CHAT ARCHIVE: * BJKlein Official Chat Starts Now:
<BJKlein> Australian writer of the science fiction trilogy: Terminator 2: The New John Chronicles, Russell Blackford joins ImmInst to discuss the future of cyborgs and the likelihood of a Terminator in our future.
<Russell> Okay. I am officially here then.
<BJKlein> More:
http://imminst.org/f...=ST&f=63&t=2876<Randolfe> "Eagle has landed"
<BJKlein> you ready to take questions? or feel free to take your time
<OmniDo> All rise, the honorable Russell presiding.
<BJKlein> no rush.. we're just happy to see ya
<Russell> Yup. I'm just glancing at some of the unofficial stuff from before I got in here.
<Russell>
<Russell> Who wants to start?
<BJKlein> I believe Dementropy has a q.
<OmniDo> Dementropy had a good q
<BJKlein> <Dementropy> I know many futurists must have given different timetables for full human cyborging... what's your timetable, Russell?
<Russell> Hard one's first, eh?
<John_McCluskey> BJ, I'd like to request an extension of tonight's chat to compensate for the late start.
<BJKlein> naw.. they get harder as we move along
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<BJKlein> John_McCluskey, i think this is a good idea
<BJKlein> Russell, is it ok if we end at 9:30 PM Eastern?
<Russell> Do you mean some sort of uploading into a kind of robotic substrate, or just internalising *a lot* of inorganic technology into our bodies?
<Dementropy> the latter
<Russell> I can stay here for an extra half hour easily.
<BJKlein> thanks
<Russell> If it's the latter, I think that there'll be lot of tech that goes into us in the next few decades. I can't be a lot more specfic than that.
<Russell> But I can't see us not taking that route.
<BJKlein> what got you into writing and thinking about tech?
<Russell> Depends on a lot of things of course, incl. whether full-on nanobotics turns out to be technologically achievable.
<Randolfe> Don't they have implants that enable paralyzed people (or monkeys) to turn something on by just thinking about it?
<OcsRazor> Full control of a robotic limb Randolfe
<OcsRazor> sorry for jumping in
<OmniDo> I would think those to be on the upper end of experimental, and not fully developed or tested with all variables accounted for. I could be wrong though.
<BJKlein> OcsRazor, feel free.
<Russell> Bruce's question first. I've been thinking about science and reading and writing science fiction since I was a kid.
<Randolfe> Bioethics and science fiction seem to be a strange and interesting mix. Are you unique in that respect?
<Utnapishtim> Russell: What is your take on life extension efforts in general. Are you reasonably confident that you or your children will have a lifespan radically longer than what is currently considered normal?
<Russell> (On the other question, that stuff does seem to be upper-end experimental. What I want to know is whether, for example, it will really possible to.....
<Russell> develop nanobots that can swim in our blood and do cell repair.)
<OcsRazor> btw if you want the full details on the motor cortex implant later just ask, I know the developers personally
<LazLo> Too bad Mike Treder or someone from CRN isn't here but I think that is coming over the next decade
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<Russell> I think that I am part of the last generation of mortals. I think that there may already be people alive who will live for a very long time, like 150 years or whatever.
<BJKlein> OcsRazor, link handy?
<Utnapishtim> How old are you russell?
<OcsRazor> I'll find it
<OmniDo> Russell: Have you considered cryonics?
<Russell> If they're not already alive, I think they're only a generation away. But I'm approaching 50, so I'm too old to benefit.
<Randolfe> What do you think of calorie restriction?
<LazLo> no we aren't Russell we are the experimental edge
<Russell> Yeah. I have thought of cryonics. I haven't taken it up and doubt that I will.
<LazLo> much of what need to be done wil be tried out on us and some of us will succeed
<LazLo> I am 50
<Russell> The reasons for that are fairly complicated.
<BJKlein> please tell..
<Russell> I like your optimism, LazLo. I hope you're right.
<Randolfe> I'm 66 in a few days. I intend to make it to 110 anyway.
<John_Ventureville> Russell: When do you envision ground based robots (not necessarily anywhere as advanced as a terminator) being mainstreamed into combat for actual killing missions (I realize we already have the airbased Predator drone)?
<OmniDo> I'll hop in the bath of Liquid Nitro long before I ever hit 65
<OmniDo> But thats just me.
<Russell> I'm not a great fan of calorie restriction. I know it is supposed to have a dramatic effect on experimental animals. I actually think it would reduce my quality of life too much. Living longer is nott he be all and end all for me.
<BJKlein> Russell: Do you perhaps believe that death is not oblivion?
<Randolfe> I feel the same way.
<Utnapishtim> Russell I would be really interested in your reasons for leaning against pursuing cryonic suspension
<Russell> Hang on, guys. I have to think about some of these.
<Randolfe> If cryonics only gives you a small chance of survival, taht beats no chance of survival.
<Russell> I do think that death is oblivion, actually.
<BJKlein> cool
<John_Ventureville> have you taught this to your children?
<OcsRazor> btw the co home page for the motor cortex implant is
http://www.cyberkineticsinc.com/<gabriel> If death is oblivion, then why do people care so much about dying?
<BJKlein> Russell, don't feel you have to answer all questions.... perhaps we can let Russell catchup if he wishes
<Randolfe> Is oblivion really "cool" or painful or something else?
<John_Ventureville> Gabriel, it's the current status quo & as you age you usually grow to accept it
<Russell> Re the ground based robots, I think we are a long way from anything even vaguely like Terminator. Drone combat vehicles or whatever would be quite doable if tactically useful.
<gabriel> John_McCluskey: I believe that, as biological creatures, death is simple the ending of our physical life cycle. If someone does happen after, It will simple be a new experience. If not, then, well, I won't exist, so I wouldn't really have a problem with it.
<John_Ventureville> Russell, I imagine small shoe-boxed sized robots which are fairly inexpensive and carry a mine or shoot a pistol. Of course all they have to really do is relay the enemies position so aircraft or artillery can bombard them with great accuracy.
<Russell> Okay. I don't have strong views one way or another about cryonic suspension. OTOH, I want to live as long as I can...but what interests me is living my current life with my current friends, loved ones, etc. The things that attach us (or me at least) to life are not simply the wish to survive.
<gabriel> John_Ventureville: *
<John_Ventureville> ?
<gabriel> I used the wrong name initially
<John_Ventureville> ok
<Russell> Oblivion is simply the lack of any experience at all.
<Russell> Have I caught up now?
<OcsRazor> Russel -> How much reading of the Science and Engineering literature do you do before sitting down to write?
<BJKlein> right.. this is agreed.. looks good Russell
<John_Ventureville> Russell, I just want to say your views on cryonics and physical immortality seem to be pretty representative of the majority of science fiction authors out there.
<Randolfe> Russell, is your interest in bioethics and science fiction unique to you? Or are their others?
*LazLo* BJ as this is a popular guy how about you medicate and call people to list their questins for you in a second window and then you order their presentatino by copy pasting them into the main chat?
<Russell> Hard one, OcsRazor. I've already read a lot of popular science material on cloning etc for my current book.
<hkhenson> russell, have you considered (if you had the resources) signing up your entire family?
<John_Ventureville> Cryonics proponents initially thought science fiction authors were a great demographic to be mined but that proved to be very untrue.
<Russell> But I have to do research for details about how military hardware works etc.
<hkhenson> btw, I am 61. my dad lived to 92 so I might make it without spending time in LN2
<John_Ventureville> Charles Platt and Damien Broderick are real exceptions to the rule on this.
<BJKlein> Russell, have you met with Greg Bear, Damien Broderick, Joanna Nova or other immortalist friendlies in Australia?
<John_Ventureville> And they tried with little success to get other writers interested.
<Russell> Well, Damien hasn't signed up for cryonics either.
<John_Ventureville> wow
<John_Ventureville> that's right
<OmniDo> As has been said many times, "Lead by example."
<OcsRazor> Russel -> I asked about the literature because these days I'm finding that scifi is often falling behind what will actually be possible in the very near future
<John_Ventureville> he says he is just too far away
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<hkhenson> platt is signed up. benford too.
<John_Ventureville> otherwise he probably would
<Russell> Damien is a good pal of mine. I've met Greg Bear.
<Russell> I don't know the name Joanna Nova.
<John_Ventureville> why does Australia produce such good science fiction writers??
<John_Ventureville> *and supermodels!*
<hkhenson> heh nothing else to do john.
<Russell> I hope to make it well into my 90s by the way. Longevity runs in my family, and I take care of myself.
<Russell> I'm glad you like our sf writers and our models.
<Randolfe> Russell, I liked your comparison to immortality and cloning (quoting Shakespeare) in one of your articles.
<John_Ventureville> lol
<Utnapishtim> so you don't expect significant extension of the human lifespan int he next 40 years
<OmniDo> Russell: So you have no plans for any type of cryonic suspension, on the basis of the emotional discomfort it would bring in hindsight, due to you being alone?
<hkhenson> well, if the major breakthroughs are in the next 20-30 years you stand a good chance to make it without cryonics.
<Utnapishtim> or advances in cryonics to the point where the procedure is at least demonstrably effective
<John_Ventureville> don't forget the FDA interfering
<hkhenson> thought experiment. every one of the people die before the breakthrough.
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<BJKlein> Russell, let me know if you wish for things to slow down.. we can creat a seperate question chat room
<Randolfe> If they just succeed in reviving one mouse, there will be a huge change in popular opinion.
<OmniDo> John_Ventureville: And every other religious or anti-immortal organization that has even the slighest foothold on society.
<Russell> I'm a bit pessimistic about significant extension for already-middle-aged humans in the next 40 years, alas. Those who are young now or not yet born....that's another story.
<John_Ventureville> I agree
<hkhenson> you are offered a pill of cell repair machines. Do you take it?
<Guest> young as in their 20s?
<gabriel> I have a question. If, in the next few years, there are major developments in lifespan expansion techniques, and at least theoretically you could live eternally (or at least for a span exponential to your current expected span), would you do it?
<OmniDo> Youth does not guarantee survival, it only increases the odds.
<hkhenson> sorry every one of the people you know die . .
<John_Ventureville> I look at babies being held in a parent's arms and think "you lucky little bastard!"
<Russell> I'm thinking of even younger than that, but I'd love to be in my 20s not in my late 40s and have the extra years to see what happens.
<John_Ventureville> because they will probably make it
<BJKlein> Joanna Nova = Australian scientist and tv personality =
http://joannenova.co...oanne/biog.html <OcsRazor> I disagree in the 20-40 range, significant extension will be possible in the short time frame subject to social and financial conditions
<Randolfe> If they figured out how to stop aging, period, everyone alive and healthy would not have to worry.
<OmniDo> I think its important to remind everyone here that this is all speculative, based upon our assumptions that our governments will continue to propagate in the fashion that they have thus far, and that no new developments will force any substantial change. IN light of the developing technology, this will most likely not be the case.
<John_Ventureville> if immortality is only an option for the wealthy things could get ugly
<Dementropy> Russell... Donald Norman's new book centers around the idea that machines of the future will need emotion in order to be truly efficient... your comment on this?
<Russell> If someone offered me the cell repair pill or immortality now, yeah I'd take it for sure.
<hkhenson> even if all your friends had died?
<Randolfe> Immortality will probably be available to the weathy first, like everything else.
<hkhenson> :-)
<Guest> Would it be possible to repair the body of a 90 year old?
<Rhadamanthus> would anti-aging therapies simply slow aging or would all therapies neccesserily reverse it?
<hkhenson> certainly guest
<Russell> Dementropy, I'd like to see the argument. It's still not agreed why *we* need emotions....or even why we needed to evolve sex.
<gabriel> Guest: depends on your definition of repair
<OmniDo> Randolfe: Indeed. Now what says the rich immortals, once they have it, are going to benevolently surrender their advantage on the basis of "helping the community" which in function, doesnt require them to do so?
<OcsRazor> There is a very strong argument for emotions as being a statistical filter for responding quickly in the real world environment
<Randolfe> Don't emotions like "happiness" make life worth living?
<OmniDo> You have about as much luck as asking Bill Gates for a million dollars. I doubt he would be so generous.
<LazLo> sexuality predates humans by billions of years and is about maximizing genetic redistribution of potentially advantageous mutation for environmental adaptation
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<Russell> Okay. I'll take the last comment. I agree that emotions are what make life worth living.
<Randolfe> There is no reason for the wealthy to hoarde immortality. Eventually it will be morpe egalitarianly distributed
<Russell> I agree with the last comment, but it could get ugly in the short term.
<Guest> undo DNA mutations and the repair the 90 yr old body on a cellular level to a functionality similar to a 20 yr old body?
<Russell> Btw, Bill Gates is a bad example. He gives away a lot of money.
<OcsRazor> isn't it always ugly? The wealthy always fund the cutting edge technologies, but they eventually filter down
<OcsRazor> without the wealthy adventurers nothing would get done
<Randolfe> You don't have to repair anything in a 90 year old who is healthy. It would be nice but not necessary immediately.
<OmniDo> Russell: Oh does he? Perhaps the ImmInst should ask him for a gracious donation then? Im sure 10 million wouldnt hurt his pocketbooks much, and it is in the interest of the betterment of humanity. Im sure he'll agree to it without a hitch.
<Russell> Basically I agree with that. Usually, at least they do filter down and they usually become many, many times cheaper.
<Dementropy> russell: Norman says that "...machines should have emotions for the same reason that people do: to keep them safe, make them curious and help them to learn"
<Russell> Okay.
<Russell> Well, pain is one of the things that keeps us safe.
<Dementropy> emotions such as fear, pride, and frustration
<OcsRazor> Dem that is a simplification of the current line of thinking in Cognitiv science right now
<Russell> But it's mysterious why we need the subjective feeling of pain.
<OcsRazor> we need emotions to react quickly to large amounts of sensory input
<Randolfe> I find it hard to think of machines having emotions. For one thing, they would not experience pain.
<OmniDo> To differentiate the distinction of pleasure, or non-pain, or so one would think.
<Russell> You'd have to design a machine that *could* feel pleasure and pain.
<gabriel> Randolfe: To experience emotion, you must experience pain
<OcsRazor> but they would need strong signals to react immediately to real world threats
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<Russell> I've given a lot of thought to whether that would be a good idea.
<Russell> I'm inclined to think that it would not be.
<Dementropy> why's that?
<gabriel> If it was all "positive" emotions, than how would you know? Without contrast, we have nothing.
<Randolfe> I do not conside "pain" to be an emotion. Fear, perhaps, angst, etc.
<Russell> It's a matter of trying to imagine what it would be like if we brought into the world a new bunch of mentalities that could experience pain in particular.
<gabriel> Pain, like every other emotion, is a chemical (im)balance in the brain.
<Randolfe> The great strength of the machines we have today is that they don't feel fear or pain and will fly to their own destruction on command.
<John_McCluskey> I suspect that future AI machines will have states (far more and more complex) that will be roughly mappable to human emotions. But the comparison will be crude.
<Russell> If we did it, we'd want to be very sure that they could be accepted as part of our society....not be our slaves. It's a lot better if they don't feel fear or pain as Randolfe says.
<Randolfe> iMAGINE AN ALTRUISTIC MACHINE!
<gabriel> The true question, is if emotion is key to intellegents.
<Randolfe> Cap lock on by mistake
<gabriel> and if it is, than intellegent machines would need emotions.
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<Russell> If we do create machines that feel pain, we will have to work very hard to integrate them into our own society. I think we would have that responsibility.
<Guest> What if their sense of altruism is not very beneficial in our perspective?
<OcsRazor> Gabriel, you need some sort of system for generalizing large amounts of sensory data...
<OcsRazor> AIs would need that just as much as humans, but would prob have much more nuanced responses
<gabriel> OcsRazor: What is your definition of intelligents?
<Randolfe> Being free of emotional consideration might make AIs much more effecient like psychopaths.
<Russell> Define altruism in this context? Just other-regarding behaviour? Machines are altruistic now. Your washing machine will work for you all day long. If you mean that they have interests of their own...ie they feel pleasure, pain, fear etc, their might be some ethical quandaries about creating a machine like that, while also making it sacrifice its interests.
<Rhadamanthus> An altruistic machine would be a disaster
<outlawpoet> er, Randolfe, I don't think it's clear that psychopaths are efficient.
<OcsRazor> there are many definitions of intelligence gabriel, but in general it is the ability to react in a way that moves a system towrads a goal state
<Randolfe> Psychopaths can even fool lie detectors, are not held back by moral considerations, do as they desire.
<outlawpoet> OcsRazor, that includes dumb systems like thermostats.
<OcsRazor> definitely outlaw
<OcsRazor> they are not dumb, that is the base level of intelligence
<outlawpoet> Randolfe, Psychopaths fool polygraphs in some instances because they dont' have negative reactions to social distortions like lying.
<OcsRazor> very similar to organic intelligence in bacteria
<John_McCluskey> Heh... speaking of coincidences... "Blade Runner" just came on the Space channel... Replicants, machines with all the features of "real" humans. A classic film.
<Russell> Psychopaths are people whose neural programming, if you like, takes them out of the whole scheme of mutual advantage that we have by being sensitive to each other's interests.
<outlawpoet> and in terms of 'doing as they please', pyschopaths are often unable to find clear goals, or be happy in any context.
<outlawpoet> sociopathy is generally very unhappy disorder, or class of disorders.
<Russell> Blade Runner! Great movie!
<Randolfe> Exactly, once psychopaths are "free of social constgraints" they have a behavioral advantage from their own selfish perspective.
<OmniDo> and Psyhopaths are amongst the most brilliant people in th world in some cases.
<OmniDo> One has to wonder why that is..
<Randolfe> Intelligence free of moral constraints knows no limits.
<outlawpoet> OmniDo, I'm not sure where that's coming from... It's true that some psychopaths are of high intelligence, but it's not clear that there is any corellation or relationship.
<OmniDo> Well put.
<gabriel> OcsRazor: in my somewhat humble (yet not very well informed) opinion, I think that to be intelligent, it must also have the ability to react to the same situation differently. As intelligent creatures, we have the ability to be in the exact same situations, yet make different decisions. Those decisions are partly based on emotion. Thus, an AI would need emotion to be truly intelligent (according to my little definition)
*Dementropy* do you make transcripts available
<OcsRazor> current theory suggests that people with less inhibition have radically different neural architecture allowing them to come up with novel solutions to problems Omni
<OmniDo> outlawpoet: Speaking only from personal reference, my grandfather was a criminal psychologist for 30 years. He told me and all of our family that psychopaths were the most interesting of all people he ever met, because they demonstrated intelligence and brilliance in nearly all cases.
<Russell> But what if we were all psychopaths? Society would not work. The thing about the degree of limited altruism, natural cooperativeness etc that we have, is that these are of mutual advantage in a situation where they are the most common behavioural dispositions. Psychopaths could never create a society.
<Randolfe> OmniDo, that is what makes psychopaths interesting.
<outlawpoet> Randolfe, sociopathic humans are still humans. They have emotional constraints. There are many examples of sociopaths that are crippled by bizarre or unusual emotional stimuli. A classic example is Gacy, showing no remorse at all his killings, and crying for months when informed in prison his cat had died.
<OmniDo> OcsRazor: INdeed. Thats my point. Now if only we had psychopaths who were constructive to the general society.
<Randolfe> Russell, aren't some forms of life "psychopathic" from our perspective?
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<John_Ventureville> so is a psychopath "the mutant" among us?
<OcsRazor> Agreed Russel and Omni, it is because they are at the edge of a societies Gaussian that they are valuable, but we wouldn't want all of the indivduals to be psychopathic
<Dementropy> no... is the psychopath "the terminator" among us?
<Randolfe> Dare not suggest the psychopath might be the "superior" among us!
<OmniDo> it woudlnt surprise me at all
<outlawpoet> Gabriel, it depends on what you mean by emotions. Some emotions are foundational to intelligent biological systems, see 'Affective Computing'
<gabriel> outlawpoet: Where can I find it?
<John_Ventureville> the wolf among the sheep?
<Russell> I think that many or most forms of life are psychopathic from our perspective...however admirable in other ways.
<John_Ventureville> a human predator on the altruism food chain?
<Randolfe> Exactly. Only humans have moral perspectives and perhaps a few other mammals
<outlawpoet> er, you may be able to find yourself a copy on kazaa, or perhaps textz. It's minorly expensive in a bookstore.
<outlawpoet> I'm pretty sure it's still in print.
<OcsRazor> I disagree strongly Russel on other forms of life being psychopathic, only humans have the requisite complexity to operate in ways that are inconsistent
<OcsRazor> with moving towards the benefit of the organism
<John_Ventureville> or are they "ethically retarded?"
<Randolfe> A psychopath is the most coldly rational of all.
<John_McCluskey> I would point out that Whales seem to commit suicide on a regular basis.
<Russell> Yes, and you need some kind of moral perspective to have a workable society. You don't need an enormous amount of moral regulation, but some at least some cooperativeness.
<John_Ventureville> though cognitively bright?
<outlawpoet> psychopaths don't tend towards rationality any more than other people.
<outlawpoet> they just lack some moderating tendencies towards socially viable behavior.
<OcsRazor> John that is likely a sensory malfunction on the part of the whales, not an emotional response
<John_Ventureville> I can imagine A.I.'s being psychopathic from our perspective
<outlawpoet> if psychopaths were coldy rational, they wouldn't be in prison.
<Randolfe> Outlawpoet, psychopaths are the most rational of all beings.
<OcsRazor> psychopaths generally have an inability to collectively organize all their goals
<John_Ventureville> Russell, as you can notice, we have a habit here of veering off on tagents!
<Russell> I think the question was "psychopathic from our perspective". Many other animals do have some inhibitions about how far they go in seeking their ends, of course. E.g. wolves don't kill each other.
<Russell> It's okay.
<Randolfe> John, what if a machine was attracted to human blood the way a magnet was to iron?
<John_Ventureville> vampire robots!
<OmniDo> OcsRazor: Id argue thats due to their substantial indifferent upbringings. I still advocate a society where members congregate by choice, not by necessity.
<Russell> I've been thinking a lot about this issue of what you need to build a society.
<Russell> And where non-human or post-human beings might fit in.
<John_Ventureville> I got a little anxious when a robot was built which fueled itself with snails it captured
<Randolfe> If we conserve the best human genotypes through human cloning, we will have abetter society.
<John_Ventureville> I don't want to end up in a robot's stomach (fuel cell acids)!
<OmniDo> Randolfe: That quicky becomes Eugenics, and many are predisposed against the idea.
<Randolfe> "
<OmniDo> Not myself personally.
<OcsRazor> omni I meant the total collective of an indivduals goals, not of a collective of individuals
<outlawpoet> Randolfe, it's unclear what the best genotypes are. Sadly, geniuses dont' tend to run in families.
<outlawpoet> it would be easier if they did.
<Randolfe> Eugenics" is a code word for those unwilling to think and discuss.
<Russell> It's not a use of cloning that I find attractive.
<OcsRazor> Russel-> what is your perspective on the legality of allowing individuals to self modify using implants and the like?
<Russell> Hmmmm, "eugenics" is a good word to use to end rational debate, that is true. It has too many bad connotations, especially of Nazism.
<Randolfe> Russell, why not? Wouldn't it be nice to have a dozen later-born twins of Einstein running around. One of them might contribute great things to our knowledge..even if many were just bright playboys.
<OmniDo> outlawpoet: Suppose that "Genius" were discovered not to be a function of advanced genetics, but more of a psychological/social equation. If that were the case, then geniuses are all born the same, they just develop in accordance with some set of circumstances that appear ambiguous to psychologists and sociologists.
<Russell> I'm for morphological freedom to take OcsRazor's question.
<John_Ventureville> Einstein clones growing up to be playboys?
<OmniDo> 14H15eh
<John_Ventureville> I must not be familiar with Einstein!
<Randolfe> Russell, I like some of what you said in your essays. Eugenics is the classic case of state poer being put behind flawed ideas of genetics. It was the state power that was corrisive and evil.
<OmniDo> Woudlnt surprise me in the least.
<Russell> I see cloning as essentially an addition to our biomedical amory for infertility....like IVF.
<John_Ventureville> they can be used to collectively replace Hugh Hefner
<OcsRazor> This is a loaded question coming from me, but what do you think of the likelihood of 'better than original parts' in the next 20 years
<outlawpoet> There is some evidence for identical twins scoring differently on standardized testing when raised seperately.
<outlawpoet> the differential is not large.
<OmniDo> Randolfe: Thats only beacuse the state power was corrupt. A non-corrupt state power wouldnt be so "Evil"
<Russell> I don't trust the state all that much.
<outlawpoet> omnido, you're describing a contradiction in terms.
<hkhenson> me either
<outlawpoet> what would a non-corrupt state power look like?
<Russell> I'd rather leave these choices to individuals.
<hkhenson> in fact, that's why the speed of light seems to be a good idea
<Randolfe> Russell, you are sounding like your conservative bioethical co-harts. Isn';t cloning a basic reproductive right?
<hkhenson> because you can leave the state behind.
<OmniDo> outlawpoet: With relation to existing powers, yes. Again, thats my point. Russell was referring to what it took to build a society. Were you referring to an "ideal" society Russell?
<hkhenson> russell, are you up on the concept of the far edge party? if so, would you like to go?
<Russell> I was talking about any society when I said you can't have a society of psychopaths.
<Randolfe> All power is inherently potentially evil. State power is the most potentially evil power of all. It has no human conscience.
<Russell> Is this the party at the end of time thing?
<OmniDo> Russell: Hmm... By the clinical definition of the word, yes. YOu might be correct.
<hkhenson> no, just on the far side of the galaxy.
<OmniDo> By the functionality of the "psyhopaths" in question. I think there could exist such a soceity.
<Russell> Either way, count me in.
<OcsRazor> Randolfe that is one of the strongest arguments for developing AI
<hkhenson> try far edge party in google
<outlawpoet> they wouldn't last very long, certainly. Psychopaths don't accomplish much.
<Russell> But it's got to be in the far future if it's on the other side of the galaxy. So we have to be, um, extremely long lived.
<OmniDo> outlawpoet: Actually, they accomplish great things. It just so happens these things are counter-productive to the societies in which they exist, hence why we lock them up or execute them.
<OcsRazor> alone they don't outlaw
<Randolfe> Russell, how can you argue that I don't have the right to see my genotype live on into another lifetime? How can you think you can ethically tell me I must die "completely"?
<outlawpoet> what great things? omnido?
<OcsRazor> but if they are supprted where they are not a danger to society they often do interesting things
<outlawpoet> I've never heard of a psychopath making it much past thirty or so without doing something stupid enough to die or get imprisoned.
<Russell> Randolfe, is this question about cloning?
<OcsRazor> many great scientists have been borderline sociopathic
<outlawpoet> Much less a psychopath doing anything interesting.
<Randolfe> Russell, yes it is. I have devoted my life to seeing my later-born twin receive the gift of life. I have a right to see my genotype live on into other lifetimes.
<OmniDo> outlawpoet: One of the most infamous quotes of a large group of psychopaths: "If you can give me something to do that is as much fun as being a thief, or killing some victim, or bombing a building, and provide it the same degree of thrill as attempting to escape being caught in this society, if you can do that and have it be legal, then sure. I'll stop my criminal behavior."
<Russell> I am not opposed to safe reproductive cloning. I don't think it should be banned. Nor, however, would I want it to be controlled by the state.
<outlawpoet> ocsrazor, it's unclear what you mean by borderline sociopathic.
<Russell> Does that clarify my position?
<OmniDo> Basically a large majority of them are bored and simply dont care.
<John_Ventureville> I bet there are some high achiever/or at least competant psychopaths out there who are cops, judges, business leaders, politicians, military officers, etc.
<Randolfe> Russell, yes it does. You pass the test!! That is RARE!
<OcsRazor> outlaw: viciously self centered and uncaring for the needs of others
<Russell> I didn't realise it was a test!
<outlawpoet> that's not exactly the same as sociopathy, ocsrazor.
<OmniDo> John_Ventureville: The time old phrase of: What goes around, comes around. Is not necesarily true. There are no doubt criminals who never get caught, who excercise their behavior throughout their lifetimes and get away with it. We simply have not caught them, or they are too intelligent for us to catch.
<outlawpoet> sociopaths are antipathetic.
<Randolfe> Ethical questions are always a "test".
<outlawpoet> John, I haven't seen any evidence of that.
<John_Ventureville> I have a friend who used to be a cop and he told me "generally only the dumb crooks get caught."
<BJKlein> 5min till end of official chat.. feel free to stay longer
<OmniDo> John_Ventureville Exactly.
<Utnapishtim> Al Capone died a free man and wealthy retiree in florida right?
<Russell> Okay, I'll stay for 10 minutes or so. Okay?
<OcsRazor> the definition I gave above is the textbook definition of psychopathy outlaw
<BJKlein> sounds great, thanks!
<Utnapishtim> I know he served time for tax ecasion
<Utnapishtim> evasion
<Randolfe> If anyone is interested, there is a program on Book-TV, C-Span 2 at 10:20 called "Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers"
<John_Ventureville> interesting
<BJKlein> Eastern time? Randolfe?
<John_Ventureville> Russell, what is your next book project?
<Randolfe> Eastern Time. NYC Time. That's the only time (ha)
<BJKlein> heh.. thanks
<John_Ventureville> And what is your approach to writing and fighting writer's block?
<John_Ventureville> *frustrated writer asking questions*
<Russell> I'm currently working on a book with the working title "Kong Reborn". It is about cloning but not human cloning...as the title might help you to guess.
<Russell> It's a King Kong sequel.
<John_Ventureville> wow!
<John_Ventureville> do you have official permission from the Kong estate?
<Utnapishtim> sequel to the original move with fay wray?
<Randolfe> Hope you'll clone Fay Raye too!
<John_Ventureville> ; )
<Russell> lol
<Russell> My publisher has the rights to do this.
<OcsRazor> Russell if you ever need any advice on where to look in the scientific literature for a particular topic, please feel free to ask
<Russell> So it's all legal and stuff.
<Russell> Thanks.
<John_Ventureville> cool
<Utnapishtim> I'd love to see someone write sequels to Burroughs Tarzan books
<John_Ventureville> What are your thoughts about the future Peter Jackson King Kong film?
<Randolfe> I can answer any question (virtually) that you have regarding cloning.
<BJKlein> OcsRazor = ImmInst Advisor = Peter Passaro
http://www.imminst.o.../leadership.php<John_Ventureville> I love the idea he will set it in the thirties and keep it close to the original.
<Russell> Okay. The trouble is you always have to simplify anyway, and sometimes even disort a bit in doing so. But I appreciate the offers.
<Utnapishtim> but it has to be an alternate puple 1930s in which dinosaurs roam the earth in hidden valleys
<Russell> I've read Jackson's script.
<Russell> It does look promising.
* BJKlein Official Chat Ends
<John_Ventureville> Russell, have you ever tried your hand at screenwriting?
<OmniDo> Russell: What kind of emerging technologies do you see emerging first?
<John_McCluskey> Do a twist.. make Kong the tortured, sensitive hero, abused by the psychopathic blond bimbo.
<Randolfe> Good chat tonight.
<Russell> I haven't. It is something I'd like to try, but it involves special skills of its own.
<John_Ventureville> *who heads a huge multinational corporation!*
<Utnapishtim> John: Too modenr for my tastes
<Utnapishtim> modern
<John_Ventureville> lol
<John_Ventureville> oh, well
<Randolfe> Have a Cyborg driving a Modet A Ford.
<Captain_Integral> .back
* Captain_Integral is back (gone 05:05:29)
<Russell> Still, I've learnt a bit about how it is done.
<John_Ventureville> Russell, please tell me the truth on this... was the film T3 a big disappointment compared to the previous two?
<Russell> I see this book as a bit of a response to Jurassic Park, with its anti-cloning line.
<John_Ventureville> I thought it paled in comparison to Cameron's efforts
<Russell> It was not a BIG disappointment, but I didn't think it was up to the first two movies.
<John_Ventureville> ok
<John_Ventureville> I agree with you
<Russell> And a whole of stuff was changed retrospectively.
<Utnapishtim> One of my beefs with hollywood is that when it ressurects classic old genre it feels the need to inject either A)emotional complexity or B) tongue in cheek campness regardless of whether these things are any kind of improvement
<John_Ventureville> yep
<Russell> E.g. John cannot possibly be that old.
<John_McCluskey> In my personal opinion, T3 actually seemed the most realistic of the trilogy. The background of T1 and T2 made T3 a lot more believable.
<John_Ventureville> right
<OcsRazor> Russell - the novel that has been in the back of my mind for many years is the positive vision of AI
<John_Ventureville> he seemed too wimpy to head a rebellion against the machines
<OcsRazor> that is counter to the futures of the terminator and the matrix
<John_Ventureville> and Arnold seemed tired in his role
<Utnapishtim> Was your terminator novel written before or after the latest movie and do they fit together continuity wise
<John_Ventureville> what I would LOVE to see is a decently budgeted Terminator tv series on Fox or cable.
<Russell> There are not many positive visions of AI. A couple of nice little books are Virtual Girl by Amy Thomson.
<Russell> And some of Melissa Scott's work.
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<Russell> I'm thinking of Dreaming Metal.
<OcsRazor> thanks for the pointers
<hkhenson> russell, do you get any pressure from scientology to slant some subjects?
<John_Ventureville> they could have a different type of terminators every so often
<hkhenson> in stories that is
<John_Ventureville> terminator hawks, dogs, cats, ferrets, etc.
<hkhenson> gerbils . . . .
<John_Ventureville> dust mites!
<Russell> My books are not in continuity with T3 but they are with T1 and T2. As I said, T3 is not really in continuity with T1 and T2 when you look at the detail.
<John_Ventureville> do you feel a T4 film could or even should be done?
<Russell> I've never had anything to do with scientology, or the scientologists with me.
<John_Ventureville> would you be willing to take a stab at writing a screenplay?
<hkhenson> on spec or for money john?
<Russell> If someone asked me to, I'd have a stab, though I'd probably need help. Even Bill Gibson had trouble with his Alien 3 script. It really is a special skill.
<John_Ventureville> I didn't care for that film
<John_Ventureville> but hopefully Alien vrs. Predator will deliver the goods
<Utnapishtim> I seem to remember a comic book of that name coming out years ago
<Russell> I never do anything purely on spec if I can help it. Well, they didn't use Gibson's script. His version was rejected.
<John_Ventureville> damn
<John_Ventureville> what was his plot?
<John_Ventureville> a Dark Horse comic
<John_Ventureville> very well done
<OcsRazor> how long have you been writing novels Russell, and how did you break into writing?
<John_Ventureville> do you make a living at it?
<Russell> Not sure that I can remember if I ever knew. But it was very demanding in effects etc, so I hear.
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<John_Ventureville> he should try to sell it to a Japanese anime company if the legalities could be worked out
<John_Ventureville> *just a crazy idea*
<Utnapishtim> Is it hard to make the jump from licensed work to original fiction from a marketing standpoint
<John_Ventureville> like Keven J. Anderson?
<John_Ventureville> or did he do it in reverse?
<Russell> On how I got into writing. Well, to the extent that I am a success at it, it is a case of plugging away for many years. A small sale here and there. Trying to build up some kind of reputation and the skills. I don't think there is any simple way to get into writing.
<Utnapishtim> he has written star wars books and ghost written dune sequels for Frank Herberts son right?
<OcsRazor> I've heard that many times Russell
<John_Ventureville> so you had the classic hard road experience
<John_Ventureville> like King and so many others
<John_Ventureville> Utnap, yes
<OcsRazor> curious about writing because I have two nonfiction pop sci books on bioengineering I'm working on that I will hopefully finish about the same time as my PhD
<John_Ventureville> Russell, what do you say to those who say writing licensed novels is writing for a second rate wing of science fiction which only manages to generally water down the quality & respect for the genre
<John_Ventureville> ?
<Russell> It seems like a grandiose comparison, since I'm a long way down the food chain from King, but yes. It's a long road. I've done a lot of other things to in that time, which is really about the last 20 years since my first short story was published. About 21 years in fact.
<OmniDo> Peter: I have a quick question. How long did it take you to get from the beginning of your college studies, to where you are now?
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<Utnapishtim> I am curious.. Has the tremendous growth of novel series basebd on popular movies and TV shows like Star Trek and Star Wars reduced the market for original Sci-Fi significantly or is it simply an entirely different audience?
<OcsRazor> 4 yrs undergrad 2.5 MS I worked in industry for over 5
<OcsRazor> now it willbe 4-5 more on the PhD
<Russell> On the licensed novels thing. The problem is that a lot really are not very good.
<BJKlein> Peter, by the way, let me know if you'd be interested in leading up a chat somtime in Feb.
<OcsRazor> sure anytime but valentines day weekend would be good
<OcsRazor> Sunday nights are usually clear now
<BJKlein> wonderful... i'll email ya some ideas
<Russell> I like to think that mine are fairly ambitious books in their own right, but that's not always the case. Nor is it always possible with tight deadlines for marketing purposes etc.
<John_Ventureville> ok
<OmniDo> Peter: So approximately 7 years education, with 5 in the field?
<OcsRazor> yep Omni
<OcsRazor> Im 1.5 in on the PhD now
<Utnapishtim> Russell: If you wanted to 'go it on your own' and develop concepts and characters from scratch do you think it would be a hard sell to publishers despite your success in the licensed fiction field?
<OcsRazor> and did a complete field switch for the PhD
<Russell> On audiences. I think that just as much "original" science fiction is being written and published as was ever the case. The media-related material is additional to that.
<John_Ventureville> I admit to being tempted by your Terminator novel and some of the new Trek: Klingon books
<Russell> Remember, until the 1960s or so, you could read everything published in the field.
<John_Ventureville> *even if Klingons are what Kathryn Rusch calls "popcorn aliens."
<OmniDo> I was curious about the amout of prescribed time, versus the amount of required time for those accomplishments.
<Russell> Some of the New Jedi Order books may be worth a look, too, but I haven't actually read them.
<OcsRazor> Russell I'm very curious about the development of neuroethics as a subfield of bioethics, any good books you may have come across there
<OcsRazor> Omni - I wandered around alot in both my BS and MS, curious about everything, so I took lots of courses
<OcsRazor> could have been moe ficused
<OcsRazor> focused
<ravi> BJ: i was wondering.....if u knw which dem. cand. had the most liberal views on stem cell research?
<John_Ventureville> in terms of your time management, how many hours a week do you generally devote to actual writing, research and then to reading?
<BJKlein> hmm.. not sure ravi..
<Russell> No, I think I'm a bit stumped re "Neuroethics". There are books devoted to "cyberethics".
<BJKlein> i'm not very politically savy
<John_Ventureville> Ocs, hard trying to be a polymath?
<John_Ventureville> lol
<OcsRazor> Omni - now I'm learning a completely new field, so is taking me while
<OmniDo> OcsRazor: Do you think it might have been possible for you to shorten that time requrirement? Or was it arbitrairy and non-negotioable by your edcuational commitee?
<Russell> *getting lost*
* OmniDo loathes modern edcuational systems
<OcsRazor> what field are we talking about Omni
<OmniDo> OcsRazor: Yours.
<John_Ventureville> Russell, getting us to focus and stay on topic is like trying to herd cats!
<OcsRazor> bilogical research projects tend to take a while to complete
<Russell> Yeah. Fair enough.
<OmniDo> Lets presuppose that you knew then what you wanted to do now. Could you have reduced that time, or was it a prescribed time limit?
<OcsRazor> hence the time on the PhD and the MS
<Russell> Might be time for me to sign off and so some other things.
<Russell> er, "do" some other things.
<OmniDo> Russell: Its been a pleasure having your input. 1,8 : )
<John_Ventureville> we probably wore you out!
<John_Ventureville> : )
<BJKlein> Wonderful Chat Russell.. Thank You.. a log will be posted accessable via ImmInst's homepage in a few minutes. (feel free to return anytime!)
<Russell> Thanks for having me.
<OcsRazor> Thank you Russell
