14 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

I am fed up with the blanket statement many people have made that 'carbohydrate dense foods' are higher in AGEs than other foods. This is a specious claim and one that needs to be corrected right now. it is true that SOME carbohydrate dense foods are way high in AGEs content and can lead to the bodies own production of them, we ought to add that when making such assertions we are referring, mostly, to PROCESSED and high GI carbohydrates. Some carbohydrates actually fight insulin responses because of their isoflavone benefits. Please tell me what is wrong with lentils someone? Please tell me what is wrong with OATS? Or rice? Or better yet, the mechanism by which the carbohydrates found in these foods leads to high AGE formation in the body? Is there a reason we should let the lie persist that high fat foods are not more responsible for AGEs formation than carbohydrate dense foods? Is the only reason because this flies in the face of the Paleo dream? Serious discussion people. Please.

EDIT: I wanna know why Paleo dieters are not talking about how inherently high in AGEs content their diets are.

Edited by TheFountain, 18 April 2009 - 11:37 PM.

[kismet]

EDIT: I wanna know why Paleo dieters are not talking about how inherently high in AGEs content their diets are.

Because they aren't. They should eat raw. 

Other than that, you're right. I really hope no one's claiming that carbohydrate rich foods per se are rich in AGEs (paradoxically typically prepared they are often quite low in AGEs).

Edited by kismet, 19 April 2009 - 12:19 AM.

[TheFountain]

EDIT: I wanna know why Paleo dieters are not talking about how inherently high in AGEs content their diets are.

Because they aren't. They should eat raw.

Other than that, you're right. I really hope no one's claiming that carbohydrate rich foods per se are rich in AGEs (paradoxically typically prepared they are often quite low in AGEs).

Quite true, rice is almost always boiled, lentils as well, oats as well. It is the processing of carbohydrates which leads to AGE formation, not the typically raw form many of them take. Whereas the normally espoused 'high fat' paleo diet is ridiculously high in AGEs. How could the latter lead to either maximal youthspan OR maximal life-span?

Edited by TheFountain, 19 April 2009 - 12:27 AM.

[Mind]

Well, this is news to me. I haven't read too much about carbohydrate rich foods being high in AGEs, unless you are talking about french fries, doughnuts, deep fried beer battered mushrooms, etc... Most of the Paleo dieters around here embrace fruits and vegetables. The main criticism of carbs comes from witnessing the American diet which is very high in carbs and low in healthy fats. A single potato is fine. A single serving of rice is fine. Americans typically eat a whole pile, hundreds if not over 1,000 calories worth of carbs in a single meal. Heaps of pasta, french fries, potatoes, mac and cheese, etc... This is bad and is causing an epidemic of obesity and diabetes.

[TheFountain]

Well, this is news to me. I haven't read too much about carbohydrate rich foods being high in AGEs, unless you are talking about french fries, doughnuts, deep fried beer battered mushrooms, etc... Most of the Paleo dieters around here embrace fruits and vegetables. The main criticism of carbs comes from witnessing the American diet which is very high in carbs and low in healthy fats. A single potato is fine. A single serving of rice is fine. Americans typically eat a whole pile, hundreds if not over 1,000 calories worth of carbs in a single meal. Heaps of pasta, french fries, potatoes, mac and cheese, etc... This is bad and is causing an epidemic of obesity and diabetes.

The theme you keep reiterating here with regard to the typical american diet is that of High GI carbs and high AGEs meat, both which work in conjunction and result in Advance glycation end products. But too often the misinformation comes in the form of people lumping all carbs into the same category. Then they will lump all grains and legumes into the same category. Lentils and rice do not belong in the same category as white flour. Even if you're typically eating 3 servings of rice and 4 servings of lentils at a time.

Edited by TheFountain, 19 April 2009 - 12:42 AM.

[TheFountain]

I am convinced the Paleo diet is a lot higher in AGEs than the typical high carb vegan diet, as long as the main source of vegan carbs is not processed.

[JLL]

Lumping all carbs into the same category has nothing to do with AGEs. I don't think the point of paleo diets is to reduce AGEs, it's to emulate the diet of our ancestors. Our ancestors probably consumed a lot of AGEs after they invented the use of fire. Just how bad exogenous AGEs are is a big unknown at the moment.

[TheFountain]

Just how bad exogenous AGEs are is a big unknown at the moment.

Not really. And perhaps a lot of what carb consumption is blamed for is relative to life long AGEs formation. To be fair processed carbs are AGE forming and terrible too, but we are talking about a major gap between white flour and, say, lentils. Explain how low GI legumes and grains cause advanced glycation end products.

Edited by TheFountain, 19 April 2009 - 01:21 AM.

[TheFountain]

I don't think exogenous should include AGEs that form in the food itself as a result of cooking method.

[Skötkonung]

I am convinced the Paleo diet is a lot higher in AGEs than the typical high carb vegan diet, as long as the main source of vegan carbs is not processed.

On what basis do you make this assertion?

Vegan and vegetarian diets contain fewer anti-glycation compounds such as carnosine, B vitamins, and lipoic acid as they are derived primarily from meat.

Studies on AGEs and diet seem to show similar findings:

Advanced glycation end products and nutrition
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12234125

Plasma levels of advanced glycation end products in healthy, long-term vegetarians and subjects on a western mixed diet
http://cat.inist.fr/...cpsidt=14158061

These were the first two studies that came up searching on Google. Vegetarians show higher circulating levels of AGEs over a normal American diet. Furthermore, I don't believe there is a campaign of disinformation by people touting low carbohydrate diets or paleo diets. Currently, the majority opinion in the nutritional science world is that fat is bad and carbohydrates are good. If anything, there is a campaign of disinformation about the benefits of carbohydrates.

Dr Eades recently did a post on the subject of nutritional disinformation and the epidemic of obesity:
http://www.proteinpo...ic-environment/

In his article, he analyzed the latest NHANES data, which shows that the average American consumes about 250 calories more per day. NHANES data also confirms that this 250 calorie increase comes from carbohydrates.

Finally, and most importantly, regarding the Paleo attitude on carbohydrates and AGEs, I urge you to read the following:
http://lifespotlight...n-end-products/

I see no disinformation. They stick to the facts. Quotes from above link:

What Are AGEs?
AGEs are the end-products of glycation reactions, in which a sugar molecule bonds to either a protein or lipid molecule without an enzyme to control the reaction. A similar reaction, known as glycosylation, uses an enzyme to control the reaction, targeting specific receptor sites on cells. Glycation, on the other hand, “is a haphazard process that impairs the functioning of biomolecules”.

Where Do AGEs Come From?
Advanced Glycation End products can come from two sources: the food we eat and internal production in the body. Let’s look at each of them.

AGE Formation In Food
When proteins are cooked with sugars in the absense of water, AGEs are formed. Water, however, prevents these sugars from binding to the protein molecules. Now, I know what you’re thinking when you hear the word “protein”: flesh. I was too, until I got to reading. However, grains, vegetables, fruits, and such all have protein in them as well, with browning being an indication of AGEs: According to these new findings, brown foods, such as brown cookies, brown bread crust, brown basted meats and brown beans, and even brown coffee beans may increase nerve damage, particularly in diabetics who are unusually susceptible to nerve damage. These are the very reactions that give certain foods their flavors after cooking. Food-borne AGEs are absorbed with about 30% efficiency when ingested.

AGE Formation In The Body
Once you’ve eaten, the body can still glycate the simple sugars in your food. A small proportion of the sugar in your bloodstream is glycated, while the rest goes to running your metabolic machinery. Consider what happens in the bloodstream of a diabetic with chronically elevated blood sugar. There are many opportunities for this circulating sugar to be glycated, which helps explain why diabetics have such high incidences of the issues discussed in the next section. Fructose and galactose undergo glycation at about 10 times the rate as does glucose. Considering the dramatic increase in sugar consumption over the past several decades, and the subsequent increase in fructose consumption (recall that most sweeteners are approximately 50% fructose), is there any question why we’re seeing rising rates of heart disease, arthritis, and other inflammatory “diseases of aging”?

Edited by Skotkonung, 19 April 2009 - 01:29 AM.

[Skötkonung]

Just how bad exogenous AGEs are is a big unknown at the moment.

Not really. And perhaps a lot of what carb consumption is blamed for is relative to life long AGEs formation. To be fair processed carbs are AGE forming and terrible too, but we are talking about a major gap between white flour and, say, lentils. Explain how low GI legumes and grains cause advanced glycation end products.

"Vegetarians consume less proteins and saccharides. Lysine intake is significantly reduced (low content in plant proteins). Subjects on alternative nutrition do not use high temperature for culinary treatment and consume low amount of technologically processed food. Fructation induced AGE fluorescence is greater as compared with that induced by glucose. It is due to higher participation of a more reactive acyclic form of fructose. Intake of vegetables and fruit with predominance of fructose is significantly higher in vegetarians. Comparison of nutrition and plasma AGEs in vegetarian and omnivorous groups shows that the higher intake of fructose in alternative nutrition of healthy subjects may cause an increase of AGE levels."

Does this answer your question?

I pulled it from one of the studies in my above post.

[TheFountain]

I am convinced the Paleo diet is a lot higher in AGEs than the typical high carb vegan diet, as long as the main source of vegan carbs is not processed.

On what basis do you make this assertion?

Vegan and vegetarian diets contain fewer anti-glycation compounds such as carnosine, B vitamins, and lipoic acid as they are derived primarily from meat.

Studies on AGEs and diet seem to show similar findings:

Advanced glycation end products and nutrition
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12234125

Plasma levels of advanced glycation end products in healthy, long-term vegetarians and subjects on a western mixed diet
http://cat.inist.fr/...cpsidt=14158061

These were the first two studies that came up searching on Google. Vegetarians show higher circulating levels of AGEs over a normal American diet. Furthermore, I don't believe there is a campaign of disinformation by people touting low carbohydrate diets or paleo diets. Currently, the majority opinion in the nutritional science world is that fat is bad and carbohydrates are good. If anything, there is a campaign of disinformation about the benefits of carbohydrates.

Dr Eades recently did a post on the subject of nutritional disinformation and the epidemic of obesity:
http://www.proteinpo...ic-environment/

In his article, he analyzed the latest NHANES data, which shows that the average American consumes about 250 calories more per day. NHANES data also confirms that this 250 calorie increase comes from carbohydrates.

Finally, and most importantly, regarding the Paleo attitude on carbohydrates and AGEs, I urge you to read the following:
http://lifespotlight...n-end-products/

I see no disinformation. They stick to the facts. Quotes from above link:

What Are AGEs?
AGEs are the end-products of glycation reactions, in which a sugar molecule bonds to either a protein or lipid molecule without an enzyme to control the reaction. A similar reaction, known as glycosylation, uses an enzyme to control the reaction, targeting specific receptor sites on cells. Glycation, on the other hand, “is a haphazard process that impairs the functioning of biomolecules”.

Where Do AGEs Come From?
Advanced Glycation End products can come from two sources: the food we eat and internal production in the body. Let’s look at each of them.

AGE Formation In Food
When proteins are cooked with sugars in the absense of water, AGEs are formed. Water, however, prevents these sugars from binding to the protein molecules. Now, I know what you’re thinking when you hear the word “protein”: flesh. I was too, until I got to reading. However, grains, vegetables, fruits, and such all have protein in them as well, with browning being an indication of AGEs: According to these new findings, brown foods, such as brown cookies, brown bread crust, brown basted meats and brown beans, and even brown coffee beans may increase nerve damage, particularly in diabetics who are unusually susceptible to nerve damage. These are the very reactions that give certain foods their flavors after cooking. Food-borne AGEs are absorbed with about 30% efficiency when ingested.

AGE Formation In The Body
Once you’ve eaten, the body can still glycate the simple sugars in your food. A small proportion of the sugar in your bloodstream is glycated, while the rest goes to running your metabolic machinery. Consider what happens in the bloodstream of a diabetic with chronically elevated blood sugar. There are many opportunities for this circulating sugar to be glycated, which helps explain why diabetics have such high incidences of the issues discussed in the next section. Fructose and galactose undergo glycation at about 10 times the rate as does glucose. Considering the dramatic increase in sugar consumption over the past several decades, and the subsequent increase in fructose consumption (recall that most sweeteners are approximately 50% fructose), is there any question why we’re seeing rising rates of heart disease, arthritis, and other inflammatory “diseases of aging”?

Any time there is a study on the benefits of a non-paleo diet, people like you are quick to point out the flaws in such studies, such as the fact that they do not take other lifestyle aspects into account. But you make absolutely no mention of the flaws contained in the above studies, which do not account for the KIND of carbohydrates consumed on a daily basis, the origin of said carbohydrate consumption and the food preparation methods of said food involved in the studies. Is there a study on the circulating AGEs in okinawans? On raw foodists? On 100% organic vegans? I doubt it. Then there was this:

(NOTE: Point being there are plenty of 'studies' on this that can be turned right around to show the opposite.)

'High-fat diet enhances visceral advanced glycation end products, nuclear O-Glc-Nac modification, p38 mitogen- activated protein kinase activation andapoptosis
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
LI S.-Y. ; LIU Y. ; SIGMON V. K. ; MCCORT A. ; REN J. ;
Résumé / Abstract
High-fat diet intake often leads to obesity, insulin resistance and hypertension, which present a common and detrimental health problem. However, precise mechanism underlying tissue damage due to high-fat diet-induced obesity has not been carefully elucidated. The present study was designed to examine the effect of high-fat diet intake on visceral advanced glycation end products (AGEs) formation, nuclear O-Glc-NAc modification and apoptosis in heart, liver and kidney. Adult male Sprague-Dawley weight-matched rats were fed for 12 weeks with a high-fat diet (45% kcal from fat) or an isocaloric low-fat diet (10% kcal from fat). High-fat diet feeding significantly elevated body weight. Blood pressure and heart rate were comparable between the two rat groups. Competitive enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay showed significantly elevated serum AGE levels, visceral AGE formation, caspase-3 activation and cytoplasmic DNA fragmentation in heart and liver but not kidney samples of high-fat diet fed rats compared with those from low-fat diet fed group. Western blot analysis further revealed that high-fat diet feeding induced overt nuclear O-Glc-NAc modification and p38 mitogen-activated protein kinase activation in heart and liver although not in kidney samples of the high-fat diet-fed rats. Collectively, our results indicated that high-fat diet intake is associated with obesity accompanied by elevated serum and visceral AGEs, visceral post-translational nuclear O-Glc-NAcylated modification and apoptosis, which may contribute to high-fat diet-induced tissue damage.'



EDIT: 'vegetarian' can mean anything. it can mean a person who just doesn't eat meat, doesn't necessarily mean they eat healthily or healthily prepared foods. For this I proclaim the study the other poster pointed to was more than likely not taking other life-style variables into account.

Edited by TheFountain, 19 April 2009 - 02:08 AM.

[Skötkonung]

I never claimed the paleo diet, with its high levels of fats and cooked meats, had very little AGE formation. To my knowledge, no one here has said that. The argument against what paleo dieters assume is excessive amounts of carbs is multifaceted and not based on the formation of AGEs. Most foods contain AGEs, even raw fruits and vegetables (see above studies for clarification). The point I was trying to make by showing both of those studies is that vegetables and fruits, even in their raw form, cause AGEs. Arguably, the method in which they produce AGEs endogenously exceeds that of meats or fats. The study you showed above is not comparative, it only demonstrates that some fats contain AGEs...so I don't understand what you mean by showing the opposite. You might also look at homocysteine in vegetarians, it is also higher. Since the paleo diet contains both meat and raw produce, it is likely that AGEs are formed when eating paleo type foods. This just goes to show that the only way to truely prevent AGEs is to take anti glycation supplements (especially if you eat little to no meat), cook food at a lower temperature (avoid browning), and eat less food generally (calorie restriction). Furthermore, AGE formation doesn't necessarily imply health problems as vegetarians tend to have less incidence of heart disease, etc when compared to the average American, even if their biomarkers don't always show it in some studies. Perhaps there is more to the role of AGEs than we know?

Effect of Vegetarian Diet on Homocysteine Levels
http://content.karge...e.asp?Doi=57644

Edited by Skotkonung, 19 April 2009 - 07:06 AM.

[TheFountain]

I never claimed the paleo diet, with its high levels of fats and cooked meats, had very little AGE formation. To my knowledge, no one here has said that. The argument against what paleo dieters assume is excessive amounts of carbs is multifaceted and not based on the formation of AGEs. Most foods contain AGEs, even raw fruits and vegetables (see above studies for clarification). The point I was trying to make by showing both of those studies is that vegetables and fruits, even in their raw form, cause AGEs. Arguably, the method in which they produce AGEs endogenously exceeds that of meats or fats. The study you showed above is not comparative, it only demonstrates that some fats contain AGEs...so I don't understand what you mean by showing the opposite. You might also look at homocysteine in vegetarians, it is also higher. Since the paleo diet contains both meat and raw produce, it is likely that AGEs are formed when eating paleo type foods. This just goes to show that the only way to truely prevent AGEs is to take anti glycation supplements (especially if you eat little to no meat), cook food at a lower temperature (avoid browning), and eat less food generally (calorie restriction). Furthermore, AGE formation doesn't necessarily imply health problems as vegetarians tend to have less incidence of heart disease, etc when compared to the average American, even if their biomarkers don't always show it in some studies. Perhaps there is more to the role of AGEs than we know?

Effect of Vegetarian Diet on Homocysteine Levels
http://content.karge...e.asp?Doi=57644

See the problem I have with peoples use of the term 'vegetarian' is that it doesn't take the wide variability of this life-style choice and dietary diversity into account. Like I said 'vegetarian' can mean many things, it can mean someone who eats nothing but twinkies all day, or it could mean a strict raw foodist. Until studies using the latter and those eating all organic foods and well and healthily prepared foods is conducted, as well as taking other life-style variables into account, I think we cannot rely on the outcome, especially when it comes to AGEs formation. I really doubt that raw foodists have anywhere near the AGEs levels of paleo dieters and meat eaters in general.

Edited by TheFountain, 19 April 2009 - 07:12 AM.

[Skötkonung]

See the problem I have with peoples use of the term 'vegetarian' is that it doesn't take the wide variability of this life-style choice and dietary diversity into account. Like I said 'vegetarian' can mean many things, it can mean someone who eats nothing but twinkies all day, or it could mean a strict raw foodist. Until studies using the latter and those eating all organic foods and well and healthily prepared foods is conducted, as well as taking other life-style variables into account, I think we cannot rely on the outcome, especially when it comes to AGEs formation. I really doubt that raw foodists have anywhere near the AGEs levels of paleo dieters and meat eaters in general.

I attached one of the studies above (Advanced glycation end products and nutrition) for you to review.
 krajcovic.pdf   71.85KB   49 downloads

In the study, they specify what types of foods the subjects were eating:

Comparison of nutrition and plasma AGEs in vegetarian and omnivorous groups shows that the higher intake of fructose in alternative nutrition of
healthy subjects may cause an increase of AGE levels.

...

Group characteristic, levels of Nε-carboxymethyllysine, values of fluorescent AGEs, intake of proteins, lysine, saccharides and intake of fruit and vegetables with higher fructose content as compared to glucose content.

Foods eaten by the subjects include apples, pears, fresh citrus fruit, berries, melons, beats, sweet potatoes, corn, carrots, and onions. Fructose, when cooked, forms mallard chain reactions that cause AGEs. Like paleo dieters and people on a traditional Western diet, raw foodists consume these same foods albeit uncooked. The big difference is that they don't usually (unless otherwise supplementing) have the AGE mitigating compounds found in animal products (carnosine, lipoic acid, specific B vitamines, taurine). Furthermore, since they eat more of these types of foods, they also are consuming higher levels of fructose. The same goes for vegetarians.

An alternative or additional possibility is that the relatively poor taurine status of vegetarians up-regulates the physiological role of myeloperoxidase-derived oxidants in the generation of AGEs – in which case, taurine supplementation might be expected to suppress elevated AGE production in vegetarians. Thus, a taurine supplemented low-fat vegan diet may be recommended as a strategy for minimizing AGE-mediated complications in diabetics and in patients with renal failure.
http://www.journals....002749/abstract

What I would like to see is whether raw foodists suffer the same nutritional deficiencies and dietary patterns that cause higher AGEs in vegetarians. I have yet to see any evidence to show that they don't unless all raw foodists consciously restrict fructose containing fruits and vegetables. While cooking does cause the formation of AGEs, it appears endogenously produced AGEs are a greater danger due to increased conversion rate over absorption rate. Interestingly, sugar (~50% fructose) intake corresponds not only to weight gain and obesity in terms of increased carbohydrate intake (NHANES data) but also to incidence of AGE related diseases (heart disease, arthritis, etc).

Sure a vegan or raw foodist could supplement with glycation inhibitors and lower their production of AGEs, but whats from stopping a paleo dieter from doing the same thing and reducing their AGEs even further?

EDIT
You might also consider the following study:

Cooking as a Biological Trait
 Wrangham_Conklin_Britain2003CBP_Cooking_as_a_Biological_Trait.pdf   143.15KB   38 downloads

When you consider the role of meat intake and cooking on human evolution, it makes sense that our bodies require essential compounds from animal products to help inhibit the production of AGEs.

Edited by Skotkonung, 21 April 2009 - 01:00 AM.