• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

PEA+Deprenyl log


  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

#1 bgwithadd

  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 07 February 2009 - 12:44 AM


I was skeptical of Deprenyl, and thought of it more as an antioxidant/antiaging drug, but I have found that it seems very helpful in other ways, as well. I feel a lot of what I get from adderall, except without a lot of the bad side effects and apparently there's no issues with tolerance and obviously none with addiction. I also don't get the weird waves of drowsiness when it kicks in or stops - there's no ups and downs, it's just like I am a normal person or at least closer to normal than usual.

Since deprenyl will boost the effectiveness and halflife of PEA, I'm going to start supplementing with it. Not to try to get a buzz, but to try to see if it's possible to get a permanent cure for ADD and depression using just deprenyl and ADD.

I'm taking 20mg of deprenyl a day, and already I've dropped my wellbutrin and st john's wort because I don't think I need them any more. I think I will start off slow with maybe 50 or 100mg of PEA today. In some studies they used around 200mg of PEA with 30mg of deprenyl and had remarkable effects on patients with treatment resistant depression (and in fact, I feel like my depression was basically instantly cured already), so I am pretty sure that these levels will be a safe starting point. They might even be too low to notice any difference. I will report back my findings as I go and try to see if I can come up with a good supplementing system that's safe, effective, and doesn't require impractical things like dosing every 11 minutes like some cokehead.

#2 3VeRL0ng

  • Guest
  • 66 posts
  • 1
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 07 February 2009 - 01:42 AM

Definitely would like to see how this turns out for you bg. I had amazing results with PEA in the past (as I mentioned in a recent post) but because of it's remarkably low length in half-life, it was a mystery to me as to how (if even possible) to expand it. This may not fully relate to your topic, but lately I've been noticing how a green-powdered, superfood supp. that I use called Pure Synergy seems to potentiate the effects of fish oil whenever I use the two in the same day (I don't necessarily have to use them in conjunction to notice this). But the effect(s) seem much more noticeable to me, and actually it appears to last hell of a lot longer than if I had taken it alone (the fish oil that is). I'm assuming it has something to do with some of the specific herbal extracts in Pure Synergy. But was there ever any other "potentiated" effects you've ever noticed before by combining one med/supp. with another, besides Dep. and PEA?

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 StrangeAeons

  • Guest, F@H
  • 732 posts
  • 6
  • Location:Indiana

Posted 07 February 2009 - 02:02 AM

at 20mg, you're at the cusp of losing MAO-B selectivity. I've also already seen this scenario on the forums before (Sel. + PEA). You may well be on your way to sustained PEA, as in pulseless electrical activity. I hope you're taking your blood pressure on a regular basis and monitoring your tyramine intake. Please be careful.
  • like x 3

#4 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 07 February 2009 - 05:31 AM

Ok, 100mg was PLENTY, but not too much. I took it at 5pm and just now at 920 I feel like it's reaching its peak.

MAO-A inhibition should not be an issue. In everything I've seen, even massive overdose levels of deprenyl only bound 40% of the MAO-A. Blood pressure, 119/79. It seems to be 20-30mg is where the start is, but only truly massive doses would seem to cause serious MAO-A inhibition. If I went higher with deprenyl I really don't think I'd need anything else, anyway, but it would be a bit expensive to take 60 mg a day (the dose used when using it as an antidepressant).

So far, my mood is great. I'm not sure if I would call it euphoria but I feel like a million bucks. Basically, I feel like I am on adderall right now...except, even more of a naturalness to it. I don't feel the tiniest bit twitchy or speedy, but deeply relaxed yet completely alert at the same time. I have depression problems, but since trying deprenyl they were basically instantly gone.

I guess the big question is how well I'll do with motivation and concentration, since those are the ultimate reasons I am taking this stuff. If I can get things done even though I am not taking adderall or wellbutrin I will be pretty happy. It feels like I have the same effects, but I guess we'll have to see. I am also taking a bit of care and editing this post, which is usually only something I do when I have ADD meds in effect, so I am pretty hopeful.

#5 Guacamolium

  • Guest
  • 747 posts
  • 30
  • Location:Tahoe

Posted 07 February 2009 - 04:19 PM

I would personally take that approach differently. I would back off of the Deprenyl a bit, and take DLPA in small amounts (less than 700mg) to support PEA, but still include some Deprenyl to achieve the results (or try to) that you do. I have trouble staying on top of being consciously aware of tyramine-rich foods - and I happen to have a penchant for most of them. I like how you are approaching the PEA issue to a degree, and you've sparked curiosity in me to try the attempt - just with less Deprenyl.

#6 FunkOdyssey

  • Guest
  • 3,443 posts
  • 165
  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 07 February 2009 - 09:14 PM

guess the big question is how well I'll do with motivation and concentration, since those are the ultimate reasons I am taking this stuff.


The big question IMHO is how long will this honeymoon period last, how will the end manifest itself, and how will you feel when you discontinue the drug?

#7 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 07 February 2009 - 10:07 PM

Well, my idea is to keep it below the level of euphoria. The more I read, the more it seems that dopamine itself is what causes neurotoxicity when it comes to stimulants like amphetamines and ecstasy.

Edited by bgwithadd, 07 February 2009 - 10:27 PM.


#8 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 07 February 2009 - 10:23 PM

I would personally take that approach differently. I would back off of the Deprenyl a bit, and take DLPA in small amounts (less than 700mg) to support PEA, but still include some Deprenyl to achieve the results (or try to) that you do. I have trouble staying on top of being consciously aware of tyramine-rich foods - and I happen to have a penchant for most of them. I like how you are approaching the PEA issue to a degree, and you've sparked curiosity in me to try the attempt - just with less Deprenyl.


Everything needed to build PEA is neurotoxic. All the phenylalanines have neurotoxic metabolites. They go out of control in people who don't metabolise them fast and cause mental retardation, but like glutamate, it's a stupid idea to supplement with phenylalanine long term even if you have a healthy BBB and healthy ability to metabolize them.

Your body just isn't designed to handle large amounts of it. From what I've read, many of the amino acids people supp with are neurotoxic. I think DLPA is fine, but DLPA is going to make lots of NE and DA, not PEA. Neither of those are necessarily a good thing to be making, especially when you are using stimulants of some kind.

Edited by bgwithadd, 07 February 2009 - 10:27 PM.

  • like x 1

#9 Guacamolium

  • Guest
  • 747 posts
  • 30
  • Location:Tahoe

Posted 08 February 2009 - 01:35 AM

I would personally take that approach differently. I would back off of the Deprenyl a bit, and take DLPA in small amounts (less than 700mg) to support PEA, but still include some Deprenyl to achieve the results (or try to) that you do. I have trouble staying on top of being consciously aware of tyramine-rich foods - and I happen to have a penchant for most of them. I like how you are approaching the PEA issue to a degree, and you've sparked curiosity in me to try the attempt - just with less Deprenyl.


Everything needed to build PEA is neurotoxic. All the phenylalanines have neurotoxic metabolites. They go out of control in people who don't metabolise them fast and cause mental retardation, but like glutamate, it's a stupid idea to supplement with phenylalanine long term even if you have a healthy BBB and healthy ability to metabolize them.

Your body just isn't designed to handle large amounts of it. From what I've read, many of the amino acids people supp with are neurotoxic. I think DLPA is fine, but DLPA is going to make lots of NE and DA, not PEA. Neither of those are necessarily a good thing to be making, especially when you are using stimulants of some kind.


It doesn't take large amounts to boost PEA, hence why I suggested small amounts. Though most L-PA in the liver converts to tyrosine which then boosts DA and NE, the rest of it goes on to be directly decarboxylated into PEA. [1]

The only research I found addressing the neurotoxicity issues were in context of PKU's, teratogenesis, and Alzheimer patients - which happened to include PEA with the group of neurotoxins you mentioned. I was unable to pull up research backing a claim I found about disabled decision-making abilities in healthy adults, but looking over the metabolism I can see how neurotoxicity is possible, and given the assumption that supplemental phenylalanine is neurotoxic when dominantly flooding the bloodstream - the simple remedy is to take it with meals, so long as the meals have an adequate amount of protein - which they should anyway.

1. Janssen PA, Leysen JE, Megens AA, Awouters FH. Does phenylethylamine act as an
endogenous amphetamine in some patients? Int J Neuropsychopharmcol 1999 Sep; 2(3):229-240


#10 OneScrewLoose

  • Guest
  • 2,372 posts
  • 50
  • Location:California
  • NO

Posted 08 February 2009 - 09:42 AM

Be really, really, really careful with this. Every step of the way.

#11 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 09 February 2009 - 05:52 PM

If anything my blood pressure keeps going down. 110/68 earlier today, as opposed to 130/85 while still on wellbutrin last week.

I'm sure if I took higher doses I could manage to push my bp up, but that is not my goal. I am not pumping anything up into the realm of full blown euphoria, but I do feel like anxiety and depression are basically completely eliminated, and I believe that is likely what's causing the difference in blood pressure. I have ADD + depression, so I am thinking I likely have lower than normal PEA. Other people might get more effect from what I am doing.

The first night I fell asleep for about ten hours, the deepest sleep I can remember. I did not wake up feeling bad, though, but in a great mood. It seems I don't get quite so much effect as I did from that first dose and since then I have been taking 100mg twice a day. It seems to last about 6 hours maybe before it starts to wear off. I don't feel any comedown or negative feelings whatsoever. With adderall, I feel fine when I take it, and no comedown, but taking it seems quite hard on my body. Lot's of vasoconstriction especially - I get super cold hands and feet. Also, sometimes I wake up and feel like I've been hit by a mac truck. This is not as abusive doses, either, just my normal 20mg per day (which I am not taking for now).

My sleep has been messed up for several weeks, which has always been an issue with me. I have consciously decided to stay up all night to sort things out and am not having trouble doing that (witht he help of caffeine). I don't think the PEA or deprenyl does anything regarding sleep for me, though. With adderall, I feel super calm, but at the same time I just won't sleep while it's in my system. I will always find something I need to do or whatever until it wears off after maybe 6 hours, then I can often feel my mind kind of grind to a halt if I am really tired, and then I just drop like a sack of potatoes into bed. These are usually the times I wake up and feel like I have been beaten half to death in the night.

I am not so sure if it gives me any big boost in concentration. It seems to sort of, but adderall is better in this respect. PEA is more feelgood-ish, and it really eliminates my depression completely. Apparently the depression effect is hit and miss and usually depends on the sort of depression you have - most likely in some people they just don't have enough natural PEA in their system. Low average PEA levels (one tenth as much) are found in people with ADD and some forms of depression, and much high levels are found in schizophrenics (they are likely overstimulated from all the PEA running throught heir system). For some people deprenyl or PEA cause instant and permanent (so long as treatment lasts) alleviation of all depressive symptoms. The type it seems effective with is "atypical" depression. This means depression where you tend to be lethargic and sleep and eat a lot. Ironcially, atypical depression is the most common kind, and about 60% of people have it...which is coincidentally the percentage of people who respond well to deprenyl as an antidepressant.

This seems to be the case for me. I have been on heavy doses of several antidepressive substances or drugs for years with only limited results. Normally, if I quit taking the st john's wort (at insanely high doses) or the wellbutrin, even one day later I would be depressed like crazy and kind of listless. If I took an SSRI it would prop me up but in a very artificial kind of way that was not very pleasant. Adderall would kill my depression most of the time, but sometimes it would make me super obsess on it instead. This time I quit both of them before starting deprenyl (so as not to kill myself) and I don't have the slightest hint of it.

I am also slightly colorblind, but this issue seems to be gone now. I can notice things much easier such as dirt on the floor. The second part is the same on adderall, an anti-ADD effect, but the newfound colors is a bizarre and amazing thing to behold. I do a lot of 3D artwork and it seems that I suddenly have a much better handle on how things should look and I can now make faces that look more human instead of all looking kind of the same. I think due to basic increase in visual acuity and perception.

As far as the idea of taking dlpa or phenalalanine goes, I still think it's a bad idea. With PEA, the good thing about it is that it IS a trace amine. You only need minute quantities to have a vast effect on you. That's not really a bad thing because you have much less of the stuff rollig around in your brain. If I take that other shit then to build up to the same PEA levels I will have to have grams of it, and all of them have more effects than building PEA - effects I really don't want or need. PEA fulfills the same roles as norepinephrine when it comes to attention and mood by acting as a DAT transporter and doing a few other things.

Basically, NE is a shitty way to do things and has a host of very bad physiological effects that go along with its few good effects, and DA especially is an unwanted side effect. People get the idea that DA increases are how stims work, how they do what they do, but in reality they are merely an unwanted side effect. I know this goes against the standard (obviously flawed) belief that the brain is like a car battery and you just pour in the right levels of ingredients to get the right output. However, I'm absolutely sure that is a dramatic oversimplification and basically complete bullshit.

I've always had that belief simply because I could experimentally see it is not so in myself. I can bomb myself with DA or NE with great ease, but doing this is largely a waste of time (especially with DA). Of course some jackass with a briefcase full of dangerous chemicals does not a scientist make, but recent scientific findings have borne this out and given more to it than just unsupported opinion. It appears more and more that the most common neurotransmitters are just crude hammerblows and in many cases simply blinds to what's really happening. Otherwise someone could just take a lot of 5htp orally and be instantly cured of depression for at least a little while. Or they could take a bunch of mucuna pruriens and cure their ADD. Anyone who's supplemented with either knows their effects are minimal, if even measurable. I can take mucuna pruriens til my heart rate gets dangerously high but it doesn't do a damned thing for my ADD. 5htp maybe might help a tiny bit but the most it seems to do is make me very slightly sleepy.

It appears now that antidepressants affect learning and neurogenesis. Perhaps they work by helping the brain to go beyond learned helplessness response which is intrinsic to most forms of depression, but however they work it seems that it is a much different mechanism than has previously been believed. Which absolutely makes sense, otherwise antidepressants would be pretty much interchangeable, with just slightly different side effect profiles. However, we know that's not the case, and some people fail to respond to extremely similar SSRIs.

It's recently been discovered that the beneficial effects of norepinephrine are due to binding to the HCN channel to signal prefrontal cortex to stop manufacturing cAMP, which shuts down the prefrontal cortex in times of stress. I can only speculate the reason for this is to allow the mind to enter into more emotional/fight or flight thinking to deal with stressful situations - let instinct take over and beat your cro magnon era enemy with a bone instead of trying to reason with him, or perhaps shut down and run and hide for weeks after your village got burned down in a fire. The other beneficial effect of amphetamines seems to be in reversing the DAT transporter. This actually signals the dopamine to DO something, basically.

As a neuromodulator, PEA enhances the action of the other transmitters and the DAT reversal is one mechanism it uses to accomplish this. You coud say that amphetamines are, by dumb luck, doing what PEA is supposed to be doing anyway, or at least part of it. The great thing is that it does all this without pumping your brain full of tons of extra neurotransmitters. It also has the same effects on GABA system that it does with DA and NE. That means that it's very unlikely you would ever get massive aggression or other unbalanced effects on PEA like some people can get.

So, as you can tell, I'm really liking it so far. I also don't think there's any danger whatsoever. At least, not so long as you are being careful with your dosing and using common sense. Of course, I have a kg of PEA and if I ever mess up and mistake it for ALCAR and scoop 2g into a cup and chug it down that could be extremely bad. I am thinking I might do something like cut it with something of similar density. Maybe glutamine? I'm not sure I want to have very much glutamine intake, though (if any). I suppose ALCAR might be ok, but I don;t want to go crazy with that. I'd use inositol but I don't think it would mix very well.

The jury's still out on how well it works for motivation, but I am getting work done, so I am hopeful. For depression and social anxiety (or anxiety of any kind) it's simply incredible. I am not sure that other people would get this effect, though. I believe I am probably low in PEA and have a better reaction than many might. Also, some who have more of it naturally might have serious reactions at the doses I am taking, so anyone trying this at home is advised to be extremely careful.

If you're going to use deprenyl with PEA, then it's probably better to stabilize your dose for at least a week before starting the PEA and then work up slowly to see what dose works for you without causing any bad side effects.
  • like x 1
  • Good Point x 1

#12 Cuil

  • Guest
  • 56 posts
  • 1

Posted 10 February 2009 - 12:01 AM

I remember a few years ago I wrote a paper for my botany class on the psychedelic vine ayahuasca. This is what got me interested in mao-b inhibitors (ayahusca has mao-a, mao-b, and ssri properties). So I ordered deprenyl and I sometimes combined with dlpa. My problem with depreny is that when I stopped taking it, I got depressed and I ended up on a rough path for a while; it could have been other variables in my life, but I feel that there is a backswing effect with the inhibition of the mao-b enzime. It could also be that I was taking ridiculous amounts of it sometimes (between 30-40 mg a day). I don't know man, just be careful because I learned that tampering with your brain usually means that you are tampering with your path in life.

#13 Duke

  • Guest
  • 51 posts
  • 0

Posted 10 February 2009 - 12:38 AM

^ Or he can live with depression/ADD his entire life.

The safety profile of deprenyl is well established. It is not some arcane psychedelic. Your temporary lapse was likely just another common fallout of discountinuing one of many drugs that alter brain chemistry, e.g. SSRIs and look how many scripts are written for those across the world!

@bg

Where are you purchasing your deprenyl (if online)? Liquid or tablet form? Thanks

And good to hear you're getting results, I myself have seen many benefits from deprenyl. Interestingly in contrast with you, one of them being a very noticeable boost in motivation.

Edited by Duke, 10 February 2009 - 12:43 AM.


#14 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 10 February 2009 - 04:44 AM

"Or he can live with depression/ADD his entire life."

Yeah, that's exactly it. Or more like I can take a plethora of completely insane drugs the rest of my life or just take deprenyl and a small amount of PEA each day and have no negative side effects whatsoever. I don't seriously see how anyone can think taking wellbutrin, tons of sjw or ssris, and amphetamines every single day I want to do more than cruise the internet for the rest of my life is a better option. Not to mention more and more drugs as time goes by and I have to deal with the side effects of the current drugs. IE something to keep my penis functioning and keep my skin from sloughing off. I've already tossed the antidepressants so for that alone it's worthwhile even if I have to take half a dozen deprenyl every day.

I got my current deprenyl from antiaging systems. I have more on the way from pharma-orders.com but it looks like I will be running out before it gets here. I just ordered 760 bucks worth of stuff from vitaspace. If it is good quality I will try to see if he can provide deprenyl pharmaceutical grade powder. He seems capable of obtaining about anything, including many things I'd pretty much given up on finding in bulk.

#15 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 10 February 2009 - 06:51 PM

The whole 'careful' part should be reiterated. If I took a spoonful of the wrong size I think it would kill me.

I took 100mg of PEA at 7am and now another 100mg at 1030pm. My blood pressure was great, but now it's 140/87 and my heartrate is 60 bpm, which is low for me (usually 80). Taking BP every 5 minutes now. If bpm gets down to 50 or bp exceeds 170 or 100 I am calling 911.

It's sort of common, I guess, to have that reaction. It was pushing down my BP until a certain threshold, then shooting it up. Adderall is the same way because it reduces anxiety and also it is a sort of modulation effect, some might be good for bp but eventually enough will shoot anyone's bp up.

As for feeling, seems much less now than before. I feel much less of the social effect and more of a sort of focused effect. Seems very similar to adderall int hat you usually feel goofy and euphoric the first few times.

I'm stopping this experiment for now (assuming I don't stroke out shortly). I want to get my meds and supplements completely stable before doing something like this, and if I try agin it will be even smaller PEA doses. I have hope for this as a route to medication, but I believe I might be better off with simply taking high levels of deprenyl to get some of the same effect. Better yet would be an emsam patch but they cost about 550 bucks per month.

Edited by bgwithadd, 10 February 2009 - 06:52 PM.


#16 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 10 February 2009 - 06:55 PM

bp 155/97. heart rate 55bpm. I just took some phenibut to kill the PEA, and I'm calling someone to come over to watch me. I might be going to the hospital soon. I took a bunch of kava last night. I forgot it's supposedly MAO-b, too. Maybe that is why I am suddenly getting this big reaction.

Edited by bgwithadd, 10 February 2009 - 06:56 PM.


#17 Cuil

  • Guest
  • 56 posts
  • 1

Posted 11 February 2009 - 07:17 AM

bp 155/97. heart rate 55bpm. I just took some phenibut to kill the PEA, and I'm calling someone to come over to watch me. I might be going to the hospital soon. I took a bunch of kava last night. I forgot it's supposedly MAO-b, too. Maybe that is why I am suddenly getting this big reaction.



Let us know how things are. I hope you are ok.

#18 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 11 February 2009 - 09:30 AM

I am feeling ok now. My bp got to 160/100, and my heart rate got down to 50. What was scary was that its onset was extremely fast. For a while I was gaining bp increases wildly fast.

But, the phenibut make it halt right away, and from there it kept going down until it hit 90/60 and then I slept on the couch for a long time.

It was very surprising to see such a different effect from one day to the next. I believe it was due to kava the night before, or maybe another herb I was trying, but either way it crept up on me even though I've used great caution. I'm not sure if I will try the PEA route again. I might go for mao-b inhibitor only from now on.

#19 Cuil

  • Guest
  • 56 posts
  • 1

Posted 11 February 2009 - 02:18 PM

I am feeling ok now. My bp got to 160/100, and my heart rate got down to 50. What was scary was that its onset was extremely fast. For a while I was gaining bp increases wildly fast.

But, the phenibut make it halt right away, and from there it kept going down until it hit 90/60 and then I slept on the couch for a long time.

It was very surprising to see such a different effect from one day to the next. I believe it was due to kava the night before, or maybe another herb I was trying, but either way it crept up on me even though I've used great caution. I'm not sure if I will try the PEA route again. I might go for mao-b inhibitor only from now on.



Kava is dangerous stuff to mix with stimulants. There are a few kavalactones that could kill you when mixed with other stimulants. I don't know if it was the kava though, because I found that kava doesn't last all that long.
  • Agree x 1

#20 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 11 February 2009 - 05:46 PM

MAOB effects don't depend on the drug itself still being in your system. If it blitzed my MAO-B it will be a week before it is mostly back to normal. That's good to know in a sense because natural MAO-B inhibition might be a cheap way to get a lot of results for ADD or depression treatment, but if using PEA it seems it's vitally important to get the dosing just right, and there's no way to do that without having measurabl, steady MAO-B levels. I might try it again some day, but for now I am too leery of it. I would have to worry every time I try a supplement or use one of the once in a while ones like kava. Might also be my deprenyl effects are just now adding up, as well.

Edited by bgwithadd, 11 February 2009 - 05:47 PM.


#21 FunkOdyssey

  • Guest
  • 3,443 posts
  • 165
  • Location:Manchester, CT USA

Posted 11 February 2009 - 06:43 PM

Pulse pressure should be 40 mm/Hg -- the roughly 60 mm/Hg that you were experiencing is very unhealthy and an independent risk factor for cardiovascular disease. It must have gone hand in hand with the bradycardia as the heart attempted to get more blood into the brain despite the slow heart rate. Definitely want to avoid it in the future.

#22 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 11 February 2009 - 08:00 PM

hmm, I did not know pulse pressure matted that much. I have been reading up a bit. I just started on guanfacince so I'm hoping my pulse pressure will drop as well as my overall bp.

#23 Mr.Bananas

  • Guest
  • 108 posts
  • 0

Posted 11 February 2009 - 08:46 PM

This seems really foolish...
Is there no other method/drug you can try?

#24 Cuil

  • Guest
  • 56 posts
  • 1

Posted 12 February 2009 - 03:04 AM

hmm, I did not know pulse pressure matted that much. I have been reading up a bit. I just started on guanfacince so I'm hoping my pulse pressure will drop as well as my overall bp.



Let us know how that goes. Did you go to a doctor to get it or is there a place online that it could be ordered from?

I have been practicing meditation for years, and although it didn't prepare me for suffering a massive bout of depression last year, my heart rate doesn't go out of control like it used to. If my life were less stressful, I am willing to bet I would get by on meditation alone with no extra chemicals. That said, I think eventually meditation can cure these problems, but it takes so long to see the results, and they usually manifest on subtle levels at first.

#25 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 12 February 2009 - 04:00 AM

I don't think you can get it online without a presciption unless you pay a ton of money. It cost 5 bucks at costco once I got it prescribed by my doctor...who'd never even heard of it before, confirming to me for the millionth time just how useless the average doctor is.

I am happy with it. Blood pressure is lower, but more importantly it has a great effect on vasodilation. I was not paying attention to pulse pressure before I started so I am not sure if it's changed much, but I think I had about the same range before - around 45 or so (43 right now).

As for concentration I'm not sure how much it helps, but it is very relaxing in a nonsedating sort of way.

#26 StrangeAeons

  • Guest, F@H
  • 732 posts
  • 6
  • Location:Indiana

Posted 12 February 2009 - 06:57 AM

Pulse pressure should be 40 mm/Hg -- the roughly 60 mm/Hg that you were experiencing is very unhealthy and an independent risk factor for cardiovascular disease. It must have gone hand in hand with the bradycardia as the heart attempted to get more blood into the brain despite the slow heart rate. Definitely want to avoid it in the future.


My training in the emergency setting says:
hypertension + bradycardia + wide pulse pressure = Cushing's reflex, i.e. head trauma, stroke, ICP spike.
  • like x 1

#27 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 12 February 2009 - 07:12 AM

Well, I am glad to get some good advice here, and have learned my lesson. I think this is actually more dangerous that any street drugs. PEA itself might be ok, but it's amazing how it goes so rapidly from no effect to euphoria to sudden death when combined with mao-b (which might be present to varying degrees in any number of herbs).

I think I will be happy enough with 20 or maybe 30mg of deprenyl. I seem to get most of the effects without the danger (though I will have to be somewhat careful of cheese, salami, etc. (which are things I avoid anyway)).

#28 shifter

  • Guest
  • 679 posts
  • 28

Posted 16 February 2009 - 03:18 AM

I have had the euphoric effect and the blood pressure to match. Normally 130/70, but shot up to 180/112. with a normal heartrate of 60odd bpm. Within a few minutes dropped it to 80/50 with a heartrate of ~140 by doing some pushups. What a rollercoaster my body must have gone through. Been there, done that, dont want to play with that again (btw I was only taking 5mg of selegiline per day).

I also found the 'euphoric' effect ended much more quickly once I got the blood pressure to lower levels. Normally the total effect of PEA can last for many hours. This was gone in 20 minutes. Perhaps the euphoria and higher blood pressure go hand in hand and you cant have one without the other? The increase in blood pressure is something you can 'feel' inside you. And I guess the sensation can be pleasureable for some.

I have not actally heard of anyone actually dying or crippling themselves from taking these together. I can see how it can happen, but have not heard any real 'bad' cases. I remember someone on here who used to take grams worth of PEA (and was also on selegiline) every 10mins to keep the euphoria effect. Swap the PEA for caffine in the amounts he took and he would have been in far worse trouble ;)

Edited by shifter, 16 February 2009 - 03:19 AM.

  • Disagree x 1

#29 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 16 February 2009 - 03:57 AM

Acutally I only got the euphoria when I had no high bp. With the high bp I felt like my brain was swimming. I think you can go pretty high with bp short term, but it's going to do a lot of not obvious damage. Then when you die ten years later no one will connect it to screwing around with PEA earlier.

I think a lot of the problem is you can't tell how much will be absorbed wih each dose, but now I am also pretty sure several herbs I take have given me extra MAO-B inhibition which is why the very small dose became like a hammer blow. I stupidly tried an even smaller dose yesterday with bad results again. If there was an easy way to judge mao-b inhibition level and to ensure a measured dose of PEA I would continue on, but I think it's just too unpredicatble and dangerous. Especially since I'm bad about remembering if I have dosed already...if I took a double dose of this or used the wrong measuring spoon, I would be done.

If only those damned emsam patches didn't cost 600 bucks a month. I suppose the pills are almost as good, but you should be able to go to a much higher dose with emsam without mao-a inhibition in the gut.

Edited by bgwithadd, 16 February 2009 - 04:09 AM.

  • Good Point x 1

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#30 bgwithadd

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 820 posts
  • 16

Posted 16 February 2009 - 08:06 AM

Ah, great. My blood pressure is 137/87.

No PEA today so I am wondering what the hell is going on. I took 15mg of adderall total today, and 5mg of deprenyl. I was very careful when starting them both and had no bp surge before even when I was on 20mg of deprenyl with 20mg of adderall.

I discontinued the cat's claw and fo-ti, and anyway MAO-B plus adderall shouldn't really cause hypertension. I did try some avena sativa today, 1.5g. Maybe that is the problem?

My new additions lately that I've taken today are celery seed, horse chestnut and avena sativa. I suppose they could be the problem, but I believed all these to be relatively inert/mild and I took only small doses of the celery and avena sativa. I also started on the guanfacine a few days ago and that's around when the BP spikes started, but it seems to make my BP go DOWN, not up - which is its supposed job. Could adderall + guanfacine have this reaction? Seems odd, as it's a somewhat common treatment to prescribe them together.

Could it be MAO-A hypertensive reaction? I know a lot of supplements are MAO-A inhibitors and adding them all up might be causing issues. I did eat some cheese tonight. Anyone know how long cheese reaction lasts? Last night it was basically all night long, and I did have cheese then, too. If anyone has any idea, let me know. I think it did seem to start right after I ate. All day long my bp has been around 115/75.

Could it be panic attacks? I don't feel super anxious, but panic attacks usually seem physical, not mental.

I hate to go to the doctor and usually they are not that useful if you aren't bleeding or in cardiac arrest, especially when it comes to supplement interactions. I guess I will have to stop everything and add it all back one at a time.... Up until now I have been doing well with everything, but this is very worrying.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users