34 replies to this topic

[cryofan]

We know that as christians we are agents of god's will, and therefore of the will of Christ.

But what is the will of God and of Christ?

Well, let us look to the bible"


First Corinthians 15:21 says that "For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the
resurrection of the dead."

And who is that man? THat man is Jesus.


And what is the ultimate goal of Jesus?

Corinthians 15:25 tells us that Jesus "must reign until he has put all his enemies under his
feet." And the next verse tells us what jesus wants: "The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

And what does the bible command us to do with respect to death? Matthews 10:8 says that we are to "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead. . . . "

So Jesus wants us to help him in defeating death.

And what will be our reward for helping jesus raise the dead and thereby defeat death?
Psalm 37:29 tells us that "The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein
forever."

So, if we are righteous and act according to what the bible and jesus tell us to do, to raise the dead and help jesus defeat death, then we will live on the land, this earth, forever, as immortal. Death will not harm us.

So how do we raise the dead?

Edited by cryofan, 17 March 2009 - 11:12 PM.

[Forever21]

We wear a pointy hat and a robe and say abracadabra.

[Ben Simon]

I've thought of this stuff too. So much of what we look for in religion seems to be what we're striving for with transhumanism.

Biblical passages referring to the new heaven and new earth stand out, as does the conquest of death of course.

It's an interesting comparison.

[cryofan]

well, the reason I was aware of this current in american religion is that as a child I was a jehovah's witness, a branch of protestantism that believes that after the resurrection, that the faithful will live on the earth forever. Which is basically what cryonics is all about, too.

What is sad to me is that cryonicists, as atheists (which I am as well) do not see (for all their intelligence and learning) that religion is the heart of the american culture, and that if we as cryonicists want to tap into the american mainstream, and thereby grow cryonics, that we have to RECONCILE the idea of cryonics with american protestantism. THIS is where the multitudes are--in religion. Quit touting every little poll that comes out with some minor uptick in secularism--america and homo sapiens are RELIGIOUS. Grow and DEAL. DEAL with the issue. Quit trying to be the rebel iconoclast whiz kid. Quit trying to antagonize the religious and instead USE religion to reach towards immortality. Grow up and be a REAL villain.

The american atheist tradition, which is completely aligned with cryonics, is an immature and shallow movement, an arrogant movement. I, as an atheist, and as a cryonicist, am appalled and saddened by how the atheist movement, and atheist cryonics, are not able to rise above petty antagonistic feelings and USE religion as it should be used.

Untold MILLIONS of dollars await us if we can reconcile cryonics with american protestantism. Those millions could transform cryonics into something that could save us all.

Edited by cryofan, 18 March 2009 - 04:17 AM.

[Skötkonung]

I think that the very idea of immortalism is against the will of mainstream Christianity. Any Christian who wants to become physically immortal either participates in some fringe element of the religion or is confused and most likely questioning their faith. The belief in an afterlife experienced by an immortal soul is a fundamental tenet of many branches of Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism and the Bahá'í Faith. If you honestly believe this, why would you want to maintain this existence beyond the means required to attain entrance to heaven?

Christian theology holds that Adam and Eve lost physical immortality for themselves and all their descendants in the Fall of Man, though this initial "imperishability of the bodily frame of man" was "a preternatural condition."

According to the book of Enoch, the righteous and wicked await the resurrection in separate divisions of sheol, a teaching which may have influenced Jesus' parable of Lazarus and Dives. Christians believe that every person that believes in Christ will be resurrected; Bible passages are interpreted as teaching that the resurrected body will, like the present body, be both physical (but a renewed and non-decaying physical body) and spiritual.

Specific imagery of resurrection into immortal form is found in the Pauline letters:

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
- Corinthians 15:51-58

In Romans 2:6-7 Paul declares that God "will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life", but then in Romans 3 warns that no one will ever meet this standard.

After the Last Judgment, those who have been born again will live forever in the presence of God, and those who were never born again will be abandoned to never-ending consciousness of guilt, separation from God, and punishment for sin. Eternal death is depicted in the Bible as a realm of constant physical and spiritual anguish in a lake of fire, and a realm of darkness away from God. Some see the fires of Hell as a theological metaphor, representing the inescapable presence of God endured in absence of love for God; others suggest that Hell represents complete destruction of both the physical body and of spiritual existence.

So, if you truely believe in this traditional and popular interpretation of the bible, why are you so eager to subvert the whole process and go against God's will? I think most Christians view the search for physical immortality as nothing more than pure narcissism.

Note: I pulled most of this from Wikipedia

Edited by Skotkonung, 18 March 2009 - 09:22 PM.

[bran319]

You are taking matthew 10:8 out of context. In it Jesus is strictly speaking to his twelve disciples. In his sermon on the mount he mentions nothing of the sort and this is taken as Christ's general instructions on how to live a godly life. Death is a natural consequence of our humanity. And accordingly, in death we have new life.

[cryofan]

I think that the very idea of immortalism is against the will of mainstream Christianity.

When they see a bus bearing down on them, do they step out of the way?

So, if you truely believe in this traditional and popular interpretation of the bible, why are you so eager to subvert the whole process and go against God's will?

I said twice that I am an atheist!

[VictorBjoerk]

Immortality is not against christianity. And why should god care if we die of aging rather than in an accident being 1000000 years old

[Skötkonung]

I think that the very idea of immortalism is against the will of mainstream Christianity.

When they see a bus bearing down on them, do they step out of the way?

So, if you truely believe in this traditional and popular interpretation of the bible, why are you so eager to subvert the whole process and go against God's will?

I said twice that I am an atheist!

Right, well I am an atheist too and I was being hypothetical in that I was trying to put you in the position of a Christian considering that type of belief. Sorry, I should have been clearer. Anyways, I think what I am trying to get at is that physical immortality is in conflict with Christianity. They already have their immortality if they just live in accordance to God's scriptures during this life.

There is a distinction between an immediate danger (getting hit by a car, getting shot at, running out of a burning building) and a slow progressing danger (aging). Given the long time line over which aging occurs, people tend to not find it as threatening. Furthermore, aging, unlike the former examples, is seen as a natural part of life and something that many Christians see as vetting process for entering heaven.

I think the real hope for raising research money for immortality are those "undecided" or "christian by birth, but not by practice" people who are growing in numbers around Western Europe and America. Trying to twist scripture to support your view or agenda is just praying on people's ignorance.

[Ben Simon]

Furthermore, aging, unlike the former examples, is seen as a natural part of life and something that many Christians see as vetting process for entering heaven.

What are you basing that on?

I see no logical contradictions between Christianity and life extension. I suspect some religious opposition due to your typical yuck factor responses will emerge as we approach success, but I don't expect they'll be supported by compelling scriptural evidence.

In fact I think a case could be made that curing aging is a moral imperative within a Christian worldview.

[cryofan]

everyone here but me is saying the same thing that is posted on Alcor.org---that there are no contradictions between christianity and immortalism/cryonics.

That is NOT my argument at all. I am saying that being a good christian DEMANDS that you be a good cryonicist. The bible tells us to be a disciple of jesus. THe bible records jesus telling his disciples to raise the dead. The bible says that jesus is fighting a battle against death (his FINAL battle...). The bible tells us that if we are righteous and do as jesus tells us to do--to raise the dead and help Jesus in his battle against death--that we will live on the land FOREVER. Not on in heaven, but on the land--that means here on earth.

Someone here replied by regurgitating the institutional/majoritarian interpretation of the bible regarding immortality. I do not CARE about the standard interpretation of the bible with respect to death. I already know that it leads to 100 percent death rate. I do not want to die. So I am looking in a DIFFERENT direction. I am using the verses of the Bible to support my argument. Please do not respond to my arguments with the conventional take on death and immortality. I REJECT that interpretation. That should be obvious to you.

Also, please quit regurgitating the same tired old conventional cryo-wisdom that has FAILED to grow cryonics as it needs to grow, and instead grasp the soul of america by its innards--by its religion, by its bible--and MAKE it happen.

As an example of the potential of this approach, I offer the jehovah's witnesses. This branch of protestantism (which numbers in the MILLIONS, I believe) is an outlier branch because it interprets certain bible verses to mean that after the resurrection the righteous will live on the earth forever. But as for the agency of the resurrection, they look to the invisible man in the sky. Not real credible as far as I am concerned.

With CRYONICS taking the place of the invisible man in the sky, the resurrection becomes MUCH more credible in my eyes. Or if you wish, one may instead see cryonics and cryonicists as simply carrying out the will of god and making the resurrection happen. And if we take this approach--a science-based resurrection built on EARTHLY deeds (cryonics) that are aimed at carrying out the will of god, that is, to cause the resurrection and carry out god's will--the righteous (the cryonicists who are disciples of jesus and will help him in his battle against death) are the ones who will inherit the earth and live here FOREVER. If american christians want to be righteous and live forever, as God wants them to do, they will sign up for cryonics and help cryoncists fight death with Jesus.

Now go forth among your fellow man, be as a fisherman among your fellow man, fish for new cryonicists by preaching THAT sermon, mofos, and the number of cryonicists will multiply a thousand fold, as numerous as the fish in the sea.

Edited by cryofan, 19 March 2009 - 02:32 PM.

[bran319]

Yeah, again, as I stated earlier Jesus made that command strictly to his 12 disciples. In his instructions to the masses that followed him he made no such command. Christ was on earth for a short period of time and in that time those who believed benefited from his earthly presence and the power that was given through him to his 12 disciples. If you want to believe that Jesus commanded everyone to raise the dead go right ahead but it's not scripturally supported unless you spin it. I don't think immortality is incompatible with Christianity. In fact I think orginally accoriding to scripture before man fell he probably would not have succumbed to death. However, because of our failure to Love only God and nothing else we lost that gift and new life can only be restored to us in death through faith in Jesus Christ. If you don't want to accept that there is no problem, you are free to believe what you want but unless you can prove otherwise without taking verses out of context you must accept that it is not scripturally supported.

Edited by bran319, 19 March 2009 - 02:27 PM.

[cryofan]

Yeah, again, as I stated earlier Jesus made that command strictly to his 12 disciples.

I said that we ARE his disciples. That is what he wants us to be. He spoke to his disciples. THe bible tells us to be his disciples. Thus his words to his disciples are also to US.

In his instructions to the masses that followed him he made no such command.

So? I already offered my argument to refute that. We are his disciples. His instructions to his disciples apply to us.

Christ was on earth for a short period of time and in that time those who believed benefited from his earthly presence and the power that was given through him to his 12 disciples. If you want to believe that Jesus commanded everyone to raise the dead go right ahead but it's not scripturally supported unless you spin it.

Your argument is conclusory and based solely on your opinion, and not on evidence. I quoted the bible. If you have a problem with my evidence, please address it. Your conclusory opinion is not argument.

[bran319]

We are his disciples in that we follow his teachings on earth. The 12 were clearly singled out for bigger things and were designated his disciples as such. There were also apostles and followers. You are free to believe what you want but I have pointed out your flaws and related the point of christianity. Good day.

[Skötkonung]

Furthermore, aging, unlike the former examples, is seen as a natural part of life and something that many Christians see as vetting process for entering heaven.

What are you basing that on?

I see no logical contradictions between Christianity and life extension. I suspect some religious opposition due to your typical yuck factor responses will emerge as we approach success, but I don't expect they'll be supported by compelling scriptural evidence.

In fact I think a case could be made that curing aging is a moral imperative within a Christian worldview.

What are you basing your inference on? I have not seen any evidence to support what you are saying. So lets see it...

To illustrate my point, I pulled this quotation from a popular sermon:

The lonesomeness and shock of losing Sue was tempered by God's promise that our Christian faith, would be the link that would allow us to see each other again someday. Our relationship would be different in heaven, but the Bible seemed to promise that we would be even closer friends there then we were here. I continually focused on the bigger picture and it seemed to counteract the dark thoughts and problems associated with the aging process. In fact, I found a real desire to finish this life well, to stay involved in God's service to the end. With an eternal focus I found I could get beyond my own problems and see and be more responsive to the problems that others faced. I had more time to be useful in the Lord's service and found meaning and purpose in following His leading. I learned to love and trust my God more as time passed and at moments had glimpses of those waiting for me in heaven.

Having been raised in a religious family, I can attest this is a very common theme amongst contemporary Christians. I'm not saying that someday this opinion may not change in regard to anti-aging therapies (the ever shifting cultural zeitgeist), but specifically regarding immortality, most Christians will likely see it as something that is keeping them from fulfilling the scripture (in my above post) and from rejoining with their loved ones in Heaven. Christianity teaches the resurrection of the body (in the sense of survival of personality) as well as immortality of the soul. They don't need science for this to occur. It is the arrogance of man to think he can do it better than God.

You may not agree with this interpretation, you may even want to change it, but that doesn't alter the current attitudes regarding science and physical immortality. Maybe people will change their beliefs to reconcile their need for physical survival with their faith (much like the debate over stem cells), but at the moment, I see Christians dismissing the idea as narcissistic. It remains to be seen.

Your argument is conclusory and based solely on your opinion, and not on evidence. I quoted the bible. If you have a problem with my evidence, please address it. Your conclusory opinion is not argument.

His argument is based on the predominant Christian opinion towards physical immortality. Don't you think that if this was a common interpretation of scripture, given all the studying and lifetimes worth of philosophizing, someone would have come to the same conclusion as you and began teaching it? As far as I am aware, this has not occurred. Feel free to prove me wrong - show me evidence.

everyone here but me is saying the same thing that is posted on Alcor.org---that there are no contradictions between christianity and immortalism/cryonics.

Of course people will say that, you are posting on a forum dedicated to the idea of life extension. Obviously, that draws people, who for one reason or another, believe that human life should be physically maintained for as long as possible.

Here is a suggestion: Why don't you test your idea on a Christian forum instead of at ImmInst / Alcor where most people are atheist, agnostic, or liberally religious.

Try this link: http://biblediscussion.org/

Post back here when you have results.

Edited by Skotkonung, 19 March 2009 - 08:30 PM.

[cryofan]

oh, no, I have been ousted. The shame, the shame.....

[cryofan]

1 Corinthians 15:13 (21st Century King James Version)


13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

[cryofan]

Jesus told his disciples to raise the dead (as cryonicists are trying to do). How can a person tell if he or she may be a disciple and thus be commanded to raise the dead?

I look to wikipedia for the answers, as I am sure jesus would have:

=============

Discipleship

[edit]"Love one another"
Main article: New Commandment
A definition for who is a disciple is Jesus' self-referential example from the Gospel of John 13:34-35: "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." (NRSV) Further definition by Jesus can be found in the Gospel of Luke, Chapter 14. Beginning with a testing trap laid out by his adversaries regarding observance of the Jewish Sabbath, Jesus uses the opportunity to lay out the problems with the religiosity of his adversaries against his own teaching by giving a litany of shocking comparisons between various, apparent socio-political and socio-economic realities versus the meaning of being his disciple. Examples which are expressed definitions of a disciple are:
Luke 14:26 Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:27 Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:33 So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions.
[edit]"Be transformed"
Generally in Christian theology, discipleship is a term used to refer to a disciple's transformation from some other World view and practice of life into that of Jesus Christ, and so, by way of Trinitarian theology, of God himself.[citation needed] Note the Apostle Paul's description of this process, that the disciple "not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God—what is good and acceptable and perfect." (Romans 12:2) Therefore a disciple is not simply an accumulator of information or one who merely changes moral behavior in regard to the teachings of Jesus Christ, but seeks a fundamental shift toward the ethics of Jesus Christ in every way, including complete devotion to God.[citation needed] In several Christian traditions, the process of becoming a disciple is called the Imitation of Christ, after the famous book of that title by Thomas à Kempis. See also Imitatio dei. Martin Luther called on Christians to be "little Christs."


------------------------


So, if you love other humans, you can be a disciple, and that means that the instruction jesus gave to his disciples (to raise the dead) is meant for....YOU!

[Leukippos]

well, the reason I was aware of this current in american religion is that as a child I was a jehovah's witness, a branch of protestantism that believes that after the resurrection, that the faithful will live on the earth forever. Which is basically what cryonics is all about, too.

What is sad to me is that cryonicists, as atheists (which I am as well) do not see (for all their intelligence and learning) that religion is the heart of the american culture, and that if we as cryonicists want to tap into the american mainstream, and thereby grow cryonics, that we have to RECONCILE the idea of cryonics with american protestantism. THIS is where the multitudes are--in religion. Quit touting every little poll that comes out with some minor uptick in secularism--america and homo sapiens are RELIGIOUS. Grow and DEAL. DEAL with the issue. Quit trying to be the rebel iconoclast whiz kid. Quit trying to antagonize the religious and instead USE religion to reach towards immortality. Grow up and be a REAL villain.

The american atheist tradition, which is completely aligned with cryonics, is an immature and shallow movement, an arrogant movement. I, as an atheist, and as a cryonicist, am appalled and saddened by how the atheist movement, and atheist cryonics, are not able to rise above petty antagonistic feelings and USE religion as it should be used.

Untold MILLIONS of dollars await us if we can reconcile cryonics with american protestantism. Those millions could transform cryonics into something that could save us all.

Very wonderful! 

[Leukippos]

...

You have typed very good points, too; we may surmount these problems by slowly introducing an altered doctrine.

(As you know, if a religion doesn't keep-up with the times, it becomes extinct.)

Edited by Leukippos, 22 March 2009 - 01:57 AM.

[cryofan]

I think that the very idea of immortalism is against the will of mainstream Christianity.

I disagree. I think the whole idea of every religion revolves around life after death. Survival of the self in some form after death. We all need to have some sort of crutch to help us when it comes to thinking about destruction of the self. Or at least that is the case for much of our lives. Most young people, especially males, don't need that crutch as much. Not till they get older, anyway.

If you honestly believe this, why would you want to maintain this existence beyond the means required to attain entrance to heaven?

You seem to think that humans are some sort of logical calculating machine when it comes to thinking about "big," abstract ideas, and that the things we say about these big ideas are actually an expression of something we came up with. Humans don't really think about life after death in logical, abstract ways. Same goes for religion. We only "feel." And the things we say aloud about these concepts are the things we think that we are expected to say about life after death, death itself. We say these things about life and death and immortality because these words are the words that we seem to be expected to say about these concepts.

In your sentence above, you seem to assume that human choices and actions and what they say and do when it comes to religion and death are somehow the product of a logical thought process, like some sort of computer program.

I guess I used to say the same sort of things you just said, many years ago, anyway. Now, I can hardly even imagine why, though. Just watch people. Read. And you see what I am talking about. See how people act in certain circumstances.

I know you don't understand what I am saying to you right now. But think about it in the years to come. I think you will come to understand.

[cryofan]

The Bible says that Elijah, Elisha, Peter, and Paul raised the dead, as well as Jesus Christ.

THe question is whether we ourselves should raise the dead?

In the bible, Jesus told his disciples to raise the dead.

from MATTHEW 10:8
"Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. "

further, Jesus told his disciples they were to teach others to do EVERYTHING He had commanded them -- even to the "end of the age."

FROM MATTHEW 28:18-20
18 Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Furthermore, Jesus said believers would also do the works that he did:

from JOHN 14:12
12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."


So, we ourselves are to act as Jesus commanded his disciples. And that means raise the dead. If you are a cryonicist, you are doing that part of what Jesus told you to do, and you will live forever by his side when the resurrection comes. A resurrection that we humans will carry out, acting in his name. Cryopreserving humans is a good start in making the resurrection happen!

[bran319]

You are good at taking messages out of context.

Jesus is speaking to the twelve in those versus.

Matthew 5-7: The Sermon on the Mount, in it Christ gives instructions on how to do God's will. He makes no such mention of any comman to these "disciples".

In fact he does make one statement that perhaps you yourself should be concerned with. That is, if you truly believe what you write and are not just trying to stir up trouble.

Matthew 5:15-23:

A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Now maybe God has spoken directly to you and you are relaying his message. If so, then you have God on your side and cannot fail. However, if you are misinterpreting scripture then you should beware for Jesus warns against false prophesying and the punishment is clear.

James, the brother of Jesus writes in chapter 3:1

1Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

[cryofan]

thass right, buddy, and iffen yew lissen to me, you gonna fry in hades fur ever.

BWAAHAHAHAHA!

[bran319]

No worries cryofan, your inability to properly interpret scripture makes you mostly harmless.

[cryofan]

[bran319]

Awww...cute widdle kitty cat.

[cryofan]

[octoberred]

I do not think that the bible is referring to raising the dead literally. The dead are defined as those who do not believe in Christ and so the bible wishes for you to help the "dead", people who do not believe in Christ, by teaching them the truth.

[cryofan]

I do not think that the bible is referring to raising the dead literally. The dead are defined as those who do not believe in Christ and so the bible wishes for you to help the "dead", people who do not believe in Christ, by teaching them the truth.

Oh, you do not "think" so, eh? On what basis, if I may be so bold to ask? Or maybe you are FEELING that?

Oh, but it matters not, my child. When I get you in that pew, and I stand at that podium, and I read the Word of God straight from the King James Bible, and I show you that your Lord Jesus wants you to raise the dead by being a cryonicist, when I put the fear of God into you, when I preach that old time religion, when those Shakespearean scriptures resonate within your soul, then, THEN you will FEEL the power of God, when you shudder, and struggle to catch your breath, when you are born again unto Christ, then you will come to Christ, and you will with sweet release let him take the weight of the fear of death off your shoulders. And you WILL wear a cryonics bracelet.

Edited by cryofan, 24 March 2009 - 03:09 PM.