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Should The Us Go To War With Iraq?


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#841 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 01:09 AM

A COMMONLY RECOGNIZED RULE of LAW IS THE ALTERNATIVE [!] [!]


Lazarus Long,

No justice, no peace.

The above needs to be included in the commonly recognized rule of law otherwise this so-called law is worthless.

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 01:28 AM.


#842 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 01:20 AM

While on the subject of the so-called Rule of Law, where are the remaining US POWs?

bob

http://www.cbsnews.c...ain545565.shtml

Posted Image

U.S. POWs On TV Identified

March 24, 2003


CBS) U.S. officials confirm that 12 soldiers are missing after Iraqi forces ambushed an army supply convoy around an Nasiriyah, a major crossing point over the Euphrates northwest of Basra. Relatives in New Mexico and Kansas identified two of the soldiers.

Five U.S. captives appeared terrified as they were thrust in front of an Iraqi TV microphone Sunday and peppered with questions. The footage also showed at least four bodies.

They were identified Monday afternoon as Edgar Hernandez, Mission, Texas; Shoshawna Johnson, El Paso, Texas; Joseph Hudson, Alamogordo, N.M.; Patrick Miller, Park City, Kansas; and James Riley, New Jersey.

One captured American, speaking in a shaky voice, said he had nothing against Iraqis. "They don't bother me, I don't bother them," he said.

A woman soldier with a bandaged ankle, presumably Johnson, held her arms tightly in her lap, her eyes darting back and forth.

Another soldier, lying wounded on a mat, swayed slightly when Iraqis tried to prop him up for the camera.


With the POW captures and other setbacks, reports CBS News Correspondent Barry Bagnato, the Pentagon Monday released a statement that asks Americans to keep their perspective. War is a brutal and messy event, it says; there will be tragedy and losses. But it ends with a declaration that the ultimate victory of the coalition is assured.

Scenes of interrogators questioning four men and a woman were broadcast by the Arab satellite station Al-Jazeera with footage from state-controlled Iraqi television. Each was interviewed individually.

The 507th Maintenance, part of the 111th Air Defense Artillery Brigade, is stationed at Fort Bliss, and at least two of the interviewed prisoners said they were with the 507th.

President Bush, returning to the White House from Camp David, demanded that the POWs be treated well.

"We expect them to be treated humanely, just like we'll treat any prisoners of theirs that we capture humanely. If not, the people who mistreat the prisoners will be treated as war criminals," he said.

International Committee of the Red Cross spokeswoman Nada Doumani said the showing of the prisoners on TV violates Article 13 of the Geneva Conventions, which says prisoners should be protected from public curiosity. But she stressed that the priority at the moment is to get access to them.

Russian President Vladimir Putin called on Iraq Monday to obey international conventions on the humane treatment of prisoners of war after 12 American soldiers were ambushed and believed captured or killed.

Putin told top Cabinet ministers that he had asked the Foreign Ministry "to appeal to Iraq with an urgent request to comply with these particular rules."

One of the prisoners, Hudson, is an American of Filipino descent, and Philippines President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo asked the Iraqis to observe international laws on the proper treatment of prisoners of war.

"Prisoners of war must be treated well and fairly — given food, medicine if needed, and never be tortured," Arroyo said.

Anecita Hudson of Alamogordo said she saw her son interviewed on Iraqi television as one of the U.S. soldiers taken prisoner. She said the interview was carried on a Filipino television station she subscribes to.

"I saw my son and I said, 'Oh, my God.' I looked at him, and he looked so scared. I started crying," said Anecita Hudson.

His brother, Anthony Hudson, said he was "pretty much shocked" by the capture.


They were close, Anthony told CBS News Early Show co-anchor Rene Syler, and they talked before Joseph left for the Gulf.

"Of course he didn't want to go. Who does? Who wanted to go?" Anthony Hudson said. "He kept a cool head about it. He didn't ... show it through his words, but in the back of his voice you can hear it."

Joseph Hudson is married and has a 5-year-old daughter.

A senior administration official tells CBS News President Bush has not seen the Iraqi TV tapes of the American POWs

The Iraqi government has said it would give the International Committee of the Red Cross freedom to move about the country to perform its traditional tasks, which include monitoring the care and treatment of POWs.

The U.S. military says it has more than 2,000 Iraqi prisoners of war.


©MMIII CBS Broadcasting Inc.

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 01:54 AM.


#843 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 01:38 AM

As an aside, the reason why the United States came into existance was because of injustice.

The Founding Fathers took corrective action towards this injustice by Revolting against it by means of the Declaration of Independence followed by war and then establishing the Constitution including the Bill of Rights.

bob

http://www.archives....nscription.html

Posted Image

The Declaration of Independence: A Transcription


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,


When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.


In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 01:51 AM.


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#844 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 02:45 AM

Justice is a State that can never be assumed, only striven for. Since those simpler and perhaps more nobler times we have been forever in search of the fulfillment of that quest and have fallen forever short of our goal. To assume the perfection of our system is to condemn it, for it will not long suffer or survive the complacency of the People.

I said I was jaded, I recognize my cynicism as a set-back, not defeat. If I had relinquished my ideals now that would be defeat; if I had suborned my principles to self advancement, if I had lost sight of blind Justice, now that would have defined my being overcome.

No I do not despair, though I try to have no hope, for I seek reason for my purpose not faith. No, I am as yet unconquered in this respect for if I had been I would be like so many now conspiring for mere advantage and hiding my opinion for a shadow chance of advancement or a sycophant mimicking what is so obviously necessary that many would prefer to hear.

I am still undefeated by my own cynicism for I am willing to rise to the challenge of rational debate and present not one alternative, but as many as I can reasonably suggest to all that will listen herein this forum and beyond. I am tenacious and resilient, persistent and dedicated to this purpose or I would have been long gone from this land to where the fleeting chance of survival might offer a minor few minimal sanctuary from the rising storm.

I am here, I am willing and I am oh so ready to discuss real alternatives but more importantly I am still waiting for those that are also so willing and find myself, with the notable exception of a scant few such as your self, remarkably alone.

We have passed the five hundred mark in our membership and many more are starting to be heard from but still I long for being vastly outnumbered by the voices of those with rational intent and determination to seek solutions for what we are together facing.

You and I are always heard yet few heed. We vote, we write, we investigate for ourselves and seek the deeper sense of meaning beneath every claim. You and I can disagree on any and every issue but we are not the problem. Those that would do nothing except depend upon others, such as ourselves to do their thinking for them, to drive them and inspire their faith so as to serve as spectacle to assuage their still primitive need for human sacrifice, they are still a problem and this darker aspect of the People is a serious impediment to Democracy, Freedom, AND Justice.

Alternatives?

One reason I support and encourage the protest is that it is long past due that people got off their asses and got involved. That they rise up again and seize back power for the realization that what is done is not IN their Name, it is done by them for good or ill and the responsibility for these choices is theirs. Our Republic is no gift; it is a burden, a responsibility that is commensurate with the fact that it is Our Right.

You want another alternative. Change the polemic. Begin to engage the enemy in open debate not through media but within a shared forum watched by the whole world.

#845 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 03:04 AM

Also Freedom is inherently dangerous and this Universe is fraught with risk and hazards both known and yet unknown but humanity could at least stop the greatest threat that is discernable, which is to us from ourselves.

I certainly do not expect Peace, perhaps ever, but I most definitely think Justice is a goal that may be attainable in our Lifetime. Should we demonstrate that we respect the Rule of Law we will gain more then a few to associate in this purpose.

If we make a very real and discernable commitment to the creation of a global system of juris prudence, one whose manner of enforcement is transparent and comprehensible to all then we will be one giant step closer to the creation and preservation of a system worthy of being called Just and it will not require violence to enforce its will except in the case of those so aberrant of mind that they are beyond reason. And in their case exception will be made to protect the innocent from them and they in turn, from themselves.

Never forget that Justice is sisyphistic task of monumental proportion that requires vigilance, diligence, and unwavering loyalty, it is an act of love that demands nurture and constant care to reap its bounty and protect those conditions in which it may be cultivated. To love Justice is to recognize that it may never be taken for granted.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 12 April 2003 - 03:05 AM.


#846 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 03:34 AM

You want another alternative. Change the polemic. Begin to engage the enemy in open debate not through media but within a shared forum watched by the whole world.


Lazarus Long,

Saddam's regime was based upon atrocities, fear and lies. I am unaware of any debate that might have worked with that serial killer called Saddam.

On the other hand, the diplomacy of the Bush Administration certainly could have been improved when it came to our allies.

The debate through the media is a technique that I certainly do not agree with, but I am sure that are some on this Forum would disagree.

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 03:34 AM.


#847 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 03:47 AM

We have passed the five hundred mark in our membership and many more are starting to be heard from but still I long for being vastly outnumbered by the voices of those with rational intent and determination to seek solutions for what we are together facing.

You and I are always heard yet few heed. We vote, we write, we investigate for ourselves and seek the deeper sense of meaning beneath every claim. You and I can disagree on any and every issue but we are not the problem. Those that would do nothing except depend upon others, such as ourselves to do their thinking for them, to drive them and inspire their faith so as to serve as spectacle to assuage their still primitive need for human sacrifice, they are still a problem and this darker aspect of the People is a serious impediment to Democracy, Freedom, AND Justice.


Lazarus Long,

Freedom is not free.

I remember discussing a topic in person with someone recently. Rather than give him the answers, I asked him to perform his own research. He responded he didn't have the time, but relied on the news.

In his political conversations, all he did was parrot what he heard on the news.


Posted Image

Parrots sound great until you ask for their rationale.


When confronted for the basis of one of his beliefs, he got mad and walk away.

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 03:49 AM.


#848 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 03:59 AM

I most definitely think Justice is a goal that may be attainable in our Lifetime


Lazarus Long,

Yes, justice is certainly the goal.

A definition of justice that I agree with comes directly from the Declaration of Indepence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


This certainly is going to be a challenge and a long haul.

I look at Russia as both a competitor and a success because they have made a favorable transition towards a more democratic government. Maybe, one move might be to mend some fences with Russia.

bob

#849 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 07:20 AM

As I have said before we are on the cusp of another generation. We can hold a visceral grudge for '79 and the Islamic revolution in Tehran and they can hold a grudge for '53 and our duplicitous handling and the intentional destruction of their homegrown and legitimate aspirations of a fledgling democracy. History is a palpable reality for families that date their oral traditions of personal lineage back over a thousand years.

Or we can sit together both of us and acknowledge the wrongs of the past with a clear and open intent to remedy them by together not repeating them. The example you provide of Russia is a valid one for it demonstrates that what I am proposing can be done.

We can demonstrate that we are also capable of rational negotiation with those that may hate us but are also capable of being rational. This cannot begin as ONLY a simple and subtle cultural exchange (though that too should occur) but should be a process of engagement diplomatically that is extremely challenging for it should involve BOTH highly secret and remarkably OPEN and TRANSPARENT talks that may become the basis of formulating a new awareness on all sides of just who and what we all stand for; them as well as us.

I suggest a debate within the United Nations forum on the Principles of State and the role of Theocracy in the Modern World. One that may be uncomfortable to wage for an Administration that has stated "Faith” as the basis of the initiative but appropriate to create and exchange with a State the declares itself to be a true theocracy such that the Qur'an is the accepted basis of Constitutional Law and the Imam function as a system of Federal and Supreme Court Judges.

What follows is an article that may elucidate the intricacies and suggest the reason for this seemingly bold diplomatic initiative. Let us attempt to "normalize” relations with a decidedly Islamic State not simply unilaterally but as the product of an initiative that by its very nature and regardless of immediate success would demonstrate to the whole world sincerity in our purpose. Let us be as bold in diplomacy as we have been willing to be on the battlefield. Lets us risk the failure that such an initiative might encounter by making the process also more transparent than has ever been done before so as to educate the public not just of both OUR countries, but of the world as to the real power and responsibility of Democracy.

We are all too comfortable with our military might because we hold the position of "Overwhelming Force", the Diplomatic arena is more arcane and uncomfortable for most Americans because we are less prepared, less dominant of this inheritantly more equal ground for conflict but that is the point. This is what would demonstrate true courage on our part and willingness to rationally address the future on their part.


LL/kxs
************************************************************
http://www.iranexper...tions8april.htm

Iran-US Relations: A Cold, Fragile Peace
8 April Eurasia News

Even though US President George W. Bush included Iran in the "axis of evil," Iranian and US diplomats have held periodic exchanges since the September 11 terrorism tragedy. The meetings reflect the reality that the United States needs Iran’s assistance as the Bush administration wages its war on terrorism. At the same time, the exchanges are unlikely to result in the normalization of US-Iranian relations.

Shortly before the United States opened its campaign to oust Iraq dictator Saddam Hussein, senior US officials found themselves in a déjà vu moment: meeting in secret once again with Iranian leaders as the US military prepared to strike one of Tehran’s neighbors. In 2002, the meeting concerned Afghanistan, this year the subject was Iraq.

According to published reports, White House special envoy to the Iraqi opposition Zalmay Khalilzad asked Iranian officials in Geneva to pledge Tehran’s assistance for any American pilots downed in Iranian territory. Khalilzad also sought assurances that Iran’s armed forces would not join the fighting at any time. According to Iranian sources familiar with the meeting, Tehran agreed to both, but asked for a promise of its own: that the United States would not set its sights on Iran after the US army toppled Saddam Hussein’s regime. American officials reportedly equivocated, though Britain has quietly reassured Iran that the Bush administration has no intention of exerting military pressure against Tehran.

Tehran and Washington share a few common enemies in the war on terrorism. They include: the Taliban (Shi’a Iran regularly quarreled with the Sunni extremists on their border); Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein (Iran fought a brutal eight year war with Iraq after Saddam invaded Iran in 1980); and even al Qaeda (Iran has called them "a menace" and Osama bin Laden’s Sunni extremism turned off virtually all political factions in Iran, even if his politics attracted Iran’s hard-liners).

Iran has staked out a position of "active neutrality" in the Iraq conflict, quietly cooperating with the United States where possible, seeking to secure its own legitimate interests in a post-Saddam Iraq, and loudly protesting what some Iranian officials have described as a US desire to control Iraqi oil resources. This double game – quiet assistance coupled with public denunciations – is partly a reflection of Tehran’s fear that it will become Washington’s next target. Another factor is Iran’s perceived need to actively safeguard its own interests against US ambitions to remake the Middle East’s geopolitical landscape.

Still, despite having common enemies, the quiet cooperation, and the growing need for ad hoc face-to-face diplomatic and intelligence meetings, a breakthrough in the often prickly US-Iranian relationship is unlikely in the foreseeable future, political analysts and diplomats say. The possibility of military confrontation also cannot be ruled out, they add.

As one American official put it: "These meetings are important because they help us forestall any misunderstandings. But they should not be construed as anything other than preventive measures meetings. Our differences are still too far apart on several issues."

Washington usually points to Iran’s alleged pursuit of weapons of mass destruction and its support for terrorist organizations, especially Hezbollah and Hamas, as key impediments to diplomatic normalization. In two recent speeches, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice pointed to Iran’s alleged nuclear weapons program as a serious looming threat.

Iran denies it is pursuing nuclear weapons, consistently calling for regional nuclear disarmament, including Israel. For its part, Iran regularly accuses Washington of seeking to damage Iran’s economy through its attempts to sanction foreign companies that do business in Iran under the Congressionally-mandated Iran-Libya Sanctions Act. Tehran also complains about US opposition to Iran’s entry to the World Trade Organization and regular resistance to World Bank loans. Washington describes sanctions as a legitimate form of protest of Iranian policies.

In recent public comments, US Secretary of State Colin Powell turned up the heat on Iran, telling a packed audience at the American Israel Public Affairs Committee annual meeting that "the entire international community must insist that Iran end its support for terrorism." A day earlier, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld warned Iran to rein in Iraqi forces affiliated to the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, a Shi’a opposition group based in southern Iran.

Nasser Hadian, a well-regarded political science professor from Tehran University, who is currently monitoring US-Iran relations from Columbia University in New York, told EurasiaNet that the Bush administration appears to be trying to build "a security consensus" among senior American policy makers that Iran poses a threat to US national security.

Hadian points to stepped-up official rhetoric implicating Iran with terrorism and official focus on Iran’s alleged nuclear weapons program. "They seem to feel that they need to build this security consensus as insurance – in case they feel the need to set their sights on Iran next," he said.

Many analysts say the issue that most bitterly divides the United States and Iran is Israel. Washington accuses Iran of supporting terrorist groups that attack Israel, while Tehran accuses the United States of "blind support" for Israel at the expense of other regional countries. In fact, according to several analysts, the Israel-Iran rivalry will most probably drive Iran-US relations for the foreseeable future.

Israel regularly criticizes Iran for its support for Hezbollah and Hamas and has expressed concern with what it portrays as Iran’s nuclear weapons program. Iran blames Israel for the breakdown in Arab-Israeli talks and regularly accuses Tel Aviv of "instigation" through its continued building of settlements in The West Bank and Gaza. Iran’s ambassador to the United Nations, Mohammad Javad Zarif, regularly points out that Hezbollah and Hamas "need no outside inspiration" to fuel their anger at Israel.

Behrooz Ghamari Tabrizi, an Iran observer at Georgia State University, notes that "Iran is more worried about an Israeli attack than an American one, and the current state of hostility between Iran and Israel prevents any sort of warming between Iran and the United States."

John Calabrese, a regional specialist at the Middle East Institute in Washington, notes that "a preemptive American or even Israeli military strike against Iranian nuclear installations during, or some time after, war in Iraq cannot be ruled out." The Guardian newspaper reported that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has just such a plan on his desk awaiting signature. An Israeli strike on an Iranian installation would, most probably, provoke an Iranian response through Hezbollah, potentially leading to a cycle of events that could spiral out of control, possibly sucking the United States into conflict with Iran. Against this background of heightened tensions, the most likely scenario for US-Iranian relations for the next couple of years will be a cold, fragile peace.

#850 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 12:37 PM

Those who take the time to study nuance and substance may begin to notice a decided parallelism between the debate that has raged here in this thread and the one that raged in secret within the White House that has now gone very public.

Web Text & Links

Posted Image CALLIE SHELL/AURORA FOR TIME
DIPLOMAT AND WARRIOR: Powell wants the State department and the U.N. to have a role in postwar Iraq; Rumsfeld argues the Pentagon can rebuild Iraq fast and without outside help

Clash of the Administration Titans

Old rivals Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld square off in a new battle over how to rebuild a post-Saddam Iraq

By Michael Duffy and Massimo Calabresi

Posted Sunday, April 6, 2003; 1:32 p.m. EST
There are moments in history when ideology stops being a parlor game for academics and actually shapes the future of the world. As American troops mass outside Baghdad, a battle of ideas is taking place inside Washington's corridors of power that could fashion a new Middle East. Leading the fight are the two titans of American foreign policy: the moderate and isolated Secretary of State, Colin Powell, and the hard-line Pentagon boss, Donald Rumsfeld. Though the two men make nice in public, they have fought over almost every aspect of U.S. foreign policy—from China to North Korea to Russia to, of course, Iraq. Rumsfeld and Powell last week broke several months of public comity, and it was no coincidence that the mortars started flying just when U.S. troops arrived at Baghdad's city limits.

For months it had seemed that the normally tidy Bush Administration, where debate is top secret and dissent is taboo, could never tolerate a rivalry of this size, depth or duration. But the grudge match between Powell and Rummy is one of the few dependable leitmotivs of the second Bush presidency—though the rivalry harks back to the first Bush. Powell, the moderate, was a favorite of Bush's father; Rumsfeld and Bush the elder never got along. Powell, a retired four-star general, trusts the military implicitly; Rumsfeld above all wants to teach it a few lessons. Each man enjoys rock-star status. Each came to his current post in a roundabout way. Rumsfeld, who once served as Richard Nixon's NATO ambassador, has become at 70 the civilian warrior. Powell, a lifetime soldier, is at 66 the country's top diplomat. In other words, each man considers himself an expert in his own field—and the other guy's as well.

But personalities are probably the least important factor in this face-off. At the core of the conflict are two different ways of looking at the world. Rumsfeld and his team of neoconservative civilians at the Pentagon favor an activist and often unilateralist approach to advancing America's interests abroad. Powell's camp sees the world through a prism of interlocking interests that need to be protected by alliances and stability. The fight between internationalists and unilateralists has gone on in the Republican Party for a generation. What's different this time is that Rummy and Powell are engaging in it at the very moment when the principles of U.S. foreign policy are up for grabs.

This is why both men are so eager to test-drive their theories in Iraq. Now that Saddam is on the verge of being ousted, the key battle is for control of the Iraqi interim authority, which will move the country from U.S. military rule to an elected Iraqi government, crafting its constitution and its future. Rumsfeld's deputy, Paul Wolfowitz, insists the process will be open to all. "The Secretary is not promoting any individual or group to be the future government of Iraq," Wolfowitz told TIME. But behind the scenes, Rumsfeld's aides have been promoting a team of exiles led by Iraqi National Congress boss Ahmed Chalabi, 58, a former businessman, to control the interim authority. They view Chalabi as a reliable democrat in a nation of Saddam followers. But State, backed by CIA officials, says Chalabi is a charlatan who hasn't lived in Iraq since 1958 and has no constituency there. This group favors waiting to see which new forces emerge.

Two weeks ago Powell sent Rumsfeld a list of prominent Americans who could help the hand-off from the military to the interim authority, but most were rejected as woolly-headed by the Defense Department. Instead, Rumsfeld nominated a notably more hard-line group, including a former CIA director, James Woolsey, to be Minister of Information. Powell's folks view that maneuver as dangerously unwise. How better to deepen Arab resentment about the war, they ask, than to put a well-known ex-spook in charge of public information? Woolsey didn't help when he responded to Arab concerns last week by saying, "We want you nervous. We want you to realize this country and its allies are on the march and that we are on the side of those whom you—the Mubaraks, the Saudi royal family—most fear: we're on the side of your own people." Even a Rumsfeld ally said later of tapping Woolsey, "Whose bright idea was that?"

But rather than back down, Rumsfeld's forces fired off a letter to the White House, asking the President to take advantage of a swiftly changing situation in Iraq to install Chalabi's interim government. "All our military guys on the ground are desperate to figure out whom they can send to talk to these friendly Iraqis," said a Rumsfeld ally. "We have to grab this opportunity."

Pentagon officials said repeatedly last week that the military wants to turn the country over to the Iraqis in stages, as soon as possible. Some of them say they need only six months to build a democracy. But officials at the CIA and State believe there is no way the U.S. can even begin to create a stable democracy in six months in a country that has never had one. CIA officials believe a rush to elections might result in the kind of winner—let's say a radical Islamist party—that the U.S. might be forced to reject outright, a distinctly undemocratic precedent. The Pentagon hard-liners think this attitude underestimates the Iraqi people and note that some former Soviet-bloc countries made the transition in a matter of months.

Looking for reinforcements, Powell was in Europe last week, feeling out allies to see if they might lend a hand with the postwar mess. British Prime Minister Tony Blair favors using the U.N. to help with humanitarian and reconstruction projects, partly as a way to bring the U.S. and Europe together again after the damaging breach at the Security Council last month. When Blair and Bush meet early this week in Belfast, Blair will echo Powell's line and push the President to seek international help. But the hard-liners are adamantly opposed, saying the U.N. will only make things more expensive and complicated. Besides, they say, if you weren't with us on the takeoff, you don't deserve to be there for the landing.

But the most important debate of all is one that is only being hinted at. The fight about postwar Iraq is also a fight about whether and where Bush will again deploy troops to root out terrorism and transplant democracy. Military officials report that using force against Syria or Iran once Iraq is stabilized is a "live issue" in Bushland. That idea gives the State Department and allies such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt rolling heart attacks. "The camps are dividing on the question of will we push for a vision of a new democratic Middle East, or will we listen to the lobbying of some of the countries in the region," says Sam Brownback, a Kansas Republican who serves on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. "State wants to keep as many people on our side as possible, but the Defense Department is saying, 'Look, this is about a big, bold vision, and we're willing to push it forward.'"

No one can say this Bush lacks the vision thing, which may be a pretty good indicator of where he falls in the great Powell-Rumsfeld debate. In just over two years in office, the President has displayed a preference for the bold stroke—and there may well be others in the offing.

—With reporting by Mark Thompson and Douglas Waller/Washington and James Graff/Brussels

Edited by Lazarus Long, 12 April 2003 - 12:44 PM.


#851 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 12:55 PM

Militarily we must break off a contingent and defend certain primary areas immediately. Ceebees, or Army Corps of Engineers need to go into the electric power plants and sewer & water facilities to get them back on line, Hospitals in the meantime need to be cordoned off from the rioting and secured as well as provided with standby electricity to be used immediately to get rescue operations up and running along with a few military medical staff moving in and beginning to integrate with Iraqi physicians and nurses inorder to relieve the horiffic and worsenning conditions there. we cannot now sit back and wait for Iraqis to "settle down" or come to us, there are key facilities that are being ignored that need to be secured "yesterday".

Web Text and links

April 12, 2003
WAR WITH IRAQ LOOTING IN THE CAPITAL
To Wary Baghdad Shopkeepers, 'Liberation' Looks Like a Jungle
By Michael Slackman and John Daniszewski, Times Staff Writers

BAGHDAD -- For shop assistant Rafi Najih, sitting alone inside his tiny store with a Kalashnikov rifle on his lap, the anarchy of the last few days has already started to make Saddam Hussein's iron fist look pretty good.

"They must either give us Saddam back or do something about the outrage in the streets," Najih, 26, said Friday as he defended the store from looters.


"Look what they did to me. This is the first time I took a weapon in my hands in the entire war."

In the days since Hussein lost his grip on power, Baghdad has moved quickly from liberation to confusion and disorientation -- and, increasingly, bursts of violence. The rules of behavior have changed for everyone, but no one is quite sure what the new rules are or whether they want to obey them.

The result is widespread chaos. After two days of almost cheery looting, Friday saw the city slide into an unsettling mix of oddly festive crime spree and sinister unrest, as shootings, arson and vigilante justice flared across the capital.

Increasingly, gunfire crackles: defenders of property firing at looters, looters firing at the defenders, looters firing at fellow looters over the spoils.

Near a presidential palace in the Mansour district Friday, a fat, angry man in a black robe started shooting at looters with a handgun. They turned and drove away quickly.

The man screamed after them at the top of his lungs: "You sons of dogs! You are a shame for the nation. I will kill everybody who has something in his hands."

Outside the Petroleum Workers Club in the Zoubayeh district, two groups of looters quarreled and one began shooting -- prompting Marines to go out in search of the miscreant.

But elsewhere, looters were going at it with a kind of joie de vivre -- cheerfully carting off all and sundry like lottery winners. Sometimes it's almost comical to watch, they go at it so brazenly and with such impunity -- flashing thumbs-up at Westerners as if to say, you gave all this to us by bringing down Hussein.

The mood of entitlement was captured at one of Hussein's palaces Friday, where ordinary Iraqis drawn by curiosity and awe came stumbling in, uninhibited by U.S. Army troops outside. About three dozen people in all ran up and down the stairs.

One of them, Haled Hashem, sat down at a huge oaken table and said in a loud, mocking voice:

"My dear people, I, Saddam Hussein, decided that all which is mine should be yours. Take it!"

His friends laughed heartily.

But in well-groomed neighborhoods, where families live in small, concrete houses, men have begun standing guard outside their homes with weapons, fearful that looters will invade.

More and more neighborhoods are building roadblocks to keep cars from traveling onto their streets.

In some areas, armed men are setting up their own checkpoints, stopping cars coming into, or trying to leave, their neighborhoods.

The mood -- and the violence -- may get worse as more and more people think that they need to take the law into their own hands to protect their lives and property.

On Arasat al Hindiyah Street, an angry crowd was on the verge of mob justice Friday after it stopped a red bus loaded with big new tires and office chairs. They were about to lynch the looter driving the bus when a tall man with spectacles intervened.

Instead, the driver was dragged off to the local mullah "to decide what we should do with him," said Ahman Issa, 46, a computer programmer.

Issa said the crowd had no choice.

"We protect our wealth. We protect our money. America promised us liberation and democracy," he said. But "this is not liberation. This is not democracy. This is a jungle. We now live in a jungle."

In time, the looters may become sated, or at least run out of items to loot, and the U.S. may step in and restore order.

But the Marines who are making the difficult shift from war-maker to peacekeeper say they have their work cut out for them.

Marine 1st Lt. Frank Dillbeck, of Twentynine Palms, commands a combined anti-armor team that Friday began its new mission, to guard a compound of the International Committee of the Red Cross.

A few short days ago, Dillbeck said, if he had seen an Iraqi carrying a weapon he wouldn't have hesitated to shoot to kill. But if he did that now, he said, he might be shooting people trying to defend their property.

"It's a tough transition," he said, explaining that the team has been told to help restore order. "We are seeing a lot of people running around with guns. Two days ago, it was OK to take them out."

And as the initial euphoria at the end of Hussein's rule begins to fade, people wake up each day to find themselves trapped again.

"We are so glad to get rid of our government, but we are still not safe in our own houses," said Mohammed Al Amari, 25, a dentist.

"There is no control, no government. Everyone acts as he likes. Stealing. Burning. It's chaos."

Civilians still find that their lives are defined by matters of war. On the road leading into Baghdad, 23 miles outside the city, residents tiptoe cautiously across, fearful that they will trigger unexploded ordnance.

On Tuesday, warplanes dropped cluster bombs on this area, and since then, residents said, children have died from playing with unexploded bomblets.

"Please, please, help the children," said Hatham Fathi, 26, asking that U.S. troops come back and clean up the road.

But for most Baghdad residents, the looting presents the greatest dangers.

Ibrahim Elias, 53, is a security guard who was beaten and shot Thursday when he tried to stop a group from cleaning out some neighborhood shops.

His friends could not even take him to a hospital because the hospitals have been looted of drugs and supplies, even of their windows.

"We're just trying to help these people out," Dillbeck said as he sent a medic to aid Elias. "It's still very much a war zone."

Times staff writer Sergei L. Loiko contributed to this report.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 12 April 2003 - 12:58 PM.


#852 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 01:11 PM

This article outlines only a few of the difficulties that we now face that many of us have been trying to get everyone to pay attention to all along. Talk is cheap if events are being manipulated to FORCE a resolution in the battlefield regardless of how this will effect not just that country but the region and much of the world.

Anyone who says they are so sure of this course that nothing can wrong are either fools or liars. The path being chosen needs to be moderated before we indulge the most dangerous fantasies of our own Neo-Hawks.

http://www.latimes.c...,1,334667.story

April 12, 2003
WAR WITH IRAQ
Profound Lack of Trust Discolors Iraq's Future
Rivalry between exiles and those who stayed may threaten efforts at self-governance.

By Mark Magnier, Times Staff Writer

ZUBAYR, Iraq -- As their country takes its first tentative steps toward self-government, Iraqis are voicing their distrust of one another, underscoring the difficulty of pulling together many tribes, regions and visions of the future into a cohesive whole.

Iraqis who fled Saddam Hussein's regime can't possibly understand the people's suffering, say those who stayed behind. Iraqis who stayed behind can't possibly understand democracy, say those who left. Tribal leaders were too close to Hussein; religious leaders don't care about anyone but their own small circles, rivals say.

In some cases, the attacks have been more than verbal, as seen Thursday when two opposing Shiite leaders were shot to death in a mosque in Najaf after supporters clashed during a meeting meant to bring reconciliation.

The complexities of creating a workable democracy in Iraq, at least in these early days and weeks, are embodied in two men: Sheik Muzahim, a religious leader tapped by the British government to administer a portion of southern Iraq, and Ahmad Chalabi, a longtime expatriate who many in the Pentagon hope will emerge as the head of a transitional authority.

Muzahim is willing to accept some former Baath Party members in a new government, while Chalabi's position is that of zero tolerance. Yet Muzahim is derided for his ties to the former regime, while Chalabi is mocked as an outsider.

Muzahim is a member of the Tammimi tribe, which makes its home in the town of Zubayr outside Basra. Before the Friday prayer, tribal leaders and supporters gathered to discuss politics -- and to slam inbound Iraqi expatriates. These returnees hoping to seize power after years abroad represent the "opposition of the five-star hotels," said Mansour Tammimi, an advisor to Muzahim.

On the contrary, said Chalabi, a longtime exile and head of the London-based Iraqi National Congress opposition group. At another meeting about 100 miles away later in the day, he sat on an Army cot at his supporters' Free Iraqi Forces camp in Nasiriyah. The only people who mounted effective opposition to Hussein during the dictator's reign, Chalabi said, were those living overseas.

Muzahim has advocated that district police chiefs return to work despite their close ties to Hussein's Baath regime, arguing that law and order outweigh a full airing of past sins.

Chalabi, a strong advocate of purges and "de-Baathification," sees no room for compromise.

"That's the same argument in Germany after the fall of the Nazis," he said. "The idea that the Baathists can make the trains run on time doesn't hold water."

How it will be resolved remains to be seen, as politicians criticize religious leaders and ordinary people complain they're not being consulted.

U.S. officials said Friday that they would convene a meeting Tuesday in Nasiriyah to discuss the formation of an interim authority.

One fault line that has not yet opened, despite broad-based fears, has been the division between Sunni Muslims, who comprise about 32% of the population -- including Hussein and most of his regime -- and the majority Shiites, who make up about 65% of Iraqis and dominate the south. The division was the backdrop for the protracted 1980s war between Iraq and Shiite-dominated Iran.

"There's no problem between Sunnis and Shiites," said Jawad Khudeir, a 35-year-old trader, as he waited in front of a British military installation for news about his brother, who was injured in a grenade accident. "I'm a Sunni, but I would have no trouble supporting a Shiite president if he were just."

Still, Iraqis say, the general lack of trust seen elsewhere in society shouldn't come as a surprise, given the Hussein regime's long-standing and largely effective practice of exploiting regional, ethnic and religious differences to maintain its supremacy.

A related and fundamental question for any future leader, meanwhile, is how far to pursue members of Hussein's Baath regime even as many attempt to flee or slip into the local population. At issue is how to balance the need for justice against a desire to avoid a witch hunt, given that many Iraqis joined the party for no other reason than to get a decent job.

Tammimi, an attorney, sat in a large meeting room at the front of his family's house, ringed by dozens of men on carpets and chairs beneath framed phrases from the Koran.

Tammimi argued that Iraq needs elections, perhaps in a year, after water and electricity have been restored and other repairs have been made. Iraq is vulnerable right now and needs help, he said.

"It's like someone who is dead and everyone's fighting over the inheritance," Tammimi said. "We need someone to figure out who's going to pay for the funeral."

Outside the house, however, several passersby said they thought rule under Muzahim would be a mistake. On Thursday, people threw rocks and demonstrated out front.

"These people, the Tammimis, are not good," said Naser Awad, 27, a mechanic. "Sheik Muzahim advised Saddam Hussein, resulting in the killing of a lot of people."

Nathan Abd, 36, pointed at the rooftop of the Tammimi house, where several men stood guard with machine guns.

"Yesterday there was a demonstration with rocks, but today it could be with machine guns," he said. "How can he say he's representing the people if he's hiding behind guns?"

A bit closer to Baghdad, in Nasiriyah, Chalabi returned from a sunset trip to the nearby ruins of Ur, sat down beside a floodlight powered by a noisy generator and outlined his vision of the future.

Chalabi said many Iraqi tribal leaders benefited from the Hussein regime. Now they're hiding senior members of the Baath Party who did them favors in the past. The Baathists must be driven out, he said, without taking actions that result in bloodletting.

"We must agree to destroy the Baath Party, but agree also not to carry out violence against individual Baathists," he said.

Hunar Hassan, 37, a member of Chalabi's Free Iraqi Forces, said the overseas crowd has a broader perspective.

"If you rely on leaders in Iraq, you just change one Saddam Hussein for another Saddam Hussein," he said. "All he taught people here to do was how to be dictators, kill, steal and create problems between Sunni and Shiite Muslims."

#853 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 01:32 PM

We are all too comfortable with our military might because we hold the position of "Overwhelming Force", the Diplomatic arena is more arcane and uncomfortable for most Americans because we are less prepared, less dominant of this inheritantly more equal ground for conflict but that is the point.


I am not comfortable at all with military might used for war. War is very uncomfortable for me to say the least.

I cannot stress this point enough being a Nam Vet. People not only die but are also blinded as well as paralyzed for life. Yesterday's paralyzed Vet is soon forgotten just like the unaccounted for POWs.

In the war with Iraq, there were casualties.

Let me take it from the top *again*. I was neutral going into this discussion about going to war with Iraq. I really did not want to go to war and asked for options on this Forum. Unfortunately, it was very sad that no realistic options were offerred other than going to war with Iraq. The Sanctions were far too costly in Iraqi lives, caused too much hatred towards America in the Middle East and flat out were not working.

The cost of war was to both the US soldiers who were killed or wounded as well as the Iraqi people who were killed or wounded. People were permanently disabled from that war. Some Iraqi soldiers were forced to fight and die simply because extreemists from their neighboring countries came in and forced them to fight at gun point.

I am very sad. It hurts. War brings back terrible memories. It represents nightmears that would not go away for many decades.

I also feel very badly for the unaccounted POWs from this war who are being neglected not only in this Forum but the media as well.

What we are discussing is Saddam's regime which was built upon atrocities, fear and lies. This fear even intimidated the US's media coverage regarding Saddam's regime. That serial kill called Saddam had to go.

What we are also discussing is the cover-up of the US's own media regarding the many atrocities committed by Saddam's regime.

If we want to prevent war, we need to prevent injustice as much as possible. Turning a blind eye to injustice is not an answer, nor is not reporting injustice an answer. There is a way to provide information without providing specific sources or endangering lives.

Check out this reality below.

bob


http://www.nytimes.c...&partner=GOOGLE

Posted ImagePosted Image

The News We Kept to Ourselves
By EASON JORDAN


ATLANTA — Over the last dozen years I made 13 trips to Baghdad to lobby the government to keep CNN's Baghdad bureau open and to arrange interviews with Iraqi leaders. Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard — awful things that could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff.

For example, in the mid-1990's one of our Iraqi cameramen was abducted. For weeks he was beaten and subjected to electroshock torture in the basement of a secret police headquarters because he refused to confirm the government's ludicrous suspicion that I was the Central Intelligence Agency's Iraq station chief. CNN had been in Baghdad long enough to know that telling the world about the torture of one of its employees would almost certainly have gotten him killed and put his family and co-workers at grave risk.

Working for a foreign news organization provided Iraqi citizens no protection. The secret police terrorized Iraqis working for international press services who were courageous enough to try to provide accurate reporting. Some vanished, never to be heard from again. Others disappeared and then surfaced later with whispered tales of being hauled off and tortured in unimaginable ways. Obviously, other news organizations were in the same bind we were when it came to reporting on their own workers.

We also had to worry that our reporting might endanger Iraqis not on our payroll. I knew that CNN could not report that Saddam Hussein's eldest son, Uday, told me in 1995 that he intended to assassinate two of his brothers-in-law who had defected and also the man giving them asylum, King Hussein of Jordan. If we had gone with the story, I was sure he would have responded by killing the Iraqi translator who was the only other participant in the meeting. After all, secret police thugs brutalized even senior officials of the Information Ministry, just to keep them in line (one such official has long been missing all his fingernails).

Still, I felt I had a moral obligation to warn Jordan's monarch, and I did so the next day. King Hussein dismissed the threat as a madman's rant. A few months later Uday lured the brothers-in-law back to Baghdad; they were soon killed.

I came to know several Iraqi officials well enough that they confided in me that Saddam Hussein was a maniac who had to be removed. One Foreign Ministry officer told me of a colleague who, finding out his brother had been executed by the regime, was forced, as a test of loyalty, to write a letter of congratulations on the act to Saddam Hussein. An aide to Uday once told me why he had no front teeth: henchmen had ripped them out with pliers and told him never to wear dentures, so he would always remember the price to be paid for upsetting his boss. Again, we could not broadcast anything these men said to us.

Last December, when I told Information Minister Muhammad Said al-Sahhaf that we intended to send reporters to Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq, he warned me they would "suffer the severest possible consequences." CNN went ahead, and in March, Kurdish officials presented us with evidence that they had thwarted an armed attack on our quarters in Erbil. This included videotaped confessions of two men identifying themselves as Iraqi intelligence agents who said their bosses in Baghdad told them the hotel actually housed C.I.A. and Israeli agents. The Kurds offered to let us interview the suspects on camera, but we refused, for fear of endangering our staff in Baghdad.

Then there were the events that were not unreported but that nonetheless still haunt me. A 31-year-old Kuwaiti woman, Asrar Qabandi, was captured by Iraqi secret police occupying her country in 1990 for "crimes," one of which included speaking with CNN on the phone. They beat her daily for two months, forcing her father to watch. In January 1991, on the eve of the American-led offensive, they smashed her skull and tore her body apart limb by limb. A plastic bag containing her body parts was left on the doorstep of her family's home.

I felt awful having these stories bottled up inside me. Now that Saddam Hussein's regime is gone, I suspect we will hear many, many more gut-wrenching tales from Iraqis about the decades of torment. At last, these stories can be told freely.

Eason Jordan is chief news executive at CNN.

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 02:08 PM.


#854 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 01:35 PM

http://story.news.ya...lm_in_the_chaos
Seeking Calm in the Chaos
28 minutes ago The New York Times
By MICHAEL R. GORDON The New York Times

INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, near Baghdad, Iraq (news - web sites), April 11 If the experience of Lt. Col. Alan King and the reservists in 422nd Civil Affairs Battalion is anything to go by, restoring electric power and rescuing Baghdad from the brink of anarchy will be a dangerous task.

When sent in to central Baghdad to inspect a transformer, the soldiers had to brave small-arms fire, an attack by paramilitary forces using rocket-propelled grenades and a street deliberately drenched in flammable diesel fuel.

After two days, and with protection from six Bradley fighting vehicles, Colonel King's team finally carried out the inspection today. It was a small event in a big war, but one that illustrates the complex mission of American troops who are in the Iraqi capital and other cities, yet must continue to take as yet unconquered territory, including President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s hometown of Tikrit.

From the start, the American military has understood that it would be necessary to provide order so that Iraq could be rebuilt after the war. Reconstruction is the fourth phase of the allied military plan. It is a crucial stage of the operation and is supposed to follow the third phase, combat operations to defeat and oust Mr. Hussein and his government.

But Baghdad seems to be in what might be called phase three and a half. The government's hold on power has been broken and its army routed. But pockets of die-hards are still trying to pick off American troops. Looting has been rampant. Tonight, the Ministry of Planning burned, its flames lighting up the horizon.

In Basra, a measure of order has already been established. British troops are carrying out joint patrols with the local police, and even thwarted a bank robbery today. But Baghdad is more complex.

With an estimated population of 4.5 million, it is far larger than Basra. The fact that Baghdad served as headquarters for Mr. Hussein's government means that large numbers of fedayeen paramilitary troops, Special Security Organization intelligence operatives and Special Republican Guard soldiers were present, and some of them apparently continue to hide out in small pockets of the city.

Helping to restore order in Baghdad is just one task confronting an American force that is stretched thin, with various duties. For example, taking Tikrit in the near future will necessarily involve diverting forces from the still-insecure Iraqi capital.

The basic American plan for Baghdad calls for the restoration of power and water service, the identification and protection of key installations and the establishment of law and order (news - Y! TV) so that it will be safe for nongovernmental organizations and the United States and other governments to provide aid.

That plan is still intact. Lt. Gen. David McKiernan, the chief of the allied land command and the senior military officer charged with establishing order in the immediate aftermath of the war, arrived at this airport tonight.

"At this point the oppression is gone, and it is time to move forward to help the Iraqi people return to normalcy," said Maj. Adrian Bogart, the deputy chief of civil military operations in General McKiernan's command. "In order to do so, we have to provide the conditions so that humanitarian aid can flow unhampered."

Two C-130 transport planes full of medical supplies donated by Kuwait arrived here tonight, an event that The American authorities sought to publicize. But it was just a small down payment on the assistance that will ultimately be needed.

The experience of the 422nd Civil Affairs Battalion provides a graphic illustration of how lawless the capital can be. The battalion is made up of reservists and was sent to Iraq from North Carolina. One of its first tasks was to check a transformer in Baghdad. It seemed like a routine mission.

On Wednesday, Colonel King led a convoy of four Humvees to the transformer, which is situated in the Firdos district. The reception along much of the route was friendly. Iraqis cheered the Americans.

But soon after the column rolled past a cheering crowd, it came under small-arms fire. The soldiers decided to turn back, only to run into an ambush by two men who were armed with rocket-propelled grenades and hiding near a traffic circle. The Americans saw the attack coming and opened fire. "We got one of them," the colonel said.

But one Iraqi did manage to fire a rocket-propelled grenade, which exploded on the sidewalk as the Humvees drove by.

Today, Colonel King arranged for six Bradley fighting vehicles to accompany him and his soldiers as they sought again to inspect the transformer. When they approached the site, they noticed that the street was wet with diesel fuel. A fuel tanker was also parked nearby.

The soldiers were worried that paramilitary forces were laying a trap: the fuel and the fuel truck might be ignited as the Americans drove by, turning the street into a giant firebomb. The American column quickly turned around and left. It finally reached the transformer this afternoon using another route.

Colonel King said that the transformer was in good shape and that the Iraqi official who was overseeing it said he had arranged for the fuel to be spilled onto the street to discourage unwanted visitors. It was an explanation impossible to verify, but if true, seemed a dangerous, almost desperate measure to achieve a measure of security for the installation.

After their experience on the streets of Baghdad, the civil affairs soldiers know that restoring essential services can be as risky as waging war.

"Yesterday, we found bunkers and R.P.G.'s and launchers," he recalled. "A guy can walk into a bunker, take a shot and then walk out as if it never happened."

#855 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 02:02 PM

If we want to prevent war, we need to prevent injustice as much as possible. Turning a blind eye to injustice is not an answer, nor is not reporting injustice an answer. There is a way to provide information without providing specific sources or endangering lives.


I have not turned a blind eye Bob, I have tried to prevent this from happening because I understood that we would have no one to negotiate with after, no trail to follow to find our own. In the chaos of a Wildfire we must first (barring a concrete lead as in the case of Pvt. Lynch's story) fight the fire. This chaos is a firestorm that can even spread across borders and it was always the real threat we faced.

Second, I am sorry but this HAS been a story about the legitimacy of the preemptive use of unilateral force all along and there was no ability to raise alternative strategies because quite frankly, it was too late and no one was listening anyway. Also I read the article the first time you posted it and when it came out but I for one noticed a cover up back when Rumsfield himself glossed over the atrocities about Halabja. Even after '91 there was a concerted effort on the part of some in THIS Administration to see if they could just get Saddam to moderate his excess and come back into their fold.

There is another side to this that you are missing, news services that are not "necessarilly" mainstream have been covering the atrocities and problems all along like NPR, Pacifica, PBS, BBC, and even New York Times but in all fairness THEY FELL ON DEAF EARS.

So stop saying where were you?

My father inlaw was arrested for demonstrating in Madison over five years ago against the policy of Containment and remote bombing of Iraq. I know people that have written letter after letter to just get ignored and please stop thinking that all of us that protest were just gladly driving our children to daycare and ignoring the plight of Iraq because BOTH REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC Administrations have been complicit and singleminded in their objective and policy in this regard and didn't entertain any suggestions at all until after 9/11. Then they decided to make an example of Iraq and the debate we waged here in this forum in fact parallels the debate between the Pentagon and State departments almost to the letter. But in the midst of this there have been individual groups like Doctors Without Borders, Voices in the Wilderness, Amnesty International, the UN Commision on Human Rights Abuse and numerous others that have issued report after report that went largely ignored by the general public as well as our politicians.

I know because I read those reports as they were published, not just yesterday. I have been aware for twelve years about what was going on and when I tried to engage someone in serious discussion about substantive issues they basically told me to change the subject to something important like fashion, television, party politics, or the economy. I haven't ignored any of this Bob and I won't but if we want to go after our POW's then we need to find a trail because all the records went up in smoke and they were probably captured by irregulars to begin with. we aren't facing the enemy we want, we must face the enemy that is. The first enemy right now is the chaos.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 12 April 2003 - 02:05 PM.


#856 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 02:09 PM

Posted Image
ANTHONY SUAU FOR TIME
SOLD OUT? A young Kurdish refugee who fled Iraqi persecution after Gulf War I

http://www.time.com/...0414/npast.html

Did the U.S. Betray Iraqis in 1991?

George H.W. Bush urged Iraqis to rebel, yet stood back while Saddam crushed the uprising

By Douglas Waller | Washington

Posted Sunday, April 6, 2003; 1:32 p.m. EST
It has often been repeated that the reason Iraqis haven't greeted American forces with flowers and smiles is that the U.S. failed to come to the aid of those Iraqis who—with the encouragement of the first President Bush—revolted after Desert Storm in 1991. And the U.S. stood by when Saddam Hussein crushed the rebellion.

What did happen in 1991? It's a sad story of false hopes and serious miscalculations. After the U.S. evicted Iraqi forces from Kuwait, George Herbert Walker Bush had no intention of marching the U.S. Army to Baghdad to topple Saddam. He had promised the Arabs in the war coalition that he would push Saddam's army back into Iraq—that's all.

That didn't mean Bush Sr. wanted Saddam to remain in power. Pentagon planners were prepared to finish him off with Air Force bombing or special-ops commandos if they could find him. And if U.S. forces could not get to him, Bush had made it no secret that he would be more than happy if others did the job.

On Feb. 15, 1991, as the Desert Storm air campaign blasted Iraqi defenses in Kuwait, Bush flew to Andover, Mass., for a rally at the Raytheon plant, which manufactured the Patriot Air Defense System. In the middle of a rousing speech, he noted, almost as an aside, "There's another way for the bloodshed to stop, and this is for the Iraqi military and the Iraqi people to take matters into their own hands and force Saddam Hussein, the dictator, to step aside."

This was a notion trumpeted by other Administration officials as well, but what they and Bush had in mind was encouraging senior leaders of the Iraqi army or Baath Party to revolt. "We didn't expect a general public uprising," says a former Bush aide.

It was the Shi'ites in southern Iraq and the Kurds in the north—both of whom had long been subjugated by Saddam—who took Bush's words to heart. They began their revolt on March 1, just one day after Bush halted the war. But Saddam's battered Republican Guard divisions in the south quickly refashioned themselves and attacked Shi'ite guerrillas. Meanwhile, in the north, several Iraqi divisions moved to crush the Kurdish rebellion. The U.S. inadvertently helped Saddam annihilate the rebels by agreeing in the cease-fire deal negotiated by General Norman Schwarzkopf to allow Iraqi generals to continue flying their helicopters—a mistake because Saddam then used them to strafe rebels on the ground.

Desperate Shi'ite and Kurdish leaders begged the U.S. military for help. But Colin Powell, then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, wanted U.S. troops safely home, not mired in what might become a messy civil war. Secretary of State James Baker feared the "Lebanonization of Iraq." His nightmare: Iraqi Shi'ites, aligned with Iran's fundamentalist Shi'ites, would carve out the south; Sunni Muslims would hold the center; and Kurds, who long craved an independent state, would capture the north, upsetting Turkey, which feared revolt from its own Kurdish population.

American pilots flying over southern Iraq held their fire as the Republican Guard massacred Shi'ites on the ground. Bush refrained from aiding Kurdish rebels in the north, although he finally sent troops and relief supplies to protect hundreds of thousands of fleeing Kurds who were in danger of freezing or starving to death.

Bush has never regretted his decision not to intervene. It's debatable whether he could have given the Shi'ites and Kurds enough firepower to topple Saddam without American soldiers' being sucked into a civil war. These days George W. Bush bristles when others question whether the U.S. betrayed the Iraqis. But the decision of the father not to intervene has become a handy way for some of his son's allies to explain why the cheering for U.S. soldiers has so far been muted.

#857 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 02:13 PM

Members of my wife's family were totured and then murdered by the thugs carrying out the policy of a brutal tyranical government.

In a tyranical dictatorship, no charges need to be filed, no phone call privledges need to be granted from jail and no trials are required. Injustice is merely carried out.

Unless it happens to you, you will not understand. It took me a long time to understand and I probably still do not because this did not directly happen to me and my immediate family.

Count your blessing for living in this wonderful country called the USA. I do everyday but still do not appreciate this country the way my wife does.

And yes, I believe the US should have intervened in 1991 in Iraq. Far too many Iraqis have died because of turning a blind eye on that tyrannical serial killer called Saddam.

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 02:36 PM.


#858 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 02:22 PM

I am not comfortable at all with military might used for war. War is very uncomfortable for me to say the least.


Sorry if you you took "we" to mean you and me, it includes us but I should have capitalized it as in We the People. I seek opinion from many sources, my local bar, the Town Hall, the Volunteer Firemens's Picnic, the work place, the Op/ed page of not just the press I like but those of the NY POst and the Rush Limbaugh's as well. I have notice a steadfast and determined march toward a war footing since the Clinton Administration so in that sense I don't just hold Bush responsible. This is a Democracy We are all responsible, and in that sense so are you and I.

I understand what you went through I have worked with, and have friends that are Vets with Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. I have spent more than one sleepless night on suicide watch; so get this straight, I am on your side.

I have fought this entire process because I feel the strategy will yield more harm than good. I have felt all along that there ARE alternatives that go largely ignored and our lackluster and OBVIOUSLY token efforts at diplomatic solutions should indicate that that path was treated as irrelevant.

I will say this, as in any firestorm there will come a break in the coming weeks and I do not believe it is as yet too late to shift this aspect of our tactics to ones that may yet bear fruit in the true search for justice.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 12 April 2003 - 02:24 PM.


#859 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 02:32 PM

I will not compare scars with you in public Bob, nor do I think it fruitful. I express my gratitude for being born of this land through Service and Participation and I feel blind allegiance is anathema to our cause.

But I will say that a large portion of my "Old World" family were killed in the Holocaust and I got to listen to the survivors who were my father's patients as they tried to make some little sense of their experience to the curious little boy who wanted to know why they had numbers tatooed on their arms. I have personally seen what some like your wife's family suffered because as I said before, I was homeschooled in the study forensics. I have seen not just pictures but the bodies of some victims and I stand my ground on this issue for that very reason.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 12 April 2003 - 02:36 PM.


#860 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 02:39 PM

But I will say that a large portion of my "Old World" family were killed in the Holocaust and I got to listen to the survivors who were my father's patients as they tried to make some little sense of their experience to the curious little boy who wanted to know why they had numbers tatooed on their arms.


So were a few of my distant relatives that I never got the opportunity to meet.

Yes, and I did hear the first hand reports such as putting a person in a barrel of water when the temperature was freezing during the night. The water in the barrel had turned to ice the next day.

And I also did see the numbers tatooed on their arms.

The difference is Hitler is history while other tyranical dictators are still alive and well. The atrocities continue to this day.

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 03:06 PM.


#861 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 02:42 PM

I understand what you went through I have worked with, and have friends that are Vets with Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. I have spent more than one sleepless night on suicide watch; so get this straight, I am on your side.


Suicide was never a consideration nor option.

Back in my era, they didn't have fancy titles such as PTSS. You just "lived" with it and "snapped back".

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 02:51 PM.


#862 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 02:48 PM

Back in era, they didn't have fancy titles such a PTSS. You just "lived" with it and "snapped back".


Or had a friend who cared and was willing to face you when crazed and armed to take your weapon away and give you shelter from the storm.

#863 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 02:58 PM

Or had a friend who cared and was willing to face you when crazed and armed to take your weapon away and give you shelter from the storm.


Lazarus Long,

Posted Image

The Iowa Jima landing was just one of the landings my Uncle Jack served on


My Uncle Jack, who served in the Pacific, lost his very best friend during one of the landings.

My Uncle Jack was a great guy. I remember playing ball with him and my friends saying what a great player he was even though he was well past his prime.

But the PTSS got to him. I could tell this when he confided in me.

My Uncle Jack died of a heart attack when he was about 40.

I miss my Uncle Jack. We shared a common interest in sports.

My Uncle Jack taught me what he could not do himself, and that is how to be a survivor and appreciate what I have. I am forever greatful to my Uncle Jack.

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 03:17 PM.


#864 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 03:43 PM

Posted Image

"See, Hear, Speak No Evil"


The coverup of murder, rape and torture is inexcusable.

bob


http://www.rushlimba...ctor.guest.html


Posted Image

CNN Knew Of Saddam's Evil, Did Not Report (excerpts)

April 11, 2003



Eason Jordan has unburdened himself with some guilt that he has been carrying around for over a decade, knowledge of atrocities committed against average Iraqis by the Saddam Hussein regime. We're talking about murders, rapes, and tortures. He feels now it's safe to reveal what he knows, given the regime is no more, and can inflict no more harm on people. He writes of unspeakable acts committed by Saddam's regime, which he knew about and did not report, because it would have endangered CNN's people and other sources in Iraq.

Folks, even if he needed to protect his people in Iraq, and there is a degree to which a company's desire to do this is understandable, that does not explain the way CNN covered all of this. You had the president of the United States and his administration, almost daily for the past year, not only talking about weapons of mass destruction, but also talking about the atrocities and the evils committed against the population of this country. It seems to me that Mr. Jordan could have taken his lead anchors, such as Judy Woodruff, Aaron Brown and others aside and maybe without revealing specifics, say, "Look, be very careful here in doubting what is said about atrocities." I don't know that he didn't do this, but it would be hard to conclude that he did based on CNN's coverage. If you read what he wrote today and then you compare it to CNN's coverage, there's no connection!

The fact is we've known about the inhumanity of this regime for years, and now it turns out so did Eason Jordan on a firsthand, personal basis.

If Eason Jordan knew this stuff, other news executives and reporters knew it, too. It's hard to believe Mr. Jordan kept all this to himself. No matter how much evidence of atrocities and inhumanity were presented to the mainstream media and to the liberals of this country, they were not moved. They were not moved, and Mr. Jordan's piece in the New York Times means that he wasn't, either. They knew what was going on in those prisons and torture rooms. They knew of the experiments. They knew of the rapes. However it doesn't appear they were moved by this depravity.

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 04:04 PM.


#865 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 03:52 PM

Posted Image
BBC

"Saddam's secret police have been accused of torturing children" - Quote from BBC article: Saturday, 22 June, 2002, 11:26 GMT 12:26 UK - Iraq's tortured children


In order for a given tyrant to remain in power, that tyrant needs enablers.

That serial killer called Saddam had far too many enablers.

bob



http://www.rushlimba...cnn_.guest.html

Who’s Responsible For More Deaths, Enron or CNN? (excerpts)

April 11, 2003


Eason Jordan’s New York Times op/ed generated some fascinating e-mails on Friday. I was literally deluged with them, however one e-mailer in particular just nailed it, and nailed it, and nailed it, and kept on nailing it.


Posted Image


One has to wonder how many lives might have been saved if the press had told the truth about the torture in Iraq. What really angers me is how so many of these news outlets pretended there was no or little basis to the torture stories. Now, all of a sudden, they tell the truth. Perhaps if they had closed their bureaus and gone public with the atrocities, hundreds if not thousands might have been saved.

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 04:07 PM.


#866 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 04:39 PM

Perhaps it would help to look at this article to begin to examine the tendrils of the "embedded media" and their links to the corporate world of Military Industrialism that makes the reporting suspect. When in doubt Bob always follow the money trail. If you do so with the story of contracts and Iraq before, during, and since; you will find a disturbing trend of complicity between our mass Media Sources and the "Ownership" of them and their conflicts of interests.

Oh and this isn't just a domestic concern at all. I am not just talking about Haliburton. The Germans, French and Russians did much more business in Iraq than we did both before AND after the '91 war. But this is another example of Globalization that refuses to be adequately addresed from a purely domestic homegrown unilateral strategy that quite frankly just playsing to the hands of those manipulating events primarilly for their self interest. And they don't particularly care one way or another about children as long as they are "those children, that live over there, and belong to them."

http://story.news.ya.../bs_nm/group_dc

Tensions Build Ahead of G7 Finance Meeting
Fri Apr 11, 7:50 PM ET
By Mark Egan and Glenn Somerville

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Public quibbling among Group of Seven partners ahead of the war with Iraq (news - web sites) has begun anew as talks turn to reconstruction, threatening to hamper efforts to prop up a feeble global recovery.

As G7 finance ministers -- from the United States, Japan, Germany, Britain, Canada, France and Italy -- gathered in Washington for a weekend meeting, there were signs of fresh tension over how to rebuild Iraq and who should take the lead.

Rich nations squabbled for months at the United Nations over how best to tackle weapons inspections in Iraq. That row ended with the United States and Britain heading to war despite stiff opposition from Germany, France and Russia, who wanted the UN to determine how to cope with the country.

Now, analysts say the G7 may be headed toward a new tug-of-war over how to carve up billions of dollars in rebuilding contracts -- again potentially pitting those who led the war against those who opposed it.


"Our reading of history is that no one ever garnered the spoils of war by not fighting," said economist Carl Weinberg of High Frequency Economics Inc. in Valhalla, N.Y.

SNOW SEEKS FRAMEWORK

U.S. Treasury Secretary John Snow, host of the G7 meeting on the fringes of the spring gatherings of the International Monetary Fund (news - web sites) and World Bank (news - web sites), said on Thursday he wants only to shape a "framework" for Iraqi rebuilding, not a final plan.

Japan's Finance Minister Masajuro Shiokawa said after a one-on-one meeting with Snow on Friday that it would be wise to proceed carefully in crafting a revival strategy for Iraq.

"The process shouldn't be rushed, and we think support should involve international cooperation as much as possible," he told reporters after the Snow meeting. "We want to provide humanitarian aid as quickly as possible."

Snow said he wanted the G7 to discuss debt forgiveness for Iraq, which is burdened by debts after decades of bad management under Saddam Hussein (news - web sites). The Center for Strategic and International Studies estimates that debtload at $127 billion owed to countries like Russia, France, Kuwait and others. The United States was not on the CSIS list of creditors.

Sensitivities about Iraq, where the fighting has not even ended, remain tender among the allies and the risk is that political leaders' bruised feelings could spill over to the finance chiefs. President Bush (news - web sites) angered some, especially France and Germany, when he bypassed the UN. Now those countries fear the United States wants to use the World Bank and IMF to lead the reconstruction, denying the UN the top role.

A World Bank official told Reuters on Thursday the British, French and Germans were worried Washington was "using the bank and the fund as a fig leaf for their own unilateral policies."

With Iraq in need of fast humanitarian aid and help simply establishing order, Russian President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) said on Friday it was vital the UN take the lead in crisis management.

"We stand for the fastest return of this issue to the framework of the United Nations," Putin said after talks with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder in St. Petersburg. The two later met French President Jacques Chirac, who, like them, stood against the U.S.-led war on Iraq.

Schroeder put it more bluntly. "Germany will participate in the reconstruction of Iraq only if the United Nations is involved," he said.

Emerging-market nations in the Group of 24 added their call on Friday for a UN-led effort. The G24, whose members include Muslim nations Iran, Pakistan, Egypt, Algeria, Lebanon and Syria, said the IMF and World Bank should play a role but "in full coordination with the UN."

The tussle over Iraq's future comes at a delicate time for the economy -- a period when G7 allies need a cooperative spirit to foster faster growth both globally and domestically. While the IMF forecasts tepid 2003 global economic growth of 3.2 percent, it has warned the risks of a worse outcome are high. The United States and Europe are having a hard time restoring robust growth after the 2001 recession, Japan is stagnant, global stock markets are volatile and worries over potential terrorism look set to linger for years.

"The greater the uncertainty, the greater the need to collaborate; that is our motto," IMF Managing Director Horst Koehler told a news briefing on Thursday. "Now more than ever is the time for the international community to draw on its strong record of cooperation. We have policy options, and we should seize them."

MUST COLLABORATE

But Koehler and World Bank President James Wolfensohn have both made clear they do not want their institutions to be dragged into a political dispute over Iraq. They say they are ready to help, but only if all their shareholders tell them to -- the same countries that belong to the UN.

"For Iraq, we urge the international community to reach cohesiveness on the necessary framework for the rehabilitation of Iraq," Koehler said.

The United States, which as the largest shareholder in both the IMF and World Bank and is often accused of using the lenders as instruments of its own foreign policy, is pushing for them to begin work on Iraq right away. Nor is Iraq the only area where the United States is seen as working almost unilaterally.

The issue of how to deal with nations who cannot pay their debts was supposed to be the centerpiece of this week's IMF meetings. This weekend, the IMF's policy-setting board was set to vote on changes to the lender's constitution to set up a sort of international bankruptcy court. The plan was conceived as a way to avoid messy debt defaults like those in Argentina and Russia in recent years.

But, just ahead of the meeting, the United States pulled the rug out from under the idea despite support for it from 70 percent of the lender's members, including Europe.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 12 April 2003 - 04:45 PM.


#867 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 07:20 PM

In response to how to avoid war with Iraq, the option that kept on coming up was to retain the Containment policy. Continuing the Containment also meant continuing the Sanctions.

What was wrong with continuing the policy of Containment/Sanctions?:

o Sanctions resulted in the death of far too many Iraqi people.
o The results of Sanctions was well publicized in the Middle East and was used to stir up anger against the United States.

While there is evidence that the food for oil program was diverted to Saddam's army and elite, the fact is that Iraqi people died as a result of Sanctions.

When I innitially brought up the negatives on Containment/Sanctions and how it was not a reasonable option on this Forum, this information regarding the deaths of the Iraqi people due to that policy was essentially ignored. What I essentially read was about the "horrors of war" and maintaining the status quo.

The status quo had a huge price in terms of human life and suffering.

That fact is that Saddam's regime based on attrocities, fear and lies needed to be stopped. That serial killer called Saddam no longer rules Iraq. For this I am happy, but there is much more work to do to pacify the civil unrest; insure the Iraqi population gets needed food, water and medical supplies and then commence the transition of turning Iraq into a Free Iraq.

An article, giving the opinions of Rod Driver regarding Sanctions, is shown below.


bob

http://www.sparrowda...om/driver1.html

Meeting the 'enemy' in a brutalized Iraq By ROD DRIVER

Rod Driver is a former Rhode Island state representative and a congressional candidate. He is a retired professor of mathematics at the University of Rhode Island.

Norman Finkelstein, son of survivors of the Warsaw Ghetto, Auschwitz and Maidanek concentration camps, a political theory professor and author of three books on the Nazi holocaust, describes Mr. Driver with the following words: "If more Germans had shown Rod Driver's courage and integrity, there probably wouldn't have been a Nazi holocaust." - Norman Finkelstein, Ph.D


FOR 10 YEARS, Americans have traveled by car or bus to Iraq in defiance of U . S . government prohibitions. But the trip I joined in January, organized by Dr. James Jennings, of Conscience International, was the first "airlift" of Americans carrying humanitarian supplies.

Customs inspectors at the Baghdad airport paid little attention to our luggage -- except for those of us with video cameras. We each had to fill out a declaration form listing our camcorders and the number of videotapes we were carrying. (I can't explain why, because I videotaped freely for the next six days; and when we left the country no one asked about the camcorder, the videotapes or the declaration form.)

Visiting Iraq carries risks. You might get seriously ill from drinking contaminated water from Iraq's bomb-damaged water-treatment plants. You might be killed by American bombs or missiles still falling on Iraq several times a week. You might even die in the crazy Baghdad traffic. Or you could be hassled by Washington for traveling to Iraq without U.S. permission.

What Americans don't have to worry about is the reception of the Iraqi people. The Iraqis welcomed us warmly. They seem to believe that the American people are not responsible for the actions of the American government. Maybe their naive concept of democracy arises from their own lack of voice in their government. This warm reception was typified in a tiny rural village called Toq Al-Ghazalat, about 120 miles south of Baghdad. We had gone there to express our regrets to the family of Omran Jawair, the 13-year-old who, last May 17, had been in a field 200 yards from his home, tending his family ' s sheep, when an American missile landed and exploded in the field. It tore off Omran ' s head, maimed his four companions and killed several sheep.

The houses in Toq Al-Ghazalat are built of mud bricks, and no modern facilities are seen for miles around. It is difficult to guess what could have justified the attack that killed Omran. Suddenly, while we were in the village, American (or possibly British) planes flew overhead. They could be heard, but were too high to see. It was the first time I had heard the sounds of air - raid sirens and hostile planes overhead since I lived in London as a child under Hitler ' s bombardment in the 1940s.

Yet the villagers welcomed us Americans without apparent animosity for Omran ' s death or for the planes overhead that might bomb them at any moment. No bombs or missiles fell on southern Iraq that day. But four days later they did, and six more civilians were killed.

In Baghdad itself , we visited the Amariya bomb shelter. That shelter had been filled with women and children on the night of Feb . 12, 1991, when two U.S. missiles tore through the reinforced-concrete roof. The tragedy of 10 years ago is evidenced by the inch-thick reinforcing rods still twisted like spaghetti where the missiles entered the structure, plus photos of some of the 400 who died that night.

As frightening and deadly as the bombs and missiles are, the greatest suffering is caused by the sanctions that deny Iraq many basic essentials of modern society. In 1996, to ease the civilian suffering, the U.N. began allowing Iraq to sell some of its oil to get money for food, medicine and other necessities.

But here's the way it works. Under the "oil-for-food" program, all the money from these oil sales goes to the U.N., which skims off about a third for "reparations" and "administration." The rest is supposed to buy humanitarian supplies for Iraq. Iraq can negotiate contracts with suppliers of these items. But no contract can be implemented without approval from the U.N. Sanctions Committee. And on this committee the United States and the United Kingdom have veto power. More than $3 billion worth of material, including medical supplies, ambulances and repair parts for pumps and generators, are "on hold" because of U.S. and U.K. objections. Some of the requests date back to January 1998.

Iraq had excellent schools before 1991. But today, schools from elementary through college level lack modern books, computers and other supplies. Even medical books and journals are denied via the U.S. ban on commerce with Iraq. Before the war, Iraqis had perhaps the best medical care in the Arab world, and it was free. Whatever equipment and drugs they needed, they had. But today the hospitals are at the mercy of the Sanctions Committee. When repair parts for vital equipment are denied, hospital personnel do the best they can with makeshift repairs.

At Al Mansour Hospital -- one of Iraq's best -- the administrator gratefully accepted the meager medical supplies we had brought. Children in that hospital are dying of respiratory diseases because Iraq's bombed oxygen factories cannot meet the needs for oxygen. Other children are succumbing to gastrointestinal disease, malnutrition and even measles. The hospital lacks chemotherapy supplies, antibiotics and even pain killers. Mothers stay in the hospital day and night with their children. The hospital lacks sufficient staff to care for patients without help from the families. We saw one mother connecting a new drip bag to a vein in her daughter's foot.

In the corridor, a man carried the body of his daughter, who had died earlier that morning. He was going from place to place to satisfy the red tape to get a death certificate so that, in the Muslim tradition, he could bury her the same day. Outside the hospital, a woman was led away wailing in distress. Her seven-year-old daughter had just died of a congenital heart defect because the hospital lacked facilities for surgery to correct it.

Anyone who believes that Arabs don't value human life should see the parents in hospitals day and night caring for their sick children. Parents are totally devastated, as you or I would be, when their children die.

Not all Iraqis are Muslims. On Sunday, in Baghdad, several in our group attended the evening service of a large Presbyterian church. Without understanding Arabic, we could appreciate the upbeat music. And once again, we were greeted with warmth and friendship.


SEVERAL TIMES in recent years, Westerly has experienced polluted water. Residents were advised to boil water as recently as December. Pawtucket and other communities have experienced similar crises, especially in the summer.

But imagine that a foreign power had bombed our sewage-treatment and water-purification plants, and then prevented us from buying the repair parts to restore the facilities or the chlorine to operate them properly. That's what Iraq and its 22 million people face.

A major sewage-treatment plant in Baghdad is operating far below capacity because needed parts to repair or maintain pumps are delayed or denied by the U . N . Sanctions Committee. (Translation: The United States uses its veto power to block delivery of the needed parts.) So some of the untreated sewage goes directly into the Tigris River. Downstream, water is pumped back out of the river into a "water-purification" plant. The bomb damage at this plant has mostly been repaired, but chlorine is denied, delayed or restricted by the Sanctions Committee.

U.S. and other foreign visitors in Iraq drink only bottled water and avoid raw vegetables and salads, even at the deluxe Al Rashid hotel , in Baghdad. A 11/2-liter bottle of mineral water costs 30 cents to $1. For a typical Iraqi,that is out of the question. Even a physician or an engineer gets only $3 or $4 a month. So tens of thousands of Iraqi infants and children are suffering or dying from dysentery, chronic diarrhea and the resulting malnutrition, or from other water-borne diseases.

In the controversy over sanctions, supporters and opponents tend to agree on two things: (1) Innocent people, especially children, are paying a terrible price, while (2) Saddam Hussein and his cronies are scarcely inconvenienced. In fact, the greater the hardships imposed on Iraqis from outside, the more that Saddam looks like a hero to them.

Some of us wanted to go to Basra in southern Iraq to deliver medical supplies to a hospital there. This meant flying through one of Washington's "no-fly zones." (The "no-fly zones" are creations of the United States and Britain. They are not approved by the United Nations.) We reasoned that American forces would not shoot down another large airliner full of civilians as they did on July 3, 1988. In that incident, the Vincennes downed an Iranian passenger plane, killing the 290 people on board. That tragedy occurred when we were backing Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran.

The physician who greeted us at the maternity and pediatrics hospital in Basra gets only one type of antibiotic and not much of that. If six patients need antibiotics, he must choose two who will get it; and they get it for only two days. A girl with a respiratory ailment was receiving industrial oxygen for lack of medically-pure oxygen. And, worse than that, the hospital lacked the appropriate fittings, controls and gauges for administering oxygen. So they had rigged up ordinary plastic tubing held together with tape for insertion into the patient's nasal passages. Then they had to estimate how much they were giving her.

The hospital suffers power failures two or three times a week. By the time back-up generators are started it may be too late for some patients. (Just one power outage in Rhode Island a couple of years ago cost the life of a hospital patient on life support.) Under the term "infrastructure," U.S. and British bombers and missiles have deliberately targeted power plants as well as water-treatment plants.

A tiny boy named Hassan in the hospital in Basra is about the age of my youngest grandson, Austin. Austin is an energetic three-year-old, confident he can do anything. He loves cars and planes and construction. His construction project might include pounding nails in a board or trying to rearrange the gravel in his grandparents' driveway. Austin has been a frequent visitor to the emergency room: When his hammer missed the nail and smashed his finger, when his parents first discovered that he was dangerously allergic to peanuts, when help was needed to remove the head of a deer tick from his arm. But within hours of visiting a hospital, Austin is running around as though nothing had happened.

By contrast, three-year-old Hassan lay helplessly in his hospital bed. His severely malnourished body weighed 15 pounds, less than half of Austin's weight. Hassan's diarrhea and vomiting made food almost useless. Since the veins in his arms and legs were no longer useable, an intravenous line protruded from his forehead for administering medicine. The boy's mother stays in the hospital day and night trying to comfort her son and keep the flies off him. The tiny boy, apparently on the brink of death, tried not to cry as his mother kissed him and offered him a drink.

In a bed nearby, eight-year-old Ahmed was about the age of another of my grandsons. Jason enjoys soccer, computer games and sleepovers with his buddies. Ahmed is blind and suffers from a brain tumor and lymphoma. His family is from an area in southern Iraq heavily contaminated by radioactive dust from the explosion of depleted-uranium weapons used by U.S. forces in the 1991 war. Cancers and grotesque birth defects, virtually unknown before the war, have become epidemic in this area.

Ahmed was singing bravely while both his mother and father stayed at his bedside. Ahmed's cancer has reached the point where food is repugnant to him. Chemotherapy for cancer patients should be administered directly to large blood vessels using so-called "central lines." But the hospital cannot get "central lines." So Ahmed's treatments were being administered through smaller surface vessels. This had become such a painful process that Ahmed started crying when he thought someone was coming to give another dose. Ahmed's father gently wiped the tears from his son's eyes.

When Ahmed got out of bed, another problem was evident. His belly was the size of a large beach ball because of "ascites" -- retention of fluids because of liver damage. A few years ago, I watched my brother suffer similar agonizing symptoms in the final weeks of his battle with liver cancer. (My brother was 58, not eight.) Ahmed's childhood has been taken, and soon the rest of his life will be too.

U.N. humanitarian representatives whom we met in Baghdad have appealed repeatedly to the Sanctions Committee, especially the U.S. representative, asking that humanitarian supplies be released. And since 1998 several high U.N. officials in Iraq have resigned their posts in dismay at what sanctions are doing to the Iraqis and their society.

A spokesman for the U.N. Office of the Iraq Program tells me that a few months ago the Sanctions Committee agreed to allow antibiotics, central lines and blood bags to be approved "fast track" for Iraq, and that chlorine is "slowly being released." However, valves and gauges for administering oxygen and the parts needed to restore the water-treatment facilities are still "on hold."

We are told that Saddam Hussein might be developing weapons of mass destruction and he must be overthrown. We somehow rationalize that the embargo that has killed more than a million innocent Iraqis is not a weapon of mass destruction. And we have forgotten that it was the United States that provided Saddam Hussein with weapons, including chemical and biological, in the 1980s. We have also forgotten that in 1991, at our urging, Iraqis did try to overthrow Saddam. But, when it appeared that the rebellion might succeed, the United States suddenly came to his rescue, sabotaging the rebellion, because we weren't sure his successor would be compliant with America.

I have to believe that the American people wouldn't tolerate the embargo for another week if they could see what it is doing to innocent human beings, especially children who weren't even born at the time of the Gulf War.


Posted Image

Several days after submitting this editorial opinion to the Providence Journal, Rod Driver learned that Hassan had died.

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 07:56 PM.


#868 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 07:34 PM

Oh and this isn't just a domestic concern at all. I am not just talking about Haliburton. The Germans, French and Russians did much more business in Iraq than we did both before AND after the '91 war. But this is another example of Globalization that refuses to be adequately addresed from a purely domestic homegrown unilateral strategy that quite frankly just playsing to the hands of those manipulating events primarilly for their self interest. And they don't particularly care one way or another about children as long as they are "those children, that live over there, and belong to them."


Lazarus Long,

You definitely have the right to your speculations such as:

But this is another example of Globalization that refuses to be adequately addresed from a purely domestic homegrown unilateral strategy that quite frankly just playsing to the hands of those manipulating events primarilly for their self interest.  And they don't particularly care one way or another about children as long as they are "those children, that live over there, and belong to them."


How about giving solutions?

If you do and they make sense, I will write my Representatives.

All I ask for are sourced facts and solutions.

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 07:51 PM.


#869 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 07:51 PM

As frightening and deadly as the bombs and missiles are, the greatest suffering is caused by the sanctions that deny Iraq many basic essentials of modern society. In 1996, to ease the civilian suffering, the U.N. began allowing Iraq to sell some of its oil to get money for food, medicine and other necessities.


I and many others have said this for years and as the paragraph following the one above expresses the containment policy was a US/UK one that was essentially imposed on the UN to manage under the oversght and veto authority of the two principlal achitects of that policy were the US and UK. Just as with the no-fly zones we have gone from doing everything by "halves" to overreacting. Our social attitude pendulum swings from one extreme to the other. Where is the commitment to moderate consistent and constructive solutions that are more rational?

This was a policy that was design to play to OUR domestic interests not toward long term realistic objectives. The idea in Washington and London was that if we could induce enough suffering on the Iraqi people they would do our dirty work for us and we wouldn't have to do what we did. Well totalitarianism doesn't function that way.

When UN investigators in 1996 told teh US/UK that the policy wasn't working they were ignored. When Doctors without Borders told them they were ignored, when Amnesty International outlined the numerous abuses of the Saddam government our government tried to pull a line veto on the document because it included allegations of abuses here in this country and moved to suppress the findings.

When I have argued that there was no way to maintain the policy with my left of center friends I was told that I was right we should end sanctions and when I said that was tantamount to rewarding Saddam they argued that we shouldn't be interfering in other people's affairs.

When I argued that we should add constriction to containment such that we methodically reduced Saddamn's controls and assets so as to prevent the kind of chaos we are experiencing and that we should begin a dialogue with the regional leaders BEFORE we wholesale invaded the country I was told by the Old Conservatives that we aren't a Global Social Welfare Agency that bears the responsibility for Nation Building. (basically just like Kissinger's attitude) And when I said we should do this WITH the UN they just stare at me incredulous.

What has come about is at least in part because We the People want spectacle and simplistic quick fixes more than a serious commitment to complex solutions that demand we ACT as a true global leader by demonstrating respect for consensus and seek it. Instead we react more than commit to constructive engagement and change.

Constriction with Containment would have seized ports and addressed the issue of the Kurds earlier. It would have methodically done what we have done anyway but with less damage to our alliances and the Iraqi people, but it would have meant that we don't get to play Rambo to the cameras. I have rgeat respect for the professionals that don't seek glory, but place their focus a mission accomplished and minimal damage.

Like I said the other part of alternatives is that people have to want to really work with them for if there is no "will", there is no "way".

#870 bobdrake12

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Posted 12 April 2003 - 08:01 PM

What has come about is at least in part because We the People want spectacle and simplistic quick fixes more than a serious commitment to complex solutions that demand we ACT as a true global leader by demonstrating respect for consensus and seek it. Instead we react more than commit to constructive engagement and change.


Lazarus Long,

You do not get contructive engagement with a liar called Saddam. I trust that you do not need me to repost the known lies of Saddam's Minister of Information again.

You are looking for consensus with countries like Syria which are tyrannical dictatorships boarding on Iraq? Since when would it be in the best interest of Syria to have a Free Iraq?

Now what do you specifically recommend from here out regarding Iraq?

I am looking for sourced facts and solutions.

If they make sense, I will write my Representatives.

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 12 April 2003 - 08:06 PM.





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