19 replies to this topic

[JLL]

Lately, I've noticed that my wounds are healing more slowly than before. It just seems to take weeks for even small wounds to heal completely. I'm wondering whether it might be due to taking several things that lower inflammation, or whether these two are not really related.

My immune system, on the other hand, seems to be working better than usual. I've avoided a few colds, even though I usually pretty much catch every cold imaginable. I also feel very good in general.

[ajnast4r]

doctor question, not a forum question.

[niner]

I've noticed slow wound healing on the front of my calves, which I think is an area that is generally not very well perfused, but not anywhere else. Could it be a supp? Dunno. you could always run the experiment, at rather significant hassle. The fastest way would probably be a binary search. (Washout, then do a control wound. Add in half of your supps, do another wound. If significantly long healing time, subtract half, else add half of remaining supps. Etc...) You might not be into slicing yourself up in the interest of science. It wouldn't hurt to get a medical opinion, as mentioned above.

[krillin]

Drop all your flavonoid and glucosamine supplements and see what happens. They inhibit MMPs which are needed for tissue remodeling. Also drop MSM, because if it's like DMSO it'll increase the cortisol/cortisone ratio and impair healing.

Once you're healed you can get back on them to prevent long-term inflammatory damage. I'm not sure about chronic MSM use anymore, though. It was great for getting rid of some refractory tendinitis, but I kept on taking it for several years and it didn't prevent the tendinitis from coming back. (It's probably tendinosis (non-inflamed) now.)

[kismet]

Wound healing is still a black art as far as I know. We don't really know what sort of inflammation (and growth factor response) is necessary for a. fast wound healing and/or b. scarless healing (I think it's mostly a trade-off; but if you take the wrong supplements you definitely could screw up both). Other noteworthy MMP inhibitors are doxycycline and minocycline; I don't know in how far the inhibited MMPs play a role in wound healing, though.

Interestingly and paradoxically old skin heals with less scarring!

[Matt]

There has other things like EGCG that block MMP's, but also result in faster wound healing and less scarring... so its not inhibiton of MMP enzymes that are necessarily making wounds not heal properly.

Low Zinc can sometimes lead to poor wound healing.

[JLL]

Thanks for the replies.

I haven't been taking MSM or glucosamine for months now. I've been taking the following for a while now:

- 2,000 IU vitamin D3
- 500 mg vitamin C
- 2 caps of Ortho-Core
- 1 cap of LEF vitamin K2 twice a week

I've been less consistent with other supplements. Other than that, I've been doing intermittent fasting for about 8 months now, and I also drink lots of green tea. As far as I know, none of these things should adversely affect wound healing.

As for doctors... I'm not too impressed with their knowledge on supplements and diet here in Finland. Hell, whenever I mention I don't eat bread they go crazy.

EDIT: Oh, and flavonoids: I drink a berry smoothie with strawberries, raspberries, blackcurrants and blueberries almost daily.

Edited by JLL, 11 April 2009 - 12:42 PM.

[nowayout]

Insufficient stage 4 sleep, perhaps?

[Mixter]

Most probable reason for imminst visitors: calorie restriction / diet?

Did anything to slow down your metabolism recently? Including significantly increasing your antioxidant intake?

That may be to blame. By itself, slightly slower wound healing due to slow metabolism is really no cause for concern.

But if it bugs you, increase B vitamins and protein intake, and also increase sleep. Plus make sure thyroid blood levels (fT3, fT4) are not too far off.

[kismet]

There has other things like EGCG that block MMP's, but also result in faster wound healing and less scarring... so its not inhibiton of MMP enzymes that are necessarily making wounds not heal properly.

I guess this depends on the MMP (the MMP-family is huge), the degree of inhibition and other factors. I believe some sort of inhibition could be benefical, some detrimental. As I said, wound healing is mostly a black art. Similarly our knowledge about exogenous substances improving wound healing is pretty low. We know retinoids improve wound healing, but how? No one really knows. Silicone gel sheets, yeah, but how? Bleomycin, 5-Fluorouracil?

[JLL]

Insufficient stage 4 sleep, perhaps?

Well, I have been sleeping less than I used to, but that's because I feel like I need less sleep than before. I do get 7 hours of sleep per night. Shouldn't that be enough?

Most probable reason for imminst visitors: calorie restriction / diet?

Did anything to slow down your metabolism recently? Including significantly increasing your antioxidant intake?

That may be to blame. By itself, slightly slower wound healing due to slow metabolism is really no cause for concern.

But if it bugs you, increase B vitamins and protein intake, and also increase sleep. Plus make sure thyroid blood levels (fT3, fT4) are not too far off.

How do I know if my metabolism has slowed down? I guess intermittent fasting could have that effect. I've kept my calorie intake pretty close to 2,000 kcal, so it's not CR, though.

It seems to me there's antioxidants in pretty much everything, so it's hard to say. I'm sure the berry smoothe has a lot of antioxidants. I also eat lots of dark chocolate and nowadays also red palm oil, which might contribute to that. And green tea's catechins are of course antioxidants. So yeah, I think my antioxidant intake is quite high (though it hasn't been my goal per se; it's more of a side effect).

Do you mean that antioxidant intake is related to metabolism? How does that work?

[Matt]

I haven't read the whole thing but you might want to check this out

Effects of caloric restriction on cell proliferation in several tissues in mice: role of intermittent feeding
http://ajpendo.physi...full/288/5/E965

[JLL]

I haven't read the whole thing but you might want to check this out

Effects of caloric restriction on cell proliferation in several tissues in mice: role of intermittent feeding
http://ajpendo.physi...full/288/5/E965

Thanks. I've come across that one before but didn't pay much attention then. So, considering you've done CR for quite a while now, have you noticed slower wound healing? I wonder what decreased epidermal cell proliferation means for hair growth.

[Matt]

I did notice a difference once but then increased my zinc intake and the problem went away. I have very strong nails, and very thick hair now (see; http://img.photobuck...82/HPIM2158.jpg ). Everything has improved really... If I get bitten or a cut it heals nicely, my hair for example has only gotten more thick with CR as oposed to thinner which some 'dieters' tend to get. As you can see here I really need a hair cut LOL. At least I'm not getting receeding hair lines as with some old school mates lol

Edited by Matt, 12 April 2009 - 05:50 PM.

[JLL]

Hmm, according to CRON-O-METER my zinc intake is indeed quite low on some days (~5 mg). 2 caps of Ortho-Core gives me another ~4 mg zinc. Perhaps I should try a zinc supplement and see what happens.

[JLL]

The zinc experiment for wound healing has begun. We'll see what happens.

[kismet]

Good blog post. How's your vitamin A intake? Deficiency could decrease wound healing. Yesterday I read and briefly summarised a review about retinoids and wound healing (I don't know why, I guess your thread subconsciously reminded me to again read up on retinoids). The verdict: if you plan to cut yourself, apply a retinoid before doing it. Unfortunately, we're not sure whether it can speed healing of a wound if applied just after wounding.  
The point you raise about vitamin D (which also applies to vitamin K) is interesting. Although, to be more exact we should say the AI (=adequate intake) sucks, not the RDA, because there is no established vitamin D/K RDA yet. But if there was one, presumably it would suck too (judging by the attitude of the IOM resarchers).

[Matt]

There were a few CRONies that ended up with Zinc deficiency, might have been from the high intakes of Copper.

[JLL]

Good blog post. How's your vitamin A intake? Deficiency could decrease wound healing. Yesterday I read and briefly summarised a review about retinoids and wound healing (I don't know why, I guess your thread subconsciously reminded me to again read up on retinoids). The verdict: if you plan to cut yourself, apply a retinoid before doing it. Unfortunately, we're not sure whether it can speed healing of a wound if applied just after wounding.

On a typical day, I get 3,000 IU of vitamin A (52 mcg retinol, 33 mcg alpha-carotene, 178 mcg beta-carotene, 2400 mcg lutein + zeaxanthin).

The point you raise about vitamin D (which also applies to vitamin K) is interesting. Although, to be more exact we should say the AI (=adequate intake) sucks, not the RDA, because there is no established vitamin D/K RDA yet. But if there was one, presumably it would suck too (judging by the attitude of the IOM resarchers).

Thanks for pointing that out, I'll fix the blog post tomorrow.

[kurdishfella]

Take protein, calcium and vitamin d.
I didnt know it but i had an wound inside my leg and when i started taking these i got enourmous pain in my leg because it was so damaged and needed to heal. it was so painful if i had a gun that night i would have shot myself but it was part of the delayed healing process

Edited by kurdishfella, 31 August 2022 - 01:06 PM.