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Saponin molecules in Bacopa


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#1 brotherx

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 03:08 PM


3 new bacopasides were isolated which showed nootropic activity (in mice).
Maybe this could be one reason why some people get effects from Bacopa and some don't.

Cheers

Alex

"Effect of Triterpenoid Saponins from Bacopa monniera on Scopolamine-Induced Memory Impairment in Mice.
Zhou Y, Peng L, Zhang WD, Kong DY.

Zhejiang Food and Drug Administration, Hangzhou, Zhejiang Province, P. R. China.

Three new saponins, bacopasides IX-XI ( 1- 3), together with their known analogues bacopaside I ( 4), bacopaside II ( 5), bacopasaponsin C ( 6), and bacopasaponsin D ( 7), were isolated from the whole plant of BACOPA MONNIERA. Compounds 3, 4, and 6 showed nootropic activity when tested in the Morris water maze test and step-down test of scopolamine-induced memory impairment in mice."

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum
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#2 NDM

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 11:52 PM

So is there any implication here that the products standardised for lower % baccosides
may actually be better?
I've been taking the AOR Bacopa - 50% baccosides A & B...
would it be better to switch to a product standardised for 20% baccosides?
Mathematically speaking, there would be a better chance that the latter would contain some of the 3 new "Bacopasides".
Any thoughts?


3 new bacopasides were isolated which showed nootropic activity (in mice).
Maybe this could be one reason why some people get effects from Bacopa and some don't.

Cheers

Alex

"Effect of Triterpenoid Saponins from Bacopa monniera on Scopolamine-Induced Memory Impairment in Mice.
Zhou Y, Peng L, Zhang WD, Kong DY.

Zhejiang Food and Drug Administration, Hangzhou, Zhejiang Province, P. R. China.

Three new saponins, bacopasides IX-XI ( 1- 3), together with their known analogues bacopaside I ( 4), bacopaside II ( 5), bacopasaponsin C ( 6), and bacopasaponsin D ( 7), were isolated from the whole plant of BACOPA MONNIERA. Compounds 3, 4, and 6 showed nootropic activity when tested in the Morris water maze test and step-down test of scopolamine-induced memory impairment in mice."

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum



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#3 Lufega

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 01:07 AM

Thanks! This explains it! I was puzzled about why a 20% formula worked awsome. I then switched to a 50% one and I lost the edge! I been stumped about this!!!

#4 brotherx

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Posted 23 February 2009 - 07:10 PM

Yes, really interesting!
I am looking forward to get the chance to explicitly test the the newly isolated bacopasaponsins. ;-)

Cheers

Alex

Thanks! This explains it! I was puzzled about why a 20% formula worked awsome. I then switched to a 50% one and I lost the edge! I been stumped about this!!!



#5 Zaxxus

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 01:54 PM

I am taking a product with 50% bacosides A&B, plus bacogenins (A3) and is the best nootropic ever, plus mood elevator, sex drive, and somehow I even lost some weight! Did some research and this is the actual product that showed cognitive improvement in clinical trials. I always try to get products with specific evidence, and most of the times I think you can tell the difference.
Saluti,
Andy

Edited by Brainbox, 28 February 2009 - 10:25 PM.
Removed probable spam


#6 brotherx

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 01:55 PM

Hi Zaxxus,

That's sound almost like a commercial ;-)

Edited by Brainbox, 28 February 2009 - 10:26 PM.
yes, it did, so I removed your quote as well. :)


#7 Zaxxus

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 12:25 AM

Good spot, I have actually been involved in the clinical trials!


I

Hi Zaxxus,

That's sound almost like a commercial ;-)



#8 Lufega

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 01:00 PM

Good spot, I have actually been involved in the clinical trials!


I

Hi Zaxxus,

That's sound almost like a commercial ;-)


Where do you buy the bacogenins (A3)?

#9 jackinbox

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Posted 25 March 2009 - 04:44 PM

Could you guys post the brand you got success with?

#10 brotherx

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Posted 31 March 2009 - 01:08 AM

Smart city bacopa monnieri - 50 % baccosides 100mg
I take between 3-5 a day.
And it gives me the most vivid dreams. Sometimes unbelievable real.

Cheers

Alex

Could you guys post the brand you got success with?



I haven't seen seem yet. But give me a hint if you do!

Cheers

Alex

Good spot, I have actually been involved in the clinical trials!


I

Hi Zaxxus,

That's sound almost like a commercial ;-)


Where do you buy the bacogenins (A3)?



#11 chrono

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 09:34 PM

I thought that a little discussion of the composition of bacopa might be useful to aid in choosing good products (and for research, of course ^^).

This first paper provides a summary of the 12 saponins known before the paper posted in this thread (grand total of 15, now). They also analyze the amount of all compounds found in whole plant material and several products.

Estimation of twelve bacopa saponins in Bacopa monnieri extracts and formulations by high-performance liquid chromatography.
Murthy PB, Raju VR, Ramakrisana T, Chakravarthy MS, Kumar KV, Kannababu S, Subbaraju GV.

Bacosides are a complex mixture of structurally closely related compounds, glycosides of either jujubogenin or pseudojujubogenin (Fig. 1)...Major saponins found in Bacopa monnieri are derivatives of two aglycones, jujubogenin and pseudojujubogenin. The saponins, in two groups, differ only in their sugar moieties. Bacopasaponins possess a weak chromophore.

Posted Image

An extraction procedure for plant materials was evaluated by extracting the plant material (PM-1) with 3x30 ml of 70% methanol, which is sufficient for complete extraction of bacopa saponins 1—12.


The results presented in Table 4 reveal that the compounds Bacoside A3 (3), Bacopaside II (4), Bacopaside I (5), Bacopaside X (6) and Bacopasaponin C (7) were major components and the remaining were minor, but, in quantifiable amounts in Bacopa monnieri plant materials (PM) and total saponins are in the range 5.1—6.0%. Compounds 3—12 were the major peaks whereas Bacopasaponin F (1) and Bacopasaponin E (2) have been detected as minor components in Bacopa monnieri extracts (EM). Major part of the saponin content was contributed by compounds 3—10 in all commercial formulations analyzed. Bacopaside IV (11) and Bacopaside V (12) were not present in commercial formulations (FM-1 and FM-2) procured in the domestic market. The total saponin content of the formulations are in the range 1.47—66.03 mg per capsule or tablet.

Posted Image


Himalaya is a notable exception in the products tested, containing only 1.5mg total saponin content, and missing 5 of the 12 compounds. This may be a whole-plant product, rather than extract, and the missing compounds may simply have been below the detection threshold when only looking at a single pill. The Himalaya product I have ("Bacopa mental alertness") contains ~66.5mg saponins, which is in line with the other extracts here. It is also standardized via chromatography (see below).


The previous study did not list the familiar Bacoside A and B in the list of compounds. These were identified in the 60s by the Chatterji/Basu group [1] [2] [3]; only ten years later was it discovered that what are called A and B are each mixtures of several saponins [4]. But it wasn't until 2004 that the identity of bacoside A [5] and B [6] were finally defined (ID #s from study above):

Bacoside A (triglycosidic saponins)

bacoside A3 (3)

bacopaside II (4)

bacopaside X (6)

bacopa saponin C (7)


Bacoside B (diglycosidic saponins)

bacopaside N1 (8)

bacopaside N2 (9)

bacopaside IV (11)

bacopaside V (12)


Bacoside A group are the major constituents, accounting for ~80% of the saponin content in the extracts and plants tested tested.

The study above used a simple three-fold extraction of methanol to extract the saponins; an earlier study determined this method to extract 98.3%+ of each of the compounds [7]. Reflux in methanol is also exhaustive [6]. The simplicity of extraction makes it a lot harder to flub up, and more likely that any given extract will contain the full range of active ingredients. Among the last 4 extract products tested in the study above, the ratio of the 12 compounds is fairly consistent, with deviations in the ballpark of those seen in the plant material itself.

However, it was noted in [6] that one of the commercial samples tested in [7] was standardized to 50% A+B by UV method, and actually contained less than 20% total saponin content. So while the relative ratios may be fairly predictable, the total content may be less accurate. Products standardized by chromatography are greatly preferred, for this reason.


There seems to be some conflicting data on the amount of saponins in whole plants. Study [7] found the total saponin content to be 1.06% for stems, and 1.74-1.99% for leaves. However, the first study above found amounts from 5.1-6%. This may be explained by the structure of the major components being identified only after [7] was published, though in theory I don't believe this is necessary for determining total saponin content.

Edited by chrono, 10 October 2011 - 12:38 PM.

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#12 choqueiro

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 03:54 PM

According to this information what bacopa brand is superior??

I´m going to try bacopa and I doubt between Planetary Herbals, Thorne, Himalaya or Paradise Herbs. Any recommendation??

Is there any difference between the "whole plant" products and those made with "leaf extract"??

Thanks

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#13 chrono

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 05:34 PM

Well...

The simplicity of extraction makes it a lot harder to flub up, and more likely that any given extract will contain the full range of active ingredients. Among the last 4 extract products tested in the study above, the ratio of the 12 compounds is fairly consistent, with deviations in the ballpark of those seen in the plant material itself.

However, it was noted in [6] that one of the commercial samples tested in [7] was standardized to 50% A+B by UV method, and actually contained less than 20% total saponin content. So while the relative ratios may be fairly predictable, the total content may be less accurate. Products standardized by chromatography are greatly preferred, for this reason.


If you want to know about specific products, it would be really helpful if you could do some research: take notes on the labels and websites, look for what they say about saponin content (total or A+B) and how they standardized it, and look for mentions of either UV or chromatography. I'd love to help increase our understanding of which products are best, but TBH, I don't have time to research products I'm not that interested in taking. I hope the info above has provided some tools so others can help with the work a bit...

The thread Best Bacopa Brand? is probably a more appropriate place to discuss further details, than a thread about research.

The difference between extracts (leaf, hopefully) and full plant is that...well, extracts theoretically contain a greater concentration of active ingredients, while getting rid of the non-active stuff that's just part of the structure of the plant. When doing an extraction, there's always the possibility that active ingredients will be thrown away, but the point about the methanol was that it's really easy to extract all the active ingredients from this one. In ingesting the whole plant, 95% of the material is just plant matter. I suspect this is part of the reason people can get GI upset from some bacopa products.




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