237 replies to this topic

[meursault]

Should reason be illegal after 18? Seems to have some pretty ugly totalitarian tendencies...

[The Immortalist]

Yes we should pass laws to prevent parents from forcing their children to participate in religious services and be exposed involuntarily to religious doctrines.

People tend to believe throughout there life what they are raised to believe in early childhood. Children don't have a choice in the matter. These laws would protect children.

[valkyrie_ice]

Personally I agree that we need to do something, as I am all too aware of the brainwashing techniques used by ALL religions to indoctrinate children.

Exactly what is the question.

A primary problem is that our current education system is not designed to teach critical thinking or socializing skills, it is designed to crank out endless worker drones who have been conditioned to unquestioning obedience to the authority for working in a factory. Considering it was organized this way at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, the reasons for this "educational model" should be readily apparent.

The flaw in this system is that since it was created, the average "education" needed to be given has increased exponentially, particularly following the Apollo Program and it's "Crash course" science education program that has resulted in a conundrum. Modern students are still taught "rote memorization" as a primary model, and then disrupted in this "drone programming" by science courses that begin to teach the merest basics of critical thinking skills. This is mitigated somewhat by limiting such "training in how to think critically" to the later school years, after many years of rote programming has become embedded and become habit.

To truly end this model, as well as destroy the religious programming model, we will probably have to structure an entirely new educational model that begins in early childhood to teach critical thinking skills, as well as socialization skills, enabling new generations to be able to find the flaws and fallacies in religious ideology themselves AT THE TIME OF ATTEMPTED INDOCTRINATION.

I'm a rare example of someone who developed critical thinking skills early, as my preferred reading material was scientific in nature, and even though I went round and round with religious indoctrination, by the time I reached 18 I was all too aware of precisely how illogical the religious doctrine I was expected to believe was. In my case, I was "over exposed" to the material, and had already begun to realize in my early teens that I not only knew more about the bible and dogma than my parents did, but that I was far more aware of the contradictions between them.

And I am all too aware of the possibility that this upbringing could have left scars, as I have often be accused of being "an anti-religious zealot" as well as the possibility that my being a "Succubus" is an unconscious manifestation of my rejection of the "Christian ideology". However, I find that more often, my vitriol towards "the faithful" is usually due to their defending articles of their "faith" which are entirely populist DOGMA, based on the word of the early church fathers, AND NOT THE BIBLE despite numerous claims to the contrary. It can be entirely frustrating dealing with someone making such idiotic statements such as "God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the sin of homosexuality" when I know for a fact that in Isaiah, JHVH specifically states that the crime of Sodom and Gomorrah was INHOSPITALITY AND SELFISHNESS. When you have to teach someone about their own religion, it can be a real hair puller.

The same goes for dealing with such idiocy as "Women are supposed to be subservient to men" which is a Pauline doctrine, and not part of the teachings of christ, or even worse, the various moralistic condemnations of various forms of sexuality based on laws which the bible specifically states "are part of the old covenant that has been abandoned, in favor of the new covenent which is Christ's teachings."

But try and tell that to a typical "true believer". The ignorance of the typical "Christian" about their own religion is unbelievable.

Thus, the crux of the problem is primarily educational. Teach critical thinking skills that enable them to think rationally and logically, as well as ensure that they have the most crucial of all thinking skills, that of being able to analyze an ideological meme complex and dissecting and examining it as individual concepts as opposed to simply accepting the complex as a single lump in which all parts are inseparable. With this, it will be unnecessary to try and pass an unworkable "ban" , because prohibition does not work.

To anyone who discusses religion, I recommend three book as essential reading.

Misquoting Jesus This is a book on Textual Criticism, dissecting the bible to discover the massive evidence of changes that have been made over the centuries.
http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Aint Nobody's Business If You Do This is a book on consensual crimes, delving in great detail into the bible's actual stance on gambling, prostitution, sex, immorality etc.
http://mcwilliams.com/books/aint/

God Want's You Dead A great book on the dangers of accepting ideological meme complexes as lump wholes, without critical evaluation of the lump as individual concepts.
http://www.scribd.co...-Wants-You-Dead

Edited by valkyrie_ice, 27 August 2010 - 05:20 PM.

[shadowhawk]

Should any world view be illegal for parents to teach to children under 18? Should teachers who are parents be forbidden to teach students world views to students under 18? Should all students over 18 be allowed to freely study any world view? (Free access) Who and what kind of state controls this process? Can nonreligious people brainwash?

Bible Sources
http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/
http://www.ibr-bbr.org/
http://www.amazon.co...yhuc__sim_01_01
http://www.amazon.co...yhuc__sbs_02_02
http://www.biblegateway.com/
http://www.4truth.ne....BD6D/Bible.htm
http://www.bethinking.org/

Edited by shadowhawk, 27 August 2010 - 11:30 PM.

[Connor MacLeod]

It can be entirely frustrating dealing with someone making such idiotic statements such as "God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the sin of homosexuality" when I know for a fact that in Isaiah, JHVH specifically states that the crime of Sodom and Gomorrah was INHOSPITALITY AND SELFISHNESS. When you have to teach someone about their own religion, it can be a real hair puller.

Well, there may have been other reasons, but it appears that the that fact townsmen wanted to rape two male guests of Lot who happened to be angels, was the proverbial last straw.

http://www.biblegate...19&version=NASB

On the other hand, I guess raping guests could be viewed as inhospitable or selfish behavior.

Edited by Connor MacLeod, 28 August 2010 - 12:44 AM.

[valkyrie_ice]

It can be entirely frustrating dealing with someone making such idiotic statements such as "God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for the sin of homosexuality" when I know for a fact that in Isaiah, JHVH specifically states that the crime of Sodom and Gomorrah was INHOSPITALITY AND SELFISHNESS. When you have to teach someone about their own religion, it can be a real hair puller.

Well, there may have been other reasons, but it appears that the that fact townsmen wanted to rape two male guests of Lot who happened to be angels, was the proverbial last straw.

http://www.biblegate...19&version=NASB

On the other hand, I guess raping guests could be viewed as inhospitable or selfish behavior.

Neither Rape nor homosexuality had as yet been outlawed. that's not till Leviticus. Isaiah is what JHVH claims were his reasons.

[Aetherius]

Both my parents are catholic, for the longest time i was also, despite asking the obvious questions like 'if god made the universe what made god' that generally make religious people tell you to shut up or that the bible is the answer to all. About the time i was a teenager i became agnostic because there was so much uncertainty in religion that i couldnt accept. Now that ive finally realized im an atheist my parents are saying they wont pay for my college. After vivid discussion of the matter my parents will still say to me that im not an atheist because i dont know enough about the bible, neither of them have read it, i have. They are in stereotypical denial and its sad.
But i dont believe government should regulate such a matter.

[the_colossus]

It is not only saying their personnel beliefs are wrong. It is punishing them until they comply.

This is no different then Muslim fanatics torturing people until they convert to Islam.

Edited by the_colossus, 09 September 2010 - 03:06 PM.

[shadowhawk]

Both my parents are catholic, for the longest time i was also, despite asking the obvious questions like 'if god made the universe what made god' that generally make religious people tell you to shut up or that the bible is the answer to all. About the time i was a teenager i became agnostic because there was so much uncertainty in religion that i couldnt accept. Now that ive finally realized im an atheist my parents are saying they wont pay for my college. After vivid discussion of the matter my parents will still say to me that im not an atheist because i dont know enough about the bible, neither of them have read it, i have. They are in stereotypical denial and its sad.
But i dont believe government should regulate such a matter.

I was raise an Atheist until I became a Christian and my Atheist parents disowned me. I will never forget my father saying I was becoming a religious nut and threatened to kick me out of the house. Later my parents both became Christians. So far in my life Atheists have been about as bigoted as you can get and have called me about every name in the book.

Parents have to let there children struggle with the issues of faith themselves and often they will come out different than parents. Now we have a seriously considered answer to create a new parent, the state. If that ever happens you have just started to see real oppression.

[Solarclimax]

A better question would be, What makes you people think you have what it takes to be deciding whether or not people should be religious ? Religion does not cause harm. In EXACTLY the same way that getting a tattoo does not cause harm. It's people who take advantage of people's beliefs that do the harm.
Where in any of the bibles does it say people should do harm to others for profit etc ? It doesn't.
"SHOULD WE BAN GOVERNMENT" would be a perfectly more sane (yet hard to realise by too many people) question to ask. I guess when you have your head in a book all day being "BRAINWASHED" that it gives people the "BELIEF" that they need to decide what's best for others.

[JLL]

I tend to agree... it's as if we as a collective had some kind of divine right to decide whether someone should be allowed to do X. The only correct answer is that "it's none of our business". You are not your brothers' keepers!

The attitude in these threads disgusts me.

[abolitionist]

I tend to agree... it's as if we as a collective had some kind of divine right to decide whether someone should be allowed to do X. The only correct answer is that "it's none of our business". You are not your brothers' keepers!

The attitude in these threads disgusts me.

I guess you have to believe in free-will to trust that children will not be brainwashed by their parents. It's our duty to protect children, just like we should have warning labels on unhealthy foods.

The questions is : how can we declare children unable to make decisions about driving, sex, alcohol use, or joining the military until a certain age - yet we start them off with religion from day one?

WARNING : your parents are going to brainwash you with mind-bending gibberish, the surgeon general advises the use of earplugs at the dinner table and during sunday school.

Socially inacceptable religions are already prohibited, the state will take your children if you teach them a religion that requires them to break laws.

[EmbraceUnity]

The questions is : how can we declare children unable to make decisions about driving, sex, alcohol use, or joining the military until a certain age - yet we start them off with religion from day one?

There is a pretty big difference between religion and those other things, though. People want children to be indoctrinated into a religion, but they don't want them driving or having sex or using drugs. In a democracy, that is just how it is.

Even in Scandinavia where most people are secular this likely wouldn't go over too well. As soon as any debate for it came up the idea would be canned immediately. It is a bad idea.

[shadowhawk]

I tend to agree... it's as if we as a collective had some kind of divine right to decide whether someone should be allowed to do X. The only correct answer is that "it's none of our business". You are not your brothers' keepers!

The attitude in these threads disgusts me.

I guess you have to believe in free-will to trust that children will not be brainwashed by their parents. It's our duty to protect children, just like we should have warning labels on unhealthy foods.

The questions is : how can we declare children unable to make decisions about driving, sex, alcohol use, or joining the military until a certain age - yet we start them off with religion from day one?

WARNING : your parents are going to brainwash you with mind-bending gibberish, the surgeon general advises the use of earplugs at the dinner table and during sunday school.

Socially inacceptable religions are already prohibited, the state will take your children if you teach them a religion that requires them to break laws.

She didn't say that. Children are developing through a process of maturity and growth. Parents are needed in that process and with everything else they pass on their values and beliefs. If you don't want to teach your children about religion don't. I won't complain or try to stop you. The question is what gives you the right to stop parents from teaching there kids about any subject?

Faith or views about the world are not the same as driving, sex, alcohol or other adult things like that. What I would be afraid of is you brainwashing my kids and I trust myself more than you. All religions are not the same either and neither religion or non religion gives you the right to do anything.

Edited by shadowhawk, 20 October 2010 - 09:37 PM.

[Vindex]

I say invest in better education. Better educated people will in turn educate better. I honestly think a better education system would solve a lot of the world's problems. Obviously the effects of a better education are not immediate and I hate it that governments fail to see that, or just don't give a damn.

Every children is born with a passionate curiosity which should be nourished, not silenced. Parents shouldn't provide answers/indoctrination, but rather encourage investigation and freedom of thought. Children absorb their parent's behavior and teachings like a sponge, and thus, ignorance sprouts more ignorance and we see ourselves forced to live in a totally dysfunctional world.

I remember I felt awesome when I learned how to read, how come later on I looked upon books as the most boring thing in the Universe? Well my family isn't exactly well read, neither were my friends. It's probably not an accurate correlation but it's well researched how social environment molds us.
This is all obvious. Abolishing religion doesn't abolish ignorance (the true problem), might help but it's not the way IMO.

Maybe it's dangerous for the governments to invest in education (no tinfoil hat), ignorant people are more easily contained. I don't know how to overcome this problem, I'm also ignorant, but as far as government goes, what a better investment than education and science? What countries focus their energy on this two areas? (honestly don't know, but probably none)

So no, I do not agree with the abolishment of religion, but believe me, I can see the appeal.

More education, less superstition, better humanity. That's my belief.

[abolitionist]

Not teaching kids your religion doesn't mean that the state is teaching them one. Unless you call science a religion.

I would think that learning about religion as culture at a young age would be a good thing.

Also, children don't have the mental capacity to understand certain concepts until they develop - that's partly why we don't let them make certain kinds of decisions in society until advanced ages.

If you use social pressure on them and the brainwashing techniques of most religions - they'll likely not be able to resist being infected with religious memes. That goes against the rights of children IMO.

The rights of parents to do whatever they want shouldn't be more important than the rights of children to be free of brainwashing.

Forcing religion is a form of abuse.

If children are abused by religion they should be protected by law.

Edited by abolitionist, 20 October 2010 - 11:13 PM.

[shadowhawk]

I say invest in better education. Better educated people will in turn educate better. I honestly think a better education system would solve a lot of the world's problems. Obviously the effects of a better education are not immediate and I hate it that governments fail to see that, or just don't give a damn.

Every children is born with a passionate curiosity which should be nourished, not silenced. Parents shouldn't provide answers/indoctrination, but rather encourage investigation and freedom of thought. Children absorb their parent's behavior and teachings like a sponge, and thus, ignorance sprouts more ignorance and we see ourselves forced to live in a totally dysfunctional world.

I remember I felt awesome when I learned how to read, how come later on I looked upon books as the most boring thing in the Universe? Well my family isn't exactly well read, neither were my friends. It's probably not an accurate correlation but it's well researched how social environment molds us.
This is all obvious. Abolishing religion doesn't abolish ignorance (the true problem), might help but it's not the way IMO.

Maybe it's dangerous for the governments to invest in education (no tinfoil hat), ignorant people are more easily contained. I don't know how to overcome this problem, I'm also ignorant, but as far as government goes, what a better investment than education and science? What countries focus their energy on this two areas? (honestly don't know, but probably none)

So no, I do not agree with the abolishment of religion, but believe me, I can see the appeal.

More education, less superstition, better humanity. That's my belief.

How much education do you have to have to educate your own children? Can you educate someone else’s children? Can you answer Children’s questions like why is there something rather than nothing? When did you learn the answer to this question and what is the answer you learned? The largest educational systems in the world are religious. What is the age you can talk about God?

Children soon ask all the big questions of life as any parent will tell you. Often they can ask the questions but can’t receive the answers. Everything is taught when age appropriate. Age appropriate discussions about God can cone far before parents job of teaching is over.

What way would it help to abolish teaching about religion? How is this education? Aren’t you promoting ignorance? The Nazis were into education and science. So was the Soviet Union and China. They stopped parents from teaching.

[Vindex]

Forcing religion is a form of abuse.

So is advertising, TV and pop culture in general. I don't know which is worst and ignorance amplifies their dangers tremendously. Ban ignorance and this things altogether. It works.

Most atheists were as brainwashed as the next guy in their early ages. There were a ton of factors involved in changing their grounded concepts. Once you're indoctrinated it's not the end of the world, it's a reversible process, very hard though. But try banning something people hold dear to them and they won't understand, they won't accept it. Plus, this kind of view further contributes to the whole "atheists are intolerant angry kids" notion.

Banning this forced religious indoctrination implies banning a shit-ton of other things, it would never happen. With an educated population you wouldn't need to ban half the things banned today. Denying this and that is presented as an easy solution to various problems and this is not true. As time passes we would tend to abolish more and more.

Religion is in decline (Maybe not so much in the US due to the state actively promoting it, an abomination). This is all thanks to knowledge, free flowing information. An atheist parent won't educate his child in the (b)light of <insert religion of choice>. All this information readily available forces people to think, that's one of the reasons why internet is so awesome. There's point A and there's also point B, maybe even C and D, you can't simply pick one. No pre-digested information, just raw data. (Obviously exaggerating, there's the bad side too, but the point remains)

I agree with the quote, but is banning truly desirable?

[shadowhawk]

Not teaching kids your religion doesn't mean that the state is teaching them one. Unless you call science a religion.

I would think that learning about religion as culture at a young age would be a good thing.

Also, children don't have the mental capacity to understand certain concepts until they develop - that's partly why we don't let them make certain kinds of decisions in society until advanced ages.

If you use social pressure on them and the brainwashing techniques of most religions - they'll likely not be able to resist being infected with religious memes. That goes against the rights of children IMO.

The rights of parents to do whatever they want shouldn't be more important than the rights of children to be free of brainwashing.

Forcing religion is a form of abuse.

If children are abused by religion they should be protected by law.

Are you saying Children can’t understand God? Proof. They understand God like any subject and that changes by growth and maturity. What child understands any subject like an adult? This is like saying you can’t teach a child about history or math until they are old enough to understand the subject on an adult level. No educated teacher has such a silly concept of education.

I can tell you know little of Christian and religious education to call it, “brainwashing.” You are the one wanting to keep children from learning about God. You are against the rights of children to learn about God when age appropriate. The rights of children to be free from the manipulation of Atheists in their education should be more important than Atheists abusive desire to brainwash them.

[Vindex]

[1]How much education do you have to have to educate your own children? [2]Can you educate someone else’s children? Can [3]you answer Children’s questions like why is there something rather than nothing? [4]When did you learn the answer to this question and what is the answer you learned? The largest educational systems in the world are religious. [5]What is the age you can talk about God?

Children soon ask all the big questions of life as any parent will tell you. Often they can ask the questions but can’t receive the answers. Everything is taught when age appropriate. Age appropriate discussions about God can cone far before parents job of teaching is over.

What way would it help to abolish teaching about religion? How is this education? Aren’t you promoting ignorance? The Nazis were into education and science. So was the Soviet Union and China. They stopped parents from teaching.

I'm not denying the usefulness of a parent in educating their children, not at all. First off, by education I mean access to information, not only the "relevant" one, but all information. Also, education doesn't necessarily mean school, though it should be the core of it, and schooling itself could be improved in many ways, always deviating from indoctrination.

As I said, all those big questions children ask are a remarkable quality of childhood and shouldn't be taken lightly, as they'll probably only ask them once and write the answer in stone.
[1]How much education should a parent have? As much as possible.
[2]I'm not sure if you're addressing those first questions directly to me or in a rhetorical sense, I'll go with the first. Can I or should I? That would be the parent's job, I just hope they can do it right.
[3]Next, I don't believe in straight answers at these tender ages, I would definitely try to convey to them this are enigmatic questions and no one knows for sure, trying to show them the value of the scientific method and, why not, expressing my opinion on the subject while stressing the fact that it's just an opinion as valid as others.
[4]Well, the answer I got was "God did it all, don't question why" and I was too young to remember, does this seem fine to you?
[5]I think you should talk about God as soon as they ask about him, tell them who he is and how he is a character in various books.
I don't care the largest educational systems are religious, what's the point? That religion should be associated with education? Why not with politics too?

That last paragraph seems to be implying I favor the abolishment of religion. I never said that. I am against indoctrination of any kind, religion wouldn't be an exception. Although I am against a children being taken to Sunday morning brainwashing, emotion appealing cults, my views shouldn't be made law. The teaching of religion however is as useful as any other cultural remark. Religion is a part of our culture and should be accessible knowledge, just like history and philosophy. I won't discuss that Nazi comparison, as I've already said what I believe education is. Summarizing, education =/= indoctrination.

I can tell you know little of Christian and religious education to call it, “brainwashing.” You are the one wanting to keep children from learning about God. You are against the rights of children to learn about God when age appropriate. The rights of children to be free from the manipulation of Atheists in their education should be more important than Atheists abusive desire to brainwash them.

But I know Christianity and religious education all to well to say loud and clear: it's brainwashing.
This: "The rights of children to be free from the manipulation of Atheists in their education should be more important than Atheists abusive desire to brainwash them." is why I say this: "Plus, this kind of view further contributes to the whole "atheists are intolerant angry kids" notion."

Edited by Vindex, 21 October 2010 - 02:03 AM.

[abolitionist]

Ok, so there are some folks here who think that parents should be able to force their children to believe as they do and adopt their religion.

Answering a child's question is not the same thing as brainwashing. For instance, if a child asks;

"why is there something rather than nothing?"

you can just say, "there are many philosophers and mythologists who have made up their own answers" and tell them to investigate and learn - that's very different from forcing your child to say hail mary's or telling them that rock and roll is the devil

or to answer "what is god?"

simply say - that is a word with many meanings to many different people, there's alot of information out there regarding the word god

it's not for you to tell them what god is - it's for them to think about for themselves.

Nazi religious parents always try to force their beliefs on their children - control freaks who are blinded by their own brainwashing.

saving children from coercive brainwashing is not the same thing as the cultural revolution in china

now think about those Islamic suicide bombers who were brainwashed from a young age

also think about those who refuse to become immortalists due to religious beliefs - just imagine if the entire world was composed of immortalists - how much more chance would you personally have of beating your own death.

Religion is killing you as we speak.

Think about your tax dollars funding religious wars.

Edited by abolitionist, 21 October 2010 - 03:41 AM.

[abolitionist]

Many thought that the slave owning lords of the past would never give up their slaves - and that it was their right to enslave them.

It takes time to change things like forced religion.

Fortunately we have a good foundation with the separation of church and state.

Unfortunately, we're all dying and suffering for want of scientific intervention while they continue to pray for god to help them - wasting resources and time on ritual and superstition - avoiding the hard truths of life and preventing progress.

Time is not on the side of the individual immortalist.

[shadowhawk]

VINDEX
[1]How much education should a parent have? As much as possible.

Is there a minimum education level where parents, even atheist parents, should not be able to answer their children's questions about God?

[2]I'm not sure if you're addressing those first questions directly to me or in a rhetorical sense, I'll go with the first. Can I or should I? That would be the parent's job, I just hope they can do it right.

And what if the parent answered, "Yes honey there is a God and mommy believes in Him." "Where do you go Sunday morning Mommy?" "To Church." "Can I go?" "NO!!!" Is this "right?"

[3]Next, I don't believe in straight answers at these tender ages, I would definitely try to convey to them this are enigmatic questions and no one knows for sure, trying to show them the value of the scientific method and, why not, expressing my opinion on the subject while stressing the fact that it's just an opinion as valid as others.

What does the Scientific method have to do with God? I believe in the Scientific methods and I don't think it has much to do with God. It is a process not a position.
http://www.toughques...e-supernatural/

[4]Well, the answer I got was "God did it all, don't question why" and I was too young to remember, does this seem fine to you?

I was raised an Athirst so this does not apply to me. My answer to my own children would now be, "God did it and we can now use science to discover how it works" Science is limited in what we can know.

http://www.teach12.c...l.aspx?cid=1235

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-2FrnjQ6kg&feature=related

[5]I think you should talk about God as soon as they ask about him, tell them who he is and how he is a character in various books.
I don't care the largest educational systems are religious, what's the point? That religion should be associated with education? Why not with politics too?

Yes, I think religion should be just like any other subject and free to be taught or not taught by parents. The same goes for politics. Theists can and do teach and explore every subject possible.

The Bible says God is Love, 1 John 4:8-16 God is Light 1 John 1:5-7 God is Spirit John 4: 24 God is faster than light, and being outside the realm of the atomic world and is outside the realm of time. Hebrews 13:8 "He is the same yesterday, today and forever". 1 Tim 6:16 "He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. God is larger than Science is. Can we talk to Children about something to complex for Science?

But I know Christianity and religious education all to well to say loud and clear: it's brainwashing.

What is your definition of brainwashing?

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Mind_control

In the process of brainwashing, someone is persuaded to believe something through a combination of tactics. There are many approaches to this, but they all tend to rely on separating someone from everything he or she knows, breaking that person down to a vulnerable emotional state, and then gradually introducing new concepts. As people absorb the new material, they are rewarded for expressing thoughts and ideas which conform with these ideas, further reinforcing the brainwashing. Aren't you trying to separate families from their beliefs and then brainwash them?

Edited by shadowhawk, 21 October 2010 - 09:14 PM.

[Vindex]

Is there a minimum education level where parents, even atheist parents, should not be able to answer their children's questions about God?

Every parent should feel the true responsibility it is to raise a child and educate themselves. Transmitting superstition to their children's innocent, inquisitive minds is an awful thing to do. But in my opinion, law has nothing to do with it, though it should be fought.

And what if the parent answered, "Yes honey there is a God and mommy believes in Him." "Where do you go Sunday morning Mommy?" "To Church." "Can I go?" "NO!!!" Is this "right?"

I doubt any child will deliberately want to visit a church. If mommy says there is a God she's being a bad mom already.

What does the Scientific method have to do with God? I believe in the Scientific methods and I don't think it has much to do with God. It is a process not a position.
http://www.toughques...e-supernatural/

Thanks for the laughable article. Supernatural is a fallacy. If God exists, we can find out thru science. If there's no evidence for his existence, either he doesn't exist or our methods are insufficient.

I was raised an Athirst so this does not apply to me. My answer to my own children would now be, "God did it and we can now use science to discover how it works" Science is limited in what we can know.

http://www.teach12.c...l.aspx?cid=1235

Science is limited, but the best tool we've got. Plus, it's self-improving. Emotion tells us nothing about reality.
You're another example of bad parenting. What told you God exists? You feel it in your heart? Schizophrenia (that one has an excuse)? Not only does God exist, it's the Christian one and told his servants to write a book as proof. Awesome. Tell me about this superior method to know reality.

Yes, I think religion should be just like any other subject and free to be taught or not taught by parents. The same goes for politics. Theists can and do teach and explore every subject possible.

Ok, but if there's something called "Christian school" it should limit itself to teaching Christianity, period. It's not it's place to teach science or any other subject.

The Bible says God is Love, 1 John 4:8-16 God is Light 1 John 1:5-7 God is Spirit John 4: 24 God is faster than light, and being outside the realm of the atomic world and is outside the realm of time. Hebrews 13:8 "He is the same yesterday, today and forever". 1 Tim 6:16 "He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. God is larger than Science is. Can we talk to Children about something to complex for Science?

Great, citations, totally did it for me. Is that your superior method? Can't even begin to grasp it...

What is your definition of brainwashing?

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Mind_control

In the process of brainwashing, someone is persuaded to believe something through a combination of tactics. There are many approaches to this, but they all tend to rely on separating someone from everything he or she knows, breaking that person down to a vulnerable emotional state, and then gradually introducing new concepts. As people absorb the new material, they are rewarded for expressing thoughts and ideas which conform with these ideas, further reinforcing the brainwashing.

Take children as an example. You don't need to separate them from anything because they're an empty book already. They're also in a vulnerable emotional state, subject to indoctrination, that's how infant psychology works. The reward of religion is eternal life free of suffering, hell is the alternative, working as an additional "encouragement".
As you can see, brainwashing a children is the easiest thing to do and it's done everyday all across the globe.

Aren't you trying to separate families from their beliefs and then brainwash them?

Brainwash them into atheists right? More like brainwashwashing them...
Please don't compare the two, we're trying to show how superstitious thought is irrational and dangerous. If you can't see that then I'm sorry.

[shadowhawk]

ablotionist
Ok, so there are some folks here who think that parents should be able to force their children to believe as they do and adopt their religion.

Religious parents no more force children to believe in God than they do to eat. Almost every child \I know who believes, enjoys their faith and express it in an age appropriate manner. Just like adults. Believing in God is a wonderful experience.

Answering a child's question is not the same thing as brainwashing. For instance, if a child asks;

"why is there something rather than nothing?"

you can just say, "there are many philosophers and mythologists who have made up their own answers" and tell them to investigate and learn - that's very different from forcing your child to say hail Mary's or telling them that rock and roll is the devil

or to answer "what is god?"

Or like my parents, "If there is a God who made God." I was about five when asked that. Would this question be alright? When you say they made up answers their own that is alright? I think you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. I am not a Roman Catholic but I know lots of them. I know of no one forced to say Hail Mary's. Ask a Catholic yourself. http://forums.catholic.com/

s

imply say - that is a word with many meanings to many different people, there's a lot of information out there regarding the word god.

Can you give them the answer you found? Isn't what information you find just from some other person like you? Why can't the parent give them their answer? Won't your answer confuse the child? When the child grows up can they teach their children what they learned? How is your answer simple?

it's not for you to tell them what god is - it's for them to think about for themselves.

I would think it is the job of a parent to teach and that does not mean children can't think for themselves, does it? Where did your commandment, "Its not for you to tell them," come from? Nonsense.

Nazi religious parents always try to force their beliefs on their children - control freaks who are blinded by their own brainwashing.

I don't know any Nazi Religious parents. Who are they?

saving children from coercive brainwashing is not the same thing as the cultural revolution in china

We agree!

now think about those Islamic suicide bombers who were brainwashed from a young age.

Yes, horrible. Do you hate Islam?

also think about those who refuse to become immortalists due to religious beliefs - just imagine if the entire world was composed of immortalists - how much more chance would you personally have of beating your own death.

Some believe in extending life as long as we can bit do not believe in immortalism as some here do. There are lots of reasons for this. Can we teach children there is no basis for some ol these beliefs and so far almost everyone who has ever lived is dead?

Religion is killing you as we speak.

No comment. Can we not teach this to our children? Atheists have been so peaceful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQAYXlSDvlY

Think about your tax dollars funding religious wars.

Again, can we not teach this to our children these are religious wars?

Edited by shadowhawk, 21 October 2010 - 11:25 PM.

[JLL]

It's our duty to protect children, just like we should have warning labels on unhealthy foods.

No... it's not. If they're not your children, it's none of your business.

[abolitionist]

It's our duty to protect children, just like we should have warning labels on unhealthy foods.

No... it's not. If they're not your children, it's none of your business.

Do you think that parents should be able to abuse their children sexually? or beat them?

[JLL]

It's our duty to protect children, just like we should have warning labels on unhealthy foods.

No... it's not. If they're not your children, it's none of your business.

Do you think that parents should be able to abuse their children sexually? or beat them?

No.