45 replies to this topic

[cyborgdreamer]

I hate the human condition so much it hurts! I'm sick of being just another piece of matter for the universe to step on; a thing that can suffer and die and be trapped by the suffocating limitations of the human mind and body. It makes me want to throw up. Against all reason, I still hope that I'll wake up from this nightmare because I just can't fathom a world this horrible. But every time I open my eyes it's still here; a world where death exists. How can the universe limit thinking, feeling beings the same as mindless chunks of matter? How can it create life just to destroy it? How can anything be so evil, so twisted, so ruthlessly indifferent?!

Edited by cyborgdreamer, 20 April 2009 - 03:15 AM.

[Luna]

:X.. I know it won't make you feel better but..
The universe isn't doing anything, it's not even conscious..
That's why many people go for religion, to avoid the thought there is no order around us and not to believe we're just some random matter..

But hang on! we might still get there
And don't think about it too much if you can't do anything about it personally.
Be with your friends, talk about it if you can so you will feel a bit better and once you do, try to have some fun

Then one day you might be able to do something significant to help getting there.. and even if not, you won't worry so much and when we are there, you'll have a big smile on your face! :O)

[forever freedom]

It's revolting indeed when you think about it. I deal with it by not thinking much about the "injustice" of it all, and moving on with my goals and my busy life. It's the best we can do.

[brokenportal]

I hate the human condition so much it hurts! I'm sick of being just another piece of matter for the universe to step on; a thing that can suffer and die and be trapped by the suffocating limitations of the human mind and body. It makes me want to throw up. Against all reason, I still hope that I'll wake up from this nightmare because I just can't fathom a world this horrible. But every time I open my eyes it's still here; a world where death exists. How can the universe limit thinking, feeling beings the same as mindless chunks of matter? How can it create life just to destroy it? How can anything be so evil, so twisted, so ruthlessly indifferent?!

Now your talking, thats the spirit. It is rediculous. I dont care if its the case, I dont care if a magical genius beautiful fairy god mother says it has to be that way. It horrible. Its not right. "Do some stuff and enjoy it, then close your chapter because its a nice tidy story." Thats just oozing with fallacy. Its twisted.

It makes me want to throw up too, literally, almost every day it gets to that point, where my stomach feel quesy. Thats a good thing though, and its a good thing for you to have too. Keep your blood boiling. Keep your drive burning. Keep your soul stirring. A half heart can only go half the distance.

Join a project, champion a project, maneuver your life to be able to do more and more for the cause, until your doing as much as you possibly can, then figure out ways to give more and be more efficient from there. We can do this, we can change this and the more drive like yours we can funnel into the cause the better.

As for projects theres all of LEEEP to choose from, theres this topic to get into action with, there is the imminst action, project ideas section, there is the longevity meme take action section, theres SENS student research program, teme agi undergrad fund, heales concert, conferences, spread the word in general, join a meeting, suggest an idea, attend the life extension rally point ever day, theres a lot of ways to fight the reaper, and more constantly coming in and on the way, like chapters, a simple volunteer task page, more research, down the road there will probably be a tour bus, billboards, news stories, maybe a show, more documentaries, etc... etc... etc... Your help today inspires more. This progress accellerates. You know, one person tells 2, 2 tell 4, 4 tell 8, etc... if you double it every day for a month you get billions. Your help today is invaluable to the cause. The cause needs you, the world needs you. Do all you can today. Use that drive. Committ to the cause 100%. The world needs you like theres no tomorrow.

Edited by brokenportal, 20 April 2009 - 04:04 AM.

[DJS]

Regarding a valuation of our current human condition, I am ambivalent. Naturally it leaves a lot to be desired yet, at the same time, never has there been more at stake. And it is in my nature to love a good fight.

In contrast to someone like a de Grey, I share the yearnings and vision of transhumanism. Indefinite extension of lifespan is only a necessary 'taking-off-point' for me (Note: I don't drink the insane and counterproductive Kurzweilian Kool-Aid).

[TheFountain]

:X.. I know it won't make you feel better but..
The universe isn't doing anything, it's not even conscious..

Wrong. We are conscious, we are of the universe. Every entity is conscious on some level or another, even one we might refer to as 'unconsciousness'. Thus the universe is manifesting consciousness through the various species, thus becoming more aware of itself. This very conversation we are having consists of two separate aspects of the universe relfecting on itself and becoming more aware. Therein lies the answer.

Edited by TheFountain, 21 April 2009 - 01:57 AM.

[abolitionist]

:X.. I know it won't make you feel better but..
The universe isn't doing anything, it's not even conscious..

Wrong. We are conscious, we are of the universe. Every entity is conscious on some level or another, even one we might refer to as 'unconsciousness'. Thus the universe is manifesting consciousness through the various species, thus becoming more aware of itself. This very conversation we are having consists of two separate aspects of the universe relfecting on itself and becoming more aware. Therein lies the answer.

how can you prove that the universe is conscious?

there's no reason to think that stars and rocks are aware of themselves or other objects

Edited by abolitionist, 21 April 2009 - 03:20 AM.

[abolitionist]

genes are the key to changing the human condition, even lifelong immersive AI would be limited in efficacy by genetics

the root of all suffering and experience is found in the DNA

In our lifetimes, I believe it's likely that we'll gain the power to significantly alter our own DNA in order to live longer and happier lives

Edited by abolitionist, 21 April 2009 - 03:26 AM.

[Cyberbrain]

I hate the human condition so much it hurts! I'm sick of being just another piece of matter for the universe to step on; a thing that can suffer and die and be trapped by the suffocating limitations of the human mind and body. It makes me want to throw up. Against all reason, I still hope that I'll wake up from this nightmare because I just can't fathom a world this horrible. But every time I open my eyes it's still here; a world where death exists. How can the universe limit thinking, feeling beings the same as mindless chunks of matter? How can it create life just to destroy it? How can anything be so evil, so twisted, so ruthlessly indifferent?!

We all feel your pain cyborgdreamer!

Death and suffering is an ugly attribute of life. A fault that must be corrected as soon as possible.

Rants like this are a good way to relieve yourself, but like BP said it's also good to get the blood pumping once in a while ... to remind yourself that you're alive ... that life is so fragile and beautiful.

I try not to think about it, keeping myself preoccupied with my college studies. But it does get us sometimes and once in a while I too have these small existential anxiety attacks.

There are three places that you can put your hopes in as you know:

1) Cryonics
2) Biogerontechnology (life extension, SENS, etc)
3) Cybernetic technology (singularity, mind computer interfacing, etc)

If one doesn't work to end death the other is bound to.

[TheFountain]

:X.. I know it won't make you feel better but..
The universe isn't doing anything, it's not even conscious..

Wrong. We are conscious, we are of the universe. Every entity is conscious on some level or another, even one we might refer to as 'unconsciousness'. Thus the universe is manifesting consciousness through the various species, thus becoming more aware of itself. This very conversation we are having consists of two separate aspects of the universe relfecting on itself and becoming more aware. Therein lies the answer.

how can you prove that the universe is conscious?

there's no reason to think that stars and rocks are aware of themselves or other objects

You are conscious, are you not? What is your origin? This universe or another? What are you made of, matter of this universe, or some extraneous substance from another dimension? What is your mind derivative of, this universe or another, unknown variable?

[Luna]

You came from your mother,
you are not your mother
Your logic is weird ^^

[TheFountain]

You came from your mother,
you are not your mother
Your logic is weird ^^

Our mothers are just another turn in the spiraling helix of universal creation. A host, a portal, a membrane. It's all just the universe made manifest. Of course, I never implied I was the very same aspect of the universe as you, or our mothers, but I guess you missed the point that all these aspects make up the whole, conscious and unconscious thing we call the universe. We are no more separate from the universe than we are from our own blood. We are the eyes of the universe. Does that sum it up more clearly?

Edited by TheFountain, 21 April 2009 - 10:46 AM.

[Luna]

You came from your mother,
you are not your mother
Your logic is weird ^^

Our mothers are just another turn in the spiraling helix of universal creation. A host, a portal, a membrane. It's all just the universe made manifest. Of course, I never implied I was the very same aspect of the universe as you, or our mothers, but I guess you missed the point that all these aspects make up the whole, conscious and unconscious thing we call the universe. We are no more separate from the universe than we are from our own blood. We are the eyes of the universe. Does that sum it up more clearly?

yes but I knew that already.
We are not the universe, we are part of it.
The universe is not conscious, we are, the universe is not us, we are just part of it.

[Cyberbrain]

You came from your mother,
you are not your mother
Your logic is weird ^^

Our mothers are just another turn in the spiraling helix of universal creation. A host, a portal, a membrane. It's all just the universe made manifest. Of course, I never implied I was the very same aspect of the universe as you, or our mothers, but I guess you missed the point that all these aspects make up the whole, conscious and unconscious thing we call the universe. We are no more separate from the universe than we are from our own blood. We are the eyes of the universe. Does that sum it up more clearly?

yes but I knew that already.
We are not the universe, we are part of it.
The universe is not conscious, we are, the universe is not us, we are just part of it.

Couldn't have put it better. We are part of the universe, we are not the entire embodiment of it. We could be viewed as nature becoming aware of itself, but that wont make too much sense since we can not control everything omnipresently.

[Ben Simon]

I too suffer from anxiety about these kinds of existential concerns. But aging is the be all and end all of suck. I could take the rest if we could just fix frickin' aging.

Even when I console myself with the thought that our generation is better positioned than anyone else in history to beat this thing, I am still absolutely mortified by the realization that I will have to wait at least thirty years for aging to be defeated - if I'm lucky. That may not seem like so long in the scheme of things... but it's still thirty frickin' years in which I'm going to have to suffer the ever worsening indignation of an advancing degenerative disease. It's like being a kid and waiting for Christmas, except the present under the tree is the cure for an otherwise fatal illness and Christmas is thirty years away, and may not come at all.

And really, it's that simple. Aging is a degenerative disease. And once you've accepted that fact, then an at one time inoffensive idea like "middle age" suddenly becomes an advanced stage of that disease - and something to be desperately avoided. Because people in middle age aren't "middle aged" at all - not in the way I once thought they were. They're just really sick twenty year olds. And I don't want to be a sick twenty year old. I don't want to be a twenty year old with aching joints, weakened muscles, sagging wrinkled skin, grey hair, diminished vision and cancer of the bowel. I won't want it in thirty years any more than I wanted it when I was chronologically twenty! And yet it has to happen to me before the cure will ever come. ...And I hate that.

Because aging doesn't just kill you - it robs you of your whole identity, grinds you into the dirt over a period of decades, and then it kills you. ...That's cruelty. I'm twenty six, and already its written on my face. Yep, like it or not - this IS happening. ...To me. ...Now. And I can't do jack but live with it till that day comes. I guess I'll try to enjoy the ride.

Urgh...

...It sucks.

...I feel your pain is what I'm trying to say.

Edited by ben, 21 April 2009 - 02:59 PM.

[brokenportal]

:X.. I know it won't make you feel better but..
The universe isn't doing anything, it's not even conscious..

Wrong. We are conscious, we are of the universe. Every entity is conscious on some level or another, even one we might refer to as 'unconsciousness'. Thus the universe is manifesting consciousness through the various species, thus becoming more aware of itself. This very conversation we are having consists of two separate aspects of the universe relfecting on itself and becoming more aware. Therein lies the answer.

Exactly, we are the universes eyes. We are the universe examining itself. I wouldnt say "wrong" though. I would say true, parts of it are unconcious, kind of like how parts of our bodies are unconcious, but the some parts of us sense. Existence has sprouted windows for itself through which it can see into itself.

The fact that the universe has sensing abilities though is great. That means it can do something about things. We can do something about our condition. We have the tools to make it how we want it to be. Anything less than 100% drive to do that is selling all of humanity, sentient kind and the universe short. I mean, for one out of infinite examples, imagine if there are other beings out there. We owe it to them to find them, if we dont it would be tragic of the uttmost magnitude.

[Mixter]

I hate the human condition so much it hurts!

Part of the human condition is subjectivity. And subject to constant change, at least potentially. We need to think stragegically in order to optimize our health and life, not 'listen to our heart' since our biology and instincts do not default to things in our best interest. Mood is just a parameter you can change if needed, e.g. increase serotonergics, enjoy nature, make a holiday, but most importantly focus your thought and attention on things that are more constructive. Every intelligent person could theoretically chose to feel miserable just by focusing on his vulnerability and mortality, otoh. you can focus on strategically optimizing your life, while at the same time just enjoying the many 'simple' things, from being healthy to nature to a thousand other things... so cheer up and relax and whenever you really can't, use the time to optimize your life and goals...

Also, nobody wants to age but right now we do... but just like we can't circumvent going to school or working for a livelihood. As long as we're alive and not chronically ill and technology keeps on progressing things are as good as they can be. Also, make sure to think of people like The First Immortal some times, as long as you're alive and thinking and in the 21st century, it is not over.

Btw, to actually answer the philosophical question:

How can the universe limit thinking, feeling beings the same as mindless chunks of matter?

If the next thing that came after chimpanzees were highly powerful, non-aging god-like creatures, but with an attitude like that of cavemen, Ulysses, Attila the Hun, Caesar, GWBush and the other bunch of ..."early" human specimen, then yeah, they would exist, but not for a long time Kinda like a biological antrophic principle. We need to grow up before getting much more power. The current trends in longevity are a good, gentle start, given longevity escape velocity and a good compromise between power and preventing self-destruction of humanity in the "maturation phase".

Edited by brokenportal, 21 April 2009 - 07:26 PM.

[brokenportal]

cheer up and relax and whenever you really can't, use the time to optimize your life and goals...

I would add to that, cheer up and relax yes, about the good things in life and cheer up about your anger. Be happy that your angry. Hope that you become more angry and harness that drive into fighting aging. Its a fulfilling challenge.

[cyborgdreamer]

Thanks for understanding, everyone. I still hate the human condition (and I always will unless/until we eliminate involuntary death, suffering, and limitation). But it's nice to know there are other people who won't just plug their ears and pretend it's okay.

[cyborgdreamer]

How can the universe limit thinking, feeling beings the same as mindless chunks of matter?

If the next thing that came after chimpanzees were highly powerful, non-aging god-like creatures, but with an attitude like that of cavemen, Ulysses, Attila the Hun, Caesar, GWBush and the other bunch of ..."early" human specimen, then yeah, they would exist, but not for a long time Kinda like a biological antrophic principle. We need to grow up before getting much more power. The current trends in longevity are a good, gentle start, given longevity escape velocity and a good compromise between power and preventing self-destruction of humanity in the "maturation phase".

If those god-like cave men were literally immortal, the human race couldn't self-destruct. (And if they weren't immortal, what would be the point?) When I say we shouldn't have limitations, what I mean is that we shouldn't have limitations with respect to our own lives. Of course we shouldn't have the power to hurt and kill each other (although we do, because the human body is a fragile piece of matter).

[abolitionist]

Thanks for understanding, everyone. I still hate the human condition (and I always will unless/until we eliminate involuntary death, suffering, and limitation). But it's nice to know there are other people who won't just plug their ears and pretend it's okay.

We'll never give up

we'll rewrite our genes, develop immersive AI, develope nanotech longevity treatments, freeze ourselves when necessary temporarily, etc..

someday, just hang on as long as you can

[DJS]

Excellent post by mixter. I agree totally.

[lunarsolarpower]

We need to grow up before getting much more power. The current trends in longevity are a good, gentle start, given longevity escape velocity and a good compromise between power and preventing self-destruction of humanity in the "maturation phase".

So what you're saying is that we need to uplift ourselves? The process is well underway although far from completion. In class today the presenter talked about how in 1972 in the United States someone could be summarily fired for coming to work in a wheelchair in spite of the wheelchair's total lack of impediment to their work. When I heard this I began to make the connection that "politically correct" is basically a synonym of "nice" as the antonym of mean. Can the world continue to become a nicer place as we confront limited resources and economic cycles that challenge the standard of living of vast numbers? It's hard to say but over the long term I'm optimistic.

[TheFountain]

You came from your mother,
you are not your mother
Your logic is weird ^^

Our mothers are just another turn in the spiraling helix of universal creation. A host, a portal, a membrane. It's all just the universe made manifest. Of course, I never implied I was the very same aspect of the universe as you, or our mothers, but I guess you missed the point that all these aspects make up the whole, conscious and unconscious thing we call the universe. We are no more separate from the universe than we are from our own blood. We are the eyes of the universe. Does that sum it up more clearly?

yes but I knew that already.
We are not the universe, we are part of it.
The universe is not conscious, we are, the universe is not us, we are just part of it.

There is no separation between us and the universe was my point. Hence we are an ASPECT of the universe, just like everything else in creation is an ASPECT of it. We imply separation where none exists. That is why your logic cannot penetrate into a lack thereof. Ego!

[TheFountain]

You came from your mother,
you are not your mother
Your logic is weird ^^

Our mothers are just another turn in the spiraling helix of universal creation. A host, a portal, a membrane. It's all just the universe made manifest. Of course, I never implied I was the very same aspect of the universe as you, or our mothers, but I guess you missed the point that all these aspects make up the whole, conscious and unconscious thing we call the universe. We are no more separate from the universe than we are from our own blood. We are the eyes of the universe. Does that sum it up more clearly?

yes but I knew that already.
We are not the universe, we are part of it.
The universe is not conscious, we are, the universe is not us, we are just part of it.

Couldn't have put it better. We are part of the universe, we are not the entire embodiment of it. We could be viewed as nature becoming aware of itself, but that wont make too much sense since we can not control everything omnipresently.

Neither can nature control anything omnipresently. It just is what it is, just as we are what we are. This is really a no-brainer, I am rather disappointed with you highly trained intellects for not seeing it.

[TheFountain]

Okay, what I meant by my last post, in relation to the statement that we are the universe made manifest, is that all things in creation represent a reflective aspect of the whole of creation and when you put certain aspects together you end up with a clearer reflection, as when alchemists would experiment and come up with potions and elixirs that helped them along (at least in their psychological conditions). Of course, sometimes the recombination of elements can cause more initial haze than lucidity (but we might say that we are not seeing it properly as well) but the pursuit of truth can only come in cooperating with contradictory aspects. The truth is neither black nor white but both and yet the grey that results.

'The human condition' is very much controlled by a couple of disparate elements at this time in history. Reality, or what we define as such, is the outcome of this attempt at control. Now each conscious being has the opportunity to contribute to reality in a way that has not thitherto been attempted, thus altering, or even better, expanding said reality into a more prominent thing than it was up till the point of intervention. If you are complaining about the reality you are trapped within, but doing nothing to alter or contribute to it positively, you are useless. It is alright to be a misanthrope, but be a productive one. Talk about what is better than the current mold (and how we can get there), instead of premeditating on the limits set forth by it.

Edited by TheFountain, 22 April 2009 - 08:18 AM.

[Connor MacLeod]

How can it create life just to destroy it? How can anything be so evil, so twisted, so ruthlessly indifferent?!

Life goes on, but individuals come and go. C'est la vie.

The rivers are full of crocodile nasties
and He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns ---
the King on His sunset lies waiting for dawn
to light up His Jungle
as the play is resumed.
The monkeys seem willing to strike up the tune.

-- Bungle in the Jungle, Jethro Tull

[brokenportal]

If those god-like cave men were literally immortal, the human race couldn't self-destruct. (And if they weren't immortal, what would be the point?)

Hmm, good point. Maybe humanity never would have held on this long if they hadnt used religion to pretend they were immortal. Maybe the entire drive of the human race to continue on has been to be able to live indefinitely. Well, I think that most of us have already thought of that in some perspective, but this perspective kind of reaffirms that hunch.

DNA is looking for the tools neccessary to sustain itself indefinitely.

That last statement seems to be true in some way shape of form, and if it is then of course Im not sure why.

I cringe when people assert flippant possibilities as being anything close to true, so to be clear, the following is just a random speculation based on that - Sometimes it occurs to me that maybe an omnipotent conciousness became bored with its all knowingness and so blew itself up into peices so that it could slowly reassemble through random elements coming together, and evolution, and learning, and time and all that, to give itself something to do.

How can it create life just to destroy it? How can anything be so evil, so twisted, so ruthlessly indifferent?!

Life goes on, but individuals come and go. C'est la vie.

The rivers are full of crocodile nasties
and He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns ---
the King on His sunset lies waiting for dawn
to light up His Jungle
as the play is resumed.
The monkeys seem willing to strike up the tune.

-- Bungle in the Jungle, Jethro Tull

True, but whether we are here for 80 short blinks around the sun or indefinitely will make a big difference.

The monkeys are willing to strike up the tune because after having invented language and fire and the wheel and metal smelting and machines and technology, they are now moving on up through the transhuman era, stomping on snakes and kicking traps and snares to the side as they go.

Edited by brokenportal, 23 April 2009 - 06:03 PM.

[cyborgdreamer]

How can it create life just to destroy it? How can anything be so evil, so twisted, so ruthlessly indifferent?!

Life goes on, but individuals come and go. C'est la vie.

No offense, but this kind of argument irritates me. Stating the obvious doesn't validate death or invalidate my feelings about it.

The rivers are full of crocodile nasties
and He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns ---
the King on His sunset lies waiting for dawn
to light up His Jungle
as the play is resumed.
The monkeys seem willing to strike up the tune.

-- Bungle in the Jungle, Jethro Tull

Again, just because some poet makes light of the human condition doesn't mean that I should.

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but your post basically seems like a nice way of saying "get over it". Well, if you'd rather just get over it, good for you (you'll probably be happier for it). But, as for me, I'm not going to just tolerate the loss of my very existence. I can't, I won't, and I shouldn't have to.

[Connor MacLeod]

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but your post basically seems like a nice way of saying "get over it".

That's correct. The fact that you have the luxury of having the time to complain indicates that your lot in life probably isn't all that tough. Look at TFI; despite his rather dire situation you don't see him complaining. You're not facing anything that countless men and woman -- many, no doubt, considerably more talented, intelligent and worthy of immortality than you -- haven't also faced. Get over yourself; in the big scheme of things you are just not all that important -- none of us are.