15 replies to this topic

[Llama Chris]

Recently I have I heave learned a few things I didn't know, both here and from reading books and things. I am a vegan (for ethical considerations) and was always under the impression this was the best option for health as well. Eating animal products isn't an option for me, but I would like to clarify my understanding of some issues and how I may best combat them with what I have available to me.

AGEs are bad. If I cook foods too much, this will cause more AGEs. I also get AGEs from sugary fruits. It is good to reduce AGEs as much as possible. I just read an article, I think at Lef, that said that vegetarians may have higher concentrations of AGEs than those that eat meat because they don't get things like carnosine in their diet which may inhibit AGE formation.

I currently take ALCAR which has 525mg, but it also has in it 225mg ALA and 200mg Carnosine.

Would it make sense to seperately take carnosine, taurine, and benfotiamine to help reduce the formation of AGEs? Would it further be beneficial to take all of these (or some of these) each time I eat a main meal? (Or during, before, or after the meal?) Is there a considered amount of each of these that is the ideal amount to have each day, or an amount that is "too much"?

Kind of a supplement question, kind of a nutrition question. Hope this is the right forum!

[JLL]

Yes, I think it would make sense. Even better would probably be limiting sugary fruit intake and eating more vegetables. I take benfotiamine (120 mg before a meal with AGEs) myself, and would take carnosine if I had the cash to spend. I don't think anyone can give you an ideal amount, because only a limited number of studies have been done, and they're usually done on people with diabetes or some other condition.

[kenj]

It probably depends on how much food you eat, your activity levels, genetic makeup, etc. to find an optimal mix of AGE-helpers, for you. But I think the total 'AGE load' to your body is relatively low if eating a vegan diet, and especially if eating smaller portions (low in calories). *Avoiding* burned food is also key!
Not to deliberately advertise LEF (get in on sale), but I've just reintroduced their Mito Optimizer product, - it's been reformulated, and now really contains a potent mix of AGE helpers, IMO.
I just take one cap upon awakening, empty stomach. LEF (and others) recommend IIRC at least 1000mg of the carnosine (4 caps) for it to efficiently raise carnosine in the body (overwhelm the carnosinases enzymes, which breaks down carnosine), but I can't take this high dose, - allergic reactions, so I have to rely on individual difference and also Marios Kyriazis, MD showing that low dose carnosine may be helpful, too.

Also, I'd bet drinking a little alcohol (red wine), or coffee or tea with your meals can help blocking some of the 'byproducts' from the combustion of food you eat. At least, e.g. 2 populations; the french and the okinawans, drinking this stuff moderately seem to be in OK health in advanced age.
Again, I'm not sure bout *the* optimal dosages for supplemental nutrients for healthy folks, or if they indeed matter much if eating low caloric, but I take a cap of mito chondrithingy 1stthing AM, and with my evening meal I take e.g. Na-RALA 200mg, pyridoxamine 200mg, pyridoxal-5'-phosphate 50mg, benfotiamine 150mg, and alagebrium 100mg which, at least, in higher doses can help with diabetic complications, FWIW.

[Skötkonung]

Vegetarianism and veganism are perfectly healthy as long as you supplement for what you aren't getting in meat. Remember, the homo genus from homo erectus forwards evolved eating meat and have some dietary dependence on it.

You should:

- Limit fructose containing vegetables and fruits.
- Reduce cooking temperatures. Eat raw when possible.
- 1000mg + Carnosine (recommended dosage by LEF)
- 100mg Taurine (above average intake for a meat eater)
- 160mg Benfotiamine
- 100mg Pyridoxamine
- 1000mg ALCAR (dosage used in human trials)
- 400mg r-lipoic acid

If you do that, you shouldn't have any nutritional deficiencies or patterns that will result in high AGEs. I take this same regimen and I am on a Paleo type diet.

Edited by Skotkonung, 24 April 2009 - 12:24 AM.

[rwac]

Vegetarianism and veganism are perfectly healthy as long as you supplement for what you aren't getting in meat. Remember, the homo genus from homo erectus forwards evolved eating meat and have some dietary dependence on it.

Don't forget the standard B12.
(Methylcobalamin form is good)

You should also check your vitamin D status.

Perhaps find a vegan source of Omega-3.

Edited by rwac, 24 April 2009 - 01:20 AM.

[TheFountain]

Also, I'd bet drinking a little alcohol (red wine), or coffee or tea with your meals can help blocking some of the 'byproducts' from the combustion of food you eat. At least, e.g. 2 populations; the french and the okinawans, drinking this stuff moderately seem to be in OK health in advanced age.

Wasn't this the result of the anti-oxidant properties and not the alcohol content?

[JLL]

Also, I'd bet drinking a little alcohol (red wine), or coffee or tea with your meals can help blocking some of the 'byproducts' from the combustion of food you eat. At least, e.g. 2 populations; the french and the okinawans, drinking this stuff moderately seem to be in OK health in advanced age.

Wasn't this the result of the anti-oxidant properties and not the alcohol content?

Don't know about coffee, but green tea may be a good idea to drink with meals to reduce AGEs.

[TheFountain]

- 100mg Pyridoxamine

pyridoxal 5'-phosphate should do as well. They are essentially the same thing (vitamin B6)

[Skötkonung]

pyridoxal 5'-phosphate should do as well. They are essentially the same thing (vitamin B6)

Good find. I looked that up after seeing your post and it appears that both pyridoxal and pyridoxamineare common in animal products while pyridoxine is most common in plants.

[kenj]

Also, I'd bet drinking a little alcohol (red wine), or coffee or tea with your meals can help blocking some of the 'byproducts' from the combustion of food you eat. At least, e.g. 2 populations; the french and the okinawans, drinking this stuff moderately seem to be in OK health in advanced age.

Wasn't this the result of the anti-oxidant properties and not the alcohol content?

ISTM there's loads of mechanisms justifying a low dose alcohol.
This paper shows a low dose may produce NADH in the body, it acts as a mild 'stressor' to the body to increase antioxidant capacity.

[TheFountain]

Also, I'd bet drinking a little alcohol (red wine), or coffee or tea with your meals can help blocking some of the 'byproducts' from the combustion of food you eat. At least, e.g. 2 populations; the french and the okinawans, drinking this stuff moderately seem to be in OK health in advanced age.

Wasn't this the result of the anti-oxidant properties and not the alcohol content?

ISTM there's loads of mechanisms justifying a low dose alcohol.
This paper shows a low dose may produce NADH in the body, it acts as a mild 'stressor' to the body to increase antioxidant capacity.

So in other words, a 5 0Z glass of wine a day. But my experience with drinking more than this has always been that it leads to depletion of essential nutrients, thus giving me a pale, sunken face look the next morning. But then that experience would be of drinking more than one glass at a time (closer to 3-4).

[Llama Chris]

Yes, I think it would make sense. Even better would probably be limiting sugary fruit intake and eating more vegetables. I take benfotiamine (120 mg before a meal with AGEs) myself, and would take carnosine if I had the cash to spend. I don't think anyone can give you an ideal amount, because only a limited number of studies have been done, and they're usually done on people with diabetes or some other condition.

I am working on cutting down on the fruit, but am having a great deal of difficulty at the moment as fruit is great and easy (and tasty!) for snacking on (ie: for when I'm hungry but not eating a main meal) so I'm not really sure what to replace in my diet instead of fruit at the moment.

How often do you take benfotiamine? When you say before a meal with AGEs, how often do you have such a meal?

It probably depends on how much food you eat, your activity levels, genetic makeup, etc. to find an optimal mix of AGE-helpers, for you. But I think the total 'AGE load' to your body is relatively low if eating a vegan diet, and especially if eating smaller portions (low in calories). *Avoiding* burned food is also key!
Not to deliberately advertise LEF (get in on sale), but I've just reintroduced their Mito Optimizer product, - it's been reformulated, and now really contains a potent mix of AGE helpers, IMO.

Ah! This Mito Optimizer seems to be pretty much the exact kind of thing I was thinking of! I guess someone thought of it before me! :D Hm, problem is it is in a gelatin capsule... I've made it this far with this many supps finding vegetarian alternatives. I might have to get all these seperately.

Again, I'm not sure bout *the* optimal dosages for supplemental nutrients for healthy folks, or if they indeed matter much if eating low caloric, but I take a cap of mito chondrithingy 1stthing AM, and with my evening meal I take e.g. Na-RALA 200mg, pyridoxamine 200mg, pyridoxal-5'-phosphate 50mg, benfotiamine 150mg, and alagebrium 100mg which, at least, in higher doses can help with diabetic complications, FWIW.

Alagebrium - Haven't heard of this before (and just briefly looked at the Wikipedia entry on it), is there much research behind this?Also, why the two different b6's?

- Limit fructose containing vegetables and fruits.
- Reduce cooking temperatures. Eat raw when possible.
- 1000mg + Carnosine (recommended dosage by LEF)
- 100mg Taurine (above average intake for a meat eater)
- 160mg Benfotiamine
- 100mg Pyridoxamine
- 1000mg ALCAR (dosage used in human trials)
- 400mg r-lipoic acid

Looks like I am heading this way from what I am reading. It's getting pricey considering I can't get most of this stuff in Australia. What's the story with r-lipoic acid? Is it different to ALA? One of the few things I CAN get in Australia is ALA, I haven't looked closely at the bottle yet though.

Don't forget the standard B12.
(Methylcobalamin form is good)

You should also check your vitamin D status.

Perhaps find a vegan source of Omega-3.

Yep, got all this covered. B12 supp, D supp, Flaxseed Oil, and Vegan DHA (from Algae) .

[Llama Chris]

As for the alcohol thing - I'm still not convinced that, for a healthy person, any amount of alcohol is going to be worthwhile in terms of positive health benefits when weighed against the negative health effects.

If all these things help against AGE's, would it be useful to get powdered forms (I don't think you can get powdered Carnosine - so at least breaking open the capsule), mix them in a bottle of water, and drink throughout the day when eating?

[kenj]

>>> Alagebrium - Haven't heard of this before (and just briefly looked at the Wikipedia entry on it), is there much research behind this?Also, why the two different b6's?

Alagebrium I think has made phase 2 human trials for cardiovascular disease; it is still an experimental drug.
There's more studies for pyridoxamine working against glycation, but P5P may work, too, - so I take both.

Re: alcohol, I'm not sure there are *any* 'negative health effects' if consumed in 'low dose' (like a glass of wine or a beer, perhaps every other day, with meals). yeah, it adds calories but if you can work it into your daily calorie consumption, I think it's plausible for the effects mentioned in the paper above + it may block some of the methionine (rodents live longer on methionine-restricted diets) from protein-rich meals.

Edited by kenj, 26 April 2009 - 02:24 PM.

[Skötkonung]

As for the alcohol thing - I'm still not convinced that, for a healthy person, any amount of alcohol is going to be worthwhile in terms of positive health benefits when weighed against the negative health effects.

If all these things help against AGE's, would it be useful to get powdered forms (I don't think you can get powdered Carnosine - so at least breaking open the capsule), mix them in a bottle of water, and drink throughout the day when eating?

If you are having problems affording all of these supplements, I would specifically focus on the supplements that you aren't getting from avoiding meat / animal products. So far, I have seen several studies in other threads that indicate a lack of dietary taurine and carnosine in combination with more fructose containing fruits / veggies are causing vegans and vegetarians to have increased AGE levels. I bet if you supplemented only those two, in combination with a good B vitamin complex, you would probably have very low AGE crosslinkes forming in the body.

I take my carnosine in two tablets of 500mg. Once in the morning and once in the evening.

[EmbraceUnity]

Vegetarianism and veganism are perfectly healthy as long as you supplement for what you aren't getting in meat. Remember, the homo genus from homo erectus forwards evolved eating meat and have some dietary dependence on it.

You should:

- Limit fructose containing vegetables and fruits.
- Reduce cooking temperatures. Eat raw when possible.
- 1000mg + Carnosine (recommended dosage by LEF)
- 100mg Taurine (above average intake for a meat eater)
- 160mg Benfotiamine
- 100mg Pyridoxamine
- 1000mg ALCAR (dosage used in human trials)
- 400mg r-lipoic acid

If you do that, you shouldn't have any nutritional deficiencies or patterns that will result in high AGEs. I take this same regimen and I am on a Paleo type diet.

don't forget creatine