10 replies to this topic

[Not_Supplied]

Hi there.

I thought this article was pretty well reasoned, to me as a layman anyway. I'm interested to know if the paleo dieters have anything to say about his criticisms, and what all of you think of the general guidelines.

1) Eat every 2-3 hours
2) Eat lean, complete protein with each meal
3) Eat veggies with each meal
4) Eat "other" carbs only during and after exercise
5) Eat a balanced fat profile containing 1/3 of each type of fat
6) Ditch the calorie-containing drinks
7) Use whole foods as your primary source of nutrition
8) Have 10% foods
9) Develop food preparation strategies
10) Balance daily food choices with healthy variety

number 4) - he advocates eating grains and simple carbs during and after exercise...for the reason that the body can 'tolerate' them better.

Peace.

[CobaltThoriumG]

Hi there.

I thought this article was pretty well reasoned, to me as a layman anyway. I'm interested to know if the paleo dieters have anything to say about his criticisms, and what all of you think of the general guidelines.

1) Eat every 2-3 hours
2) Eat lean, complete protein with each meal
3) Eat veggies with each meal
4) Eat "other" carbs only during and after exercise
5) Eat a balanced fat profile containing 1/3 of each type of fat
6) Ditch the calorie-containing drinks
7) Use whole foods as your primary source of nutrition
8) Have 10% foods
9) Develop food preparation strategies
10) Balance daily food choices with healthy variety

number 4) - he advocates eating grains and simple carbs during and after exercise...for the reason that the body can 'tolerate' them better.

Peace.

It looks pretty close to paleo aside from the unrefined grains in moderation. What's a 10% food?

[Mind]

An entertaining writing style from that fellow. Enjoyed it. However, he is not saying that the paleo diet is bad or deficient (in fact his list is pretty much what most paleo dieters consume), just that there was no single paleo diet among ancient humans. Diet varied quite a bit across time and space.

[Not_Supplied]

In some cases, Paleolithic folks apparently acted as top-level carnivores, almost exclusively eating a protein-fat diet. But it is important to note that rather than this being the ideal diet many
paleo-nutritionists are selling you, an almost exclusive high protein-fat diet
was not the norm, and in fact is was a less-desirable diet than a well-balanced one.

Most Paleo-diet folks will have you believe that carbohydrates and grains were virtually absent during the Paleolithic. Not so.

Yeh, it seems he is advocating more or less paleo, but eat some carbs including grains and legumes. I had the impression a lot of paleo people avoided starchy foods like the plague...

[Skötkonung]

Like the others have said, everything outlined in the article pretty much reinforces what paleo dieters eat. The big difference is that a true paleo diet doesn't incorporate grains or dairy.

While paleo dieters are concerned quite a bit about macronutrient ratio, the more or less un-discussed (at least on these forums) aspect of the regimen is food source. Paleo dieters are free to eat a wide range of fresh fruits, vegetables, nuts, and lean / organic meats. Some paleo dieters eat fermented foods such as cheese and tempeh, but usually all stay away from these same foods in their whole form (grains, beans, and occasionally milk). The reason being, these foods were not found during the paleolithic periods judging from the skeletal remains of paleolithic peoples (carbon isotope signatures found in their bone collagen) and artifacts from that period.

But I digress, since grains are the only food we know for certain wasn't introduced until the neolithic and humans are very adaptable omnivores, we should probably be discussing the individual merits of each of these food items:

- Grains. According to Foundation for Celiacs Disease, there are 9 known genes for gluten sensitivity or allergy. Almost all humans have at least one of them. Many have two copies. Grains are usually highly processed and nutritionally devoid. For example, when Neolithic humans first began farming and consuming grains in high amounts, their average height and lifespan fell drastically due to malnutrition. In our modern society, with an abundance of fresh fruits and vegetables, why opt for a lower quality food? I consider bread akin to junk food. It tastes good but maybe isn't the best for you.

- Milk. Lactose intolerance isn't as widely spread as gluten sensitivity or gluten intolerance. Depending on your region of origin, you may be better suited for milk consumption. It has a solid nutritional profile but can contain lots of impurities (such as antibiotics and bovine growth hormone) depending on the source. I drink raw milk occasionally from a local dairy. I prefer cheese over milk because it is a good protein source and it allows me to focus my carbohydrate allowance on more nutritionally dense foods.

- Legumes. Although some versions of the diet except green beans and peas as they are legumes. Some versions simply say that if it can't be eaten raw, don't eat it (though this doesn't mean that it must be eaten raw, only that it should be able to be eaten raw). Potatoes and other starchy tubers are not allowed.

More info about legumes / grains on human biology:
http://www.beyondveg...egumes-1a.shtml

Edited by Skotkonung, 16 April 2009 - 08:06 PM.

[Johan]

[...] Some paleo dieters eat fermented foods such as cheese and tempeh, but usually all stay away from these same foods in their whole form (grains, beans, and occasionally milk). [...] Lactose intolerance isn't as widely spread as gluten sensitivity or gluten intolerance. Depending on your region of origin, you may be better suited for milk consumption. It has a solid nutritional profile but can contain lots of impurities (such as antibiotics and bovine growth hormone) depending on the source. I drink raw milk occasionally from a local dairy. I prefer cheese over milk because it is a good protein source and it allows me to focus my carbohydrate allowance on more nutritionally dense foods. [...]

What do you think about fermented milk, such as yogurt or filmjölk, in the context of a Paleo diet? There seems to be some benefits of fermentation compared to regular milk - lower glycemic and insulin index [1], and possibly probiotic and other effects [2,3]. If I were to consume it, I would go for the organic varieties, to avoid some of the impurities you mentioned.

1. Ostman EM, Liljeberg Elmståhl HG, Björck IM. Inconsistency between glycemic and insulinemic responses to regular and fermented milk products. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Jul; 74 (1): 96-100.
2. Meyer AL, Micksche M, Herbacek I, Elmadfa I. Daily intake of probiotic as well as as conventional yogurt has a stimulating effect on cellular immunity in young healthy women. Ann Nutr Metab. 2006; 50 (3): 282-9. (NB: This study was partly supported by Danone, a dairy company.)
3. Parra D, De Morentin BM, Cobo JM, Mateos A, Martinez JA. Monocyte function in healthy middle-aged people receiving fermented milk containing Lactobacillus casei. J Nutr Health Aging. 2004; 8 (4): 208-11.

[JLL]

Do you have any studies to show that milk contains antibiotics or growth hormones? From what I've read, it doesn't. I'm not a big fan of milk for many reasons (though I do like the taste a lot), but antibiotics are not one of them.

[Skötkonung]

Do you have any studies to show that milk contains antibiotics or growth hormones? From what I've read, it doesn't. I'm not a big fan of milk for many reasons (though I do like the taste a lot), but antibiotics are not one of them.

The most damaging stress-related disease to cattle is mastitis (an inflammation of the udders). It reduces milk yield and directly affects milk quality by altering composition and increasing the somatic cell count (pus). The National Mastitis Council estimates that it costs about $200 per cow per year on the average dairy farm. Mastitis is increased by hormones such as rBGH, which is also used to increase milk production. As a result, commercially produced milk has a higher content of pus (from mastitis), antiobiotics (used to treat mastitis), and of course rBGH. It should be noted that rBGH is banned in Canada and the EU.

Sources:

Removal of contaminants (antibiotics, sulphamides, etc.) from milk
http://www.invenia.e...05_es_nwff_0cje

rBGH and Cancer
http://www.cancer.or...wth_Hormone.asp

Milk: America’s Health Problem
http://preventcancer...eneral/milk.htm

Regarding antibiotics:

The surveys, then the scientific studies carried out demonstrated that whatever the route used to administerantibiotic treatments, they could be transferred to milk(see the transfer mechanisms of antibiotics to milk). Thustreatments administered by general route (subcutaneous,intramuscular and intravenous) are an important cause ofmilk contamination. A prevention policy should thereforetake into consideration all kinds of treatments. Note that asimple subconjunctival treatment can be at the origin ofresidues in milk (Ref. 40).

 LesRisquesDeResidus_extrait6_En.pdf   25.93KB   19 downloads

I'm not saying all milk is bad, although some do hold that belief. Just consider the source. Especially now that organic milk is so cheap. Regarding fermented milk, I like kefir and sometimes I will have unflavored organic yogurt. The problem I have with yogurt or kefir is that it is often sweetend with corn syrup or contains some kind of preservative / highly processed fruit additive. Why eat that way when you can get some raw / organic brand and mix in some fresh berries and nuts?

[niner]

From the rBGH and Cancer link above:

there is no evidence that drinking milk, produced with or without rBGH treatment, increases circulating IGF levels into the range of concern. So it is unclear whether drinking milk treated with rBGH has any effect on cancer risk.

And there's no evidence of a problem from the antibiotics, either. On the other hand, inadequacies of calcium, vitamin D, or protein are known to be bad. If we are going to argue that people should or shouldn't consume something, we should at least be accurate about the pros and cons and not engage in baseless fear mongering. Sorry to be so grouchy, but I turned away from milk drinking on the basis of such arguments a long time ago, before I became educated about nutrition. I think that this may have had negative long term consequences, and I wouldn't want some other naive young person to follow that path. There are valid reasons not to drink factory farmed milk, but rBGH and antibiotics are not among them.

[DukeNukem]

Yeh, it seems he is advocating more or less paleo, but eat some carbs including grains and legumes. I had the impression a lot of paleo people avoided starchy foods like the plague...

Not at all. Grains are the plague, but not starch. However, starchy vegetables are the least nutritious and therefore should be less favored than other choices, and should only be eaten in moderation.

[Skötkonung]

From the rBGH and Cancer link above:

there is no evidence that drinking milk, produced with or without rBGH treatment, increases circulating IGF levels into the range of concern. So it is unclear whether drinking milk treated with rBGH has any effect on cancer risk.

And there's no evidence of a problem from the antibiotics, either. On the other hand, inadequacies of calcium, vitamin D, or protein are known to be bad. If we are going to argue that people should or shouldn't consume something, we should at least be accurate about the pros and cons and not engage in baseless fear mongering. Sorry to be so grouchy, but I turned away from milk drinking on the basis of such arguments a long time ago, before I became educated about nutrition. I think that this may have had negative long term consequences, and I wouldn't want some other naive young person to follow that path. There are valid reasons not to drink factory farmed milk, but rBGH and antibiotics are not among them.

First, I never tried to dissuade anyone from drinking milk. Secondly, even if the increased IGF-I in milk (caused by rBGH) is not bioactive in humans, it is known that it causes an increase in mastitis and pus content in milk. This is countered by antibiotics, which are measurably higher in some batches of milk (check above PDF attachment). Also notice the quotation above says "it is unclear" whether there is a danger present. Obviously there was enough concern to ban rBGH in the EU and Canada. That said, given that the price difference between organic milk and regular milk is minimal, why take a risk? Why drink something with a measurably higher pus or antibiotic content when you don't have to?

Quality milk and tests for antibiotic residues.
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8827472

Using the government's own data, as well as research conducted by BGH-manufacturers Monsanto, Dow Chemical and Upjohn, the study argues that BGH may put humans at risk for breast, colon and other gastrointestinal cancers. The reason? Levels of the insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF- 1), which has been linked to cancer and tumor growth, are higher than normal in BGH-treated milk. Despite the FDA's response that IGF-1 passes harmlessly through the human digestive system, Epstein cites evidence that the human intestinal wall can absorb proteins that have a larger molecular weight than IGF-1, suggesting that IGF-1 can readily pass through the gut. He notes that children's and infants' more permeable gut walls may absorb IGF-1 more easily, and warns that pasteurization increases IGF-1 concentrations in milk. His analysis calls on scientists to measure the IGF-1 blood levels in humans drinking milk from cows treated with BGH; so far, no such studies have been conducted.

http://findarticles....23/ai_18069376/

The widespread use of antibiotics has contributed to the control of diseases and the nutritional well-being of livestock. However, the use of antibiotics in the treatment of mastitis has created problems for the milk processor and consumer. Following treatment of mastitis with antibiotics, they may be found in the milk in sufficient concentrations to inhibit dairy starter microorganisms and cause economic losses to the cheese and fermented milk industries. Penicillin in very small concentrations found in milk may cause reactions in highly sensitive individuals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14620860

Again, even if the risk is minimal, I'd rather avoid it.