62 replies to this topic

[Live Forever]

I just watched my Tivo'd 60 Minutes episode from Sunday, and there was a story on the debate about lowering the legal drinking age to 18:
http://www.cbsnews.c...in4813571.shtml

The people supporting it made the argument that it would be much safer because 1) it goes on anyway, just underground which makes it much less safe than if kids could drink in open situations (think: keg stands, guzzling, etc. vs. drinking with parents, drinking in social situations, etc.), and 2) police resources would be freed up to pursue the truly dangerous activities such as DUI, public intoxication, etc. instead of trying to chase around 18-21 year old kids to write tickets. Also there is the argument that people are allowed to do a lot of things at 18 (vote, serve on a jury, go to war), so why shouldn't they be allowed to drink as well?

There was also an interesting proposal by one of the guys on the show that I had not heard before. He proposed having a special license that people are given that allows them to buy alcohol. (issued after the person passes a course and test on alcohol safety, much like drivers licenses are issued after a person passes tests on driving) The license could be revoked or suspended for infractions like DUI and other stuff. I thought that was a pretty interesting proposal.

So, what do you guys think; Should the age be lowered, or should it stay the same?

[Vgamer1]

Yes, it should be lowered, for all the reasons you stated. Also many other countries who have a drinking age of 18 have lower rates of alcohol related crimes (DUI, etc.) I think lowering the legal age to 18 would keep people from feeling so restricted before turning 21 only to start binging and developing alcoholism afterward.

[wydell]

Well, it would be interesting to know stats of DUIs and alcohol related accidents and deaths when the drinking age was 18. If all of those things were higher when the age was 18, I think that proponents of a lower drinking age will have a tough time making a compelling argument.

That was the Boulder Police Chief on 60 Minutes, I believe. I saw an article in the local paper

[niner]

I'd like to see the data on this, like wydell mentioned. I have a feeling it isn't going to look good for lowering the drinking age. I like the alcohol license idea, although that would just let kids buy for their friends. I'd also like to see a system where kids could drink with their parents. Particularly if the kids would buy... I'm not really that crazy about having a bunch of drunken teenagers driving around.

[Live Forever]

I'd like to see the data on this, like wydell mentioned. I have a feeling it isn't going to look good for lowering the drinking age.

It doesn't really bother me if DUIs go up some. I would expect them to, in fact. Banning drinking for everyone would drastically lower DUIs, but I don't support that. (Also, you can make the same argument about anything; eating high fat diets cause more hospital visits but I don't think they should be banned, etc.)

I like the alcohol license idea, although that would just let kids buy for their friends.

Presumably, buying alcohol for underaged people without a license would be an offense worthy of getting your license revoked. Of course it wouldn't be a perfect system, but 21 year olds buy liquor for people under age now.

[Luna]

People are ages 18-21 are usually not very responsible still.
Having them drink at those ages would have the potential of increasing accidents due to drunk drivers and other kind of dangerous drunk behavior.

It can also increase addiction, as those ages can be some of the most critical ages in defining a person.

[wydell]

[quote name='Live Forever' date='26-Feb 2009, 12:04 AM' post='303518']
[
It doesn't really bother me if DUIs go up some. I would expect them to, in fact. Banning drinking for everyone would drastically lower DUIs, but I don't support that. (Also, you can make the same argument about anything; eating high fat diets cause more hospital visits but I don't think they should be banned, etc.)

It should bother you if DUIs go up. The difference between Diet and DUIs is that DUIs sometimes involve irresponsible people killing others, like perhaps you, your friends, or relatives. Poor diets involve irresponsible people killing themselves.

[openeyes]

I believe we should either eliminate the drinking age altogether, with people being taught from the start to drink responsibly, before they're out driving or being expected to have sex, or raise the drinking/smoking age to at least 60, when hormones have calmed down a bit and nicotine could be beneficial in reducing risk of alzheimers. Better yet, maybe push to only let retired people drink, so it won't conflict with worker productivity. If people don't want to lower the drinking age, see if they'll defend against raising it significantly.

Edited by openeyes, 26 February 2009 - 09:22 PM.

[Live Forever]

It doesn't really bother me if DUIs go up some. I would expect them to, in fact. Banning drinking for everyone would drastically lower DUIs, but I don't support that. (Also, you can make the same argument about anything; eating high fat diets cause more hospital visits but I don't think they should be banned, etc.)

It should bother you if DUIs go up. The difference between Diet and DUIs is that DUIs sometimes involve irresponsible people killing others, like perhaps you, your friends, or relatives. Poor diets involve irresponsible people killing themselves.

Then you support making all drinking illegal, I guess?

My point is, I don't support making things illegal just to "protect people from themselves". (whether it be drinking alcohol, eating fattening food, smoking pot, skydiving, etc.) Of course driving under the influence should be illegal since it puts other people at risk, and if that is what is bothering you, then crack down on the DUIs, not the drinking.

Edited by Live Forever, 27 February 2009 - 01:39 AM.

[eternaltraveler]

If the drinking age was lowered college kids would have much less fun sneaking around

[cryofan]

Are we pretending today that America is a democracy?

[wydell]

Well, personally it would not bother me if all drinking were illegal. But I would not argue for that. Prohibition did not really work.

I suppose there are ways on cracking down on DUIs. ( Some ideas: Make alcohol prohibitively expensive with a sin tax, More draconian punishments (criminal and civil) on servers (bars and restaurants) and drivers. Perhaps folks should lose driving privileges forever if caught while driving. And perhaps there should licensing for everyone - with a loss of right to buy, drink, purchase alcohol in the future - if convicted of a DUI. With all that, perhaps people would still drive drunk. Who knows? They still drive drunk now even though there are some severe penalties

I don't care if people drink, as long as they don't hurt others in the process.

It doesn't really bother me if DUIs go up some. I would expect them to, in fact. Banning drinking for everyone would drastically lower DUIs, but I don't support that. (Also, you can make the same argument about anything; eating high fat diets cause more hospital visits but I don't think they should be banned, etc.)

It should bother you if DUIs go up. The difference between Diet and DUIs is that DUIs sometimes involve irresponsible people killing others, like perhaps you, your friends, or relatives. Poor diets involve irresponsible people killing themselves.

Then you support making all drinking illegal, I guess?

My point is, I don't support making things illegal just to "protect people from themselves". (whether it be drinking alcohol, eating fattening food, smoking pot, skydiving, etc.) Of course driving under the influence should be illegal since it puts other people at risk, and if that is what is bothering you, then crack down on the DUIs, not the drinking.

[VictorBjoerk]

having a drinking age is really bad. Noone cares about it here in sweden among youths. The only thing that comes from it is wasted tax money on "punishing" those giving younger people alcohol. Instead of punishing these people money could be used to combating the aging problem.

The same applies to drugs etc. It costs 800 dollars a day to have a swedish guy in prison for selling Marijuana, the sentence is often 10 years or so. That's a cost of 3 000 000 dollars to punish someone for doing that( + the cost of the trial). I would like to ask the question, is it really so horrible to sell pieces of a unhealthy plant to someone that more than 3 million dollars should be wasted to destroy the life of that person.

Personally I dislike alcohol,smoking as well as all other drugs but of course I think everyone should be free too use them as much as they want instead of wasting enormous tax money to do something that does not result in any social good.

[Live Forever]

Perhaps it should be a state by state decision, much like was done prior to the passage of the National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984?

[Infernity]

lf they can go to the army when they're 18 than hell yes they can drink!

[JLL]

If you support the idea that those in power can prohibit you from drinking, then you also implicitly support the idea that those in power can prohibit you from deciding what's best for yourself. So should some politician get the idea that living longer is a bad idea for you, you must accept it as is.

It's a question of individual freedom, not a question of optimizing some strange concept of a greater good involving healthcare costs, taxes, and whatnot.

[biknut]

When I was 18 I liked the idea. They tried it for a few years here in Texas back in the 70s. The % of traffic fatalities for people 18 to 21 went up pretty significantly and after just a few years they changed the law back to 21.

Here in Texas minors can drink legally in public if they are in the company of their parents. How cool is that?

[.fonclea.]

You can have sex at 18 but can't have a drink ? It sounds ridiculous.

[Annan]

There should be a forth option in the poll: ban alcohol consumption.

Either that or have no age limitation on it, I keep wavering between the two

Banning would reduce the general availability, and it's not so odd considering there are far less dangerous drugs that are illegal.

The age limit doesn't mean much to young people, at least not in Scotland. I think it even makes it more fun, the harder something is to get the more you enjoy it when you get it.

Neither would licences work as people would just fake them as they do for identification or get someone else to buy it for them. You can't stop people from getting what they want, the best that can be done is to educate them about alcohol.

A friend of mine said that her father taught her about the evils of smoking by lighting a cigar in a car with the windows rolled out until she grew nauseous. The same principal might be applied for alcohol education also?

You can have sex at 18 but can't have a drink ? It sounds ridiculous.

You can have sex and get married at 16 in scotland but can't get drunk till 18, totally ridiculous!

Not that anyone obeys either law, haha

Edited by Annan, 05 May 2009 - 12:26 AM.

[drus]

no, if anything it should be raised!

[Gerald W. Gaston]

When I was a wee teen, it was 18 for beer and wine, and 21 for liquor. When I was a couple years away from 18, it went up to 19 and kept going up every year due to the National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984. I remember a lot of my friends were pissed and used the same "We can die for our country at war, but can't have a drink" example then. The reality was I did more drinking between the age of 15 and 21 than I have done since. It was just too easy to get, and getting in some of our local pubs were easy enough if you knew the right folks. Plus arm bands were a joke in most places.

My nephews don't seem to have much issue with it now either as they always have booze and are always partying hard. No I don't buy it for them (in fact I have 'confiscated' a few things for medicinal purposes of course)!

Back then I would have been right there saying to raise it. Now... well not so sure. I've lost a few friends to drinking related stupid stuff.

If you relate this to smoking... back when I was growing up anyone, any age could go in and buy cigs. Either the store clerk didn't care or assumed you were buying them for mom and dad. But either way they were very accessible. At the bus stop (which was next to a store) half the kids would be smoking. If it would have been harder to get them, and frowned upon more, I really think a few less of them would have been doing it. Saying that, I always liked doing what I wasn't supposed to (like staying out all weekend on a restricted license - it lost some appeal when I turned 16 and could drive all hours) so I guess I would have been doing it then hehe, so yeah it could go either way.

I would like to see some numbers as well on the DUIs and alcohol related traffic deaths.

More alcohol related stuff:

U.S. history of alcohol minimum purchase age by state

List of alcohol laws of the United States by state

Also... comparing the US to other countries.... some of them have much stiffer penalties for DUIs. Whether the minimum age is increased or not, I would like to see DWI/DUIs command a tougher sentence.


edit: typos and such

Edited by frankbuzin, 06 May 2009 - 04:32 AM.

[kismet]

18? Are you kidding me? Make it 16, like in Austria. On the other hand we have quite some problems with binge drinking youths (maybe because of our drinking tradition or maybe because of the lax laws -- don't know). I don't think DUI is a problem limited to young people in Austria (for one thing, you are only allowed to get a driving license at 17/18). Considering that such laws are pretty much useless and only symbolical without Orwellian control, like JLL, I'd vote to abandon them alltogether (at least in theory). There's nothing more despicable than hypocritical laws no one follows.

Indeed... "I don't care if people drink, as long as they don't hurt others in the process."

[biknut]

There should be a forth option in the poll: ban alcohol consumption.

They already tried that. It didn't work out too well.

[tunt01]

when i was in college, i lived in new orleans and because of a loophole, the law was 18 to drink. it basically flouted the federal law for local french law code.

it was a pretty crazy party college, but i didn't really see anything materially abnormal. the difference was drinking was done in public/at bars rather than inside frat houses. i found it to be more socially sophisticated, healthier, and under the direct eyes of local police on many occassions.

Edited by prophets, 06 May 2009 - 06:05 PM.

[HyDrive]

Too many 18 year olds are not responsible enough to be allowed to drink. Seriously, how many mature 18 year olds do you know? Life is one big party without consequences for a significant portion of people around that age. Drink too much alcohol, get raped, mugged, black out, etc. It's not pretty.

I'd rather something like Marijuana be legalized for 18 year olds instead, when's the last time you heard of someone getting hurt from that? Never. You can't OD on weed either.

[maxwatt]

Too many 18 year olds are not responsible enough to be allowed to drink. Seriously, how many mature 18 year olds do you know? Life is one big party without consequences for a significant portion of people around that age. Drink too much alcohol, get raped, mugged, black out, etc. It's not pretty.

I'd rather something like Marijuana be legalized for 18 year olds instead, when's the last time you heard of someone getting hurt from that? Never. You can't OD on weed either.

Driving on weed is not cool, it's as bad as driving drunk. I say lower the drinking age, and raise the driving age. Or teens cannot drive other teens without an adult in the car, a provisional restricted license until 21. The whole excuse for raising the drinking age was to minimize alcohol related deaths from teenage drinking and driving.

The drinking age is 18 in Canada, and there is no obvious problem.

[Esoparagon]

Not allowing legal adults to choose whether they consume alcoholic substances is hypocrisy at the deepest level.

You will be tried in the court of law as an adult because you are completely capable to understand your own actions and completely responsible for what you do, but then you can't decide to drink if you want to. There's a huge disconnect here.

And we know full bloody well people drink before 21, people drink before 18! And you're not going to stop it. It's pointless tax payers money going to harass people who shouldn't be in trouble for it in the first place.


You may argue that the brain isn't fully developed until 21 so you shouldn't drink. So what? You shouldn't drink? Who are you to tell an adult what to do? Either raise the adult status to 21 or lower the drinking age to 18. At least be bloody consistent.

[Selmasun]

I am probably also for the lowering of the drinking age. The fact is that a lot of young people under 21 drink and it doesn't matter to them if it's illegal or not. I think it would be okay to make the drinking age 18 because it would make things easier for the police and the people who sell alcohol. I don't understand the argument with maturity - they are old enough to drive a car but not old enough to drink alcohol? That's a huge contradiction in my opinion.

[Luna]

I am probably also for the lowering of the drinking age. The fact is that a lot of young people under 21 drink and it doesn't matter to them if it's illegal or not. I think it would be okay to make the drinking age 18 because it would make things easier for the police and the people who sell alcohol. I don't understand the argument with maturity - they are old enough to drive a car but not old enough to drink alcohol? That's a huge contradiction in my opinion.

That might be beneficial.

You mature 3 years in driving and just then mature in drinking.
If you suddenly start driving and drinking at the same time, it might be dangerous.

Personally I am against alcohol. I am surprised how many people are for lowering the age for alcohol.

I think it's just because people enjoy it and forget the actual reasons why it should be restricted or don't care for them because they just enjoy it.

[mitkat]

Here in Ontario, Canada, it's 19, however different provinces have different regulations - Quebec and Alberta are younger (18) I believe amongst others. I can imagine all the sneaking around (as eternaltraveller put it) during college years in the States, I can't imagine not being able to legally drink during college at all. I'm sure it's lots of fun but it must add to the illegality/vice factor in young people's minds. It's illegal, thus more fun - confusing and blurring the lines of social responsibility ie you're already breaking the law, might as well get totally smashed. Like also said earlier, the culture has a lot to do with the drinking age, personally I think it's the paramount factor if lowering it would fly or not. Kids are always going to get crunked. Parental supervision at a younger age has worked pretty well where I've grown up imo.