt, 30 November 2010 - 12:45 PM.
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#18 albedo

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 04:56 PM

Glucosamine does not work, and has been shown to destroy pancreatic islet cells. It raises ones blood sugar by a different mechanism than glucose does, and there is anecdotal evidence the effect is permanent.....

.... Resveratrol cured my big toe ...

Very interesting post, thank you
1. Can you please substantiae with studies the blood sugar increase (or is that your experience?) I might have had the same.
2. How long it took to cure you bid toe (understand you run at 400 mg/d or t-res, right?)

#19 maxwatt

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 11:24 PM

There are several papers, one below, and it is my experience as well as several who have posted here.
Big toe not exactly cured, but pain subsided beginning almost immediately, continued to improve. Swelling greatly reduced within three days. U regained the ability to bend my toe withing a week, and to do so without pain within a month or so. But some boney deformation remains. I can again get into some shoes I hadn;t been able to wear, but another pair just does not have enough room in the toe box.



Am J Med Sci. 2007 Jun;333(6):333-9.
Oral glucosamine in doses used to treat osteoarthritis worsens insulin resistance.
Pham T, Cornea A, Blick KE, Jenkins A, Scofield RH.
Source
Endocrinology Division, Department of Medicine, University of Oklahoma Health Science Center, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, USA.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Glucosamine is used to treat osteoarthritis. In animals, the compound is known to cause insulin resistance, the underlying abnormality in type 2 diabetes mellitus. Insulin resistance in humans taking oral glucosamine in doses used for osteoarthritis has not been studied.
METHODS:
Volunteer human subjects (n = 38) without known abnormality of glucose homeostasis had fasting serum glucose, insulin, and lipids determined before and after taking 1500 mg glucosamine by mouth every day for 6 weeks. Fasting insulin and glucose were used to calculate homeostasis model assessment (HOMA-IR) and quantitative insulin sensitivity check index (QUICKI). Vascular elasticity was measured by pulse wave analysis. The paired Student's t test was used to compare baseline with posttreatment values. Pearson's correlation was used to determine the relation of baseline HOMA-IR with changes in other variables.
RESULTS:
We found a rise in HOMA-IR after 6 weeks of glucosamine (2.8 versus 3.2, P < 0.04). The fall in HOMA-IR among the subjects was statistically related to a higher baseline HOMA-IR by Pearson's correlation(P < 0.01). A rise in serum triglycerides and a rise in LDL cholesterol were statistically related to baseline HOMA-IR. Small artery elasticity fell, and the decrease was higher in those with the highest baseline HOMA-IR.
CONCLUSIONS:
Notwithstanding its efficacy remaining in question, glucosamine is widely used as treatment for osteoarthritis, which is a condition associated with both obesity and type 2 diabetes mellitus. Our data indicate that persons with underlying poorer insulin sensitivity are at risk for worsening insulin resistance and vascular function with the use of glucosamine in doses used to treat osteoarthritis.
PMID: 17570985

→ source (external link)

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#20 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 04:42 AM

My mom has had arthritic symptoms and I gave her CIssus Quadrangularis, which seems to have really helped.
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#21 albedo

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 09:40 AM

Thank for your replies

#22 kismet

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:25 AM

possible glucosamine toxicity has been recently substantiated:

http://www.imminst.o...ncreatic-cells/

---

Osteoarthritis Cartilage. 2011 Apr;19(4):375-80. Epub 2011 Jan 18.
The effect of glucosamine on glucose metabolism in humans: a systematic review of the literature.
Dostrovsky NR, Towheed TE, Hudson RW, Anastassiades TP.

Eleven studies were included. Six studies were randomized controlled trials and the remaining five were prospective studies with or without controls. Four of the studies found decreased insulin sensitivity or increased fasting glucose in subjects taking glucosamine. Three of these were clinical studies using oral glucosamine. Studies that included subjects with baseline impaired glucose tolerance or insulin resistance were more likely to detect an effect on glucose metabolism than studies without such subjects.
CONCLUSION:

Clinical studies, including three using oral glucosamine, have provided mixed evidence about the effect of exogenous glucosamine on glucose metabolism in humans. Therefore, more studies are needed, particularly including subjects at high risk for impairments in glucose homeostasis, before a definite conclusion can be made.
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#23 maxwatt

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 01:25 PM

My fasting glucose rose when I used glucosamine, and it was not very effective anyway, so I stopped.

I found serendipitously that +/-400 mg dose of resveratrol provided very effective relief for fingers, toes and back. I did not have knee problem so cannot speak to that. Mechanism seems to be inhibition of NF-kappaB. Other things also inhibit (luteolin, curcumin and others) though resveratrol is the only one of these I can attest to from personal experience.

With knees, there is likely to be structural damage so even reducing the inflammation, while providing pain relief, may not return full function. Good luck.

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#24 zorba990

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 08:15 PM

Qi Gong Machine: http://www.elixa.com/QiGong/Qigong.htm best thing I have ever used for my joints. Not exactly a supplement, but certainly in the area of alternative treatments. Would like to see more research on this kind of stuff around here...
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