8 replies to this topic

[transgrl]

I definitely am pro radical life extension and run a website exposing our fraudulent worldwide monetary system ( http://www.moneyfiles.org )

Economics has aways shaped history: economic busts mean social disruptions and/or wars. The death of economy is the economy of death!

Although there have been 1,200 fiat monetary systems tried throughout history, the one we now have since about 300 years is flawed and corrupt. The Russian and the French Revolutions did happen because of that. Did you know? What to think of the Napoleonic wars and raise of Stalin, WW1, WW2 and the ensuring Cold War? The global Elite is not stupid, everything is clearly orchestrated to keep us under control and fear.

It is yet the same Elite who claimed 25 years ago or so: "Globalization will be the greatest achievement of the millennium"......... really? Please keep reading for your onw sake.

The current monetary system because without any intrisic value causes the booms and busts (recessions and depressions). Booms=credit expansion/bubbles. Bust=liquidation of bad loans..... all of which ALWAYS leaves the taxpayers and/or investors holding the bag therefore. The immediate results are the loss of the purchasing power and people piling on debt.

When currencies are backed by an intrisic value, the debt level never becomes threatening because monetary policies obey the law of supply and demand (free markets). It is the bust cycle that causes unemployment, consumer/corporate defaults. It is however futile to create social programs under such circumstances. Social programs (aggravating the loss of purchaing power) are a mere other way to boost the economy in time of recession, and the spin continues unabated.

IN TIME OF BOOMS comsumer borrow because he thinks he will be able to pay everything off... IN TIME OF BUST, the consumer borrows to stay afloat...

ECONOMIC POWER FALLACY: Economic power when a country is allowed to have more debt creation (BIGGER CREDIT LINE) than another one, where is Justice in all that? Right now Japan is technically as poor as Botswana. And Ghana the 2nd gold world producer must beg for money!!! Hyperinflation is currently ravaging africa... zimbawe is dealing with 450% inflation while America is flooding the world markets with billions at 1% rate!.... the truth is that there isn't any Free-Market at all but economic manipulations. Yes, you got it: Mother Nature made sure no one could take over the world unethically.

THE DEVIL WEARS PINK: just before the 1929 crash, wall street was bullish more than ever. In mathematics, the intrisic value is capital, 1 will always equal 1. If you have an economic system that makes you think 1=2, 3 or 4, then you cannot solve your equations. And this is what debt based economies do!!! They trick the way we view economic dynamics from A to Z. And of course there are always a bad appels to blame for when a bubble pops. But financial manias are too related to the fact that our monetary system can be inflated at will and overnight (Enron is the tip of the iceberg)..... until the music stops. But it is the system itself that generates much more corruption than it should - the world cannot be perfect.

No matter how we look at the picture, central banks always are the culprits because they are the one isssuing the money supply. Creating debts out of nothing comes down to a ponzi scheme.

Currencies with an intrisic values are real money/honest money. Money needs work to be created, not generated by pushing on the button of the money printing press. It is the work to extract gold/silver that gives money its intrisic value.

It is however vital to understand sound economics to comprehend the current world messy events, (global bankruptcy and global war on terror, see the link?). Because of our debt based economies, who is going to replace the baby boomers and considering that the US/world population is going down ? Who Will Replace The Baby Boomers? Do we need another war to create another baby boom ??

Everything becoming more expensive? Not really, that are just the banking interests running wild... because of that corporations and social costs increase every day and call for more borrowing!!!! With our current monetary system, estimates are always wrong because every bubble eventually bursts...... Any attempt to reform or regulate is useless, any step embracing the money printing press just postpones the problem and makes the outcome even worst! US Baby Boomers Short on Savings (50% of the population endagered) [www.latimes.com] U.S Medicare Plunder [www.house.gov]

What you are about the learn is going to shock you deeply but if you truly want Humanity to achieve radical life extension, prosperity and peace, here is your chance! Those important facts cannot be denied. With the monetary system we have there is no wealth redistubution but absolute predation by man upon man.

OUR CURRENT KEYNESIAN ECONOMY EXPLAINED IN A FEW WORDS:

"........If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered. "... - Thomas Jefferson

Even Keynes knew the dangers of his theory:

"By a continuous process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method, they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some....The process engages all of the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner that not one man in a million can diagnose." - John Maynard Keynes Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920

However, there is no time to lose because the game is over!

GLOBALLY! (go to www.moneyfiles.org, website tracking the US/world bankruptcy)

Please also keep in mind that every culture, race is concerned... and this is the very ugly side of it.... willing to address the bottom line will demand us the courage to challenge everything we were told and taught - socially and culturally... what we, the world citizens, today are going through, is the beginning of the end, the the collapse of a scheme we all have supported because of our own ignorance... I discovered all this after 9-11, power corrupts and asbolute power corrupts absolutely as they say, it sadly rings so true.

ADDICTED TO DEBTS IS LIKE COCAINE ADDICTION: What humanity is suffering from is 1] usury, concept prohibited by major religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) and 2] printing money out nothing causing corporate and govt cartelization... there is nonetheless a famous quote whose author I will not name and which says: allow me to issue the currency of a country and I do not care who makes the law...

Lending must be done at 0% interest, because of the human nature itself: our fellow humans will always find a good reason to put you in the red if they can profit from it. And ignoring this will repeat the same errors, misconceptions until the lesson is learned... and we obviously now have reached this tipping point, the critical threshold.

CONCLUSION OR WHY RATIONAL THINKING : it is however clear that big govt's are not the solution but adopting premises that truly respect human rights and the right of property. The lack of those premises doom every effort to address economic/social justice. Considering that this fraudulent worldwide monetary system is more than 300 year old, we can only conclude that even History itself has been corrupted. (along with the way many people view Classical Liberalism (aka libertarianism) and Objectivism, as they were represented to them. And this is the worldwide great deception which we have to overcome for a greater good.

GREAT UK WEBSITE EXPLAINING ECONOMICS IN SIMPLE TERMS FOR EVERYONE.... http://www.prosperityuk.com/prosperity/articles/article-idx.html


THE PREMISE PROBLEME: Because of the spontaneous self-interested nature of Man, we need to espouse premises that go along with it. Helping our neighbors direcly works much better than expecting the govt to do it. We must favor small local charities vs (inter)national charities. It is the micro that makes the macro (and not otherwise) and if this were taught at school at a very early age, people would see this as a life insurance so to speak. Wealth and peace must come from the bottom up and cannot be dictated by an elite, simply because power corrupts....

Please understand that I do not wish to ruin your day but that the quest for Truth is the only path possible... what is revealed to you today is very shocking and extremely painful, and this will require to let alone everything you were taught. This may not please you but I valuate friendship and therefore will ask you to not be upset at me but the worldwide system we live in instead. We all were lied to in the end.

Please protect yourself against the impending disaster with buying PHYSICAL silver or gold (coins), because what is coming straight to us is everything beyond what you can figure out. It is not possible to say when exactly this economic demise will strike, but surely within the next coming year.

Today, the world credit bubble is about $400 trillion dollars and since 2000 the world productivity is down by 50% because we simply cannot consume more than we need. The Founding Fathers were visionaries and they were right when drafting a US constitution limiting the govt powers, proclaiming sound currencies as the only constitutional/lawful money and condemned anyone debasing the currency to the death penalty!

Okay, I have tried to summarize the issues at stake as best as I could, I will stop here.

Friendly!

If you want to volunteer for the sound monetary movement, please email me at transgirl@libertyhaven.com

TO READ MORE KEY ARTICLES EXPOSING THE HUMANITARIAN ECONOMIC DRAMA:
just go to: http://www.moneyfile...g/movement.html

[Lazarus Long]

Two powerful flaws leap from the pages of what is a premise that I am fundamentally in agreement with. They are:

A: Silver and gold have any intrinsic value other than the demand we place upon them.

B: That we cannot change human nature.

Both gold and silver are worthless commodities other than by their utility and I can change my nature hence the assumption humans cannot change their nature is false. You can argue your values for silver and gold and I can argue their subjective worth and inherent dependence on utility but like "salt and spices" in the ancient mind I suggest I will win as time is on my side.

You can argue that I cannot change and I will return to say provide me a challenge and I will surmount this obstacle too.

I wish that such sites as you offer sounded less hysterical because as I said in the beginning I fundamentally agree with many of the premises. We are addicted to a debtor's economy and it is antithetical to the long term interests of those of us here that are serious in our efforts. But these two particular flaws among many are so profound as to demand special attention.

[Mind]

I have to agree with Lazarus on this point. Gold/Silver and other "precious" things reflect only the value that the human psyche places on them. If the economy of the world was based on a gold standard then the same people who manipulate the markets now (by printing money) would still manipulate the markets...they would do it by manipulating the pscycological value of gold. It might be a little tougher to manipulate, but it would still be done.

If you are saying that the value of gold is the "work" that goes into digging it out of the ground and processing it, then you are essentially tying the economy of the world to units of energy (joules). I see few problems with this as units of energy are a fundemental quantity. I am not so sure that the value of a unit of energy can be psycologically manipulated to seem or less than it is. One joule can only do so much work. However, advancing technology will make energy a plentiful substance, basically a limitless commodity. The universe is made of energy. So it would seem in the future scarcity would no longer be a driving factor of economies.

In my opinion, the driving factor in the future will probably be creativeness. People who are more creative will have a higher value in the economy. Objects that are born out of creative work (not replicative or destructive work) will be the only things that hold value. Am I rambling?

[Lazarus Long]

Actually Mind the distinction you are making as to value being equal to the cost of production is a common fallacy too. Value is predicated on what a market will bear, hence demand. Cost of production is an element of overhead investment and relates to a "base value" not an item's "intrinsic value" as it reflects both "investment and desirability" along with an ability to pay the "price." An object loses value if there is not sufficient means to pay the price.

Nothing would exist on the basis of simply analyzing the cost of production, especially initial costs of production, which are inevitably many times higher than subsequents cost after developing efficiencies of scale.

Gold in particular and other precious commodities have value that is ONLY IN PART derived of their being "rare" (directly demand related) in part out of a cultural context (the memetics of the first metals) and in part out of their longevity of the substances (gold and precious stones in particular).

There is also a social and psychological characteristic that could be derivative of both genetics and memetics and this is the "glitter effect." Humans are not alone in coveting polished shiny objects and many animals including pack rats will collect such items. It is not clear what part of our neurophysiology is activated by this attraction and I leave it up to subsequent study to clarify the matter but there is definitely an overlapping genetic/memetic relationship.

[Lazarus Long]

So it would seem in the future scarcity would no longer be a driving factor of economies.

There are a number of factors when addressing this issue; here are three.

First it hasn't happened yet.

Second vested interests will resist this transition as not in their "self interest".

Third the cost of translating energy to matter will not necessarily always be equivalent to zero, especially if the energy consumption were sufficient to be said to be infinite itself, and that is assuming the Universe contains Infinite Energy, which as it is being more and more studied appears itself to be a fallacy.

[Mind]

Actually Mind the distinction you are making as to value being equal to the cost of production is a common fallacy too. Value is predicated on what a market will bear, hence demand. Cost of production is an element of overhead investment and relates to a "base value" not an items "intrinsic value".

I tried to explain this same thought in my post...obviously not too well.

I guess I made three points.

1. The "base value" of gold is just the value of energy that goes into digging it up and processing it. Since future technology will make energy virtually limitless, gold will have no "base value".

2. The "intrinsic value" of gold is susceptible to manipulation the same as paper money is.

3. The only real economic value of someone or something in the future will be her/he/its "creativeness".

[Lazarus Long]

1. The "base value" of gold is just the value of energy that goes into digging it up and processing it. Since future technology will make energy virtually limitless, gold will have no "base value".

2. The "intrinsic value" of gold is susceptible to manipulation the same as paper money is.

3. The only real economic value of someone or something in the future will be her/he/its "creativeness

"For the record" I happen to agree with one and two and also hope number three comes to be. In fact I am investing a considerable effort at making it so.

[transgrl]

A RESPONSE TO ALL:

Thanks for take the time to reply:

instead of rebuffing my argument, would you explain instead why when market tanks (CRASHES) there is a commodity rush - expecially in gold and silver?

I endorse the austrian economics school of thought since it is the only one capable to explain more than 3,000 years of world economics.

From the Asian, Latin American and Russian Crisis, the deepening impoverishment of the developing world, the unsustainable U.S twin deficit to the global consumer credit crunch, we find ourselves dealing with the same patterns... The credit binge fulled by the World Central Banks. This should call us into action and demand a monetary system that has an intrinsic value, backed by commodities such as Gold and Silver. We cannot change the Human Nature, but we can change our monetary system to avert predatory lending. Booms and Globalization always will be a delusion as long as we ignore the issue. There is no surprise if busts and wars are excellent bed fellows.

My posting hysterical?
I dont think so, please drop by moneyfiles.org and you will see the DIRE situation we are in.... to put it simply America (dollar based economy) is about to crash. Maybe are you just unaware of this??

The gold/silver standard is not perfect (because nothing is never pefect) but it is the best way to prevent predatory lending in our today society... as for the possible corruption of gold/silver standard, just as everything it up to us humans to have enough vigilance and to comprehend once and for all that power corrupts and that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The problems mentioned (related to the gold/silver standard) by some of those who responded my posting are rather linked to knowledge itself, the ability of Man to reason rationally. Irrationality is the greatest danger of all.

Life will always implies a certain danger anyway.

As long as the society does not become money-free, a concept that I firmily believe in, but which may take another 100 years to achieve, only intrisic values are worth considering.

READ THE GREAT MONEY EXPERIMENT:
http://www.moneyfile...experiment.html

EPILOGUE? (WRITTEN BY MYSELF)

Although Capitalism has existed only during the era known as the Renaissance (and other very short periods of time throughout history), Capitalism is dead forever. Even The Great Rome and Byzantine Empire too succumbed monetary corruption. What is occurring today is not unique phenomenon at all. What does this mean? That Man is unable to deal with a fair monetary system. Extremely sad but so... the worldwide DEBT BOMB was bound to happen and it is most likely why we may expect a important philosophical shift in the next coming 50 years, which we lead to the death of Money as a concept. Meanwhile, we must support a strict gold/silver standard because we don't have any other solution.

I for one see the true futuristic society as money-free. With Nanotech making production costs very inexpensive, we'll all be rewarded according to our rank while every world citizen will be enjoying universal health care and teaching. The value of exchange called money will be replaced with services. When? This could take another 50-100 years from now, but that's the path I think we'll be taking. Feudalism and exploitation has been Earth's the cup tea since the beginning of the ages, what do you think will happen when world citizens will finally come to their senses and decide to put an end to this atrocious illusion?

It is not far fectched to assume that the ensuing emotional shock (if/when it occurs) will be such (TOTALLY UNBEARABLE) that a major philosophical shift will not let us any other fashion to counteract.

Having a monetary system within a society where knowledge can be accessed for free (due to the Mega-Computers take over) is NOT workable, History speaks by itself. We've got two choices: either predation leading to the possible extinction of the human race (economic wars and powerful weaponry is a deadly cocktail) or terminating the concept of money for a greater good. If we don't go that road, Mad Max or Blade Runner can well become a reality. Between profits and society..... we must chose?

RESPONSE BY JAMES JEAGER (AUTHOR OF THE GREAT MONEY EXPERIMENT)
Yes, you make perfect sense.
The monetary world in which we find ourselves is an arbitrary and temporary construct. Money, as a medium of exchange, will soon cease to exist. This will happen because technology will make it possible to create products with significant ease, thus it will eventually cost more to support the accounting/monetary system than it costs to manufacture the products............ more. (see link to read the ful response)

[Lazarus Long]

Actually I said the principle site you referenced sounds hysterical not you particularly. I still think the banner headlines of predicted doom sounds hysterical BTW. I also happen to think much of it will happen but it is still not the end of the world.
http://www.moneyfile...g/movement.html
http://www.gata.org/crashmaker.html

I also said I am fundamentally in agreement with many aspects of what you are saying about the threats to the economy, I am just not in total agreement as to why these events are occurring however. In addition I don't buy into overly complex global conspiracy theories but I will say there are enough small to mid level conspiracies going around to make the difference moot.

Calm down and look at a few of the claims you have made, For example:

Although Capitalism has existed only during the era known as the Renaissance (and other very short periods of time throughout history), Capitalism is dead forever. Even The Great Rome and Byzantine Empire too succumbed monetary corruption. What is occurring today is not unique phenomenon at all. What does this mean?

First of all Capitalism didn't begin with the Renaissance, that period heralded the beginning of the end of Feudal Capitalism and the very beginning of Industrial Capitalism, the beginning of whose end we are witnessing in our lifetimes.

Rome was Capitalistic and more like our State sponsored Industrial Capitalism than the monarchs of the middle ages were, in fact Rome was a Military Industrial Economy, please look closer at the problem, Carthage was a Free Market Capitalist State more akin to what Libertarians claim they wish for. It was predicated on a Free trade policy with supply and demand as the bulwark of a Maritime Hegemony of Merchant Marines. You seem to think all forms of capitalism mean the same and this is just not true.

Did monetary corruption cause the demise of the states you mention, or was monetary corruption a consequence of the demise of the states? Actually they are separate aspects that contribute at different periods to one another in a synergistic manner.

My posting hysterical?
I dont think so, please drop by moneyfiles.org and you will see the DIRE situation we are in.... to put it simply America (dollar based economy) is about to crash. Maybe are you just unaware of this??

The gold/silver standard is not perfect (because nothing is never pefect) but it is the best way to prevent predatory lending in our today society... as for the possible corruption of gold/silver standard, just as everything it up to us humans to have enough vigilance and to comprehend once and for all that power corrupts and that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The problems mentioned (related to the gold/silver standard) by some of those who responded my posting are rather linked to knowledge itself, the ability of Man to reason rationally. Irrationality is the greatest danger of all.

Life will always implies a certain danger anyway.

Actually when you try and connect these many issues in this tenuous a fashion I am inclined to suggest that your manner of expression is a bit hysterical. Again calm down please. The style of banner fonts and DIRE threats is a good example of Chicken Little rhetoric. That in itself however doesn't disqualify what you say. But lets look at the substance of the statements above.

First of all your last point; a generic admonition, but reasonably accurate, so long as we live death is a threat. So be it but it is unrelated to the claims of the first part.

Actually the claim is the American dollar is about to crash, and the implied claim is that I am unaware of this possibility. Probably you have not read my arguments in other areas so you are unaware of the fact that we have previously discussed the interesting relationship of the competitiveness of the dollar with the Euro and the idea that the euro is now competing to supplant the dollar standard for global trade. You are relatively new to ths forum so you don't know that we have posted at length here about how the possibility of economic factors related to shifting trade relationships and dependency on specific dwindling resources can spell disaster for not only own economy but for much of the world's. So you are incorrect in your assumption of our (or my own) ignorance of these matters.

I suggest you are also confused as to the fundamental underlying causes of what is occurring. If you want to blame a particular aspect of what is driving our economy to ruin it would be better to blame the car than a lack of gold eagles. Gold is worthless except as jewelry and fine circuits. It is highly prized as radiation shielding for deep space vessels as well. Precious metals are worth less than nothing without a demand for them. Can you eat them? Will they power your computer and car? Heat your home or more importantly can you learn from them?

Gold and silver are valuable to those that do not understand what true value is. If life is priceless how much is that in gold and silver?

Anyway we have not been on the old gold/silver standard in the US for decades actually. No more silver backed fed notes and gold back reserves, the paper they print is just paper and the "trust" is in the idea they have wealth that is in fact ours to begin with, not "theirs".

There hasn't been enough gold and silver in fort Knox for most of the last fifty years to actually underwrite the deals of the current economy. There isn't even enough gold and silver in the whole world right now if it included available jewelry to convert the current global economy to a fixed standard. This is just a ploy to make these items more precious in people's minds but in fact they are only useful in smaller economies.

For example if the current US budget of one trillion dollars were expressed at 300$ per ounce of gold this would represent roughly 104,167 TONS of gold per year to be distributed throughout the economy just by the government. A serious analysis of GNP would show that the actually size of the economy is substantially larger than that, attempting to return to the fiction of a gold/silver economy would cripple any modern society that attempted it.

I despise what cars are doing to my world and to my country, as the addiction is killing us and all life on earth with us but returning to a gold/silver standard would be like telling everyone to go back to horses and buggies. This is not a solution though it is one possible outcome of the failure to advance. I prefer creativity and the idea that knowledge and understanding are true wealth.

Please step back instead for a moment and define a "money free society?"