25 replies to this topic

[dehbleh]

It's been a little over 4 years of experimenting with various supplements. Initially it was just nootropics, then herbs, antioxidants, vitamins and so on.. Hindsight shows that I went about my quest for health in the wrong order. Little did I know at the time that my so called "brain fog" was the result of many different factors that no nootropic was going to cure.

Anyway, it feels like the whole thing has been a tediously long and unnecessary journey. A journey that could've caused irreparable damage to my health.
Let the mistakes of myself and others warn anyone thinking they would like to try every supplement under the sun. For the sake of your health, it's not worth it!

My advice for newbies, start with basics (multivitamin, fish oil, vitamin d, proper diet including real food) and get your blood levels tested every 6 months. Blood results are the ONLY reliable indicator of your progress.

Okay, back to my regimen.
As you can see, I borrowed a couple of ideas from Zoolander in buying bulk (6 months at a time) and taking regular breaks on weekends. Everything is tracked in a spreadsheet and I would roughly spend about $450-500 (AUD) every 6 months or so.

The Orange highlighted supplements are for exercising only and this is usually done 3-4 days each week.




The following points have made the biggest impact to my health, thus far:

* Switching to a Paleo diet including limited dairy intake (kefir and aged cheese)
* Normalising Vitamin D3 levels. My initial blood levels of Vitamin D3 were 19 ng/ml and I reached 47 ng/ml after 4 months of careful supplementation. Right now I'm aiming at the 60-70ng/ml range.
* Strength training

Edited by dehbleh, 12 April 2009 - 06:04 AM.

[kismet]

Why copper? Why CoQ10? (AFAIK intake should depend on age, but you didn't tell us your age) Why benfotiamine but no pyridoxamine or P5P?

[nameless]

I would guess the copper is to balance out the zinc from the Now Adam multi. But would a lower dose of copper daily be better than 3mg twice weekly? I'm not sure how zinc-copper balance works exactly, if you need to even things out each day, or weekly, etc.

Regimen doesn't look that bad, although you may be better off going for higher dose fish oil, to reduce the number of pills you have to take. I'm also not that big a fan of Now Adam, due to the alpha-only E, high folic acid, & unbalanced zinc-copper. AOR Multi-Basics may be a better option, but it's also more expensive.

Edited by nameless, 12 April 2009 - 04:39 PM.

[kismet]

I would guess the copper is to balance out the zinc from the Now Adam multi. But would a lower dose of copper daily be better than 3mg twice weekly? I'm not sure how zinc-copper balance works exactly, if you need to even things out each day, or weekly, etc.

How much zinc does it contain anyway? I wouldn't supplement more than 10mg/d (actually I believe that only CRONies, vegetarians and vegans need to supplement at all). Is it necessary to balance zinc with copper at such a low dose? (I've been taking 30mg zinc/d w/o any copper for some time now, because apparently I can't get any cheap copper. No anemia, yet! I believe what I'm doing is pretty stupid, though.)
I'm also worried about zinc and prostate cancer; there's a correlation and we can't tell in which direction it goes yet. However, Debleh didn't tell us whether (s)he has a prostate gland or not.

Still, I believe b6-derivates are superior to benfotiamine in the first place. Furthermore benfotiamine could possibly increase cancer risk, B6 not.

[krillin]

How much zinc does it contain anyway? I wouldn't supplement more than 10mg/d (actually I believe that only CRONies, vegetarians and vegans need to supplement at all). Is it necessary to balance zinc with copper at such a low dose? (I've been taking 30mg zinc/d w/o any copper for some time now, because apparently I can't get any cheap copper. No anemia, yet! I believe what I'm doing is pretty stupid, though.)
I'm also worried about zinc and prostate cancer; there's a correlation and we can't tell in which direction it goes yet. However, Debleh didn't tell us whether (s)he has a prostate gland or not.

The highest total intake of zinc I can justify is ~25 mg/day (15 supp + 9 dietary in my case), based on PMID 18353905 and 12837837. My dietary copper is 2 mg/day, so the Zn/Cu ratio is a nice 12:1. PMID 16570028 says to stay out of the top quartile of copper, which is about > 2mg, so copper supplemention looks suicidal to me unless you're correcting a known deficiency.

[dehbleh]

Why copper? Why CoQ10? (AFAIK intake should depend on age, but you didn't tell us your age) Why benfotiamine but no pyridoxamine or P5P?

Copper levels were low in my last blood test (bordering on deficiency).

I believe this was due to a high dose zinc supplement I was taking for quite some time (back when I didn't know what to take). I've also just upped my Vitamin C intake, which chelates copper to a limited extent. I only intend on taking it for 6 months, then I'll rely on my multi and diet for intake (eat more sesame seeds!).

CoQ10 because of my heart (mildly enlarged). Helps keep blood pressure at bay and for overall protective effect.

Benfotiamine for AGE reduction and because it keeps my blood pressure low particularly after meals. I've found it works really well for this purpose!
It may be dropped at some stage as blood sugar issues are slowly disappearing with vitamin d restoration (surprised me big time).

Have not tried pyridoxamine or P5P yet, what has your experience been with them?

[nameless]

The highest total intake of zinc I can justify is ~25 mg/day (15 supp + 9 dietary in my case), based on PMID 18353905 and 12837837. My dietary copper is 2 mg/day, so the Zn/Cu ratio is a nice 12:1. PMID 16570028 says to stay out of the top quartile of copper, which is about > 2mg, so copper supplemention looks suicidal to me unless you're correcting a known deficiency.

Instead of relying on zinc or copper intake (diet or supplements) wouldn't it make more sense to rely on serum tests? Of course if a person consumes tons of zinc or copper, the odds are their serum will be high too, but it's possible some people are deficient.

Although for serum copper, how reliable is it as an indicator of copper status anyway? According to the Linus Pauling people, serum copper may be an indicator of inflammation, not copper status, hence maybe the increased mortality at higher rates. And possibly why those in the top quartile of copper in that study you mentioned had increased mortality too. How do we know it's not inflammation instead of copper intake?

------------

It is important to note that serum copper largely reflects serum ceruloplasmin and is not a sensitive indicator of copper nutritional status. Serum ceruloplasmin levels are known to increase by 50% or more under certain conditions of physical stress, such as trauma, inflammation, or disease. Because over 90% of serum copper is carried in ceruloplasmin, which is increased in many inflammatory conditions, elevated serum copper may simply be a marker of inflammation that accompanies atherosclerosis.

[kismet]

I think serum zinc is rather inaccurate.

Dehbleh, no experience w/ b6 derivates, but researching and adding them is on my to-do list. However, I've researched benfotiamine and I was disappointed with most results. So far B6 looks better from a benefit:risk perspective.

[krillin]

You guys are right: testing copper and zinc is about as useful as testing calcium. Michael wrote something on this recently.

Dietary copper seems to be good for some things and bad for others. Targeting the middle quartiles seems prudent.

Nutr Cancer. 2004;49(1):66-71.
High dietary iron and copper and risk of colorectal cancer: a case-control study in Burgundy, France.
Senesse P, Meance S, Cottet V, Faivre J, Boutron-Ruault MC.
Registre Bourguignon des Cancers Digestifs, Faculté de Médecine, Dijon cedex, France.

Several hypotheses have been proposed for colorectal carcinogenesis, including formation of free radicals. A case-control study compared nutrient intake in 171 colorectal cancer cases versus 309 general population controls, using a detailed face-to-face food history questionnaire. A food composition table enabled us to determine the mean composition of the diet in macro- and micronutrients. Dietary intakes were separately categorized into quartiles by gender. Logistic regression models were adjusted for age, sex, energy, exercise, and body mass index. High energy, copper, iron, and vitamin E intakes were associated with an overall increased risk of colorectal cancer. The odds ratios associated with the fourth quartile of intake were 2.3 (95% confidence interval, 1.3-4.0), 2.4 (1.3-4.6), 2.2 (1.1-4.7), and 1.8 (1.0-3.4) for energy, copper, iron, and vitamin E, respectively. There were no significant associations with dietary fiber, folate, calcium, or antioxidant vitamins other than vitamin E. These findings regarding iron and copper suggest that free radicals play an important role in colorectal carcinogenesis, while the findings regarding vitamin E are so far unexplained.

PMID: 15456637

Int J Cancer. 2007 Mar 1;120(5):1108-15.
Dietary zinc, copper and selenium, and risk of lung cancer.
Mahabir S, Spitz MR, Barrera SL, Beaver SH, Etzel C, Forman MR.
Department of Epidemiology, University of Texas M D Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, TX 77030, USA. smahabir@mdanderson.org

Zinc, copper and selenium are important cofactors for several enzymes that play a role in maintaining DNA integrity. However, limited epidemiologic research on these dietary trace metals and lung cancer risk is available. In an ongoing study of 1,676 incident lung cancer cases and 1,676 matched healthy controls, we studied the associations between dietary zinc, copper and selenium and lung cancer risk. Using multiple logistic regression analysis, the odds ratios (OR) and 95% confidence intervals (CI) of lung cancer for all subjects by increasing quartiles of dietary zinc intake were 1.0, 0.80 (0.65-0.99), 0.64 (0.51-0.81), 0.57 (0.42-0.75), respectively (p trend = 0.0004); similar results were found for men. For dietary copper, the ORs and 95% CI for all subjects were 1.0, 0.59 (0.49-0.73), 0.51 (0.41-0.64), 0.34 (0.26-0.45), respectively (p trend < 0.0001); similar reductions in risk and trend were observed by gender. Dietary selenium intake was not associated with risk, except for a significant inverse trend (p = 0.04) in men. Protective trends (p < 0.05) against lung cancer with increased dietary zinc intake were also found for all ages, BMI > 25, current smokers, pack-years < or =30, light drinkers and participants without emphysema. Increased dietary copper intake was associated with protective trends (p < 0.05) across all ages, BMI, smoking and vitamin/mineral supplement categories, pack-years < or =30 and 30.1-51.75 and participants without emphysema. Our results suggest that dietary zinc and copper intakes are associated with reduced risk of lung cancer. Given the known limitations of case-control studies, these findings must be interpreted with caution and warrant further investigation. Copyright 2006 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

PMID: 17131334

[nameless]

You guys are right: testing copper and zinc is about as useful as testing calcium. Michael wrote something on this recently.

Dietary copper seems to be good for some things and bad for others. Targeting the middle quartiles seems prudent.

What I am confused about is: if we use the study data for zinc or copper serum values to define rates of mortality or health risks, what are the serum values actually telling us if zinc/copper testing is inaccurate?

Are they useful for major deficiencies/overdosing -- bottom and top quartiles -- or completely worthless?

And if shooting for the middle quartiles for dietary intake, what are these values? RDA levels? And how does overall dietary/mineral intake influence requirements?

Edited by nameless, 14 April 2009 - 07:51 AM.

[kismet]

And if shooting for the middle quartiles for dietary intake, what are these values? RDA levels? And how does overall dietary/mineral intake influence requirements?

Why aim for middle quartiles? Two studies; two different results. We shouldn't base our choice on two contradictory studies anyway.

I believe that MR mentioned that the RDAs are pretty good. Vitamin K/D is another story (no established RDA as of yet).

[krillin]

What I am confused about is: if we use the study data for zinc or copper serum values to define rates of mortality or health risks, what are the serum values actually telling us if zinc/copper testing is inaccurate?

Are they useful for major deficiencies/overdosing -- bottom and top quartiles -- or completely worthless?

And if shooting for the middle quartiles for dietary intake, what are these values? RDA levels? And how does overall dietary/mineral intake influence requirements?

I'm not relying on studies with serum values anymore. My latest references estimated intakes.

The middle quartiles for my age group range from 1.34 - 2.04 mg/day. RDA is 0.9 mg. I get 0.7 of my 2 mg from 1/2 cup nuts. This total doesn't count what comes with my chlorophyllin because I don't know how much copper actually gets broken off of the molecule.

Zinc is the only thing that would plausibly increase copper requirement. Not many people here gorge on iron and fructose.

[krillin]

Why aim for middle quartiles? Two studies; two different results. We shouldn't base our choice on two contradictory studies anyway.

I believe that MR mentioned that the RDAs are pretty good. Vitamin K/D is another story (no established RDA as of yet).

Colorectal cancer paper rules out the top quartile. Lung cancer paper says the more the better, so my first choice is 3rd quartile. But the colorectal cancer abstract doesn't mention the 2nd and 3rd quartile odds ratios, so there is a possibility that 2nd is a lot better than 3rd.

The two studies aren't contradictory: they're about two different diseases. I believe you said in another thread that there's no such thing as a free lunch, and that we have to weigh risks and benefits.

To get the RDA I'd have to cut all the nuts out of my diet, which goes against a lot of epidemiology.

B2's RDA is probably too low for people with the MTHFR polymorphism. B6's RDA should be doubled to 4 mg based on homocysteine data. C's RDA should be higher based on cataract epidemiology and the REACT and AREDS trials. (AREDS only found reduction of AMD, but it only lasted for 6-7 years, and multiple epidemiology papers say that you have to take C supplements for at least 10 years to see an effect.)

[kismet]

I mean contradictory as in "two optimal requirements for two different conditions" (true to the no free lunch philosophy)
My first thought was just that maybe it's better to focus solely on lung cancer, as it's probably deadlier than colorectal cancer and there are no (or not many) known prevention strategies other than not-smoking. Emerging prevention strategies for colorecal cancer are calcium, vitamin D (may help with lung cancer too) and probably reducing alcohol, red meat/processed meat intake. If oxidative damage plays a role (as the authors imply) a healthy diet might mitigate the harmful effects to some degree. On the other hand copper could increase glycation damage.
Are there any other epidemiologic studies on that topic?

Edited by kismet, 15 April 2009 - 12:07 PM.

[nameless]

Zinc is the only thing that would plausibly increase copper requirement. Not many people here gorge on iron and fructose.

I'm also concerned about things that can deplete zinc, such as Ace inhibitors --

Golik A, Modai D, Averbukh Z, et al. Zinc metabolism in patients treated with captopril versus enalapril. Metabolism. 1990;39:665-667.

Golik A, Zaidenstein R, Dishi V, et al. Effects of captopril and enalapril on zinc metabolism in hypertensive patients. J Am Coll Nutr. 1998;17:75-80.

Although I don't take those specific ace inhibitors, I do take Altace, so have a concern there. I also tried the zinc taste test a while back, and pretty much failed miserably (no taste from it).

But I really have no idea how much to supplement with, if I should take copper along with zinc, or for how long. Or even if the taste test is reliable. I've been supplementing 30mg zinc/2mg copper for the last week, which I probably will continue for several more weeks, then I probably will go to 15/1 from then on and hope it's enough.

[Lufega]

dehbleh,

What kind of signs and symptoms do you have? What made the doctor look at your copper levels in the first place? I also have a copper deficiency so this subject is of great interest to me. Ironically though, I found that supplementing with 3 mg copper was actually detrimental to my health. It produced a new hernia and It made me age tremendously in a short period of time. I can't attribute that quality to any other supplement I was taking. Since ceasing the use of copper, my hernia retracted on it's own and I'm starting to look "younger" again. Maybe it's just me. To make sure, I started on copper again after taking a break and to no surprise, hernia acted up again. What I find interesting is that ceruloplasmin was low even after using copper for 6 months. I did not use Zinc at this time.

I don't know what the best test is, there is free copper, serum copper, whole blood, RBC copper and liver copper via biopsy. I'm opting for the latter to see what's really going on there.

Also, copper is most important in the function of superoxide dismutase. Have you looked at glisodin or maybe NAC?

Edited by Lufega, 16 April 2009 - 04:10 AM.

[nameless]

dehbleh,

What kind of signs and symptoms do you have? What made the doctor look at your copper levels in the first place? I also have a copper deficiency so this subject is of great interest to me.

Thing is, if serum tesing is inaccurate (and perhaps hair testing is too?), how do you know you had a copper deficiency? Other biomarkers?

[krillin]

Are there any other epidemiologic studies on that topic?

PMID: 18086784 confirms copper and zinc vs lung cancer. Even high iron helped.

Everything else I found just had blood levels.

[Kutta]

As for zinc intake, I second that 25 mg would be reasonable. My question is: is EOD or rather every third day zinc supplementation okay, considering I've got 50mg caps?

[Lufega]

dehbleh,

What kind of signs and symptoms do you have? What made the doctor look at your copper levels in the first place? I also have a copper deficiency so this subject is of great interest to me.

Thing is, if serum tesing is inaccurate (and perhaps hair testing is too?), how do you know you had a copper deficiency? Other biomarkers?

I concluded I had a copper deficiency due to the signs and symptoms. For me, these were mostly connective tissue problems. Then I started to test and I wasn't surprised they all came back and continue to come back low. I don't know anything about these tests being innacurate. It seems a bit on the theoretical side for the moment. If they really are innacurate, then what are we left to do??? Serum magnesium tests are also innacurate when results are normal but not when they show up deficient. Maybe the same goes for copper???

[krillin]

As for zinc intake, I second that 25 mg would be reasonable. My question is: is EOD or rather every third day zinc supplementation okay, considering I've got 50mg caps?

Yes. Google "zinc biological half-life" and you get a bunch of numbers, all greater than two days. Some papers break it down into three half-lives, with the terminal half-life being something like 300 days.

[dehbleh]

dehbleh,

What kind of signs and symptoms do you have? What made the doctor look at your copper levels in the first place? I also have a copper deficiency so this subject is of great interest to me.

Symptoms? Well I don't know if this could be attributed solely to copper deficiency but wounds were always healing very slowly.
What made my doctor look at copper levels? He was *actually* determined to get to the bottom of my fatigue issues, not fog them off as something inside my head.

[sentrysnipe]

@dehbleh

What's the science behind your taking D3 at night and at one dose at a time? I want to know as I am also supplementing in large doses. THanks

[dehbleh]

@dehbleh

What's the science behind your taking D3 at night and at one dose at a time? I want to know as I am also supplementing in large doses. THanks

Vitamin D3 is fat soluble and stays in your body for awhile. As far as I'm aware, you could take one very large dose each month.
Your blood levels would even out to that of someone taking the same amount but spread over many days. I'm not really taking "lots" given that I don't take any supplements on the weekend.

[sentrysnipe]

@dehbleh

What's the science behind your taking D3 at night and at one dose at a time? I want to know as I am also supplementing in large doses. THanks

Vitamin D3 is fat soluble and stays in your body for awhile. As far as I'm aware, you could take one very large dose each month.
Your blood levels would even out to that of someone taking the same amount but spread over many days. I'm not really taking "lots" given that I don't take any supplements on the weekend.

why night time?

[dehbleh]

why night time?

Because it doesn't really matter what time you take it (fat soluble). I like to take the bulk of my supps at night, in one go. Makes it easier.