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Documentary movie: "Bigger, Stronger, Faster*"


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#1 Live Forever

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 02:30 AM


Has anyone here seen the documentary, "Bigger, Stronger, Faster*" ?

Most of it is on performance enhancing drugs for athletes (steroids, HGH, etc.), but they do focus a section of the documentary on the supplement industry as a whole and the problems that it has. (the lack of accountability and oversight, in the US at least, and why that is the case) They also talk about the other types of enhancements that people use, and why they use them. (Adderall, beta-blockers, various amphetamines, etc. etc. for Air Force pilots, musical performances, students studying for tests, etc.)

Also, in reference to HGH and steroids and whatnot, they spend a bit of time looking at how people get them from various "anti-aging" doctors and other sources.

Anyway, it was pretty interesting. I'd recommend giving it a look for anyone that has not seen it.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1151309/
http://en.wikipedia....ronger,_Faster*


On Google vids:

http://video.google....591054851050035

Edited by Live Forever, 15 February 2009 - 08:23 AM.


#2 Shepard

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 02:54 AM

It's a good flick.

The oldest brother in it died recently while in a rehab clinic.

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#3 Live Forever

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 05:05 AM

It's a good flick.

The oldest brother in it died recently while in a rehab clinic.

I wonder if it was related to steroids or something else? They seem to make a pretty convincing case in the movie that if used responsibly, most of the risks are fairly minimal.

#4 Shepard

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 01:31 PM

I'm unsure what sort of rehab it was, but I don't think anyone has ever had to go to rehab for anabolics. I'd be betting on some of the other things he mentioned abusing.

#5 chrisp2

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 04:07 PM

I'm unsure what sort of rehab it was, but I don't think anyone has ever had to go to rehab for anabolics. I'd be betting on some of the other things he mentioned abusing.


It could have been a psychological addiction to anabolics.

Or, as a friend of mine was once telling me about one of her ex-bf's... Anabolic abusers often take other drugs to help them get through the "lows" or something... I don't remember the entire story. He ended up dying too, heart attack or OD or something.

#6 Shepard

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 09:21 PM

This guy had a lot of problems that were evident in the flick. I'd be surprised if anabolics had anything to do with his death, psychological or otherwise.

#7 spacetime

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 09:26 PM

I recall hearing about his passing but never heard of a cause, lots of speculation though. You could see how distraught he was in the film and how he was heavily burdened by certain issues. Can steroids alone drive one to suicide?(Note: I'm not implying that was the case here but it's worth discussing nonetheless.) It seems they may certainly be a catalyst but there are always underlying conditions. Even the high school baseball, Houton or whatever his name was, who committed suicide after cessation of steroids. His father and a few doctors like to attribute it to steroid usage but of course cannot prove such. But many do view steroids as a solution to their problem(s) and when they fail in their endeavors then it does seem despression sets in as the "miracle drug" did not work. Again, I'm not stating this is the case in either of the aforementioned situations, though it seems likely in the latter case. Steroids do have merit especially when used responsibly but under certain conditions or in certain individuals they can exacerbate underlying conditions and are thus vilified as a result.

#8 Shepard

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 09:39 PM

Even the high school baseball, Houton or whatever his name was, who committed suicide after cessation of steroids. His father and a few doctors like to attribute it to steroid usage but of course cannot prove such.


If you're talking about the kid in the movie, they blamed it on steroid abuse and overlooked the fact that the kid was on anti-depressants. Hmm, which of those has increased suicide rates as a documented side effect?

#9 bgwithadd

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 12:02 AM

Screwing with your hormones is a serious problem. It's a lot worse than 'normal' drug use in my opinion. When you use steroids for muscle growth to get real results you need to pump your levels of hormones up by 10 or even 50 times the norm. The psychological effects of that can be (and usually are) astounding. When you stop, then your hormone levels plummet down to nothing, which is as bad or worse than the hormonal overload.

Roid rage is not a joke, but the norm. So is anxiety, depression, and all kinds of other mental problems. Which of course leads to using a plethora of other drugs, and due to being unbalanced that drug use is hardly going to be simply therapeutic for most of them.

I find these clowns to be annoying because they are the reason that responsible people have so much trouble getting treatment for things like ADD or getting responsible levels of HGH or other hormone treatment for life extension and antiaging problems.

I don't really care what they do to themselves (though often the rage turns to violence and I have fought several raging roidheads in the past (and beat their asses, as I have never had a need for steroids)), but it's this kind of crap that makes it hard for people who are responsible to get anything besides an SSRI or antibiotic out of a doctor.
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#10 Shepard

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 12:15 AM

When you use steroids for muscle growth to get real results you need to pump your levels of hormones up by 10 or even 50 times the norm.


Really? Care to source that one?

When you stop, then your hormone levels plummet down to nothing, which is as bad or worse than the hormonal overload.


The answer is to be like Louie Simmons and just don't stop. Or, don't be a moron and have a decent PCT protocol to maintain semi-proper hormonal ratios.

Roid rage is not a joke, but the norm. So is anxiety, depression, and all kinds of other mental problems. Which of course leads to using a plethora of other drugs, and due to being unbalanced that drug use is hardly going to be simply therapeutic for most of them.


I hear it gives you the reefer madness.
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#11 bgwithadd

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 01:03 AM

When you use steroids for muscle growth to get real results you need to pump your levels of hormones up by 10 or even 50 times the norm.


Really? Care to source that one?

When you stop, then your hormone levels plummet down to nothing, which is as bad or worse than the hormonal overload.


The answer is to be like Louie Simmons and just don't stop. Or, don't be a moron and have a decent PCT protocol to maintain semi-proper hormonal ratios.

Roid rage is not a joke, but the norm. So is anxiety, depression, and all kinds of other mental problems. Which of course leads to using a plethora of other drugs, and due to being unbalanced that drug use is hardly going to be simply therapeutic for most of them.


I hear it gives you the reefer madness.


1. I'm not sure if saying google.com or simply the word science would be more pithy so take your pick. There's a huge spike in hormone levels from shooting that dwarfs your day to day levels, but that should be sort of obvious, and I don't know how to make the obvious more obvious. Different drugs work differently, but I think it's safe to say all of them have massive effects on your system.

2. This goes along with 1. You can't just 'not stop'. You have to go in cycles to get fast results without getting horrific side effects. If you don't know this I don't see how you can be a steroids user, and if you're not I don't see why you are so illogically defending it. I suppose you could take small doses to slightly raise your levels, but this is the realm of antiaging not of bodybuilding steroids use. It would also probably have more side effects than it was worth, though, regardless. Ive yet to see anyone even get HGH treatment who was ultimately happy with it (though I am sure they exist).

3. You also can't 'maintain semi-proper hormone ratios'. I guess that depends what definition you use, but with any reasonable definition no you can't do that from home. You can't even really supplement hormones with a doctor's help without excessive testing to keep things balanced, let alone on your own. The people doing this crap are mostly high school football retards, not scientists.

I hear it gives you the reefer madness.

Deny it all you want, but it's more ridiculous than arguing that chronic potheads have great memories and clear thinking. Anyone is placid when they have ludes or xanax whenever they're on a cycle and everyone responds differently (and stacks vary wildly) but if you're trying to deny that roids often cause emotional/mental issues anyone who's dealt with these guys knows better. There seem to be fewer of these clowns these days but in the 80s/early 90s it was a fucking epidemic.

Blaming someone's death on an SSRI is an even bigger joke. That only happens in very narrow circumstances right when SSRIs are started, not after they've been in use, and usually not for outpatients but for semicatatonic patients who get a sudden burst of energy to do themselves in. On the other hand, spiking up your hormone levels to the moon on a daily basis for a month then having them shoot down to nothing in response is obviously completely healthy and couldn't possibly cause emotional problems.
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#12 Shepard

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 01:20 AM

Thanks for saving me time in this discussion.

#13 fatboy

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 01:29 AM

Roid rage is not a joke, but the norm. So is anxiety, depression, and all kinds of other mental problems. Which of course leads to using a plethora of other drugs, and due to being unbalanced that drug use is hardly going to be simply therapeutic for most of them.


Damn. I had all of these problems before I started TRT. Got rid of all of them (and the associated meds) after a couple of months on Androgel. But now that you've enlightened me, guess I'll quit the testosterone and go back to the Welbutrin, Cialis, Viagra, Lunesta, and Temazepam. Thanks.

You can't even really supplement hormones with a doctor's help without excessive testing to keep things balanced, let alone on your own.


I'll let my doctor know that you think my lab work needs to be excessive in order to keep things balanced. I'm sure my insurance company will appreciate it. Thanks again.

#14 bgwithadd

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 01:46 AM

http://www.deadivers...nals/index.html

Sorry, I was wrong. It's not 10-50 times, but 10-100 times. If you have 10-100 times the normal level of testosterone, how can your hormones possibly be balanced?

Sorry, but there's strong clinical support for every single thing I have said.

@fatboy - Your case just shows that playing with hormones can have a huge effect on your mood. You have most likely permanently changed your hormone levels. Changing things at random is not going to benefit most people, but you apparently got lucky.

#15 Shepard

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 01:57 AM

"Balance hormone" levels, compared to the physiological normal range, would not happen on-cycle. That's kind of the idea.

Without references, that link doesn't hold up. Even if it had references, that data doesn't back this assertion:

When you use steroids for muscle growth to get real results you need to pump your levels of hormones up by 10 or even 50 times the norm.


Do professional IFBB pros use grams of test per week? The odds are close to "absolutely", but that still doesn't mean anything as far as your above statement.

#16 fatboy

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 02:10 AM

@fatboy - Your case just shows that playing with hormones can have a huge effect on your mood. You have most likely permanently changed your hormone levels.


No, I haven't. Everyday I temporarily change my hormone profile from having the testosterone levels of a pre-pubescent girl to that of a normal man. If I stop taking the medicine my testosterone level will rapidly return to the same level it was at the time of the hypogonadal diagnosis. It would be nice if I could permanently change my testosterone level so as to not need TRT, but alas, my doc says he is not aware of any surgeons performing testicular transplants at this time. (Not much of a surprise, what with willing donors being particularly hard to find and all.)

Changing things at random is not going to benefit most people, but you apparently got lucky.


If you mean by being born in a technological age where TRT is possible, then yes, I apparently got lucky. And I'm not sure how you got the mistaken idea that I was changing anything at all at random?

When you use steroids for muscle growth to get real results you need to pump your levels of hormones up by 10 or even 50 times the norm.


Bullshit. I'm getting "real results" in muscle growth just by bringing my hormones up to normal levels.

Edited by fatboy, 15 February 2009 - 02:13 AM.


#17 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 02:13 AM

http://www.deadivers...nals/index.html

Sorry, I was wrong. It's not 10-50 times, but 10-100 times. If you have 10-100 times the normal level of testosterone, how can your hormones possibly be balanced?

Sorry, but there's strong clinical support for every single thing I have said.

@fatboy - Your case just shows that playing with hormones can have a huge effect on your mood. You have most likely permanently changed your hormone levels. Changing things at random is not going to benefit most people, but you apparently got lucky.


Got lucky, lol.

Because doctor-mediated trt is almost always bad...

...jesus christ what's wrong with you

#18 bgwithadd

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 02:32 AM

@fatboy - Your case just shows that playing with hormones can have a huge effect on your mood. You have most likely permanently changed your hormone levels.


No, I haven't. Everyday I temporarily change my hormone profile from having the testosterone levels of a pre-pubescent girl to that of a normal man. If I stop taking the medicine my testosterone level will rapidly return to the same level it was at the time of the hypogonadal diagnosis. It would be nice if I could permanently change my testosterone level so as to not need TRT, but alas, my doc says he is not aware of any surgeons performing testicular transplants at this time. (Not much of a surprise, what with willing donors being particularly hard to find and all.)

Changing things at random is not going to benefit most people, but you apparently got lucky.


If you mean by being born in a technological age where TRT is possible, then yes, I apparently got lucky. And I'm not sure how you got the mistaken idea that I was changing anything at all at random?

When you use steroids for muscle growth to get real results you need to pump your levels of hormones up by 10 or even 50 times the norm.


Bullshit. I'm getting "real results" in muscle growth just by bringing my hormones up to normal levels.


I just skimmed your first post but if it's doctor prescribed why are you even posting? I am talking about steroids abuse, not normal treatment levels. Even normal hormone replacement is tricky, though.

Maybe I have misspoken somehow but what's the obsession on a 'link' that bodybuilders take way more than the normal amount naturally present in the body? Is that something where a link even makes sense? That's kind of the definition of abuse. I know many people who've used steroids, and those are the doses you need to get massive muscle growth. I guess you could take less for a longer time, but you would not get the same results and you'd probably still get some side effects.

#19 Live Forever

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 03:50 AM

Roid rage is not a joke, but the norm.

They presented evidence in the movie that only 5 out of 100 people (5%) experience something that is traditionally termed as "roid rage".


I just skimmed your first post but if it's doctor prescribed why are you even posting? I am talking about steroids abuse, not normal treatment levels.

They also made the point in the film that loads of people get prescriptions from doctors through the mail or whatever. The guy in the film went to a chiropractor (who then passed the results on to a doctor who could prescribe the steroids) who tested his blood and said his levels were low, but since there is no accepted standard for low levels, it is basically a judgement call for the doctor, and certain doctors will always say the levels are low. I am not saying that is what anyone in this thread did or anything like that, just that having a doctor's prescription is not always that clear cut as to whether they are needed or not.

Edited by Live Forever, 15 February 2009 - 03:56 AM.


#20 neogenic

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 04:32 AM

His brother, Mad Dog, died of heavy alcohol and drug abuse. The rehab was for that, not really the steroids. He was using a number of street drugs and drinking very hard. Almost suicidally. You can make an indirect argument for steroids, but you could make that argument about stressful jobs, bad relationships, etc.

The documentary is great. And the insanity around steroids being demonized is laughable. Of all places a Life Extension Board should be up in arms against HRT being villainized for men.

It's silly. The baseball stuff with the federal government...God, in a recession no less, Michael Phelps with pot...it's all just stupid. Nearly all top level athletes and aspiring athletes use somethings. Intranasal steroids for psychological purposes, cocaine in the mouth for boxers, drugs to slow the heart rate for shooters and archers, GH for recovery time, EPO for cyclists...

What makes using modafinil any different than doing testosterone or GH? Especially if both are taken in "therapeutic doses". If an athlete that's 42 wants to recover like he's 22 and return his "levels" to that of what he had once previously...that no only is OK with me, its commendable for the sport and doing what is healthy, not harmful. You can argue about supraphysiologic doses, but having just gone out to dinner with Jay Cutler a few nights ago, he was in better health and ate cleaner than everyone at the table. He also was kind, humble and gracious. The stereotypes are crap.

#21 Live Forever

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 04:44 AM

I like when they showed the genetically modified cow with all the muscles. When they perfect that type of thing in humans, there will be no way to test for it in athletes anyway, because the mutation causing the increased muscle mass could have occurred naturally.

#22 Shepard

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 07:09 AM

but having just gone out to dinner with Jay Cutler a few nights ago


Fish and a rice cake?

#23 simon007

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 08:16 AM

but having just gone out to dinner with Jay Cutler a few nights ago


Fish and a rice cake?



Here's a link for anyone who's interested

http://video.google....591054851050035

#24 Live Forever

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 05:07 AM

but having just gone out to dinner with Jay Cutler a few nights ago


Fish and a rice cake?



Here's a link for anyone who's interested

http://video.google....591054851050035

Cool, I embedded it in the first post for future viewers of the thread.

#25 neogenic

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 05:17 PM

but having just gone out to dinner with Jay Cutler a few nights ago


Fish and a rice cake?

Actually, that's very close. It was at a sushi restaurant. He didn't eat too much carbs (e.g. rice), but ate vegetables and lean protein sources.

#26 fatboy

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 07:23 PM

I just skimmed your first post but if it's doctor prescribed why are you even posting? I am talking about steroids abuse, not normal treatment levels.


No offense intended. The only reason I posted is because your posts focused primarily on the potential for abuse. The problem I have is that when legislators focus on the potential for abuse, schedule III (or even OTC) drugs can suddenly, miraculously, overnight, with the sweep of a pen and despite all scientific evidence, become schedule I drugs.

If that happens I am screwed. My only choice will be to move to Costa Rica and I am still a minimum of 10 years away from retirement.

#27 Live Forever

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 09:25 PM

It is on YouTube for anyone that doesn't want to watch the google vids version:

Part 1 of 11 (you can follow all the links to watch all 11 parts if you want)

#28 Matt

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Posted 21 March 2009 - 09:50 PM

I missed this one, thanks for sharing!

#29 TianZi

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 10:36 AM

Roid rage is not a joke, but the norm.


Thought I'd comment on this. During my sophomore year at UVA, I became seriously ill and ultimately developed bronchitis, then pneumonia and was hospitalized. For some reason, I did not respond to the drugs I was given and my condition continued to worsen. Finally I was given anabolic steroids and my condition rapidly improved. At the time I was released from the hospital I was instructed to continue taking the steroids in a decreasing dose (10 pills the first day, 9 the next, then 8, etc.). I was warned by the physician that I might suffer serious serious negative psychological side effects such as "extreme" mood swings and maybe worse.

Within days, I wasn't experiencing mood swings so much as existing in a constant state of hostile and more hostile. By the 5th day, I was experiencing auditory and visual hallucinations (seeing people darting behind me at the corner of my vision, etc.), accompanied by extreme paranoia. After checking with my physician, I stopped the steroid regimen on day 6 and did not finish it. The negative psychological side effects almost immediately disappeared. I'm fortunate that I was prescribed anabolic steroids when I was as it helped me beat a potentially life threatening illness, but the psychological side effects were apparently very real in my case.

Edited by TianZi, 22 March 2009 - 10:40 AM.


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#30 bgwithadd

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 12:49 PM

Ans that's with normal use. It all depends what you take and your personaity, but to take soemthing there's a poinn in for abuse as abuse it's tough to avoid serious side effetc and the web is full fo idiots screaming they can't get rid of their manboobs in the middle of an a-bomb but who won't stop their cycle anywya and are obviously insane.

Afrter you seen it yourself and came close to loser yout life a few times it makes you a believer.




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