Chat Archive: * BJKlein Official Chat Starts = Mike Lorrey
<BJKlein> Mike Lorrey joins ImmInst to discuss the Free State Project and Libertarian Issues as they relate to immortalism.
<BJKlein>
http://imminst.org/f...&f=63&t=2937&s=<BJKlein> Welcome Mike.. thanks for joining ImmInst
<Mike> Thanks for having me
<BJKlein> what got you into Libertarianism?
<Mike> Well, I grew up as a young republican
<Mike> then I read my first Heinlein novel...
<BJKlein> which one would that be?
<Mike> so that pretty much helped deprogram me from the Catholicism of my family
<BJKlein> heh
<Mike> Star Beast was the first one
<John_Ventureville> what was the plot?
<Mike> The plot was a young fellow, the great great grandson of a spacer, who had passed down this alien beast called Lummox
<hkhenson> heh. my first was when I was 8 years old, farmer in the sky.
<hkhenson> my mother read it to me.
<Mike> Lummox was really a princess in this alien race, and when she came of age, her family came looking for her
<Mike> John Thomas, the protagonist, had a girlfriend who was an emancipated child, which was a new concept for me
<Mike> And the novel told the heavy handed means by which the government tried to take Lummox away from John Thomas
<Mike> It turns out that Lummox was under the impression that her hobby was raising "John Thomases"
<Mike> and wouldn't return to her home world without him
<hkhenson> heh remember that story well.
<John_Ventureville> I have read a number of Heinlein novels but not that one
<John_Ventureville> I will have to
<Mike> It wasn't till years later that I caught the sexual undertones of 'raising john thomases'
<hkhenson> Heinlein is definately an aquired taste
<BJKlein> Have you read Ayn Rand perhaps?
<hkhenson> Perhaps somewhat like Rand
<Mike> That was one thing RAH was good at, even in his juvinile days, of hiding sexual content the censors didn't catch
<Jonesey> i've read ayn rand, seemed simplistic and provincial in the extreme.
<BJKlein> heh we think alike eh Keith
<Mike> yeah, I've read The Virtue of Selfishness, Atlas Shrugged, and The Fountainhead
<Mike> I didn't like Atlas Shrugged as much as the other two.
<BJKlein> right.. nothing much better than Fountainhead
<hkhenson> near as I can tell, for Rand to have an effect on a person you have to get it at a particular time in psychological development. Typically about 13 years old
<Mike> Ah, too late for me
<Jonesey> heinlein had grand vision but his craftsmanship of prose was not quite as grand. it's interesting to contrast his writing with those of better character developers and explorers in depth of the impact of technological development.
<D_Sade> I find that odd, as the Free-State project reminds me a lot of the community in the Colorado mountains
<D_Sade> from Atlas Shrugged
<Mike> Well, I just read "For Us, the Living", and its rather obvious that he was more focused on using characterization to get his ideas across. His characterization got better when he figured out he wanted to get paid...
<hkhenson> for his time he was about as good as they came.
<Jonesey> mike:how would you succinctly describe "libertarianism"?
<Mike> Yes, we even have a Galts Gulch Project
<D_Sade> I believe that is where a lot of the attraction is
<D_Sade> at least a palpable vision
<Mike> Libertarianism: a life philosophy which says that it is wrong to initiate violence against others for any reason.
<Jonesey> mike:so no preemptive strikes against saddam etc?
<Mike> On the contrary, my personal interpretation of what "initiate" means, and how it is applied to foreign policy, says that the war against Saddam was within the Non-initiation principle
<Mike> My opinion is of course generally controversial within the community
<BJKlein> How large has the community grown now?
<John_Ventureville> so it's ok then to strike first at someone with bad intentions toward you who you suspect to be planning harm to you
<John_Ventureville> ?
<Mike> It is my opinion that too many libertarians see the principle as a pacifist one, which it isn't
<Mike> The FSP is about 6000 members at this point.
<hkhenson> I tend toward the small l libertarians of the heinlein school
<hkhenson> space cadets
*Chubtoad* The link isn't working could you try again or copy past please?
<hkhenson> as opposed to the randroids
<Mike> With Iraq, Saddam started the war by invading Kuwait. Last years actions were just the conclusion of the original Gulf War
<Jonesey> so "libertarianism" is very poorly defined then due to the "meaning of what initiate is" debate amongst libertarians?
<John_Ventureville> *unfinished business?*
<Mike> the original Gulf War never ended, there was just a cease fire, which Saddam violated many times
<BJKlein> FSP = Free State Project
http://www.freestateproject.org<Mike> Yes, it is a serious point of contention.
<John_Ventureville> dubya's dad just did not have the cajone's to take things all the way
<John_Ventureville> truth can be stranger than fiction, the whole war & father and son president's proved that
<Mike> Well, Powell talked him out of finishing it, and Clinton didn't do squat.
<John_Ventureville> ok
<Mike> Many libertarians will say "initiate" strictly applies only to attacks directly on yourself
<Gustavo> I better get out of this chat before I lose any more friends
<Mike> Others say "your family", or "your community" or "your country"
<Jonesey> hehehe Gustavo
<BJKlein> heh.. Gustavo, politics is always a fun one
<hkhenson> in my case, libertarianism has been deeply overlayed with evolutionary psychology
<Jonesey> mike:saddam invaded kuwait, not the USA...?
<FutureQ> Is anyone at all concerned that being considered rabidly anti government might be a bad thing for cryonics and Immortalism ebdeavors, given the fact that Libertarian dreams of anarchic utopia aren't going to happen and we'll need to work WITH the present system rther than be cconsidered more Tim McVeigh typrs?
<Gustavo> sorry... I have anger management problems every time someone makes a point like "the war against addam was within the non-initiation principle"
<Jonesey> hehe Gustavo
<John_Ventureville> FutureQ, good point!
<Mike> It is my opinion that a stable libertarian society can only survive if the world is free of tyranny
<Mike> Saddam invaded Kuwait, who we had a mutual defense treaty with
<Gustavo> let's not discuss that point as we won't have time to learn about libertarianism if we get into that
<John_Ventureville> will a libertarian society be made much easier with the advent of mature nano/A.I., etc.?
<Mike> I believe it will, if it is allowed to reach the market
<Mike> The moves by the government to regulate technology is becoming ominous
<FutureQ> john in a word, yes and in another, "only" then will it.
<hkhenson> actually mike, I don't think the US had any formal relation with kuwait
<BJKlein> welcome rudi
<John_Ventureville> I am very concerned that the various gov'ts of the world in the name of "national/global security" will get a headlock on all the potentially worldchanging technologies like nano and A.I.
<BJKlein> fyi: Rudy Hoffman = Cryonics Financial Planner
<Mike> Actually, we did. in 1988 the US signed an agreement with Kuwait, underwhich Kuwaiti oil tankers were reflagged in the US and given US Navy escorts
<hkhenson> not likely john
<Gustavo> JV: but there is certainly a danger of big corporations getting a headlock on all the potentially worldchanging technologies
<John_Ventureville> Rudy, hello!!
<Gustavo> and I would rather have a democratic government than microsoft corporation controlling who does what with the technology
<FutureQ> Rudyy, ditto hello!!
<Jonesey> lucky USA that it can call on Kuwait's assistance if attacked
<cyborg01> Maybe a 'headlock' won't stop progress
<Mike> I am concerned, JV, as well. The various reports by military arms projecting 2025 defense needs describe a need to be prepared AGAINST transhuman/posthuman developments
<Gustavo> by the way: how come noone in the US government gave your rationale for war? they were all talking about WMD, uranium from niger, etc.?
<Jonesey> kuwait's gov't is quite illegitimate, speaking of tyranny. women can't vote, most people born there are not granted citizenship, basic freedoms don't exist there and so on. what is the US gov't doing signing mutual defense treaty with a gov't as repressive as that of say fidel castro, which it embargoes?
<BJKlein> Mike, what brought you into transhumanism?
<FutureQ> I have faitn in the lone open sourcer that will sneak the tech out of the lab and give it away. Once that happens Singulrity here we come.
<John_Ventureville> and when that tech gets into the hands of mean-spirited hackers, watch out!!
<Mike> Well, again, Heinlein was a big influence on me. I was also a big computer nerd from a young age, wrote a football simulator for the TI-99 in the 7th grade.
<BJKlein> Did you attend Transvision 2003 Yale per chance?
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<Mike> I eventually migrated my reading habits toward Brin, and Vinge, among others. No, I didn't make it to TV2k3...
<hkhenson> I would be interesting to see how many people were much influenced by Heinlein.
<Mike> I had found the transhumanist mail list in the early 1990's
<hkhenson> extropian mail list?
<Mike> and my first experience on the WWW, I did a web search for Rome, doing some tourism research for a friend of mine
<hkhenson> or something else?
<John_Ventureville> and became a FREQUENT contributor!
<John_Ventureville> : )
<Mike> and found Romana Machado's World Headquarters
<hkhenson> ah. I know Romana.
<Mike> from there I found the Extropy Institute website and the extropians mail list
<FutureQ> I ahven't read anyeinlien, vinge or Brin, I just started seeing trends myself and didn't even know there were people called tranhumanists and extropians until 1999.
<BJKlein> Who is Romana?
<hkhenson> among other things, the author of Stego.
<Mike> Romana is/was a programmer at Apple, who does modeling on the side. She created Stego
<hkhenson> one really bright woman.
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<Mike> She was an early soft-core porn web model
<hkhenson> not to mention one hot bodie.
<hkhenson> body
* BJKlein googles
<Jonesey> heheh bjk
<Jonesey> the things u do for science
<hkhenson> let me see if I can locate something.
<John_Ventureville> I hope Susan isn't around right now
<John_Ventureville> lol
<Jonesey> hehehe
<BJKlein> heh.. men oggle .. i google
<Jonesey> bjk stays above the fray
<BJKlein> all research i tell ya
<John_Ventureville> right.....................
<BJKlein> thus.. Mike, you know we must ask:
<BJKlein> do you think - death = oblivion?
<Mike> I have no evidence one way or the other. The Simulation Argument appeals to the catholic boy in me...
<Mike> But other than that I have no firm opinion
<BJKlein> or put another way, how long would you like to live?
<Mike> I would like to live forever, of course
* BJKlein nods
<BJKlein> and the main reason for this want is...
<BJKlein> fear of death=oblivion.. or other?
<Mike> I am pissed that we don't have aircars and colonies in space yet....
<John_Ventureville> that bothers me, too
<Mike> I am a space exploration nut
<BJKlein> hmm.. thus you wish to see this future?
<FutureQ> what's the techno geek equiv to amen?
<Mike> Yes, very much so
<BJKlein> is that the main reason for your wish to live forever?
<John_Ventureville> "Affirmative!"
<BJKlein> a desire to explore the future?
<Ge> "Return," maybe?????
<Mike> To see everything that can be seen, yes
<FutureQ> aff
<BJKlein> and then die after seeing it all?
<John_Ventureville> ?
<Mike> All what?
<BJKlein> or live on, perhaps?
<Mike> That is a pretty open ended goal, in my opinion. All covers a lot of ground
<BJKlein> implicit in the phrasing.. sorry.. see 'everthing' implies there is 'all' to see
<John_Ventureville> a part of me would like to die gloriously in some war after I have lived several millennia
<Ge> BJ you can't see it all, that's the beauty of it. Life is like Borge's infinite library.
<Ge> John, there is nothing glorious about war, I for one hope to see a world government.
* BJKlein is greatful to such infinite spans
<FutureQ> There's no glory in ny death Nohn.
<FutureQ> er John, damn typos
<John_Ventureville> I think my urge to die in a "charge of the light brigade" scenario comes from seeing too many hollywood movies and the general social programming I got from society
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<Ge> Ths society is suicidal, IMNSHO
<Mike> Yes, I'd have to say that once I've seen everything in this universe, I wish to live in any number of alternate histories
<BJKlein> we live in barbaric times, true
<John_Ventureville> America is in some ways the Rome of the modern world
<Ge> Wihtout the grandeur of the original Romans
<John_Ventureville> and I never did serve in the Legion and fight the barbarians
<Switch> LIVE FREE OR DIE!
<John_Ventureville> as our troops do now in Iraq
<Mike> ya shure ya betcha
<BJKlein> bad answer Switch
<Ge> weoll John you can sign up now for the last Rome, and fight at Babylon
<hkhenson> found the link
<hkhenson>
http://www.fqa.com/r...anapix/pix.html<BJKlein> Live Free or Keep trying untill you succeed
<Mike> One of my favorite SF writers these days is SM Stirling
<hkhenson> second pix down, the fem on the right side is my daughter Gale.
<Mike> My motto on the FSP Forum is "Live Free and Never Die"
<Switch> Bj, I think the point of the saying is that you'll die if you don't 'live free'
<John_Ventureville> actually the last "Rome" may be the "Celestial Kingdom" of China in let's say thirty or forty years
* BJKlein nods to Switch
<John_Ventureville> I tend to think they have very imperial ambitions over there
<Mike> I agree with John
<Ge> BTWI tremendously admire those who are now figthing for our "empire," but I loathe human death in all its forms.
<Ge> The only thing worse than violent death is natural death.
<Mike> I forsee China being the biggest threat to Liberty in this century
<hkhenson> actually mike, I have reason to think that will not be a problem
<hkhenson> evolutionary psychology reasons
<Ge> We will be at cold war with the dragon in fifteen years.
<Mike> Really, Keith, what do you mean?
<FutureQ> I don't China is still very xeno and much influenced by the tao where one is pidgeon holed into this life with little change.
<Switch> A woory is that Islamic fundamentalism is actually quite strong in some Chinese provinces
<hkhenson> reason is the evolutionary psychology origin of wars
<hkhenson> dates back millions of years.
<hkhenson> there are two mechanisms where people go to war
<Ge> hk, and that doesn't apply in the middle kingdom??
<hkhenson> first is to be attacked.
<hkhenson> second is for there to be looming privation, downturn in the income per capita
<BJKlein> rudi, you with us man?
<Ge> hk, the 2nd case is about to happen in China. They have too many people!!!
<Mike> You are forgetting a third cause of wars
<Mike> which might be considered a form of privation
<rudi> <BJKlein> rudi, you with us man? Yep, trying to be, not sure if my postings are happening or not.
<hkhenson> they do, but they are increasing their income per capita and *are* controlling population
<rudi> Woa...that one did. Hello, better living through technology!
<Mike> China's reproduction policies are leading to a heavily male population, which IMHO will result in a significant imbalance in the yin/yang of the body politic there
<BJKlein> cool.. there ya go, welcome back Rudy Hoffman
<Ge> are they really under control, or just valiantly struggling to do so?
<hkhenson> as long as productivity growth is higher than population, a population is very unlikely to start wars
<John_Ventureville> China in twenty years will be making raids into neighboring nations to drag off their young women!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<Jonesey> bull. japan and germany started attacking their neighbors after a great expansion period, lot of which went into arms of course
<hkhenson> my bet would be that the imbalance will not cause trouble.
<John_Ventureville> a big black market will develop for certain
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<Gustavo> Keith - is it possible that a government (and not a population) starts a war?
<Jonesey> yellow market...?
<BJKlein> We're talking now with Mike Lorrey = Free State Project, Libertarian
<hkhenson> gust, a government can't do it without the support of the population.
<Ge> Gus, te people generate the government
<Mike> It is well known in defense circles that China's military policy expects a major conflict with the US within 30-50 years
<hkhenson> and they can't get it unless they are attacked.
<John_Ventureville> they want Taiwan
<BJKlein> Mike, are you signed up for cryonics, per chance?
<Gustavo> not in argentina, early 80s... but yes,we are talking with mike now
<hkhenson> mike, that's beyond the singularity.
<Jonesey> huh? china already had a major military conflict with the US. and they won.
<rudi> Hello, Mike Lorry. Do we know/have ideas on WHERE free state may be located?
<D_Sade> Unless they convince the populace that the "attack" is indirect and sublte
<John_Ventureville> Jonesy, it was a stalemate
<Gustavo> New Hampshire the website says
<Mike> Not at the moment. I had committed to joining several years ago when Sasha died, but my finances have not been stable.
<D_Sade> subtle*
<Jonesey> bush cracked me up today on meet the press, forgetting that conflict. what a moron.
<Jonesey> John_Ventureville:No, it was not. they drove the US from the yalu back to the parallel.
<BJKlein>
http://freestateproject.org<John_Ventureville> and then things stalemated
<John_Ventureville> and a treaty was eventually signed
<Ge> Gus, you mean the falklands war of 82?
<Jonesey> John_Ventureville:U ever talk to soldiers who "fought" i.e. ran, there? that was no stalemate, it was a rout.
<rudi> Thanks, will check out reference.
<MojoNorman> is there a formalized topic?
<John_Ventureville> initially it was
<Gustavo> yes, ge
<Mike> Yes, lets get to the FSP
<John_Ventureville> but South Korea would have had to be occupied by China for a true Chinese victory
<Gustavo> 5 people decided that war, the population was indifferent
<BJKlein> MojoNorman, check:
http://imminst.org/f...&f=63&t=2937&s=<D_Sade> Was the state chosen with an eye on secession?
<MojoNorman> interesting.
<MojoNorman> good evening.
<Mike> No, not on secession.
<D_Sade> Even as a remote possibility?
<Mike> NH's constitutional recognition of the right of secession and rebellion are seen as a last ditch stick
<Mike> in case the feds significantly interfere with our attempts to reassert state interposition
<BJKlein> Mike, are the 6,000 members all paid members?
<Mike> We have no dues
<Gustavo> learn from their example, BJ!
<Mike> We operate on voluntary donations at this point
<D_Sade> At least it has ocean access
* BJKlein is taking notes
<Mike> Yes, the ocean access I like because we can support oceanic sovereignty projects from there
<BJKlein> how successful has the donation drive been thus far?
<D_Sade> Most definitely
<Mike> We've collected I think somewhere between 20k-30k in the last year. Our current treasury is over $6k
<D_Sade> Have you had any support from major employers?
<Mike> These monies don't include the various projects that we raise money for on an ad hoc basis
<Gustavo> wouldn't be easier to carry out the project outside the US? I don't think the US government would allow you to go very far... what about an island in the caribbean, something like that? nice weather and easier to found your own state - or even buy an island
<D_Sade> Offering to at least open divisions there?
<John_Ventureville> why not start your own nation in the new nation on Antarctica
<hkhenson> I have been watching libertarian movements since the mid 60s.
<John_Ventureville> ??
<Gustavo> this time we agree JV - except I would go to the caribbean, not antarctica
<hkhenson> don't think much will come of them. but I do intend to leave soon as possible.
<John_Ventureville> lol
<John_Ventureville> gentleman.......
<Mike> Well, NH is the only state that recognises the right to secede. We feel that a proper interpretation of the US constitution would give us all the authority we need to enact a libertarian society
<hkhenson> several light years is a good distance to be away from the major governments.
<D_Sade> You have to look at something that would afford at least semi-autonomy
<D_Sade> raw materials, farmland, etc.
<Jonesey> why not just make big contributions and take over the USA congress, senate and white house? that's how special interests run the show now
<John_Ventureville> I must say realistically we should think of having our own fairly independant and self-sufficient community within the borders of the U.S.
<D_Sade> Agreed, there
<hkhenson> unfortunately it is darn cold there.
<John_Ventureville> a community for cryonicists and transhumanists
<John_Ventureville> : )
<D_Sade> So energy companies should be first priority
<Mike> And given that the best 'build and island' project to date got forcibly taken over by Tonga, the risks aren't good in that arena
<John_Ventureville> and Arizona would be a great location!
<D_Sade> too many people
<D_Sade> to influence the politics
<John_Ventureville> Arizona has great rural areas
<D_Sade> But to be able to influence state politics
<John_Ventureville> Tonga actually has sort of a "space program"
<Mike> When we formed the FSP, we made a list of all US states with less than 1.5 million population. We then tossed out Hawaii and Rhode Island as too statist
<D_Sade> If you formed a community that was successful, the rest of the state would just tax you
<John_Ventureville> a British entreprenaur got their king into the telecommunications business by using his sovereign status to purchase satellite rights
<hkhenson> go into space mike.
<hkhenson> and not just into space, but leave the entire solar system.
<rudi> Mike, the regulatory idiots that have been causing me huge and unwarrented hassles are the NASD and the state securities commission. Because these are Federal/State issues, how would FSP deal with Federal/State/self-regulatory bodies?
<Mike> and had an extensive period of research on every state (our archives on this area are pretty good). In the end, NH won the vote by 55% to 45% over Wyoming, the next closes competitor
<John_Ventureville> it seems to me you need to raise several million to buy some small island and then as time goes by build/expand it
<John_Ventureville> do you have a wealthy patron?
<Mike> Well, we happen to have the Governor of NH, Craig Benson, in our pocket, and we already have three members who are in the state legislature
<D_Sade> Buying an island means you are now a defenseless soverign nation
<D_Sade> and at the mercy of everyone
<John_Ventureville> create your own military!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<D_Sade> No, this is the wiser approach
<John_Ventureville> have everyone in the "national militia"
<Mike> We are already putting libertarian bills up for votes in the state legislature, including making gold and silver legal tender, adopting "Alaska Carry" CCW laws,
<John_Ventureville> armed with a hunting rifle, knife and pistol
<D_Sade> Besides, it is ours by constitutional right
<D_Sade> Mike, can you address the employment issue?
<Mike> We have a number of members who are pretty wealthy entrepreneurs. A few are moving their businesses to NH as we speak. I'm helping, for example, to move www.serve-em.com to Manchester, NH from Palm Beach
<BJKlein> official chat end in 5min.. feel 'free' to stay longer
<D_Sade> That's\ a good sign
<Mike> These member-entrepreneurs are only going to hire libertarian employees
<rudi> Whether I was part of a FSP community or not, without an NASD license I cannot sell securities legally in the US. Without a real estate license, mtg. license, etc. all state regulated, non of these activities are "legal". Does the FSP have a position on state/ federal licensing?
<Mike> THe FSP is officially not a political party. Our membership is about half libertarians, the rest are registered with other parties. We state that we want to reduce the size and scope of state government by 1/2 - 3/4
<John_Ventureville> but I still don't understand how you can have your own fully independant community while being with the boundaries of the United States? Unless you all claim to be a previously unknown tribe of American Indians who want a reservation of their own.
<John_Ventureville> *within*
<D_Sade> It's called asserting state's rights
<Mike> In New Hampshire, the land issue is unique.
<John_Ventureville> please explain
<D_Sade> Once you have the state government behind you
<Mike> For instance, Pittsburg, NH, the northern tip of the state was once an independent nation
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<John_Ventureville> just how much autonomy can you theoretically achieve?
<D_Sade> Which is why a small populated state was chosen
<Mike> for aover a dozen years
<Jonesey> heck rudi, how about driver licensing
<D_Sade> Depends how hard the Feds push back
<Mike> We want to ideally eliminate licensing of private citizens for activities which do not fall under 'interstate commerce', strictly defined.
<rudi> Yes, an obvious but overlooked state license.
* BJKlein Official Chat Ends
<D_Sade> Refreshments?
<BJKlein> hotdogs for everyone
<Mike> In Rudi's case, for instance, if he kept all his business dealings entirely within the state, not engaging with any non-residents in any transactions, then he should be able to expect the state to defend him against federal enforcement
<John_Ventureville> have some of my popcorn
<John_Ventureville> very interesting
<D_Sade> But that is just it, you will have to have businesses in all major industries
<D_Sade> in order to keep dealings within the state
<rudi> The "Servpro" people could stay busy delivering all the suppeonas sure to result in court cases to decide how much freedom is really "legal" (Irony intended.)
<Mike> This is true, and is one reason why NH turned out to be the best choice for the Free State. It has the most diverse economy of all candidates
<BJKlein> heh... interesting business plan
<D_Sade> It sure has a jump on Wyoming
<Jonesey> there are state securities licenses
<rudi> Where's my virtual hot dog? With onions and mustard, please!
<Jonesey> not just federal
<John_Ventureville> everyone can just beam over to the Creekside and I will cook up some steaks for everyone!
<John_Ventureville> : )
<Mike> Fortunately, the SCOTUS is shifting its commerce clause opinions toward a more narrow definition these days
<rudi> Please route it through my roadrunner connection, as the they never come thru the dial up connection fresh!
<BJKlein> heh, rudy.. you'll have to wait your turn..
<Jonesey> heh they are shifting their definition of vote counting to a narrow definition too, i.e. don't count em when it's inconvenient
<BJKlein> what do you think this chat is.. some free state free for all?
<Jonesey> hehehe
<Mike> We call it 'Cat herding"
<John_Ventureville> yep
<FutureQ> How will FSP handle entitlement programs such as Socil Security?
<rudi> Yes, the state must appoint you for securities sales, even after the NASD. Please don't ask my opinion of THIS particular band of NAZIS, as they are threatening to cause me great harm for NO good reason.
<Mike> Social Security is a federal program, and is outside the scope of the project
<D_Sade> Let that behemoth collapse on its own
<D_Sade> If anything, it will drive more support toward the Free State
<Mike> At the point where we dominate NH politically, we would use our position to lobby for a shift first to private investment accounts, then off the system entirely once the baby boomers die off.
<rudi> Or entitlements of virtual hot dogs. Many things are federal programs, including fed. income taxes.
<Jonesey> why has it been so hard to take over lil ole NH?
<Mike> May I ask how many people here have signed up for the FSP?
<FutureQ> And it col,apsesad one of your citizens losees his job goes bankrupt or whatever hen falls off a ladder and breaks his neck ids he sol?
<Mike> We do need enough people here to get a wedge caucus elected to the state house to really control the state.
<rudi> Could we vote without being citizens of NH?
<Jonesey> mike:I barely even know about it
<D_Sade> How much resistance do you expect?
<Mike> Vote for what? In our House elections?
<Jonesey> wont longtime residents of NH get pissed off about being overrun by newcomers?
<Jonesey> sounds like a recipe for conflict and resentment
<rudi> Reading my last question, it really sounds stupid. But, perhaps, there are many libertarian leaning folks who would like to influence policy before/without physically moving/
<D_Sade> You prefer the current climate?
<Mike> The only real resistance so far are the Democrats. The Republicans have been welcoming, the governor welcomed us and joined the project, and the NH Republican Liberty Alliance, a caucus of libertarian leaning house members, has endorsed us
<D_Sade> What's the percentage of Dems in the state?
<Mike> I will say that the NH LP just changed its bylaws so that non-residents can join and donate to the state Party. NHLP is financially independent from the national LP
<rudi> Cool to Mike's last comment!
<Mike> Dems are about 31%
<D_Sade> That's a good sign as well
<D_Sade> Do they have a website?
<D_Sade> NH LP?
<Mike>
http://www.nhlp.org<D_Sade> TY
<D_Sade> oops
<D_Sade> National Housing Law Project?
<Jonesey> where are libertarians on republican hot button issues like opposition to gay marriage, abortion, promotion of religion by the state etc?
<Mike> sorry, www.lpnh.org
<D_Sade> lol, thanks
<Mike> we oppose government regulation of marriage. Marriage licenses are a remnant of Jim Crow laws limiting interracial marriage
<Mike> libertarians are generally split on abortion, but tend to side with the mother
<John_Ventureville> how would marriage licenses be handled in a libertarian society?
<Mike> we support separation of church and state, as well as separation of school and state
<hkhenson> mike, laws on animal sex??
<hkhenson> :-)
<John_Ventureville> *for people who love their pets just a little TOO much*
<Mike> beastiality is an initiation of violence on the animal, who cannot consent
<hkhenson> :-) not in all cases.
<rudi> LOL!
<Mike> there would be no marriage licenses in a libertarian society
<D_Sade> So is eating them
<FutureQ> good point
<Jonesey> i'm impressed u could get republicans to support a group that opposes marriage while bush is looking to spend billions promoting it
<Mike> eating animals is a fact of nature. having sex with them is not. What other species has sex with a different species?
<D_Sade> While I think animals have no rights, I do not believe people have the right to wanton cruelty
<rudi> Amen to no marriage license. What consenting adults should not have to have state sanction.
<hkhenson> I remember dean edel reading a letter from a guy with a horse, female of course
<D_Sade> Well, Michael Jackson has two kids, so someone is
<Mike> ha
<hkhenson> ah mike, was just reading about that last night.
<BJKlein> yikes.. sorry for misspelling your name in the ImmInst Update Mike..
<hkhenson> chimp having sex with a baboon. who solicited it.
<BJKlein> Lorry=Lorrey
<Jonesey> mike:what other species sends robots to mars?
<Mike> The NH RLA hopes to cure us of our liberal digressions, but respects our opinions
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<Utnapishtim> Hey
<rudi> Bush wants to make a CONSTITUTIONAL amendment banning gay marriage. Is that Orwellian, or what? The document that is to protect INDIVIDUAL freedom being used to prevent adults from a basic right to contract! Outrageous!
<Utnapishtim> rudi: Georgwe Bush doesn't think conceptually
<D_Sade> The question is, what can be done about such abuses of power?
<D_Sade> hence, FSP
<Mike> Well, I have said that there is no violation of rights if everyone has the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex as everyone else.
<rudi> Yes, but what other species has to work so hard at developing a free state project?
<Mike> Its all how you define it. I just say that government has no business in marriage
<Utnapishtim> I agree entirely
<Jonesey> mike:I'm not so sure about the rights violation. it's the state promoting certain sexual arrangements over others
<John_Ventureville> one argument against gay marriage is that people will start marrying "anything" they wish, animals, inanimate objects. etc.
<Jonesey> heterosexual pairs
<D_Sade> Those items cannot enter into contracts
<Utnapishtim> I think geovernment has no bvusiness in a whole slew of areas of life they end up involved in
<Jonesey> who cares, John_Ventureville, long as those "marriages" are not state sanctioned
<Mike> Actually, in Vermont, the Civil Unions law legalizes incest
<FutureQ> So after FSP has straightened out NH, will everyone then move to MO and start there\/
<John_Ventureville> !!!
<rudi> Actually, regarding estate planning, financial planning, benefit programs, etc., there IS a big difference as to whether people are married or not.
<Mike> There are already similar projects springing up
<D_Sade> That is the problem, Rudi
<D_Sade> there shouldn't be
<Mike> There is a European Free State Project
<Mike> a Free West Project in Alberta
<Mike> and some christian fundies are, ghu help them, starting a "Christian State Project"
<John_Ventureville> will you need a secretary of state?
<rudi> Indeed. Spouses have rights/ survivors rights/ health insurance rights, etc. that others do not.
<D_Sade> Principles of freedom are universal
<D_Sade> That is what should be changed, rudi
<Utnapishtim> I do not see the rationale for the prevention of homosexual marriages
<D_Sade> then I would think the issue of gay marriage would not even be an issue
<Utnapishtim> Does it make me any les likely to marry a woman?
<John_Ventureville> what will the political structure be like of your free state?
<Utnapishtim> dwill it devalue the feelings I might have for my wife?
<rudi> Good. Let's let the christian fundies all collect themselves in an area, and stop passing laws to forcibly interfere with others.
<Mike> Neither do I, but so long as the government has its fingers stuck in it, they can define it however they want
<Jonesey> "defense of marriage..ha". how about arresting britney spears
<Mike> Rudi: why can't couples just form their families as business partnerships?
<D_Sade> agreed
<rudi> Good question, Mike. To my mind, they should be able to.
<FutureQ> I never understood why non gay men felt threatened by gay men, seems to me more women left for the non's.
<Mike> It seems to me that a gay couple could easily form their family as a business partnership, no matter what state they are in
<D_Sade> It's not just gay, btw
<D_Sade> I have a girlfriend
<D_Sade> but have no desire to get married
<Utnapishtim> Why can't we try ratipnality as thew basis for a society for a change? We have tried emotions and handwaving for the last few thousand years... Could't we give rationality just 50 or so? Just for a change....
<Mike> No, its not. Any couple should be able to, but for gays, as an alternative to getting government recognition
<rudi> But, I have a book on my bookshelf, entitled "Four Steps to Financial Security for Gay and Lesbian Couples" which outlines in great detail the multiple unique challenges of the gay union.
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<D_Sade> perhaps the details are different, but the basic principle is the same
<D_Sade> two individuals should be able to form that partnership
<D_Sade> without the gov't interfering
<John_Ventureville> the "joke" goes that marriage is such a miserable institution that why would gays want to burden themselves with it to experience the misery straight couples often experience
<rudi> For instance, your spouse may get social security, as well as private health insurance, but your business partner does not.
<Mike> Ah, true, but can't you assign a child as a survivor?
<D_Sade> Personally, I dont support Soc Sec anyway
<Mike> And frankly, if you own a business partnership, don't you avoid social security payments anyways?
<D_Sade> But the health insurance should be changed
<D_Sade> by law
<Mike> I've worked self-employed for years and never paid a dime into SS
<D_Sade> Well, that is the goal, isn't it?
<D_Sade> to eliminate it?
<rudi> As a card carrying libertarian, agnostic/athiest free thinker, and rational person, I am not saying the current status quo re: marriage laws is "right." Just that they are significant.
<D_Sade> But how do we go about changing them, then?
<Mike> A rather amusing recent event was a NH SC ruling that said that homosexual sex was not adultery. A landmark case which will be used across the country
<D_Sade> Not adultery even if one of them was married to another?
<Mike> The case was about a man who divorced his wife for having a lesbian affair
<rudi> In fact, re: this topic, the Fundies organized a boycott of Disney because Disney had the temerity to provide health coverage to gay couples.
<Mike> adultery is still a crime in NH
<John_Ventureville> is it enforced?
<D_Sade> well that law needs to go
<Utnapishtim> Rudi: I remember that
<Mike> It is enforced only as a condition of divorce with prejudice
<Jonesey> hahah
<Jonesey> lot of crooks in NH
<John_Ventureville> Simpsons tonight was great fun
<Utnapishtim> The fundies REALLY bore me... Does anyone feel that watching politics is like being a college graduate forced to sit in on junior high lessons?
<rudi> Also, Disney has a semi-official "gay days" kind of event.
<Mike> The court ruled that the historical basis of adultery in law was to protect the property rights of the man to the womans womb as a tool of bearing his heir
<Mike> and as such, any sex which could not result in conception of a child could not be considered 'adultery'
<D_Sade> I guess blowjobs and anal are ok, then
<John_Ventureville> Marge tells the story of King Henry VIII to her kids
<Anissimov> Ut: why put yourself through that, then
<rudi> I suspected Mickey was gay the first time I heard his voice. His relationship with Minnie is a sham for the fundies! LOL.
<D_Sade> Well, his "buddy" Donald doesn't wear any pants
<Utnapishtim> Donald is straight
<Mike> So, the ruling is an intentionally constructionist ruling from the SC, intending to thumb its nose at anti-gay bigots, saying they can't have their cake both ways
<John_Ventureville> I always thought Mickey was more into interracial sex....
<Utnapishtim> Now goofy I have a questionmark about...
<rudi> Interesting genesis on adultrey laws, Mike.
<Utnapishtim> I think he may well be Mickey's bitch
<John_Ventureville> no way!
<rudi> You folks are REALLY my kind of people.
<John_Ventureville> LOL
<Jonesey> hehehe
<rudi> Unfortunately, I need to go. My good wishes go with you all, and Mike, especially you and your inspiring vision.
<Jonesey> l8r rudi always a pleasure
<John_Ventureville> goodnight, Rudi
<Mike> Thanks for coming Rudi
<D_Sade> Gnight Rudi
<Utnapishtim> Take care Rudi!
<rudi> Good night, all.
<John_Ventureville> best of luck to you with your government problems
<D_Sade> So where were we?
<Mike> I'll be back in a few minutes....
<FutureQ> I gotta go also.
<Utnapishtim> uh.. adultry? The sexuality of Disney characters?
<FutureQ> l8r
<D_Sade> Night Q
<FutureQ> night all
<Jonesey> have fun in the continuum Q
<D_Sade> Well, I have been kleeping my eye on the Free State project
<FutureQ> hehe, yep
<D_Sade> Looking for that foothold
<John_Ventureville> goodnight, James
<Utnapishtim> Have you been well James?
<John_Ventureville> ?
<Jonesey> why not establish the free state in some place with no gov't right now? several such anarchistic places around the globe. NH is pretty "big gov't" compared to say some of the caucasian republics e.g. georgia
<Utnapishtim> John
<Utnapishtim> sorry typo
<John_Ventureville> newspaper headline "Libertarian Americans get Massacred in Georgia"
<John_Ventureville> : (
<Mike> I'm back
<John_Ventureville> cool
<Utnapishtim> OMAHA, Nebraska (AP) -- A prison inmate who escaped by brandishing a fake gun made of toilet paper, tape and black ink was captured four days later after a gunfight with police on a busy Omaha street.
<D_Sade> Once you establish a "free" country, you have to instantly have everything in place
<D_Sade> infrastructure
<D_Sade> DEfense
<D_Sade> a gunfight with the toilet paper roll?
<Mike> The reason we didn't look outside the US is the cost of moving 20k people there. Most people couldn't afford to move half way around the world
<John_Ventureville> I heard a story of an inmate who made a gun out of a bar of soap and colored it with charcoal dust
<D_Sade> Sounds like a Woody Allen movie
<John_Ventureville> it worked!
<John_Ventureville> Mike, so you firmly believe there are that many people who will ACTUALLY move to NH and help to create this new society?
<Mike> This is one reason why the FSP has gotten so many members and so much press: it is far more realistic than many of the other more outlandish ideas
<Mike> I am confident that we will achieve our goal
<Utnapishtim> I really have an issue with the Head of the FCC... On the week in whcih we find out that some guy in the pakistani government has been selling nuclear secrets to Libya Iran and North Korea this man ignores all that and focuses his outrage on Janet Jacksons breast
<D_Sade> The country gets worse every day, John
<D_Sade> How much will YOU take?
<John_Ventureville> I believe there is hope for this country
<John_Ventureville> there has to be if I am to make it as a cryonicist
<D_Sade> Yes...via projects such as this
<Mike> It is very much a Field of Dreams sort of project, it snow balls as we achieve more and more, more people will come
<John_Ventureville> instead of abandoning the burning house I need to help put out the fire
<D_Sade> It is not abandoning
<D_Sade> It is building a beacon
<Mike> We already have had several dozen people move, even though nobody is obligated till we reach the 20k point
<John_Ventureville> Mike, will you have ambassodors?
<John_Ventureville> a secretary of state?
<Mike> to where?
<John_Ventureville> the world!
<D_Sade> ?
<D_Sade> I think you might be confused
<Mike> Oh, well, that would only occur if we seceded
<John_Ventureville> this is all new to me
<D_Sade> Can you do a very brief outline, Mike?
<Mike> Oh, one interesting news: a town in Vermont wants to secede to NH as a result of our project...
<John_Ventureville> so you will simply be a semi-autonomous state within the U.S. legal framework
<John_Ventureville> ?
<John_Ventureville> with legal protections from the state of NH
<Mike> We would be a state that would firstly, divest a lot of its own infrastructure that is not explicitly required under the NH Constitution
<John_Ventureville> a state "within" a state
<Mike> we would then eliminate the state property tax, and several other taxes
<John_Ventureville> would you pay federal income tax?
<Mike> We currently have bills before the NH legislature:
<Mike> 1) to amend the state constitution to oulaw income tax
<John_Ventureville> can a state actually DO that?
<Mike> 2) to organize a commission to investigate the constitutionality of the federal income tax
<John_Ventureville> I envision a legal battle which costs you a fortune and does not succeed
<Mike> Well, the first bill would likely only apply to prevent any future imposition of a STATE income tax
<Mike> we do not currently have a state income tax
<John_Ventureville> good
<Mike> The second bill would conduct an investigation into a lot of the claims of tax protesters, claims which the courts routinely fine the protesters even for stating in open court.
<John_Ventureville> this could get interesting
<Mike> This would hopefully prove one or more of the claims, and cause the legislature to sue the federal government
<D_Sade> and that is where it will make or break
<John_Ventureville> you could wind up being a fairly well known special interest group surrounded by a firestorm of controversy
<Mike> The tax protest movement has failed to date because it always turns out to be cases of one guy getting squashed like a bug by government
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<Mike> In this case, we'd have the sovereign power of the State of NH behind us
<John_Ventureville> it is much harder to squash 20,000 people
<John_Ventureville> and that!
<D_Sade> You basically WOULD be the state
<D_Sade> Which are supposed to be supreme
<John_Ventureville> I hope it does not come down to the national guard or U.S. Marshals being sent in to occupy your community for "attempted tax evasion"
<Mike> They'd have to occupy the entire state
<D_Sade> You pay taxes until the case can be mounted
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<John_Ventureville> as long as your group stays levelheaded and you control any hotheads you should be ok
<Mike> At which point secession would occur
<John_Ventureville> I would hope
<D_Sade> Which is why ocean access is valuable
<D_Sade> You would still be able to trade with other countries
<D_Sade> directly
<Mike> yes, and we also have a border with Canada
<John_Ventureville> when secession occurs, the U.S. army moves in
<D_Sade> Smart choice
<Utnapishtim> Civil War II
<John_Ventureville> I don't care what your legal arguments are!
<Mike> NH is one of the most heavily armed populations in the country
<D_Sade> Why do you think Gun Control is such a hot issue?
<John_Ventureville> it would be a HORRIFIC thing to happen
<sashanic> Greetings folks.
<Mike> we have the largest gun maker here in NH
<D_Sade> Hi Sasha
<John_Ventureville> an Iraq style occupation of a U.S. state
<Mike> Yes, I do not expect the government to take it that far.
<sashanic> i'm not worthy of being called that
<D_Sade> The Federal government would have to make the case
<Mike> I expect other states to jump on the bandwagon once we've led the legal challenge
<D_Sade> They have no rational basis
<Mike> Once a number of states have stood up to the feds, the feds will back down and admit that there is no basis for charging the income tax against all Americans
<John_Ventureville> so how would the income tax laws be amended?
<Mike> Then we'd go back to the funding mechanism that existed prior to the Civil War
<sashanic> why not start over/
<Mike> The income tax laws don't need amending, that is the thing
<Mike> you only THINK you owe income taxes
<sashanic> Ever read "The Constitution of No Authority" by Lysander Spooner?
<Mike> section 681 defines who is liable for taxes, and while it is confusing, tax protesters say that it does not apply to most Americans
<John_Ventureville> the gov't is a hungry beast which wants federal income tax to feed all of its programs
<John_Ventureville> I will have to read that
<Mike> Yes, the big problem is that the federal government keeps 40% of the land off the market
<John_Ventureville> there would have to be a multi-states tax rebellion to get the federal gov't to back down
<D_Sade> What other choice is there?
<sashanic> He pointed out in the mid 1800's that nobody signed the constitution, unlike the declaration, and nothing in it bound anyone in the future/
<John_Ventureville> it does not matter who is legally right or wrong before then
<Mike> Once we lead, I feel pretty positive that a number of other libertarian leaning states will follow along
<Mike> Actually, spooner is wrong
<sashanic> something that will spontaneously emerge, that we can't predict exactly now, kind of like the web
<sashanic> how so mike/
<Mike> The Constitution is not a contract of what YOU and I agree to, it is a document that defines how the government is restrained. Because of this, where it is a document of negative rights, not positive rights, it does not require that we all sign it for it to be valid
<John_Ventureville> what is the timetable for this project?
<John_Ventureville> five years? ten?
<sashanic> well then it still does not give the government legitamacy being unilateral
<Mike> Time table is that once we reach 20,000 members, they all have 5 years to move to NH
<John_Ventureville> how many members short are you?
<Mike> We are currently at about 6000
<Mike> We project reaching 20k within 3-5 years
<sashanic> i have a complementary strategy i think of as the "free county" project
<Mike> We have one of those, and a Free Town Project
<John_Ventureville> this is all very exciting
<sashanic> mine would be a secret
<sashanic> sort of
<Mike> I just met with several FSP members of the Free Town Project
<John_Ventureville> Mike, you are a latter-day pioneer
<D_Sade> It's just the States are supposed to have ultimate authority on most things
<John_Ventureville> I wish you luck
<D_Sade> So, ir is the obvious unit
<John_Ventureville> *supposed to*
<sashanic> designed to get defacto freedom through "hogan's heroes" like, non-confrontational, discreet, jury nullification
<Mike> they are going to buy up a good sized plot of land in a town with very low population, move in enough FSP members to form a majority, and elect their own government
<sashanic> the direct approach risks backlash
<Mike> Actually, in NH it turns out that the towns have most of the power
<sashanic> guarantees it in fact
<D_Sade> Against the Feds?
<Mike> Not against the feds. You have to keep in mind that our system here in the US is a matter of overlapping sovereignties
<sashanic> theoretically
<sashanic> the civil war squashed that
<Mike> Both the states AND the federal government are sovereign, as are the people
<Mike> Within NH, the towns have most of the authority that is considered county or state power in other states
<sashanic> Are any other states like that Mike?
<Mike> Maine is somewhat like this
<sashanic> How about out west?
<John_Ventureville> Arizona?
<sashanic> More so at the county level?
<John_Ventureville> I would say so
<Mike> Out west, MT, ID, WY all have areas that are largely uninhabited which enable you to assert power simply because of the vacuum
<sashanic> I remember reading about a sherrif in Montana, I think, who wouldn't let several fed agencies mess with people in his jurisdiction
<John_Ventureville> interesting
<sashanic> which was a county
<sashanic> If this was a joke, the punchline would be . . .
<sashanic> So they shot him.
<Mike> But ultimately, no state recognises rebellion and secession like NH does, and this right here applies to towns and counties, not just the state as a whole
<sashanic> But I don't actually know what happened.
<D_Sade> I am just saying, when it comes to the major intrusive legislation
<D_Sade> ultimately it will have to be a state going up against the Fed
<Mike> I mentioned earlier that Pittsburgh, NH was the independent nation of Indian Stream in the 19th century.
<Mike> Well, here we have what is called the 'no unfunded mandates law' which says that state and federal mandates upon town and county resources cannot apply if the state and federal governments do not supply the funding for them
<D_Sade> What about "funding with conditions"?
<D_Sade> Like the Drinking Age laws?
<Mike> We tend not to like them
<D_Sade> and BAC levels?
<D_Sade> Yes, but can they be fought on that principle?
<Mike> We refused highway money because we didn't want a helmets law or a seatbelts law
<D_Sade> But you are still required to take care of the roads and highways
<Mike> Yes, we take care of them, but we do get gyped. We get less than .70 for every dollar in taxes sent to DC, which is the lowest in the country
<Mike> We enacted a DWI law in the 80's on our own, not by federal coersion
<D_Sade> I believe that this approach is how the Fed will seek to expand farther
<Mike> yes, they like to use the funding stick to get what they want when its outside their power
<D_Sade> exactly
<D_Sade> Like the new calls for Health Care
<Mike> They are trying this now with the seatbelts law
<Mike> We say "We already have 60% of the population voluntarily using their seatbelts, so we see no reason to make it a law"
<D_Sade> Yep...deny you federal dollars
<D_Sade> but still require you to spend money on highways
<D_Sade> which will now have to come from State funds
<Mike> Yes, but guess what? Turns out the feds folded on the funding threat
<D_Sade> Oh yeah?
<Mike> we still get the highway funds
<D_Sade> Good news
<sashanic> NH still hasn't legalized cannabis has it?
<Mike> No, not yet, but we have 70% public support for medical marijuana
<D_Sade> That's step one
<sashanic> and lots of guns
<sashanic> but still can't partake in public
<Mike> We do have hempfests every summer here
<sashanic> industrial hemp also is still not legal
<Mike> the local cops will arrest a couple people for the papers, then leave everybody else alone
<sashanic> if a state can't even go against the feds on such a simple issue
<Mike> industrial hemp is legal to sell here
<sashanic> not to produce though
<D_Sade> We have that battle going here in California
<D_Sade> Medical Marijuana
<D_Sade> vs the Feds
<Mike> no, not yet, but that is a matter of the Republicans in the state House, not a matter of federal threats.
<sashanic> clinton had plenty of time
<sashanic> oh sorry
<sashanic> state house
<D_Sade> I think you will get a lot of disillusioned Repubs defecting
<Mike> Yes, we will. They are already getting emboldened by our presence and are putting forward bills we have a common interest in. The only real problem here are the Democrats who are elected as Republicans
<D_Sade> snakes
<Mike> We have a ballot fusion law, which allows you to get written in on another party's ballot in the primaries, which will get you automatically on their ballot in the election if they didn't have enough candidates during the primary
<sashanic> What if people could reside or "officially" reside in a small county near a big city, and have the peace of mind to know that if they are ever charged with an unjust law, that they are very likely to get off because . . .
<D_Sade> So are you looking to send ringers into the Republican ticket?
<Mike> Yes, that is the plan, and the NH RLA has agreed to back our candidates.
<D_Sade> Great idea
<sashanic> enough other people (that they don't even know) had also moved to that area, and would practice discreet jury nullification
<D_Sade> Too unreliable
<sashanic> the reliability would be monitorable and improvable
<Mike> yes, jury nullification is another issue we intend to make headway on. We had debate on a jury nullification bill this past year, but it failed.
<D_Sade> Umenforced laws are still laws
<D_Sade> un*
<sashanic> and the cost could be very low
<sashanic> yes,
<sashanic> but this way you have defacto freedom
<D_Sade> But for how long?
<sashanic> that's why i call it the "hogan's heroes approach"
<D_Sade> while you hide and hope they dont take it away
<Mike> Well, we currently have the Governor serving jury duty. We are wondering if he is going to mention jury nullification to the rest of the jury in deliberations
<D_Sade> better to root out the problem
<sashanic> well at some point, you would have enough people to also discreetly "take over" counties without actively promoting themselves as libertarians
<D_Sade> Then you are locked into living in certain places
<D_Sade> rather than confronting the problem
<D_Sade> Face it, I love California
<sashanic> its only one idea that would help for now, for those not willing to move to immortia, or needlessly risk pain and death
<D_Sade> If it weren't fo
