* BJKlein Official Chat - The Aging Disease... Progeria
<Antonei> Hi John
<BJKlein> Assistant Professor at the Pittsburgh Development Center, University of Pittsburgh, Antonei B. Csoka discusses his research of the premature aging disease, known as progeria.
<BJKlein> we can go ahead to questions.. unless Antonei has other suggestions.
<Jonesey> has a cure been found, antonei?
<Antonei> sure, fire away!
<Randolfe> How does progeria aging differ from general aging?
<Nebson> do we all have progeria to a degree, or is it an On or Off type thing?
<BJKlein> Reference:
http://imminst.org/f...=ST&f=63&t=2821<hkhenson> wassail
<BJKlein> welcome Keith
<Antonei> no, no cure yet.I think that will take a few years
<Antonei> Nobody knows right now how much progeria is like normal aging
<BJKlein> Antonei, feel free to take your time.. no rush
<Jonesey> any effective treatments at all that at least ameliorate some symptoms?
<hkhenson> a few years?
<hkhenson> <<--impressed
<John_Ventureville> I would think more than a few years to find a cure
<John_Ventureville> since we don't seem to know very much about the full mechanisms involved
<Antonei> I think it's a good bet that it will teach us a lot about normal aging because the affected children don't just look old, they get most of the age-related diseases such as heart disease, arthritis etc.
<Randolfe> If progeria causes accelerated aging, is there anything that seems like age regression?
<hkhenson> actually john perhaps not. they now know exactly what causes it.
<hkhenson> which is no end of impressive
<Antonei> the mutation in progeria is in a gene caleed Lamin A (LMNA) which is a component of the nuclear membrane. It was a complete surprise to everybody I think
<hkhenson> antonei, can you say a few words about how you tracked it down to a single base pair?
<Randolfe> Can they induce progeria through gene insertion, etc?
<Antonei> I think a lot of people were expecting a telomere defect ot DNA repair or something like that
<hkhenson> i.e., was it just brute force comparisons?
<hkhenson> I know I was.
<Randolfe> Is progeria inherited through the mitochondria? Or in any other fashion?
<John_Ventureville> so was the culprit in a sense much simpler than expected?
<Jonesey> why don't kids with progeria also grow at an accelerated rate? they just seem to skip normal maturation and go straight to senility
<Antonei> Yes, I'm turning normal skin cells into progeria-loke cells by gene transfection (transfer)
<BJKlein> wow.. that's cool
<Antonei> no, it's not mitos, though some people predicted that
<hkhenson> I also know progeria kids have been reported to have short telomeres
<Jonesey> something is strange there, simple accelerated aging should mean rapid growth in the young
<Nebson> i think aging and growth are two seperate processes
<hkhenson> has the report on short telomeres been replicated to where you can count on the data being good?
<Randolfe> To what age do kids with progeria life? Do they mature at a normal rate mentally?
<Antonei> the short telomeres in progeria needs to be reinvestigated I think. It could be so, but it's hard to think of a connection between the disrupted nucl;ear membrane and telomers
<Antonei> they usually live into their mid-teens
<Jonesey> antonei:why don't they grow fast?
<hkhenson> I.e., 1/4th to one sixth of normal life spans.
<John_Ventureville> like in the Robin Williams film "Jack"?
<hkhenson> they don't grow fast, in fact they hardly grow at all.
<Antonei> development in general depends on a lot of signals form the pituitary in the brain. but the brain is one of the few organs that is not affected in progeria
<Jonesey> or tom hanks, "Big"
<Randolfe> Are there cases of "mild progeria" with people living a bit longer?
<Antonei> yes, they have very poor growth
<Antonei> yes, there are milder cases caused by different mutations in the same gene
<hkhenson> the whole thing is absolutely fascinating and possibly of no real interest to life extension at all. but that's not known
<Randolfe> I think it is of GREAT INTEREST because it might hold the key to essential questions about aging.
<hkhenson> antonei, do you know what that gene *does*
<hkhenson> ?
<Antonei> I think it will takea while to figure out if we can apply the knowledge learned about progeria to life axtension
<Antonei> the gene prodeces a component of the inner nuclear membrane
<Nebson> in my experience, i find that everything is applicable to everything. Its just a matter of "how directly"
<Randolfe> Have any studies been done on people living to 100 yrs plus. I thought I read they found a gene for that also.
<Antonei> the LAmin A protein is involved in many cellular processes such as DNA replication, RNA splicing, gene expression control
<Antonei> Yes, there are some genes that predispose to longer life. Several of them are involved in cholesterol metabolism
<BJKlein> Antonei, what brought you to study progeria?
<Antonei> I've always been interested in it. I just found it fascinating that one gene could apparently accelerate aging
<BJKlein> Who has the most advanced lab thus far?
<Antonei> in progeria research?
<BJKlein> besides yourself
<BJKlein> yes..
<Jonesey> does progeria happen in animals, or has it been induced by creating this LMNA mutation in any animals?
<Randolfe> I
<Antonei> I think it's too early to say right now. Several people played important roles in identifying the gene (including myself if I may blow my own trumpet for a second),
<Randolfe> Are there any drugs in the "trail stage" for progeria?
<hkhenson> but it is a membrane bound protean. I had no idea that bound proteans were involved in messing with DNA splicing, replication, and control.
<Jonesey> seems like it should be at least replicable in chimps?
<Antonei> Jonesey: yes
<hkhenson> heck, you can replicate it in mice
<Antonei> yes, I'm making mouse models of the disease
<Jonesey> in these mice, has calorie restriction extended lifespan among the progeria-affected animals in the way it extends lifespan in normal mice?
<Antonei> CR hasn'r been tried on the progeria mice yet
<Jonesey> hm.... someone should try that asap?!
<hkhenson> progeria victims look like they were calorie restricted jonesey
<Jonesey> hkh:calorie restricted mice live a long time, what do you mean?
<Antonei> the lamina of the inner nuclear membrane seems to be involved in a lot of things that people never suspected even a few years ago
<hkhenson> I would have been you long odds that progeria was a result of not reseting the telomere counter. I would have been wrong it looks like
<John_Ventureville> I sometimes wonder if unknown to us there are people who through a genetic anomaly live much, much longer than the majority
<Antonei> It may turn out that the lamina is involved in maintaining stable gene expression and this gets messed up in progeria
<Jonesey> you're wrong about "looking like CR" too. you're on a roll hkh
<John_Ventureville> I probably have seen too many Highlander episodes
<hkhenson> jonesey, the look starved.
<Randolfe> Do chrildren or mice with progeria have shorter telomere?
<John_Ventureville> or just very thin
<Nebson> old people look starved too, some anyway
<Jonesey> hkh:cr animals don't look starved. they look alive long after their well fed counterparts are dead.
<Antonei> it still may turn out that the telomeres interact with the lamina A stran=ge thin g is that you cann immortalize progeria cells with telomerase just like normal cells
<Jonesey> starved=marasmus, kwashiorkor, and all that good stuff that leads to illness and death
<hkhenson> that's really interesting!
<Randolfe> I'd hate to choose between "looking alive" and being well fed.
<Jonesey> hehe Randolfe you already do have to choose.
<Antonei> I'm looking at telomere function in progeria cells but I don't have definitive results yet
<hkhenson> has anyone tried treating progeria victims with telomerase?
<Jonesey> for now anyway till something approaching the effectiveness of CR for life extension is perfected
<Randolfe> I'll die fat and happy before I'd starve the rest of my life. Personal choice.
<Antonei> the starved look in progeria is a result of lipodystrophy. The fat cells just seem to die
<hkhenson> wow.
<Randolfe> Is the food intake normal in children with progeria?
<hkhenson> if you could figure out how to do that commercially . . . . .
<Antonei> heh he
<John_Ventureville> is it true you can be a weightlifter/bodybuilder and still practice a CR diet?
<Nebson> LOL @ hkhenson
<Antonei> yes, food intake is normal
<Randolfe> Do they ever get fat?
<hkhenson> do they *all* have this defect?
<Antonei> telomerase hasn't been tried on patients
<Jonesey> john:many athletes practice CR to keep weight down for performance reasons, including bodybuilders who are not super heavyweights
<hkhenson> or are there related defects that can have the same effect?
<Antonei> hkhenson: yes
<hkhenson> ah.
<hkhenson> like upstream promoters?
<hkhenson> defective upstream promoters
<Randolfe> Are there enough people with this disease to study in sizeable groups?
<Antonei> The Werner's syndrome phenotype seems similar to progeria but that disease is caused by a mutation in a DNA helicase
<hkhenson> sorry, what is a helicase?
<Antonei> Randolfe: we don't really need large groups now that we can go to animal models
<hkhenson> similar to histones that the DNA winds on?
<Antonei> it unwinds DNA prior to replication
<hkhenson> ah.
<hkhenson> so these are deep DNA housekeeping mechanisms
<Antonei> yes
<Randolfe> Since this doesn't affect the brian, you don't get Alzheimer's, etc?
<Antonei> no
<hkhenson> I expact that these are only the rare ones.
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<hkhenson> the few that let development proceed to birth and beyond.
<Nebson> why doesn't it affect the brain?
* BJKlein welcome Gustavo
<hkhenson> where most of this class would never let them develope that far.
<Antonei> It could be becasue the gene that is mutated. LAmin A, is not expressed much in the brain
<Randolfe> Do you only get heart disease and stroke? Are there other diseases of aging also?
<hkhenson> LAmin A is definately a membrane bound protean?
<Antonei> they have a lot of joint problems
<hkhenson> or can it leak out of the membrane?
<Antonei> skin atrophy too
<Randolfe> Like old people get arthritsis?
<Antonei> yes
<BJKlein> Antonei, how did you hook up as an Alcor Advisor
<hkhenson> the geometry of this is confusing me. most of the replication proteans float freely in the nucleas
<Antonei> it's not membrane bound , just very close to the membrane. It also forms a lattice-like structure all througouht the nucleus
<Antonei> It's part of the nuclear matrix
<hkhenson> ah, much less confusing
<Randolfe> Is there a hereditery pattern, mother side, father side?
<hkhenson> none ran
<hkhenson> each one is a new mutation as far as can be seen
<Antonei> It seems like it always comes from the father. Paternal age effect
<Nebson> it it equally common in males as females?
<Nebson> ah
<hkhenson> ah!
<Jonesey> any threshold age antonei in the father?
<hkhenson> really. so the older the father, the more likely
<Randolfe> But is it ever inherited?
<Antonei> It is a new mutation in each case. Probably arises in the germ cells of the father
<Jonesey> who can live old enough to pass on progeria?
<Nebson> oooh... so is this similar to the reason Dolly aged prematurely?
<Antonei> Nobody's ever live long ebough to pass it on to my knowledge
<hkhenson> and coming from the father, it is imprinted that way?
<Jonesey> i thought dolly had old telomeres
<hkhenson> is the mother's copy active?
<Antonei> I don't think it's imprinting in the usual sense
<Randolfe> Dolly didn't age prematurely. That is propaganda.
<John_Ventureville> a person can be a carrier of the gene without being actually afflicted with the condition
<John_Ventureville> and pass it on that way
<Antonei> yes, the mother's copy is good
<hkhenson> so this effect is dominate.
<Randolfe> So, it is only passed from the Father?
<Antonei> you can be a carrier, but only in your germ cells. Spermatogonial stem cells probably
<Antonei> yes, only passed form the father.
<hkhenson> has there ever been a case of two in a family?
<Antonei> Bruce, I've always been intereseted in cryonics. Think it might work
<Antonei> I think there have been a couple of cases in the same family
<Nebson> have any affected children ever been ventrified?
<hkhenson> I presume you are signed up antonei?
<Randolfe> Is there a relationship between the age of the Father and appearance of the disease? They say that older men have more problems with offspring
<hkhenson> interesting. that would imply a clone of sperm cells.
<Antonei> yes, fathers are older than average
<Antonei> yes
<BJKlein> I'd suspect most Alcor Advisors are signed up? or am i wrong?
<haploid> ventrified ?
<Antonei> don't know!
<Nebson> ventrified... i might be spelling it wrong. the process of preserving
<Antonei> vitrified?
<Nebson> yea sorry
<Antonei> I don't think any progeria kids have been vitrified
<Randolfe> No one has time to spell right on these forums.
<Antonei> me nither
<BJKlein> heh.. spelling optional
<hkhenson> I don't think any has been offered cryonics.
<Nebson> maybe they should
<Antonei> no, no offers I think
<hkhenson> which is a shame because that's about all we could offer them
<Antonei> Right now, yes
<BJKlein> how many die each year?
<Nebson> i think the parents should be informed of the option
<Antonei> But I'm optimstic that treatments will come in a few years
<hkhenson> that would make a hell of a sf story. :-)
<hkhenson> lets see bj.
<hkhenson> there are only about 40 or 50 in the whole world
<hkhenson> and they live for 15 years.
<Antonei> Yes, but as you know a lot of people have a strange attitude to cryonics and it might offend a lot of parents
* BJKlein nods
<hkhenson> so on the average you could get 5 dying a year
<hkhenson> roughly.
<Nebson> hmmm.... you'd wake up, an early teen in a futuristic world and your parents are dead.
<Nebson> (or maybe they joined you)
<Antonei> The incidence at birth is 1 in 4 million
<Randolfe> It could be seen as immoral to offer false hope of revival to desparate parents. We have that problem with cloning.
<hkhenson> and all come from fathers side . . . interesting.
<Nebson> anything "could be seen as immoral" randolfe
<Randolfe> Could a male have himself checked to see if he carried this gene?
<hkhenson> of course it could be that some come from the mother's side, but only in proportion to the number of divisions from the original cell.
<BJKlein> Antonei, is the reason why you're interested in cryonics is because you think death = oblivion?
<haploid> offend a lot of parents? What's offensive about cryonics?
<hkhenson> which is why you get so many more from the father's side.
<Antonei> Yes, I don't believe in afterlife
<BJKlein> do you discuss this idea with friends/family?
<cyborg01> I don't understand why the same mutation on the mother's side doesn't have the same effect?
<hkhenson> no cyborg, it just happens much less frequently.
<Antonei> The gene doesn't get mutated in the mother;s germ cells (eggs)
<hkhenson> sperm cells are much further away from the original
<cyborg01> Oh I see
<John_Ventureville> it could be seen as "taking advantage" of grieving parents
<Nebson> i think people find it offensive because they want to just "come to terms with death", and so they don't WANT hope
<Antonei> Yes, I discuss cryonics openly with most people. But not a lot of scientists
<hkhenson> strickly because there are so many fewer
<Antonei> Yes, death is still the ultimate taboo in many ways
<BJKlein> interesting... are scientist not as open for some reason?
<hkhenson> and the original cell is certain not to have this mutation.
<Randolfe> What percentage of scientists have positive attitudes toward cryonics?
<hkhenson> not if the individual is reproducing. :-)
<hkhenson> hmm
<BJKlein> Randolfe, i'd suspect less than 1%
<Randolfe> That is depressing.
<Antonei> Some are receptive to the idea, but I'm afraid that many think of it as quackery. Maybe that's paranoia on my part.
<John_Ventureville> if I had the money to do it (let's say 100 million) I would do a cryonics infomercial/documentary to North America, Europe and Japan
<hkhenson> how many cell divisions is the typical sperm cell from the zigote in a 50 yo man?
<BJKlein> Antonie, i suspect you're correct in your feeling.. most scientist see cryonics = crackpot
<Randolfe> John, here's hooping you win a lottery.
<John_Ventureville> BJ, didn't you ever see the Discovery Channel's "Immortality on Ice" documentary?
<BJKlein> i did
<BJKlein> loved it
<hkhenson> I was in that one.
<Antonei> I think if someone were able to vitrify and revive a mouse, that would change a lot of minds. And the world
<John_Ventureville> LOL
<Antonei> Was that about cryonics
<hkhenson> unfortunately, I think it is unlikely we will be able to do that short of nanotechnology
<John_Ventureville> those cryobiologists ripped us up
<BJKlein> Immortality on Ice = Alcor
<Antonei> maybe gene therapy
<Randolfe> Antonei, that is a brillant idea. One revived mouse and cryonics is accepted!
<John_Ventureville> *a celebrity is among us!*
<Antonei> ok, thanks, Bruce
<Nebson> heh... technically its not "Ice" anymore
<hkhenson> big deal john, I was masked. :-)
<John_Ventureville> Alcor and Steve Bridge
<BJKlein> Keith Henson = L5 Society founder and long time Cryonics supporter
<Nebson> L5?
<John_Ventureville> I'm experiencing quite a time lag from when I send a comment
<Antonei> Maybe some day somebod will make a transgenic mouse expressing beetle or fish anti-freeze proteins. That might be a step in the right direction
<Randolfe> I thought BJ Klein was the only celebrity here.
<BJKlein> Randolfe.. look who's talking
<hkhenson> before a cult made me an exile, I used to do cardiac surgery for alcor
<Antonei> good job, keith
<BJKlein> Mr Activism himslef.. Randy Wicker has decades to my years
<hkhenson> it was interesting to learn. it is harder to work on surface mount electronics than doing putting people on cardiac bypass.
<Antonei> Anybody know what's going on with Supended Animation Inc?
<BJKlein> "L4 and L5 Lagrangian libration points might be ideal locations for the large habitats"
<Randolfe> They picked the wrong town and got bumped.
<John_Ventureville> Antonei, could there be a transgenic human within twenty years with those anti-freeze protein genes?
<BJKlein>
http://www.l5news.org/L5history.htm<BJKlein> space habitats, that is..
<John_Ventureville> Boca Raton said NO to them
<cyborg01> A vitrified person can be uploaded to a computer... that's the nearest progress that can be made IMO
<Nebson> or how about using gene therapy to incorporate that anti-freeze gene into ourselves...
<BJKlein> John, i heard they were retrying there? no?
<Antonei> I suppose in theory you could get the genes in there using a retrovirus or somethibng
<John_Ventureville> they should try Miami
<Randolfe> I'm conflicted. I want to survive but I hate the cold.
<BJKlein> Boca firm revives request to do research on body-freezing
<BJKlein>
http://imminst.org/f...t=0<BJKlein> Jan 12 - 2003
<BJKlein> 2004 sory
<BJKlein> Randy, you won't feel a thing
<Antonei> Bruce, how long have you been interested in life extension and cryonics
<Jonesey> antonei:any interest in doing CR experiments on your progeria mouse models?
<Randolfe> Cyboirg, upload me into your computer and I'll make it crash. (joking)
<BJKlein> since reading Dreslers EoC 1994
<BJKlein> Drexler's
<Antonei> Yes, I'll try CR and resveratrol too!
<Jonesey> cool
<Antonei> I'm also going to try therapeutic cloning
<Jonesey> what's the timeframe in which you'll have some results do you think?
<Antonei> Couple of years
<Jonesey> i volunteer for cloning
<Antonei> therapeutic cloning!
<Jonesey> heheh
<hkhenson> antonei, if you know any of the mathusla mouse folks,
<Randolfe> Why not go for the whole bananna? Your genotype could live on through a later-born twin. You don't have to die completely.
<Antonei> yes, I know Aubrey
<hkhenson> you might talk to them about splicing in mole rat genes
<hkhenson> mole rats live 20 plus years
<Jonesey> mole spies live a lot longer
<Jonesey> least if they don't get caught
<Antonei> I don't think cloning is a route to immortality
<Jonesey> is the genetic diff bet mole rats and other rats pinned down?
<Jonesey> i know a bunch of mouse breeds have been sequenced
<Randolfe> No. But it keeps your genotype alive, the formula that is you.
<BJKlein> Randy sees the world through cloning eyes,
<Antonei> true, but I don't think that's enough
<Gustavo> I don´t want my genotye to survive, I want ME to survive
<Antonei> yes
<BJKlein> and that baby too, eh Gustavo?
<BJKlein> how is the girl?
<hkhenson> a big dose of stem cells might have good effects on progeria patients
<Randolfe> My later-born twin will see that the cryonics lab revives me!
<hkhenson> or might not
<Gustavo> don't ask me again or you run the risk of getting 20 mb of her pictures in your mailbox
<Antonei> if you can correct the mutation in the stemm cells first, yes. I've been thinking about that
<hkhenson> assuming, of course that the stem cells didn't have the defect
<Gustavo> she's great
<BJKlein> heh.. Gustavo.. i'll remember
<hkhenson> an interesting possibility . . . ..
<Antonei> I think stem cells have such enormous potential to treat disease
<hkhenson> antonei, this mutation has to be in a particular spot
<hkhenson> ?
<Antonei> yes
<cyborg01> or a head transplant
<hkhenson> hmm
<hkhenson> are there known mutations in other places that don't have this effect?
<Randolfe> Antonei, five generations of cloned mice seemed to have "longer" telomeres but I never foudn out if they actually lived longer. Do you know?
<hkhenson> same protean of course
<Antonei> No I think they had normal lifespan
<hkhenson> what I am wondering is if the effect is to generate a toxic protean.
<Randolfe> SWhucks!
<hkhenson> so the effect is not something missing, but a toxic one
<Antonei> Yes, you can get mutations in the same protein, that produce other diseases. Very rare to see that in genetics
<hkhenson> hmm.
<BJKlein> Antonei, how many are working with you in the lab?
<Antonei> Yes, it's a gain-of-function I think
<Randolfe> Cyborg, see Patrick Dixon's story on the monkey who had a head transplant. Terrible.
<hkhenson> so this one, frame shift? missing single base pair?
<Antonei> About 6 of us
<BJKlein> and you're funded ok?
<Randolfe> Any drugs in any trials to treat this diosease? I guess it is an orphan disease.
<BJKlein> Professor Robert White, from Cleveland Ohio, transplanted a whole monkey's head onto another monkey's body
<BJKlein>
http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/1263758.stm<Antonei> It's a single base change in the DNA that causes an altered splicing in the RNA, which removes 150 nucleotides. So you delete 50 amino acids from the protein
<Gustavo> BJ in that case, would you say that you transplanted the head or the body?
<Antonei> Yes, funding's OK.
<Nebson> Woah... could it move?
<Jonesey> what a bad amino acid trip
<hkhenson> how big is the whole protean?
<Antonei> There are some drugs that people have been thinking about
<BJKlein> Gustavo, I'd say the head.. as this is where the important stuff is.. i hope..heh
<Jonesey> heh i've been thinking about a few drugs myself
<Randolfe> The monkey tried to bite every hand that came near its head. Terrible story.
<John_Ventureville> what year was the experiment done?
<BJKlein> not a good day for monkey rights
<Gustavo> see BJ, because the head is the important thing, that it is the body that was transplanted
<hkhenson> randolfe, did he leave the original head on as well?
<cyborg01> Protean? or protein you mean
<Gustavo> so that the head could survive
<John_Ventureville> wouldn't the entire head be rejected by the bodies immune system?
<BJKlein> Good point
<hkhenson> tein
<Randolfe> No, it was a new head but the Monkey couldn't move its body.
<Nebson> wow, still amazing
<Antonei> 664 aminos
<Randolfe> Debate was whethert the monkey felt pain. Many argued that it did because it tried to bite every hand.
<BJKlein> John, I think the head transplant was 2001
<John_Ventureville> dang!
<John_Ventureville> I thought you would say the early sixties
<Nebson> well if somebody cut off your head, woudln't you want to bite everythign that came near it next time too?
<HarveyNewstrom> They couldn't hook up the monkey's brain to the nervous system. They only hooked up blood, and it was a paralyzed monkey head with a disconnected body sewn to it.
<cyborg01> Head transplant could be a good thing for quadraplegics and similar conditions where the body cannot be sustained anymore
<Randolfe> No, much before that. The Russians traqnsplanted a dogs head decades ago.
<hkhenson> so most of it is there . . . 50/664 missing.
<John_Ventureville> even with my head cut off and transplanted to a new quadriplegic body, I would never try to bite anyone!
<Antonei> yes, most of the protein's there
<John_Ventureville> just not polite
<BJKlein> official chat will end soon.. Antonei, feel free to say as long as you wish
<Ge> Even if there were no *physical* pain, wouldn't the animal be in distress, waking up with no movable limbs?
<Randolfe> I really wouldn't want Christopher Reeve's life.
<Antonei> thanks, Bruce. I'll sign off sson I think
* BJKlein Official Chat Ends
<Ge> Randolfe: i agree with you
<hkhenson> well, thanks very much antonei
<John_Ventureville> yes, thank you
<BJKlein> Thanks Antonei... you've been a wonderful guest
<Randolfe> Thanks Antonei. You were very interesting and informative
<HarveyNewstrom> Thanks, Antonei!
<hkhenson> you might want to consider the effects of a shortened protein being toxic or failing to do the job somehow
<Antonei> Thanks everybody, I enjoyed it. Let's do it again some time
<cyborg01> Antonei: one more q: how difficult is it to trace the downstream pathways of that gene?
<Antonei> Keith: yes, I think you're right
<thefirstimmortal> Thank You Antonei
<John_Ventureville> and thanks to Bruce for consistantly getting such good guests
<Antonei> I think figuring out the downstream pathways is what I'll be spending a lot of time on the next few years!
<John_Ventureville> Antonei, how old are you?
* BJKlein nods .. my pleasure
<Antonei> 37
<John_Ventureville> a young man
<BJKlein> quick question.. Antonei..
<Antonei> well, relatively :-)
<Antonei> sure..
<BJKlein> do you see Transhumanization as a viable option within the next few decades as a path to physical immortality.. are you mostly biotech?
<Antonei> as in uploading, nanotech?
<BJKlein> right
<BJKlein> becoming more than human with the help of tech.. cyborg, for lack of a better term.. posthuman
<Antonei> I'm biotech short term (20 years). Nano longer term. Not sure about uploading
* BJKlein thanks
<BJKlein> and Singularity?
<BJKlein> technological Singularity.. perhaps?
<BJKlein> come across this idea yet?
<John_Ventureville> if I understand correctly, you envision physical immortality within 20 years?
<Antonei> My problem with uploading is that it gets into the nature of consciousness and I'm not sure we have enough understanding of that yet
<hkhenson> that was a bummer. machine just went back to hard boot
<BJKlein> keith.. i'll upload the log soon
<Ge> 20 years?????really?
<Gustavo> great response antonei! I agree with you
<Gustavo> people talk about uploading assuming the mind is a digital computer... I'm not sure it is
<Antonei> Maybe a bit longer that 20 years, but within fifty years
<Antonei> yes
<John_Ventureville> so that means even you have a fighting chance at benefitting from it
<Antonei> Maybe ;-)
<Jonesey> uploading doesn't assume digital
<John_Ventureville> but would it work for old geezers in their late eighties?
<John_Ventureville> lol
<Antonei> I think there is definitely a possiblity that a singularity may happen.
<John_Ventureville> around 2040?
<John_Ventureville> earlier?
<Antonei> Don't know, of course, but within this century
<Jonesey> i think relative to most of human history, we're in a "singularity" now in that progress is pretty vertical. 100k plus yrs as a species, and only literate for a few millenia, let along agriculture, etc
<Antonei> I think Ray Kurzweil's book was very interesting. Looking forward to the next one
<BJKlein> "Singularity is Near" is the title i've heard..
<Antonei> Yeah, sounds fascinating
<John_Ventureville> the problem is we all want to make it to the promised "Singularity Land"
<BJKlein> it's been in anticipation for a year or so now
<John_Ventureville> and enjoy it firsthand
<John_Ventureville> I'm looking forward to Max More's upcoming book
<John_Ventureville> you would think by now he would have ten books out!
<BJKlein> i suspect we'll integrate with machines.. mind to computer enhancements..
<BJKlein> not total upload
<John_Ventureville> and that would hopefully offset the power of the A.I.'s
<Antonei> I think Bill Joy has some valid concerns that we don't destroy ourselves before/during the singulaity
<BJKlein> heh.. ImmInst is happy with the response/submissions for our first book
<Antonei> Yes, I'm looking forward to Max's book too
<Jonesey> how about after the singularity, we are very squabbly
<Antonei> yes
<Jonesey> the rwandans aren't gonna start loving each other cos the singularity happened. still a lot of blood feuds out there
<John_Ventureville> squabby??
<John_Ventureville> we could violate their civil rights by reprogramming their brains to live peacefully with each other
<John_Ventureville> *or not*
<Jonesey> violate the prime directive??
<Antonei> I think what we're facing is that as technology advances start to go vertical the power to do great damage requires fewer and fewer people
<Jonesey> sounds good, lets violate it for israel/palestine, india/pak, etc etc
<BJKlein> right.. and fewer and fewer AI
<Antonei> yes
<Antonei> How do we get around that. I haven't figured it out
<John_Ventureville> I see governments clamping down hard to maintain an iron grip control on the "singularity" technologies
<Gustavo> and corporations, john
<Antonei> I mean right now, it takes a government to make an atomic bomb. But in a couple of decades it will only take a small lab to make devastating biological or nano weapons
<cyborg01> More decentralization of power maybe
<John_Ventureville> I want to be a miner in the style of the classic game "Mule"
<Jonesey> i don't think it takes a gov't to make a nuke any more.
<Antonei> true, maybe even that doesn't take a govt any more. Not sure
<Jonesey> at least 3 pak nuke scientists are known to have worked with al qaeda and iran, prolly more who haven't been caught
<Gustavo> Jonesey, USA is as dangerous as pakistan and iran, right now, if not more
<hkhenson> hmm did it again
<Jonesey> that's cos USA spends 95% of planetary military expenditures or something nutty like that
<BJKlein> watch the buttons there keith
<Gustavo> exactly
<John_Ventureville> how is the U.S> more dangerious than Iran??
<hkhenson> well, US has more bombs.
<hkhenson> and it run by a religious nut.
<hkhenson> it is
<John_Ventureville> to compare the U.S. to Iran is insulting
<hkhenson> why john?
<Gustavo> I am sorry, i didn't mean it as an insult
<hkhenson> they are both run by social primates.
<Jonesey> george bush is a religious nut
<hkhenson> for your amusement, something I got wrong long ago, 1987
<John_Ventureville> think about what the U.S. has done with its nukes (restraint) compare to what Iran would most assuredly do if they had a military arsenal equal to ours.
<hkhenson> Direct evidence that couples cellular aging directly to whole body
<hkhenson> aging is limited, but the progeria victims who die of what seems to be
<hkhenson> accelerated old age (with the exception of cancer) by their early teens are
<hkhenson> known to have greatly reduced division potential in their cells. It is
<hkhenson> also interesting to note that progeria seems to be a development error,
<hkhenson> perhaps in resetting the division potential, and not a genetic defect. (If
<hkhenson> it were a genetic defect, progeria would "run in families
<hkhenson> progeria would "run in families," and it does
<hkhenson> not.)
<Jonesey> hiroshima/nagasaki survivors don't necessarily see the restraint, or all the cancer victims of nuke testing
<Gustavo> I agree again
<Gustavo> and you don't see much remorse in the US about that
<hkhenson> it will be most interesting to see how the US reacts. do they throw bush out?
<John_Ventureville> Imperial Japan needed a knockout punch to make them surrender to prevent a bloodbath conventional invasion
<hkhenson> re hiroshima, the japanese h
