952 replies to this topic

[bobdrake12]

I am distinguishing the historical perspective from the ongoing practical political date about current and proposed policy.

Lazarus Long,

History is important.

Should the US have gone to war with Iraq is important.

I did read your perspective on Syria and quoted a portion of it on the previous page. I essentially agree.

bob

[Lazarus Long]

Also I still think that arguing that something needed to be done is not a justification for either what was done or that anything should have been done. I see this as going in without a "warrant" under International Law and I do think we are in violation, but it is no longer possible to alter that outcome so my focus is on making it work, not sabotaging a Free Iraq.

I also feel that it is fruitless to whine over "past law" violations too much as there is enough guilt to go around in this world including our own; but I do stress that we above all should be commited to establishing that Rule of Law we claim to be upholding by first and foremost enfocing it upon ourselves. That is how I practice what I preach for myself and I certainly do not see my nation as held to a lesser standard.

I also feel the situation in Iraq is too fluid as of yet and I am far more concerned about preventing a head long dive into a diastrous policy that continues to escalate out of control from here when there is in fact still a lot of good that could come out of this EVEN THOUGH WE TOO HAVE NOW CAUSED THE DEATHS OF A FEW THOUSAND IRAQI CITIZENS, not all of which were the guilty ones.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 13 April 2003 - 05:26 AM.

[bobdrake12]

More on Syria.

bob

http://www.smh.com.a...0069104592.html

Bush expects Syria to hand over Saddam supporters

April 12 2003, 6:58 AM

US President George W. Bush today urged Syria to shut its borders to fleeing followers of Saddam Hussein and turn over any who have already found "safe haven" in Iraq's western neighbour.

"We expect them to do everything they can to prevent people who should be held to account from escaping in their country," he said after meeting for the first time at two area military hospitals with US soldiers wounded in Iraq.

"And it they are in their country, we expect the Syrian authorities to turn them over to the proper folks," said Bush, who met privately with some 75 hurt soldiers and their families accompanied by First Lady Laura Bush.

"We strongly urge them (Syrian leaders) not to allow for Baath party members, or Saddam's families, or generals on the run, to seek safe haven and find safe haven there," said Bush.

Syria "just needs to know we expect full cooperation," he said.

Syria had told the United States it had closed its border with Iraq to all but humanitarian traffic, US officials said yesterday, as they stepped up warnings to Damascus not to assist the remnants of Saddam's collapsed regime.

"We certainly hope that proves to be true," US State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said.

The US ambassador to Syria, Theodore Khattouf, had been told of the closure in meetings with Syrian officials in Damascus, but stressed that Washington would be watching the border closely to see if the move was enforced, the State Department said.

Boucher said the US military and intelligence agencies would be monitoring the frontier "quite closely" and he repeated warnings issued over the past few days by senior US officials that Syria faced a critical choice in its dealings with Iraq.

"Syria has choice to make and we hope Syria makes the right one," Boucher told reporters.

A senior State Department official said later it was possible that Damascus's definition of "humanitarian traffic" might well be different than Washington's.

Copyright © 2003. The Sydney Morning Herald.

[bobdrake12]

Syria's army is the key, there is still room to negotiate if they can be granted a way to transition and retain territorial integrity, they are also more "professional" and have depended "less" (especially in the last few years) on being an instrument of torture for a cult of personality.

Lazarus Long,

There may not be much room for negotiation if Syria received the Iraqi upper echelon as well as their associated WMD. Check out the article directly above.

bob

[Lazarus Long]

Syria is not Iraq, an invasion will collapse irrevocably our relationship with as diverse a group of nations as Jordan and Egypt. The EU will move to defend interests it has there even if it ruptures NATO, and Russia is trying to moderate its stance on Iraq, but it will move against us militarily if we try to continue acting preemptively. We can start a war of words, sanctions, and even strategic strikes against proven targets with Special OPs but if we violate the Syrian border by trying another unilateral invasion we may even lose the Brits.

We don't just lack a warrant, we lack any serious evidence or consensus for that campaign. This is what I mean about starting WWIII. We are still looking for evidence to support what we have done so far. Blaiming Syria for having Saddam's WMD's is too convenient as far as the rest of the world is concerned. We need to have better proof BEFORE acting.

Anyway, it will blowback upon us as we haven't even consolidated the ground in Iraq yet and I doubt the Administration is interested in opening up another campaign (and even worse can of worms) as yet because the Kitty Hawk was rotated out of the theater today and two more Aircraft carriers of the fleet are due to leave in the next few days to weeks.

What they want they can still acheive, which is to get Syria to begin to close the Paramilitary camps, reduce the cross border support for internal guerillas in Iraq, and hand over some leading Iraqi Officials.

I suspect the Syrians will hand them over, with great fanfare, to the World Court in Europe.

Edited by Lazarus Long, 13 April 2003 - 05:45 AM.

[Lazarus Long]

http://story.news.ya...sa_prisoners_dc

Franks: Captured Soldiers Rescued, in Good Shape
13 minutes ago Add Top Stories - Reuters

AS SAYLIYA CAMP, Qatar (Reuters) - U.S. forces have recovered "six or seven" missing or captured U.S. soldiers in Iraq (news - web sites) who are in good shape, U.S. war commander Gen. Tommy Franks said on Sunday.

"They're in good shape and I know they're in our hands and under our control now and that's very good," he told CNN from war headquarters in the Gulf state of Qatar.

"What I don't know is whether they're from the ones we had listed as prisoners of war or whether they're from the missing category."

He said he hoped to have more details later on Sunday.

CNN reported earlier that U.S. forces pushing north from Baghdad had found six U.S. prisoners of war who were now safe.

The Pentagon (news - web sites)'s most recent figures list 10 troops as missing and seven as prisoners.

U.S. special forces rescued captured 19-year-old Jessica Lynch in the city of Nassiriya on April 1, in what officials said was the first rescue of a U.S. prisoner from behind enemy lines since World War II.

She had been held for nine days after her maintenance company convoy made a wrong turn and came under Iraqi fire.

Some 110 U.S. soldiers have been killed and about 400 wounded in the war so far.

[Lazarus Long]

http://story.news.ya...aq_iran_pows_dc

Iran Warns U.S., Britain Over Fate of POWs in Iraq
20 minutes ago World - Reuters!

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran will hold U.S. and British forces responsible for the well-being of any Iranian prisoners of war who might still be in Iraqi jails from the 1980-88 conflict, the official IRNA news agency said on Sunday.

The head of Iran's Committee for Searching for the Missing in Action said Iranian authorities would tell U.S. and British forces they bear responsibility for the fate of any Iranian prisoners of war in Iraq (news - web sites) who may still be alive.

"Considering that Iraqi prisons and detention centers are under the control of U.S. and British forces, they are responsible for the fate of Iranian POWs who may still be there," Brigadier General Mirfeysal Baqerzadeh said, according to IRNA.

Although the Iran-Iraq war, in which hundreds of thousands of soldiers were killed on both sides, ended 15 years ago, the two countries last exchanged bodies and prisoners of war on March 19, just a day before U.S.-led forces started their military attack on Iraq.

The fate of thousands of combatants listed as missing in action remains a bone of contention between the two countries. Iraq denies having Iranian war prisoners, But Iran says there are a number of Iranians still in Iraq.

"It's possible that the Iranian POWs who were in Iraqi prisons were killed, but we have no doubt that a certain number of POWs were behind bars in Iraq," Baqerzadeh said.

[Lazarus Long]

http://story.news.ya...l_nm/mideast_dc

Sharon: Israel Would Yield Settlements for Peace
1 hour, 18 minutes ago World - Reuters
By Gwen Ackerman

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) said in an interview published on Sunday that Israel would have to remove some settlements for peace with Palestinians, and called the fall of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) a chance to end the conflict.

He was clarifying for the first time previous references to "painful concessions" Israel could face to reach peace. But his coalition relies on rightists committed to settlements and has raised objections to a U.S.-backed plan for a Palestinian state.

Sharon, long a right-wing champion of Jewish settlement on land occupied by Israel in the 1967 Middle East war, told the liberal daily Ha'aretz he was ready to take steps "that are painful for every Jew and for me personally."

"Our whole history is bound up with these places: Bethlehem, Shiloh, Beit El. I know that we will have to part with some of these places," the former general said in an interview.

"There will be a parting from places that are connected to the whole course of our history ... As a Jew, this agonizes me. But I have decided to make every effort to reach a (peace) settlement. I feel that the rational necessity to reach a settlement is overcoming my feelings."

Shiloh and Beit El are Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

Bethlehem was reoccupied by Israel last June along with six other Palestinian West Bank cities after a spate of Palestinian suicide bombings. All seven obtained self-rule under interim peace deals in 1993-94 that Sharon opposed while out of power.

In the interview, however, Sharon sounded like his left-wing Labour rivals in saying that a continued Israeli military grip on Palestinian areas was untenable morally and economically.

"I don't think we have to rule over another people and run their lives. I do not think we have the strength for that. It is a very heavy burden on the public and raises ethical problems and heavy economic problems," he was quoted as saying.

The international community says Jewish settlements are illegal under international law. Israel has disputed this and kept building settlements even after the interim peace deals.


PALESTINIAN SKEPTICISM

Saeb Erekat, a Palestinian minister close to President Yasser Arafat (news - web sites), said Sharon's remarks seemed to be "public relations tactics" and Palestinians wanted deeds, not words.

Sharon's chief of staff, Dov Weisglass, headed to Washington to discuss Israeli reservations about an international peace "road map" that calls for a Palestinian state by 2005.

President Bush (news - web sites) has said he will release the plan after Mahmoud Abbas, named as Palestinian prime minister to carry out reforms deemed crucial to defusing conflict with Israel, presents his cabinet -- expected within two weeks.

The road map calls for measures including a halt to Palestinian violence in the 30-month-old uprising and an end to Jewish settlement building in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (news - web sites), to pave the way for Palestinian statehood in the two territories.

Sharon said he was optimistic that the success of U.S.-led forces in toppling Saddam, a sworn enemy of Israel and strong supporter of Palestinian militants, would help revive Israeli-Palestinian peace talks shelved since 2000.

"The move carried out in Iraq (news - web sites) generated a shock through the Middle East and it brings with it a prospect of great change," he said. "There is an opportunity here to forge a different relationship between us and the Arab states and between us and the Palestinians. That opportunity must not be neglected."

Erekat said Sharon's remarks camouflaged what Palestinians regard as Israel's unwillingness to grant them a viable state.

"He speaks vaguely in English about painful concessions for peace while giving orders in Hebrew to intensify settlement activities," Erekat told Reuters.

"We believe that the whole world is still waiting to hear Sharon's unconditional and unequivocal acceptance of the road map and not merely vague statements made for PR and media. We need to see deeds, not hollow words."

Israeli reservations about the road map focus on its prescription for parallel steps by each side rather than an initial, total end to violence by Palestinians, and on its timetable for a state without guarantees of "performance" by Palestinians on their end of the deal.

Palestinians want a formula of reciprocal steps that would require Israel to freeze settlement-building and withdraw forces from Palestinian towns from the start of the process.

Sharon told Ha'aretz the settlement freeze was a "sensitive issue" to be addressed only in the last stages of the plan.

Another objection, he said, was Israel's position that Palestinians must give up the right of refugee return to what is now the Jewish state, a demand Palestinians call a non-starter.

The breakdown of negotiations on terms for a Palestinian state led to the eruption of the Palestinian uprising in which at least 1,990 Palestinians and 729 Israelis have been killed.

[Lazarus Long]

http://story.news.ya...af_ayatollah_dc

Armed Groups Order Shi'ite Leader to Quit Iraq
Sun Apr 13, 4:48 AM ET World - Reuters
By Mehrdad Balali and Esmat Salaheddin

KUWAIT (Reuters) - Armed radical groups have surrounded the house of Iraq (news - web sites)'s top Shi'ite Muslim cleric in the holy city of Najaf, giving him 48 hours to leave the country, aides to the cleric said on Sunday.

"Armed thugs and hooligans have had the house of (Grand) Ayatollah (Ali) Sistani under siege since yesterday. They have told him to either leave Iraq in 48 hours or they would attack," Kuwait-based Ayatollah Abulqasim Dibaji told Reuters.

Abed al-Budairi, an aide to senior cleric Abdul Majid al-Khoei, who was murdered in Najaf on Thursday, told Reuters on Sunday that Sistani had left his Najaf home before it was surrounded, but his son was in the building.

"The ayatollah has been whisked away and has been taken to a secret house, but his son is in the house," he said, adding the groups surrounding the house "have knives, weapons, guns."

Najaf is a holy Shi'ite city in central Iraq where Sistani and many other spiritual leaders live. It is a key center of Shi'ite pilgrimage and religious learning, and contains the tomb of Imam Ali, the son-in-law of the Prophet Mohammed.

"This is the biggest catastrophe. Total terror reigns in Najaf," said Dibaji. "Najaf is a main center of learning, like Oxford in England. It has more than 1,000 years of history."

Dibaji said the house was surrounded by members of Jimaat-e-Sadr-Thani, a splinter group led by Moqtada Sadr, the 22-year-old son of a late spiritual leader in Iraq.

"Moqtada wants to take total control of the holy sites in Iraq," Dibaji said.

Senior Shi'ite leaders have blamed Jimaat-e-Sadr-Thani for orchestrating Thursday's killing of Khoei, who was hacked to death by a mob at the gold-domed Imam Ali Shrine just days after returning from exile in London to help Iraq make the transition to democracy. Another cleric was also killed in that attack.

Budairi said he believed Sistani had been targeted because he was Iranian-born, and the radical groups opposed to him wanted an Iraqi as the country's spiritual leader.

"They went to his house and told him to leave Najaf because he is not Arab. He (Moqtada) is young, he is immature, he is against Iranian ayatollahs, and he wants the grand Maarja (top Shi'ite spiritual leader) to be Iraqi," he said.

He said other ayatollahs had also been told to leave Najaf.


POWER STRUGGLE

Friends and relatives say Khoei was the victim of a power struggle among Shi'ite groups for control of Najaf, a city of some 500,000 people 160 km (100 miles) south of Baghdad.

"Khoei was very well connected and resourceful, and from a respectable family. His presence would have tilted the balance of power in Najaf. Many people felt threatened by him," Mohammad Baqir Mohri, a Shi'ite cleric and scholar said on Saturday.

"Moqtada and his group killed him because they want to control Najaf and the holy shrine, which will be the core of the Shi'ite world in free Iraq," he added.

The Iran-based Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) has condemned Khoei's murder and urged Iraqis in a statement on Saturday to "refrain from taking revenge against each other," Iran's news agency IRNA said.

Khoei, the son of Ayatollah Seyyid Abdulqasim Musawi al-Khoei, who died under arrest in the early 1990s, ran a multinational Muslim charity foundation from London.

He was seen as a rising star in post-Saddam Iraq, but some criticized his close links to the United States.

Moqtada is the son of Mohammed Sadeq Sadr, a Shi'ite Muslim spiritual leader killed along with his two other sons in 1999. Their deaths are widely blamed on the Iraqi secret service.

After the death of his relatives, Moqtada took his fight against Saddam underground, attracting a large following of religious activists from poverty-stricken areas. His group resurfaced after U.S.-led forces captured Najaf on April 4.

At one point, U.S. troops were forced to retreat in Najaf after crowds blocked their path, thinking the soldiers planned to enter the Imam Ali Shrine. Aware of sensitivities in the holy center, U.S. troops have kept a distance around Najaf.

Hamzah Hosseini, a Shi'ite activist, said the current chaos was likely to lead to more bloodshed.

"The oppression of the past decades has left a spiritual void in Iraqi holy cities. It has left the people completely disoriented."

[Lazarus Long]

http://story.news.ya...nm/eu_summit_dc

Europe Prepares for 'Kiss-And-Makeup' Summit
2 hours, 23 minutes ago World - Reuters
By Karolos Grohmann and Brian Williams

ATHENS (Reuters) - European leaders, joined by U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan (news - web sites), gather in the cradle of democracy this week for their first summit since the Iraq (news - web sites) war.

In what optimists describe as a kiss-and-makeup meeting and others fear could be a rerun of European divisions over Iraq, leaders and representatives of 41 nations plan to celebrate the continent's future, not its past, on Wednesday and Thursday. Heads of all 15 EU members will watch ten ex-communist nations sign accession treaties to join the EU in 2004 at a ceremony at the foot of Athens' famed Acropolis, where the concepts of today's democracy were born in the 6th century B.C.

Though the gathering will be heavy on symbolism, it will also mark the first time since Iraq was invaded that the main backer of the U.S.-led war, British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites), meets its leading opponent, French President Jacques Chirac.

Hellenic Foundation for Defense and Foreign policy head Theodoros Kouloumbis predicted it would start the healing of internal EU wounds.

"This is a kiss-and-make up summit," he told Reuters.

Some commentators, however, believe a chance for the start of reconciliation between Europe and the United States over Iraq was missed by not inviting U.S. President George Bush or some other top U.S. official to the gathering.

"The only one missing from the Athens meeting to complete the puzzle on Iraq is President Bush (news - web sites)," said Athens University professor of politics, Michalis Tsinisizelis.

"I think EU members will grab this opportunity to reflect a new unity among them after such a turbulent time," he said.


U.N. ROLE

Annan canceled visits to Britain, Germany, France and Russia to attend the Athens meeting, where he hopes to learn at first hand what role Europe wants the U.N. to play in Iraq. France, Germany and Russia want the United Nations to play a leading part in shaping postwar Iraq. Blair has called for a substantial U.N. political role. But the Bush administration says the United States and its partners will be in charge.

Bush has described the U.N. role as largely humanitarian and advisory rather than central to establishing a new government.

"We won't be disappointed if it's only humanitarian, but we think it would be unwise, and we are waiting for our marching orders from the Security Council," U.N. spokesman Fred Eckhard said in announcing Annan's attendance in Athens.

Former French President Valery Giscard d'Estaing, head of a convention drafting a first constitution for an enlarged EU, will also brief leaders on issues that go to the heart of whether the EU can talk with one voice on a crisis like Iraq.

Some 25,000 police will seal off central Athens for the meeting in Greece's biggest security operation against an expected tens of thousands of anti-war and anti-globalization protestors, some of whom will travel from other countries.

The 10 signatories -- ex-communist nations Poland, Hungary, Slovenia, Slovakia, Lithuania, the Czech Republic, Estonia and Latvia, plus Cyprus and Malta -- will formally join in May 2004.

At that point the EU, with a total population of 450 million, will stretch from the Atlantic to the Baltic sea in the east and from Sweden's Arctic circle to Cyprus, the eastern-most edge of the Mediterranean. Another 100 million people will join when Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey fulfill entry criteria.

Those three EU hopefuls will also be present along with 13 other non-EU nations, including Russia, as well as Annan and leaders of EU institutions like the European Commission. Greek officials see the gathering as the highlight of their current presidency of the EU.

"Let's hope the presidents and prime ministers who come here this week will be inspired to build a better and more democratic Europe," Greek Finance Minister Nikos Christodoulidis said. "Let's hope they learn something from visiting this place."

[Lazarus Long]

http://story.news.ya...ghdad_police_dc

Protest in Baghdad; U.S. Tries to Restore Services
53 minutes ago Top Stories - Reuters
By Edmund Blair

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Hundreds of Iraqi police and other civil servants responded to U.S. calls broadcast by radio to meet in Baghdad on Sunday as part of efforts to resume order and key services to the capital.

But scores of residents protested in central Baghdad, angry that power and water supplies were still disrupted. Some accused U.S. forces of being concerned only about oil rather than getting the country back on its feet.

Time is of the essence for U.S. troops after looters smashed up public buildings, shops and factories following the collapse of the Iraqi government in Baghdad on Wednesday, with frustration mounting among civilians.

"They have operated some of the oil facilities, but they are not operating the power and water systems because they are just after the oil," said 42-year-old civil servant Ali Zuhair.

Mazen Mohammed, 39, a taxi driver, said Baghdad residents just wanted to live in peace now that U.S.-led forces had toppled Saddam Hussein.

"Where is the electricity? Where is the water? Why is there all this mess? It would have been better if Saddam had stayed in power," he said.

In a separate location, one senior U.S. officer tried to organize those who had heeded calls by U.S-led forces via radio to meet at the Al-Wiyah Club in the center of the city to receive instructions.

Baghdad police, fearing they would be mistaken for combatants, had quit their patrols and stayed at home.

They joined health workers, electricity and water ministry employees and others to register for work, in cooperation with the U.S. troops now controlling Baghdad, where most people have been without water and electricity for many days.

The gathering even caused a small traffic jam for the first time since the war began on March 20.

"Listen to the radio. Don't try to watch the television, it's not working," another Iraqi official told the civil servants who wanted more information about what to do.

The Iraqi radio waves have previously been used by U.S. forces to appeal to remaining Iraqi troops to give up fighting and go home to their families.

Iraqi officials at the meeting said police should gather on Monday at the police training college, health workers at a hospital and electricity workers at one of Baghdad's power stations. There they would be assigned duties.

U.S. Marine Major David Cooper told reporters that civil affairs teams, responsible for key public services, would be working with middle-level Iraqi workers involved in operating the services rather than higher-ranking directors. He said only police from the criminal and traffic departments would be involved, not special or security police.

"We are hoping to have them on the streets very soon, hopefully tomorrow (Monday)," he said.

But it may not be an easy job for police to return order when few Iraqis respect a force they accuse of taking bribes or cooperating with Iraq's multitude of intelligence services during Saddam's 24 years of brutal rule.

Nazir Nasir, a biomedical engineer, said as he carried around a list of health workers who had signed up to return to work that residents had organized patrols in his district of Baghdad in cooperation with the local mosque to prevent looting and deter militias, who have wandered around some residential areas with AK-47 assault rifles and other weapons.

He said the patrols, armed with some personal weapons, had liaised with the U.S. troops in his area so that they would not themselves be mistaken for militias.

[Lazarus Long]

http://story.news.ya...=1514&ncid=1473

Powell says Syria would be unwise to protect Iraqi leaders
2 hours, 19 minutes ago Mideast - AFP

LONDON (AFP) - US Secretary of State Colin Powell warned Syria against offering safe haven to fleeing members of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime.

"We think it will be very unwise if, suddenly, Syria becomes a haven for all these people who should be brought to justice, who are trying to get out of Baghdad," Powell said in a BBC television interview.

Syria had been a concern in Washington "for a long period of time", Powell said, alleging that Damascus was a state sponsor of "terrorism" and a supplier of military supplies to Saddam's regime.

"And so are making this point clearly and in a very direct manner to the Syrians," he told the "Breakfast with Frost" program. "We hope the Syrians will respond accordingly."

On Friday US President George W. Bush urged Damascus to close its border with Iraq to prevent followers of Saddam crossing into Syria and asked it to turn over any who might already have taken refuge in the country.

Powell said the course of events in Iraq -- which US and British forces invaded on March 20 -- would set an example to other nations with harsh regimes. He cited Iran and North Korea (news - web sites), which Bush has said belong to an "axis of evil" with oil-rich Iraq.

"One of the good things that will come out of what has happened in Iraq is that Iraq can become an example ... of a nation that can now use its treasure to develop an economic system and a political system that will make them welcomed into the family of nations and become a responsible player in the region," he said.

Powell said France, Germany and Russia had given Saddam "some comfort" by refusing to support a United Nations Security Council resolution that would have authorized the US-led war to oust the Iraqi leader.

But he said the task now was for the United Nations to re-establish its authority, become "vibtant" and develop into "a strengthened institution".

"The United States is not mad with the United Nations," he added.

But he rejected a call by French President Jacques Chirac for the United Nations to be put solely in charge of Iraq's reconstruction.

"It was this coalition of nations that was willing to put its treasure at risk, take the political risk, and put its sons and daughters at risk," he said of the countries that backed the war.

"We are committed to making sure that the Iraqi people have a democratic form of government and we believe we have a leading role to play in bringing this about," he said.

Powell said the warring coalition would encourage the formation of an interim authority which would have legitimacy "given to it first and foremost by the Iraqi people".

He said he hoped the interim authority would "in due course" obtain legitimacy from the United Nations "through an endorsement of the Iraqi authority".

On weapons of mass destruction, Powell reiterated Washington's view that there was no immediate need to involve the United Nations or others in the search for and chemical, biological or nuclear programs in Iraq.

"We don't feel a need right now to consult with respect to the weapons of mass destruction because the (military) campaign is still under way," he said.

"Then we will turn our attention to looking for these weapons of mass destruction and we will see what assistance can be provided in this effort."

"It is not a role for France, Germany and Russia. We will be the liberating authority. We will have occupational responsibilities," he added.

[Lazarus Long]

http://story.news.ya...30412234030&e=3

World powers put UN in Iraq's future; volunteers patrol
Baghdad streets
Sat Apr 12, 7:40 PM ET - AFP

BAGHDAD (AFP) - Iraqi volunteers helped restore order in ransacked Baghdad, while G-7 countries meeting in Washington welcomed UN Security Council guidance on rebuilding Iraq (news - web sites).

Seven of the world's richest nations, deeply divided over the occupation, handed a central role to the International Monetary Fund, World Bank and United Nations, without offering specifics.

In Baghdad, the first police cruiser ventured onto the streets since the US-led occupation on Saturday, after a US appeal for volunteers to help restore order, as well as electricity and water to the capital after three weeks of bombing, war and looting.

By nightfall of day 24 of the war, US, British and Australian troops, with the help of Kurdish fighters, controlled all major cities, except President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s hometown of Tikrit.

Kurdish fighters began withdrawing from the oil-rich city of Kirkuk, leaving it in US hands. The move came as a relief to Turkey, which said it now saw no immediate reason to send troops to the region.

In the main northern city of Mosul, the looting which followed its capture by US-backed Kurdish fighters died down, the Arabic news television Al-Jazeera reported.

However, up to 20 people had been killed in fighting between Arabs and Kurds, said hospital sources in Mosul.

Chaos still reigned in the capital, four days after it was taken by US-led forces. Most shops were shuttered. Armed shop owners stood guard outside to ward off looters who have stripped government buildings, hotels and even hospitals of vital supplies and equipment.

Jeweler Safar Hussein Hazem said chaos "isn't freedom."

Residents called on US forces to crack down on the looters and warned that Iraqis could turn against the soldiers if they do not.

"If the Americans don't do anything in the coming weeks, we'll drive them out," Hassan Fahed said.

"Iraq is an ancient civilization; the United States is nothing."

Dozens of Iraqis reported to the Palestine Hotel where US officers and media are housed, in response to a US call for qualified people to come forward.

A group of police officers came forward.

"It was time to get back to work," Captain Mohammad Abdul Karim al-Asaidi said. "We're working for the people, not for a government."

US forces secured the city's main water supply station against looters, a spokeswoman for the International Committee of the Red Cross said in Geneva.

Antonella Notari also said the capital's Medical City hospital complex was partly under the control of US soldiers.

"These are very concrete, very useful measures, but the entire infrastructure serving the civilian population also has to be secured," she said.

The capital has been without water and electricity for days.

At Baghdad's Rashid psychiatric hospital, ransacked by violent mobs on Wednesday, two patients died of thirst as they were unable to swallow water without assistance, staffers said.

Around three-quarters of the 1,100 patients left the hospital.

"We tried to defend ourselves, but in vain. They were too strong," nurse Imad Taha Abbas, told AFP.

Facing criticism for the growing lawlessness, the United States said it would send nearly 1,200 security advisors and judicial experts to Iraq in the coming weeks.

US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld acknowledged that US troops had an obligation to help provide security but angrily insisted that the extent of the chaos had been exaggerated in media reports.

Brigadier General Vincent Brooks said Saturday that there was no curfew in Iraq, but did not rule it out.

"Whether one is imposed or not is a tactical decision," that could vary from city to city, Brooks told reporters at Central Command in Qatar.

In Kirkuk, US troops were deployed outside the governor's office, in a sign they were steadily taking over control of the city from Kurdish forces. Rostam, a top commander of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, said the city was quieter after it too was looted following its fall to his fighters on Thursday.

"The situation is under control," he said, adding that US forces in the city were "more than sufficient" to assure its security.

Turkey has insisted that Kurdish fighters quit Kirkuk and Mosul, fearful that allowing the oil wealth to slip into their hands could finance an independent Kurdish state and fuel separatist ambitions of Turkey's own Kurds.

But there was "no need for the Turkish army to enter northern Iraq," Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said, while warning Turkey was ready to intervene if necessary.

US forces moved north from Baghdad to Tikrit, fearing that Saddam, if still alive, could rally a final stand in his hometown.

Saddam's top weapons advisor surrendered to US troops in Baghdad saying he was happy to be questioned because the ousted regime had none of the banned weapons the United States used as a justification for the war.

"I tell you for history: We have nothing," General Amer al-Saadi told German ZDF public television.

The United States, Britain and Italy, who supported the war, squared off with France, Germany and Japan, who did not, over Iraq.

"We recognize the need for a multilateral effort to help Iraq," according to a G7 communique. "We support a further UN Security Council resolution."

"The IMF and World Bank should play their normal role in rebuilding and developing Iraq, recognizing that the Iraqi people have the ultimate responsibility to implement the right policies and build their own future."

However, the statement offered few specifics on the UN resolution or any details on the postwar administration of Iraq.

The statement also acknowledged the importance of a cooperative effort dealing with Iraq's massive debt, saying the Paris Club of creditor nations should review this.

IMF policymakers seconded the UN role in a separate statement.

[bobdrake12]

http://story.news.ya..._mi_ea/war_pows

Sun, Apr 13, 2003

Seven U.S. Troops Found North of Baghdad (excerpts)

By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer

CAMP AS SAYLIYAH, Qatar - U.S. Marines have found seven missing U.S. troops on the road between Baghdad and Tikrit, Gen. Tommy Franks said Sunday.

An Iraqi tipped off the Marines who were near Samarra and were closing in on Tikrit, the hometown of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites), that they would shortly "come in contact with a number of Americans," Franks told Fox News

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, speaking on NBC's "Meet the Press," said two of the Americans have gunshot wounds.

The families of the seven are being notified, Rumsfeld said.


"I believe our guys picked them up on the road," Franks said.


"I know they're in good shape and I know they're in our hands and under our control now," he told CNN.

[Lazarus Long]

We were fortunate that the troops were held by decent Regular Rank & File troops and were well treated and voluntarilly returned.

[DJS]

Russia is trying to moderate its stance on Iraq, but it will move against us militarily if we try to continue acting preemptively.  We can start a war of words, sanctions, and even strategic strikes against proven targets with Special OPs but if we violate the Syrian border by trying another unilateral invasion we may even lose the Brits.

From your perspective Russia is trying to moderate its stance. From my perspective they are trying to form a counter-balance alliance that has nothing to do with morals or the security interests of the United States.

And move against us militarily? Please. Are you implying actual military conflict or a new arms race? I assume the latter. Russia didn't have the economic strength to keep pace with us militarily back in 1991. They definitely do not have the assets now. You are, once again, giving the worst case scenario.

I happen to agree with your statement on Syria. War with Syria is not imminent. We know this, Syria knows this. By giving the Syrians enough time to prove their guilt or innocents we will be showing the world that we are not "crazy", but deliberative; and that all of our actions are carefully thought out. Initially we need to apply hard diplomatic pressure. However, if diplomatic efforts, or even surgical strikes, prove ineffective then we should be prepared to us military force. Preferably after GW wins the 2004 election.

And also, the Brits would definitely part company with us if we went after Syria. Tony Blair took on an enormous amount of backlash for supporting the US in Iraq. Can you imagine the kind of pressure a British Prime Minister would face if he tried to support a US war against Syria?? Great Britain has a very special relationship with us, but they are also (like every other western European nation) very liberal. A time may come when we part ways.

We don't just lack a warrant, we lack any serious evidence or consensus for that campaign.  This is what I mean about starting WWIII.  We are still looking for evidence to support what we have done so far.  Blaiming Syria for having Saddam's WMD's is too convenient as far as the rest of the world is concerned.  We need to have better proof BEFORE acting.

I agree. We need to build a case like we did in Iraq. We have a year and a half to do it.

Anyway, it will blowback upon us as we haven't even consolidated the ground in Iraq yet and I doubt the Administration is interested in opening up another campaign (and even worse can of worms) as yet because the Kitty Hawk was rotated out of the theater today and two more Aircraft carriers of the fleet are due to leave in the next few days to weeks.

Accurate observations. I hope we don't pull too much air power out of the region, but I am not a military expert so I guess they have their reasons. I think if we left most of our forces in place it would give us better "diplomatic leverage" against terrorist states like Syria.

What they want they can still acheive, which is to get Syria to begin to close the Paramilitary camps,  reduce the cross border support for internal guerillas in Iraq, and hand over some leading Iraqi Officials.

I suspect the Syrians will hand them over, with great fanfare, to the World Court in Europe.

This is what many of us Neo-conservatives hoped for all the long -- an isolated Syria that is forced to make concessions because of its compromised position. If Syria did all that you listed above I would no longer consider them a threat and would take the military option off the table. This is a big "if". I am not sure if the Syrian government could do all of this even if it wanted to.

Taking out Syria militarily would be the easy part. The diplomatic Armageddon that precedes it is what will be most difficult.

[DJS]

Looking Back into the Soul
Ariel Cohen
Bush and Putin need to get beyond Iraq-related issues.


The Bush administration has accused Moscow of selling sensitive military equipment to Saddam Hussein, in violation of U.N. Security Council sanctions. During a March 24 telephone conversation, President George W. Bush discussed the sales of night-vision goggles, anti-tank Kornet missiles, and Global Positioning System (GPS) jamming equipment with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

According to the Russian website www.gazeta.ru, former Soviet generals have also admitted that, just days before the beginning of the U.S.-led campaign against Iraq, they received state awards from Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. These are senior retired Soviet officers, General (three-star) Vladimir Achalov and General (also three-star) Igor Maltsev. Achalov, former Soviet deputy defense minister, participated in the failed putsch against then-Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev. He was also the Soviet airborne-troops commander and the last Soviet commander-in-chief of the rapid-reaction forces. Maltsev, who is considered a leading authority in air defense, was the chief of the Main Staff of the Soviet Air Defense. He is also a pardoned 1991 coup plotter.

Russian defense sources in Moscow told NRO that both retired generals had to obtain permission from top-level Russian political and military authorities to perform their advisory roles. Thus Russia's official denials that the Kremlin did not know about the "mission to Baghdad" can only sound hollow.

In the conversation with Bush, Putin not only denied sales to Iraq, but went on to accuse the U.S. of itself selling deadly military equipment to Iraq, and to other countries which may support (or have supported) international terrorism. The Associated Press and other media reports described the exchange between the two leaders as "tense." These accusations are just a symptom of the state of U.S.-Russian relations, which have been deteriorating since Moscow sided with Paris in the U.N. Security Council.

Secretary of State Colin Powell and his Russian counterpart, Igor Ivanov, also exchanged tough words last week, but affirmed that both countries have a broader agenda to pursue. Before the matter became public, U.S. officials repeatedly raised the issue with their Russian colleagues — who typically stonewalled, often with the most ridiculous explanations. In some cases, they went so far as to claim that the companies in question did not even exist.

Of course, it was not entirely news that Russian companies were selling high-tech equipment to Iraq. FOX News was reporting as early as January 2003 that Russia had sold GPS jammers, and that Saddam would use the civilian casualties that could ensue as a result of stray bombs or missiles for his own propaganda purposes. Moreover, according to Paul J. Saunders and Nikolas K. Gvosdev in The National Interest, as far back as 2000, a Kuwaiti newspaper disclosed a sale of this type by the Russian military-equipment company Aviakonversiya. Night goggles, which are readily available for sale in Russia, are even more dangerous, as they give the Iraqi military a capacity for nighttime operations it would otherwise lack.

U.S. officials are careful to point out that they do not view the sales under dispute as having been officially authorized by the Russian government. The question is, did the Kremlin give the sale a wink and a nod, or just shut its eyes and look elsewhere? The Americans have provided names, addresses, telephone numbers, and even shipping details, and have gone to great lengths to declassify their intelligence information in a good-faith effort to gain Russian cooperation to stop the sales. At this point, the Kremlin can hardly feign surprise.

The dispute highlights the underhanded methods military-hardware companies and the Iraqi government use to acquire forbidden technology and circumvent the U.N. sanctions. According to the Los Angeles Times, by exporting "components" — rather than finished goods — which would not be assembled until they reached Iraq, Aviankonversia president Oleg Antonov claimed that his company violated neither the U.N. sanctions nor Russian government regulations. If companies have traded this way with Iraq, what have their dealings been with Iran, North Korea, or even terrorist organizations, which may be interested in military systems from the former Soviet Union or even Western Europe?

The case typifies how a Russian company can be penny-wise (the whole transaction, which involved six GPS jammers, cost under $500,000) even as the Russian state is pound-foolish, losing the goodwill of the U.S. government — which could in turn translate into in the loss of billions of dollars in Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC) and Export-Import (ExIm) bank credits.

This flap over arms sales only proves how fragile the relationship between Moscow and Washington has become since Moscow sided with Paris, Berlin, and most of the Arab world in opposition to the war against Saddam. Three small and shady arms deals are threatening a broad, multifaceted matrix of ties, repeatedly characterized as "strategic" by Presidents Bush and Putin. Numerous security, diplomatic, and business relationships — from multibillion-dollar Cooperative Threat Reduction programs (which deal with non-proliferation of weapons of mass destruction) to abrogation of the Jackson-Vanick Amendment (which denied Normal Permanent Trade Relations, currently under consideration by the U.S. Congress) to billions of energy investment dollars — may be jeopardized if U.S.-Russian relations go south.

It is in the interest of both countries to end the acrimony over Iraq and focus on the future. To achieve this, the Putin administration must "clean house" and take to task the culprits who sold banned weapons to Saddam. Moscow should expand cooperation with the United States on prevention of sales of dual-use and military technologies to countries on the U.S. State Department terrorism watch list.

Moscow also needs to remember that breaching the U.N. Security Council sanctions inevitably makes its own accusations that the U.S. is violating "international law" ring hollow.

Most importantly, the two countries should not lose sight of the strategic imperative of fighting the global radical Islamist terrorist networks. In that struggle, the survival of both Russians and Americans is at stake.

[DJS]

Pulled this snippets from an article

The United States is Russia's largest trading partner, with bilateral trade reaching $9.2 billion last year. He noted that Russia's economy is heavily dependent on the state of the U.S. economy and the value of the U.S. dollar. About three-quarters of Russia's $55.5 billion hard-currency reserves are held in U.S. dollars, Putin said. Any drop in the value of the dollar would lead to direct losses for Russia. The same is true for private citizens, who also prefer to hold their savings in dollars, Putin noted.

Edited by Kissinger, 13 April 2003 - 07:35 PM.

[bobdrake12]

We were fortunate that the troops were held by decent Regular Rank & File troops and were well treated and voluntarilly returned.

Lazarus Long,

That is your assumption about the POWs being well treated.

The truth will come out sooner or later. Until then, I am not jumping to conclusions.

bob

[bobdrake12]

From your perspective Russia is trying to moderate its stance. From my perspective they are trying to form a counter-balance alliance that has nothing to do with morals or the security interests of the United States.

Kissinger,

What was moderate about Russia's stance?

Russia didn't back the US in the UN against Saddam's regime based upon murder, fear and lies.

Regarding Saddam's WMD check out the Telegraph article further below on this page. Quoting from that article:

The list of assassins is referred to in a paper dated November 27, 2000. In it, an agent signing himself "SAB" says that the Russians have passed him a detailed list of killers. The letter does not describe any assignments that the assassins might be given but it indicates just how much Moscow was prepared to share with Baghdad. Another document, dated March 12, 2002, appears to confirm that Saddam had developed, or was developing nuclear weapons. The Russians warned Baghdad that if it refused to comply with the United Nations then that would give the United States "a cause to destroy any nuclear weapons".

bob

Edited by bobdrake12, 13 April 2003 - 09:35 PM.

[bobdrake12]

More on this serial killer called Saddam.

bob




"Saddam ran one of the most repressive, murderous regimes in modern history for the good reason that without this apparatus of terror, Iraqis would tear him limb from limb."



http://www.suntimes....rld/world07.asp


For most Iraqis, he was like the sun, a part of life ... forever

This week marked the end of one of the extraordinary personality cults and tyrannies of our time, writes David Blair in Amman


THE plump, veiled woman rolled her brimming eyes towards the heavens, as if filled with ecstasy. "He is our leader, our beloved leader, our wise leader, the father of us all," she sang, clasping her face. "He wins victory after victory, he cares for us all, he is everything to us."

The singer, whose polished performance contrived to be permanently on the brink of collapsing with emotion, continued for about 20 minutes.

Until allied bombs blasted Iraqi television off the airwaves last week, this praise-singing for Saddam Hussein - the Great Leader, President of Iraq, Commander of its Armies, Father of its People and Direct Descendant of the Prophet - occurred night after night.

It formed only a small part of a personality cult so colossal, oppressive and grotesque as to be unrivalled since the days of Stalin. For most Iraqis, Saddam's face and his distinctively nasal voice seemed as permanent a part of their lives as the solar system.

That explains the extraordinary atmosphere on the streets of Baghdad this week , when the city's five million people responded to the tyrant's downfall with a mixture of delight, disbelief, bewilderment and weariness.

More than half of all Iraqis are under 20. Most were not even born when Saddam became president with absolute power 24 years ago. The era before he began his ascent to dominance with the Ba'ath party revolution in 1968 is ancient history to most Iraqis. Like every caricature tyrant, Saddam overwhelmed and suffocated the lives of an entire generation.

The news of his fall has not sunk in. There will be a profound sense of relief and joy, comparable with the atmosphere in the freed capitals of Eastern Europe in 1989. For the Great Leader was never popular with most of his people. Saddam was painfully aware of this.

"Don't think you will ever get revenge," he once told the relatives of an Iraqi general whom he had executed. "If you ever get the chance, by the time you reach me, there will not be a sliver of flesh left on my body."

Saddam ran one of the most repressive, murderous regimes in modern history for the good reason that without this apparatus of terror, Iraqis would tear him limb from limb. Unlike most dictators, he was not paranoid. He accurately judged that most of his people were out to get him.

Saddam was a Sunni Arab in a country where about 80% of the population are either Shia Muslims or Kurds. He was, first and foremost, a tribal leader. Saddam's tribe and all of its traditional allies number no more than a few hundred thousand.

His life's mission was to raise this clique to dominance over a nation of 23 million. With remarkable political skill, Saddam achieved this. With complete ruthlessness, he maintained it at appalling cost.

So the overwhelming emotion that Saddam inspired was a deep, abject terror, almost incomprehensible to foreigners.

One of the most obvious changes brought by his fall is that Iraqis feel able to refer to him by name. During his rule, most Iraqis were too afraid even to mention the words "Saddam Hussein".

They would talk of "the leadership" or "the rulers", or use exaggerated terms of respect. One Iraqi I knew in Baghdad - who loathed Saddam with a passion - would nonetheless refer to him as "His Excellency the President".

The reaction of each Iraqi to his downfall will depend on how close they were to Saddam's ruling clan.

In his hometown of Tikrit, 160km northwest of Baghdad, and the nearby strongholds of his tribe in towns like al-Dour and al-Touz, there will be genuine grief.

The winners from Saddam's rule will mourn his passing and fear the consequences if their compatriots start settling old scores.

In Baghdad, inhabited by at least one million Shias and millions more members of clans traditionally hostile to Saddam, people are celebrating his removal.

In southern Iraq, dominated by the Shia majority, the news brought joy. In the north, where the Kurdish people suffered more at his hands than anyone else, there was ecstasy.

But Saddam differed from Stalin and Ceausescu in one crucial respect. His face was displayed on every street corner and stared from every wall, yet Saddam himself was almost never seen in public. As long ago as the mid-1980s, at the peak of his war with Iran, Saddam drastically curtailed his public appearances. From 2000 onwards, they stopped altogether.

When the nation celebrated Saddam's 65th birthday last April, the Great Leader did not even feel able to attend his own party. For years, the ostentatious presidential palaces lay empty, deserted by a leader who retreated further and further underground.

Saddam acquired at least three doubles and the suspicion remains that these hapless individuals were used for his recent television appearances.

If it was the real Saddam who walked the streets of Baghdad for the cameras last week, he was meeting ordinary Iraqis for the first time in about three years. What was remarkable about that swansong was how few people surrounded him.

Perhaps most passers-by could not comprehend how Saddam would ever walk the same streets as them. Perhaps they did not believe it really was him. Perhaps their fear prevented them from going anywhere near him.

Whatever the truth, they betrayed the mixture of terror and hatred with which Iraqis viewed their dictator who declined into a solitary, ghostly existence before US tanks sealed his fall.

- © The Telegraph, London

[bobdrake12]

The case typifies how a Russian company can be penny-wise (the whole transaction, which involved six GPS jammers, cost under $500,000) even as the Russian state is pound-foolish, losing the goodwill of the U.S. government — which could in turn translate into in the loss of billions of dollars in Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC) and Export-Import (ExIm) bank credits.

Kissinger,

Thanks for the article.

This brings back the same old question:

What was moderate about Russia's stance?


While discussing Russia's so-called moderate stance, check out the article below as well as the one following it on the next page.


bob


http://www.portal.te.../ixnewstop.html



Revealed: Russia spied on Blair for Saddam (excerpts)
By David Harrison
(Filed: 13/04/2003)


Top secret documents obtained by The Telegraph in Baghdad show that Russia provided Saddam Hussein's regime with wide-ranging assistance in the months leading up to the war, including intelligence on private conversations between Tony Blair and other Western leaders.

Moscow also provided Saddam with lists of assassins available for "hits" in the West and details of arms deals to neighbouring countries. The two countries also signed agreements to share intelligence, help each other to "obtain" visas for agents to go to other countries and to exchange information on the activities of Osama bin Laden, the al-Qa'eda leader.

The documents detailing the extent of the links between Russia and Saddam were obtained from the heavily bombed headquarters of the Iraqi intelligence service in Baghdad yesterday.

The sprawling complex, which for years struck fear into Iraqis, has been the target of looters and ordinary Iraqis searching for information about relatives who disappeared during Saddam's rule.

The documents, in Arabic, are mostly intelligence reports from anonymous agents and from the Iraqi embassy in Moscow. Tony Blair is referred to in a report dated March 5, 2002 and marked: "Subject - SECRET." In the letter, an Iraqi intelligence official explains that a Russian colleague had passed him details of a private conversation between Mr Blair and Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian prime minister, at a meeting in Rome. The two had met for an annual summit on February 15, 2002, in Rome.

The document says that Mr Blair "referred to the negative things decided by the United States over Baghdad". It adds that Mr Blair refused to engage in any military action in Iraq at that time because British forces were still in Afghanistan and that nothing could be done until after the new Kabul government had been set up.

It is not known how the Russians obtained such potentially sensitive information, but the revelation that Moscow passed it on to Baghdad is likely to have a devastating effect on relations between Britain and Russia and come as a personal blow to Mr Blair. The Prime Minister declared a "new era" in relations with President Putin when they met in Moscow in October 2001 in the aftermath of the World Trade Center attacks.

In spite of warnings by the British intelligence and security services of increasing Russian espionage in the West, Mr Blair fostered closer relations with Mr Putin, visiting his family dacha near Moscow, supporting the Russians in their war in Chechnya, and arranging for the Russian president to have tea with the Queen.

Mr Blair was surprised and dismayed when Mr Putin joined France in threatening to veto the American and British resolution on Iraq in the UN, but continued to differentiate between President Putin and President Jacques Chirac.

The list of assassins is referred to in a paper dated November 27, 2000. In it, an agent signing himself "SAB" says that the Russians have passed him a detailed list of killers. The letter does not describe any assignments that the assassins might be given but it indicates just how much Moscow was prepared to share with Baghdad. Another document, dated March 12, 2002, appears to confirm that Saddam had developed, or was developing nuclear weapons. The Russians warned Baghdad that if it refused to comply with the United Nations then that would give the United States "a cause to destroy any nuclear weapons".

Edited by bobdrake12, 13 April 2003 - 09:25 PM.

[bobdrake12]

"We see what we want to see until we open our eyes."

bob


http://www.sfgate.co.../13/MN20786.DTL



Sunday, April 13, 2003

Iraq-Russia spy link uncovered - SECRET FILES: Documents reveal Iraqi agents trained in Moscow (excerpts)

Robert Collier, Bill Wallace, Chronicle Staff Writers


Baghdad -- A Moscow-based organization was training Iraqi intelligence agents as recently as last September -- at the same time Russia was resisting the Bush administration's push for a tough stand against Saddam Hussein's regime, Iraqi documents discovered by The Chronicle show.

The documents found Thursday and Friday in a Baghdad office of the Mukhabarat, the Iraqi secret police, indicate that at least five agents graduated Sept. 15 from a two-week course in surveillance and eavesdropping techniques, according to certificates issued to the Iraqi agents by the "Special Training Center" in Moscow.

The Russian government, which has expressed intense disagreement with the U. S.-led war on Iraq, has repeatedly denied giving any military or security assistance to the Hussein regime. Any such aid would violate U.N. sanctions that have severely limited trade, military and other relations with Iraq since 1991.

U.S.-Russian relations have been strained by the split over Iraq. It is unclear whether these revelations, coming on top of U.S. charges that Moscow has been supplying other forms of forbidden assistance to Baghdad, may damage them further.

The U.S. State Department reacted cautiously Friday to the information unearthed by The Chronicle, saying it could not comment on matters that are the subject of current intelligence operations.

But Lou Fintor, a State Department spokesman, said the U.S. government has repeatedly criticized Russian officials for giving assistance to Iraq and has had recent contacts with the Russian government in which it complained about the problem.

"We consider this a serious matter and have raised it with senior levels of the Russian government," Fintor said. "They have repeatedly denied that they are providing material assistance to Iraq, but we gave them sufficient information (during the last two contacts) to let them know that we expected them to take action."

Attempts to contact officials at the consulate for the Russian Federation in Washington were unsuccessful, and calls to the home of Sergey Ovsyannikov, the head of the consular division in Washington, went unanswered.

However, experts in Iraqi and Russian intelligence operations were not surprised that Mukhabarat officials had received specialized training in Russia.

"I can't think of anybody in the Iraqi security service that hasn't been trained in Russia," said Ibrahim Marashi, a research fellow at the Center for Nonproliferation Studies at the Monterey Institute of International Studies.

Details about the Mukhabarat's Russian spy training emerged from some Iraqi agents' personnel folders, hidden in a back closet in a center for electronic surveillance located in a four-story mansion in the Mesbah district, Baghdad's wealthiest neighborhood.

Each personnel file was contained in a thick folder with documents that reflected the agent's Mukhabarat career.

Three of the five Iraqi agents graduated late last year from a two-week course in "Phototechnical and Optical Means," given by the Special Training Center in Moscow, while two graduated from the center's two-week course in "Acoustic Surveillance Means."

One of the graduating officers, identified in his personnel file as Sami Rakhi Mohammad Jasim al-Mansouri, 46, is described as being connected to "the general management of counterintelligence" in the south of the country.

Born in Basra, he joined the Mukhabarat on May 1, 1981, according to his file. His "party position" -- a possible reference to the ruling Baath Party --

is listed as "lieutenant general."

His certificate, which bears the double-eagle symbol of the Russian Federation and a stylized star symbol that resembles the seal of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service, uses a shortened version of al-Mansouri's name.

It says he entered the Moscow-based Special Training Center's "advanced" course in "acoustic surveillance means" on Sept. 2, 2002, and graduated on Sept. 15.

"The studying program has been fulfilled completely and successfully," says the certificate, which bears an illegible signature of the center's director.

The Chronicle was unable to determine whether the Special Training Center was a Russian government organization or a privately run facility, though U.S. analysts said it is unlikely that any private firm could train foreign intelligence agents in Russia without government permission.

The facility is not mentioned on the official Web site of the Russian Federal Security Service. The Web site for the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service was not in operation this weekend.

Edited by bobdrake12, 14 April 2003 - 03:28 AM.

[bobdrake12]

I understand that over the last 6000 years there have been less than 200 years of peace on this planet.

A new method needs to be created in dealing with crisis situations:

o So far, the UN does not seem to be the answer when its members at times appear to vote based upon their business interests rather than what is the right thing to do.

o So far, the Rule of Law is lacking due to the corruption involved in turning a blind eye towards atrocities.

o Agendas and spin have replaced honesty and wisdom throughout recorded history.

There needs to be a paradigm shift otherwise wars like the recent one with Iraq will be repeated.

Dr. Kaku:

Intelligence leads to discovering two things: element 92 (uranium) and a chemical industry. “With the discovery of uranium comes the possibility of annihilating themselves with nuclear weapons. With the creation of a chemical industry comes the possibility of polluting their environment with toxins and destroying their life-giving atmosphere.” (324)

“Its immature history is still haunted by the brutal sectarian, fundamentalist, nationalist, and racial hatreds of the past millennia.”

"If these twin global disasters can be averted, then inevitably their science will rise to unlock the secret of life, artificial intelligence, and the atom, as they stumble upon the biomolecular, computer, and quantum revolutions, which will pave the way for their society to rise to the level of a planetary civilization. The computer revolution will link all their peoples with a powerful global telecommunications and economic network; the biomolecular revolution will give them the knowledge to cure disease and feed their expanding population; and the quantum revolution will give them the power and materials to build a planetary society.” (325)

bob

Gloom, Doom.... and Boom!!!


http://www.pbs.org/avoidingarmageddon/






This timely series from Ted Turner Documentaries explores the explosive intersection between terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. Viewers are taken to some of the most dangerous places in the world to see dramatic human stories that convey the threats from nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, as well as the hope that the world can still choose to avoid Armageddon.



Copyright 2003 WETA

Edited by bobdrake12, 14 April 2003 - 04:23 AM.

[bobdrake12]

Gloom, Doom.... and Boom!!! - Part II

http://www.jaysnet.com/666nuke.html



The First Hydrogen Bomb Being Tested at Eniwetok Atoll in the Pacific,1952




The memory of the Chernobyl Nuclear Accident which occurred on April 26,1986.Over 15 years later a ghost town near the plant still remains standing, not fit for human occupation

[bobdrake12]

Gloom, Doom.... and Boom!!! - Part III




http://www.pbs.org/a...s/learn_02.html








Weapons of mass destruction are nuclear, biological or chemical weapons that are capable of killing or injuring large numbers of people. Although some have argued that radiological material or so-called "dirty bombs" should also fall into this category, Avoiding Armageddon focuses on nuclear, biological or chemical weapons and the people who might use them. These weapons are the products of mankind's ingenuity that, as President Richard Nixon said when he banned chemical and biological weapons, "carry the seeds of mankind's destruction."


This section of the site offers an interactive map of the world, showing what nations have - or are pursuing - weapons of mass destruction. The overwhelming majority of these weapons lie stockpiled in the United States and Russia - the legal legacy of the Cold War arms race. But proliferation did not end with the Cold War. In fact, nuclear capability now lies in the hands of warring neighbors India and Pakistan, North Korea and has been actively pursued by Iraq.

Under-secured nuclear weapons and materials as well as other WMD materials are also being actively pursued by terrorists around the globe, edging the world ever closer to Armageddon.



Copyright 2003 WETA

[DJS]

The detonation pic you posted for gloom, doom, and boom Part III I have hanging in my house. My girlfriend asked me why I have it hanging up. I told her it represents the fury in human nature.

Edited by Kissinger, 14 April 2003 - 07:08 AM.

[DJS]

What was moderate about Russia's stance?

Russia didn't back the US in the UN against Saddam's regime based upon murder, fear and lies.

I never said Russia was moderating its stance, Lazarus did. However, I do believe that Russia influence in international relations is not black and white.

First, Russia (the former USSR) had been our strategic adversary for almost 50 years. It takes time for a nation's perspective to change. (There are still many people in Russia who view us as an adversary).

Second, Russia utilizes (and has always utilized) a classical foreign policy approach. They do what is in their best interest, no morality is involved. A good indicator of this would be Russia's modern day public opinion of Stalin. There was a poll taken a while back where 37% of the Russian public had a "very favorable" opinion of Stalin -- Stalin, the most brutal dictator the world has ever known! Russian "history" is very different from American "history". This, in and of itself, effects their actions and positions. It is also a good example of the Hegelian Dialectic.

Now let's go back 12 years to the fall of the Soviet Union. By 1991 the Russian economy was in the process of disintegrating. The depression that followed was estimated at 3 to 4 times as devastating as the Great Depression in the United States. The United States went home and enjoyed the 90s. One of the actions, taken by Russia, that stabilized the Russian economy was its investment in hard US currency. As I posted previously, 3/4 of Russia's $55.5 billion hard currency reserves are held in US dollars. Of course, the United States wasn't going to complain because we realized this would have the exact effect that we wanted; a Russia integrated into the western economic system.

Integration has always been our goal with Russia. The United States is Russia's largest trading partner at $9.2 billion in bilateral trade. We want to so completely integrate them into the "western" market place that military considerations/actions become unthinkable and economically counter productive.

And that is exactly what we have been doing. When the US pushed for eastward NATO expansion did Russia do anything? No. When the GW Bush Administration effectively nullified SALT by embarking on missile defense did we get anything more than a few grumbles out of Russia? No. This is because Russia's position towards the United States has been moderated. Not as an act of kindness, but as a matter of practicality and profit.
Military conflict against Russia is off the table (and never was on the table) because 1) The US does not have territorial ambitions, anywhere. 2) Russia has a huge military and the most significant nuclear retaliatory forces in the world except the US 3) The US has a lot of other problems to worry about right now in the world.

Another direct result of Russia's depression was an unprecedented rise in organized crime and corruption. Some estimates have 50% of Russia's economic activity taking place in black markets. This corruptions has infiltrated every aspect of Russian life, including their military industrial complex. Russia supports this vital industry (and the 4 million jobs it represents) by selling military hardware and technology to interested parties. Gotta pay the bills, right? Just like the Russian space program. Does anyone have $10 million dollars I can borrow? In addition, Russia does not regulated the export of military hardware like night vision goggles. (I must admit that this is more of an excuse than anything else. They could effectively regulate such materials if they wanted to, but they are trying to find revenue where ever they can and the government can claim a certain level of detachment from commercial activities). Along with the threat of proliferation through the compromised security of Russian military facilities, these are all examples of Russia's weaknesses also being our weaknesses. When Russia is economically weak, the result is intentional and unintentional proliferation. This, in turn, is a threat to US national security.

All of this brings me to the conclusion that Russia is an economic midget and a geo-political juggernaut. Russia's economy is 1/20th the size of the US. At the same time, Russia is the only nation other than the US to have direct geo-political influence in both Europe and East Asia. They could eventually be our most important strategic ally. My girlfriend always tells me how Nostradamus (spelling?) predicted that the Bear and the Eagle would united and a thousand years of peace would follow. I don't buy into prophesy, but hey, anything that will support my contentions. lol

And for all of our complaining about Russian intentions what has Russia really done to block us? Follow the French lead? Try to assert themselves as a "global player"? Try to have more UN involvement in Iraq so Russia could get more of a piece of the pie? Selling dated military hardware that gets rolled over by our state of the art fighting machine? If one looks at things from Russia's perspective, these are all reasonable actions, none of which are a result of hostilities towards the United States. It is all a game of cost/benefit for Russia. How much can they get away with without effecting the good relationship they have with us?

Plus, we are forgetting that Iraq was a Russian client state. Why should Russia alter its strategic relationship with Iraq because we booted Saddam out of Kuwait? To the Russians, it all is still strictly business.

In conclusion, US-Russian relations is a very complicated issue. Russia does a lot of things we do not like. Some of these things Russia can't help, or rather, can't help itself. At the same time, Russia is effected by many of the same geo-strategic imperatives that the United States is effected by. Islamic fundamentalism, WMD proliferations, a rising China -- Russia shares all of our concerns on these matters. Add to this our need for an alternative energy source to the Middle East and Russia's need for economic support and it is no surprise that Condi Rice (fluent in Russian) made a special "low key" trip to Moscow on April 6th.

Putin may stomp his feet and throw a tantrum. He may threaten to veto UN security council resolutions. He may even sell a few dinky GPS blockers to Iraq that don't work. But he will not directly oppose us in any significant way that would effect the health of the US-Russian relationship. I think the vocal opposition is for three reasons: 1) to show the US that Russia needs to be taken seriously 2) to try and curry favor with the EU for a better EU-Russia economic relationship 3) to cater to domestic public opinion which doesn't want to give the US an inch, but realizes that Putin should still try to get the most he can.

Putin is acting as a shrewd business man. I am struck by the fact that most Russians appear to be very proficient business men. If only they hadn't drank the Communist Kool-Aid for 75 years... [wacko]

[Lazarus Long]

http://story.news.ya...=1512&ncid=1480

US considering sanctions on Syria
22 minutes ago World - AFP

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The United States said it may impose diplomatic and economic sanctions on Syria and called on Damascus to reject Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s supporters, weapons of mass destruction and terrorism.

"We will examine possible measures of a diplomatic, economic or other nature as we move forward," Secretary of State Colin Powell said in comments indicating greater attention on Syria as the Iraq war comes to an end.

The White House, meanwhile, branded Syria a "terrorist state" and a "rogue nation" and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Syria has conducted a chemical weapons test during the past 15 months.

"We have seen a chemical weapons test in Syria over the past 12, 15 months," he said in response to Syrian denials that it has chemical weapons.

Rumsfeld said the United States also has intelligence that Syria has allowed Syrians and others enter Iraq with arms and leaflets indicating that they would be rewarded for killing Americans.

The secretary of state did not say what sanctions would be considered but officials said Washington could consider recalling its ambassador to Damascus. It could also downgrade diplomatic relations as it did once in 1986.

Syria is already subject to some US sanctions as it is designated a "state sponsor of terrorism" by the State Department.

"They do, indeed, harbor terrorists. Syria is a terrorist state," White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said.

On Sunday, US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) charged Syria had chemical weapons and renewed the allegation that Syria has taken in remnants of Saddam's dismantled regime and his Baath party.

Britain and Israel have made similar allegations, all denied by Syria and other Arab states have also expressed concern at the mounting pressure on the Damascus regime.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) said Monday that Syria's President Bashar al-Assad has promised his country will stop fleeing Iraqis from crossing its border.

And Blair told the House of Commons that Britain and the United States had no plans to invade Syria, despite the US charges that senior Iraqi regime figures were taking refuge in the country.

"I spoke with President Bashar al-Assad over the weekend and he assured me that they would interdict anybody who's crossing over the border from Iraq into Syria," Blair said, adding: "I believe they are doing that."

The United States has been taking an increasingly hard line on Syria however.

"Do you think the White House and President Bush should look the other way at the fact that Syria is taking in Iraqi leaders?" the White Hose spokesman asked. "Do you think we should just ignore it? I think Syria understands our message."

Powell noted that Syria had pledged last week to close its border with Iraq to all non-humanitarian traffic. But he again warned Damascus specifically against allowing any one of the 55 senior Iraqi officials -- led by Saddam and his sons -- wanted by US forces to cross.

"These are the kinds of individuals who should not be allowed to find safe haven in Syria," he said.

"Once they get into Syria and start heading to Damascus, I would expect Syrian authorities would do everything they could not to provide these people safe haven," Powell said.

The secretary said the overthrow of Saddam's regime had fundamentally changed the environment in the Middle East and that support for terrorism or terrorist regimes as well as the pursuit of weapons of mass destruction would no longer be tolerated.

"We believe that in light of this new environment they should review their actions and their behavior, not only with respect to who gets haven in Syria and weapons of mass destruction but especially the support of terrorist activity," Powell said.

"We have a new situation in the region and we hope that all the nations in the region will now review their past practices and behavior," he said.

The United States withdrew its ambassador to Syria in 1986 and imposed administrative sanctions after evidence surfaced of direct Syrian involvement in an attempt to blow up an Israeli airplane.

The envoy returned a year later, in response to Syrian actions against terrorism, including the expulsion of the Abu Nidal Organization and its assistance in freeing a US hostage.

[Lazarus Long]

Just to clarify: I said Russia was trying to moderate its stance and if we are apparently going to move against Syria with sanctions first but this approach with is going to have little to no teeth if the rest of the Nations of the region and the EU are not backing it. They have in fact been trying to go back to the table with us but we have effectively pulled the chair out from under them as they sat down by so quickly engaging Syria; so instead I expect a deterioration of relations to come. I also expect Germany to begin to correct its economic problems by rebuilding Russia’s High tech Weapons ability, probably with French contractors as well.

Also if we go to war against Syria we can expect the battlefield to include Israel and there is no way they can stay out. So the entire Islamic world would be enjoined one way or another. This isn't going to lead to peace but it will depopulate much of that part of the world.

I expect serious realignment of fore to continue and a serious new arms race with greatly increased proliferation of WMD's not a lessoning at all.

India is claiming a right of Preemptive First Strike prerogative against Pakistan using the same argument we are in Iraq and we will have to defend Pakistan against India but they are beginning an alignment with Russia that will lead to a joining of ground forces and weapons technologies. Other countries will be attracted to that alliance in order to oppose and balance our power in the region strategically and this will inevitably lead to the justification for an arms race that our Military Industrial Establishment is counting on, but it will reduce cooperation in the war on terrorism and increase the effectiveness of asymmetric warfare.

http://story.news.ya...30414192801&e=3

Egypt, Jordan demand withdrawal of foreign forces from Iraq
26 minutes ago Mideast - AFP

CAIRO (AFP) - Egypt and Jordan are calling for the withdrawal of foreign forces from Iraq (news - web sites) and the formation of a "representative Iraqi government", their respective foreign ministers Ahmed Maher and Marwan Moasher said.

They were speaking after talks between President Hosni Mubarak (news - web sites) and King Abdullah II of Jordan on the situation in Iraq following the defeat of Saddam Hussein's regime by US-led forces.

Maher urged "the withdrawal of the foreign forces and the formation of a government chosen by the Iraqi people."

"We want a government which will really represent the Iraqi people in all their components, and that will be the criteria by which we will judge any government which will be set up in Baghdad," he said.

"We want a credible Iraqi government representative of the Iraqi people largely from the inside", Moasher said, also calling for the withdrawal of foreign forces.

He did not say if he was against certain exiled Iraqi opposition such as Ahmed Chalabi, head of the Iraqi National Council, who has the backing of some figures within the US administration.

Moasher said Egypt and Jordan were working together to create "an effective Arab role which will help in setting up a government representative of the Iraqi people which can preserve the unity of Iraq."

In Amman, Moasher later said Jordan's King Abdullah II would travel to Bahrain and then on to Saudi Arabia Tuesday to discuss the situation in Iraq, the official Petra news agency reported.

Egypt and Jordan are both allies of the United States but strongly opposed the assault on Iraq, which aimed at overthrowing President Saddam Hussein and neutralising his alleged weapons of mass destruction.

Mubarak's office said earlier his talks with King Abdullah were focused on "the need to put a halt to the chaos in Iraq, to restore order and form an interim government."

Arab countries are concerned that the current unrest in post-Saddam Iraq could deteriorate into a full-fledged civil war and spread to other states in the Arab world.

The foreign ministers of countries neighbouring Iraq are to meet in Riyadh on Friday to review the fallout of the war, Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal said.

Amid the preparations, Prince Saud visited Damascus on Monday to discuss Iraqi security and sovereignty with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

Referring to US allegations against Syria, claiming it has weapons of mass destruction and is aiding senior officials of Saddam Hussein's regime to escape, Maher said, "We are going to raise this question with our Arab brothers."

"What has happened must not happen again," he added, without elaborating.