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How do you prepare and adapt to a Paleo/low carb diet?


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#1 Not_Supplied

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 10:32 AM


Hi there.

I've had a shot at this a couple of times but have ran into problems with adapting. I wasn't comfortable enough in my knowledge and what I was eating to stick it out.

Can you help me make a plan to switch to a high fat paleo diet, over a few months if necessary doing everything right?

I need to know

whether to ease into eating more fats or do an atkins style induction
what's the difference between 'ketogenic activity', 'ketosis', 'ketogenesis'? - when and how long should I be in these states?
what balance of fats should I aim for - monounsaturated, saturated, omega 3 etc?
how much protein for body weight/activity level?
any supplements recommended to ease the process?

Anything else you think I should know.

Thanks in advance.

#2 shuffleup

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 04:26 PM

Hi there.

I've had a shot at this a couple of times but have ran into problems with adapting. I wasn't comfortable enough in my knowledge and what I was eating to stick it out.

Can you help me make a plan to switch to a high fat paleo diet, over a few months if necessary doing everything right?

I need to know

whether to ease into eating more fats or do an atkins style induction
what's the difference between 'ketogenic activity', 'ketosis', 'ketogenesis'? - when and how long should I be in these states?
what balance of fats should I aim for - monounsaturated, saturated, omega 3 etc?
how much protein for body weight/activity level?
any supplements recommended to ease the process?

Anything else you think I should know.

Thanks in advance.


I can relate as I tried to go lower carb a couple times and it is tough in the beginning. What worked for me is the Atkins induction type approach. It will suck for about 10 days but after that you will be good. My recommendation is to not try to ease into it just do it. If you get hungry, eat more just not stuff off the list.

Don't stress out about the ketosis and all that. I've never bothered with measuring that stuff.

Fats - I take omega 3's from 2 tsp's fish oil and omega 3 eggs.

Protein and such concerns are overthinking the atkins approach IMO. Just do the plan.

By the way, I'm down to 170 from 230 lbs.

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#3 rwac

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:14 PM

Perhaps do the atkins induction, but allow yourself a "cheat day" every week or so.
(My weakness is Indian and Thai food)
This will allow you to be strict on the other days

It's nice to know if you're going into ketosis, especially since it might cause you to blow positive on a breathalyzer. But don't worry about it.

I did it the hard way, but I believe glutamine helps with carb-cravings.

Personally, I don't worry about how much protein I'm getting, or the ratio of fats.
(That might be more of a bodybuilding thing ?)
Just avoid Omega-6.
FYI: I hate the taste of Omega-3 eggs.

#4 Skötkonung

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 06:23 PM

Good questions! I don't think has been covered here before.

whether to ease into eating more fats or do an atkins style induction

An induction phase is only necessary if you are trying to go into Ketosis. Induction refers the process where by the body adapts to using ketones as its primary source of energy. While some ketones will be produced on a paleo-style diet, your carbohydrates should not be so low that you are relying primarily on them for energy. Ketosis requires sub 50g of carbs daily to occur, a paleo dieter should aim for 100-150g of carbs daily.

In your case, I thnk you should ease into eating more fats and less carbohydrates. Mark Sisson, of Mark's Daily Apple, said he gradually went low carb over several months of trial and error. I think for most people this is the best approach. I recommend monitoring your daily food intake and macro nutrient ratios using a free service like FitDay.com. Make sure to measure your portions appropriatly. Estimation of food intake is usually very inaccurate when starting out.

what's the difference between 'ketogenic activity', 'ketosis', 'ketogenesis'? - when and how long should I be in these states?

Ketosis is a state normally associated with extreme carbohydrate deprivation. It occurs when the liver converts fat into ketone bodies, which can be used by all of the body for energy as an alternative to glucose. I recommend reading the following post by Dr Eades: Metabolism and ketosis.

what balance of fats should I aim for - monounsaturated, saturated, omega 3 etc?

Try and aim for a ratio of about 1:2 or 1:1 with Omega 6 to 3 fats. In a review entitled The Importance of the Omega-6/Omega-3 Fatty Acid Ratio in Cadiovacular Disease and Other Chronic Disease , Dr. Simopoulos concludes that Paleolithic humans had a ratio of 0.79. Paleolithic human intake of omega-3 exceeded that of omega-6. So for people trying to live a paleo-lifestyle, it is best to have an abundant intake of omega 3 fats.

As for saturated fats, I recommend going a bit lighter on those than most paleo-dieters would suggest, but you should by no means be avoiding them. At the end of the day, its most important to monitor your Omega 6 /3 ratio and total macro nutrients ratio (p, c, f).

how much protein for body weight/activity level?

An adequate protein intake is probably anywhere between 1g per pound of lean body mass to 1g per pound of total body mass. Lean body mass can be calculated by taking your total weight and substracting your percent bodyfat. So, if we have a 200lb man with a 20% bodyfat, his lean mass would be 160lbs. His target protein intake should be anywhere between 160g to 200g of protein daily.

any supplements recommended to ease the process?

Just because you are going low carb, doesn't mean you should be constantly hungry. However, if you have those sugar cravings, try drinking a diet soda or sugar-free jello. Keep in mind that these aren't paleo foods and that you want to eventually remove them from your diet, however they can help ease the transition.

#5 Not_Supplied

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 12:27 PM

Great answers thanks. That Eades post was a very clear and concise explanation of ketones. It made me think of another question...if you are following a paleo plan, do you eat your foods at planned times to maximise ketone production or for any other reason?

It seems to make intuitive sense to me to graze on a few carbs and bit of protein in the afternoon, then have a main meal of protein and fat in the evening. That way you get a good fast from evening to first food. Does any theory suggest that this is or is not a good plan?

#6 Skötkonung

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 08:12 PM

Great answers thanks. That Eades post was a very clear and concise explanation of ketones. It made me think of another question...if you are following a paleo plan, do you eat your foods at planned times to maximise ketone production or for any other reason?

It seems to make intuitive sense to me to graze on a few carbs and bit of protein in the afternoon, then have a main meal of protein and fat in the evening. That way you get a good fast from evening to first food. Does any theory suggest that this is or is not a good plan?

You can cycle your food that way if you prefer, but ultimately I think it is best to follow a regimen you can stick with indefinitely. For me that means flexibility. I eat when I am hungry and don't try and plan my meals with that level of granularity.

Initially, I would suggest just fulfilling your daily macros. Its hard enough taking on a new lifestyle, if you get caught up in the details it makes failure much more likely. Once you have a solid history of consistently following a paleo nutritional regimen, try experimenting a little more if you like.

#7 JackChristopher

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 07:21 PM

As for saturated fats, I recommend going a bit lighter on those than most paleo-dieters would suggest, but you should by no means be avoiding them. At the end of the day, its most important to monitor your Omega 6 /3 ratio and total macro nutrients ratio (p, c, f).


What's your reasoning to limit sat fats? Are you concerned about limiting animal sat fats mainly? Given the right context they seem fine to my knowledge. But I'm not sure in what amounts.

Obviously, they're terrible for you when processed (hydrogenated). But I'm not sure what happens with other types of processing. For instance maybe pasteurization is bad for sat fats? We know pasteurization is bad in a few ways. But anecdotally this seems false. Some cultures or individuals eat plenty of pasteurized dairy, and within the right diet/context they seems fine.

And I doubt genetics matters much. But perhaps lifestyle does. Could exercise be a factor? This also seems false to me intuitively, for the same reasons above. I think the best candidate for why sat fats becoming problematic in people is that they're eating them in the wrong form and context.

I'm experimenting with this Paleo/High-fat diet, only a month yet. I'd like to add that I'm mixed. European Spanish (Grandfather, mother's side), Italian (Two grandparents, father's side; he's "full blooded"), and Puerto Rican (Mother is supposed African/Taino/European Spanish a.k.a. Native Central American). I don't know how any of this could be relevant, we'll see.

Another oddity is that I was morbidly obese, and have been obese (or at least overweight) the majority of my life. I know that's probably caused metabolic havoc over the years.

P.S. I wanted to PM you but it's not working.

Edited by JackChristopher, 16 May 2009 - 07:37 PM.


#8 Skötkonung

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 07:13 AM

As for saturated fats, I recommend going a bit lighter on those than most paleo-dieters would suggest, but you should by no means be avoiding them. At the end of the day, its most important to monitor your Omega 6 /3 ratio and total macro nutrients ratio (p, c, f).


What's your reasoning to limit sat fats? Are you concerned about limiting animal sat fats mainly? Given the right context they seem fine to my knowledge. But I'm not sure in what amounts.

Obviously, they're terrible for you when processed (hydrogenated). But I'm not sure what happens with other types of processing. For instance maybe pasteurization is bad for sat fats? We know pasteurization is bad in a few ways. But anecdotally this seems false. Some cultures or individuals eat plenty of pasteurized dairy, and within the right diet/context they seems fine.

And I doubt genetics matters much. But perhaps lifestyle does. Could exercise be a factor? This also seems false to me intuitively, for the same reasons above. I think the best candidate for why sat fats becoming problematic in people is that they're eating them in the wrong form and context.

I'm experimenting with this Paleo/High-fat diet, only a month yet. I'd like to add that I'm mixed. European Spanish (Grandfather, mother's side), Italian (Two grandparents, father's side; he's "full blooded"), and Puerto Rican (Mother is supposed African/Taino/European Spanish a.k.a. Native Central American). I don't know how any of this could be relevant, we'll see.

Another oddity is that I was morbidly obese, and have been obese (or at least overweight) the majority of my life. I know that's probably caused metabolic havoc over the years.

P.S. I wanted to PM you but it's not working.

Here are the reasons I think we should not rely too heavily on saturated fat levels:

Ketosis:
Saturated fats seem to be fine within the context of ketosis. Since ketosis and glycolysis are competing systems, if you are consuming a moderate to low amount of carbohydrates (100-150g), you will not fully be ketone adapted thus making a high saturated fat diet questionable regarding the paleolithic diet and specifically longevity.

Animal Source:
If you review the literature surrounding paleolithic diet and food sources, you will see that saturated diet levels may not have been as high as many people speculate. Consider beef: grass fed cows have 65% less saturated fat than their grain fed contemporaries. Less domesticated animals, such as the buffalo, have even less saturated fats than grass fed cows. Birds even less than buffalo. Furthermore, it is unlikely that paleolithic humans were cooking with butter, drinking heavy whipping cream, eating lots of cheeses, and taking shots of coconut oil (as some users here have tried). They were getting their saturated fats mainly from animals and in context of a strict 2:1 ratio of omega 4/6 fats found in the animal meats that made up their diet.

Availability:
We must also consider availability. Some of the texts I have read seem to indicate that paleolithic humans gorged on nuts (rich in saturated fats) seasonally and likely they did the same with certain fruits and berries. However, just as we limit fruit (read carbohydrate) intake, we must also limit our intake of nuts and seeds. The idea here is to average out the intake fruits and nuts and their respective macro-nutrients, not gorge on them constantly. Even eggs, which are in high saturated fat, were likely not that available to paleolithic humans.

Plants versus Animals:
Not all saturated fats are the same. Saturated fat is an umbrella term for the combination of lauric acid, myristic acid, palmitic acid, and stearic acid of which comprise many food's lipid profiles. Depending on the type of food (plant or animal), the amount of each of these specific compounds will vary. For instance, coconut oil has 47% lauric acid while beef has 0%. These discrepancies can have wide impacts on our body's ability to not only process the fat but subsequently our long term health. These same discrepancies in fats hold true with "healthy" omega 4s. Flax is comprised mostly of ALA (a phytoestrogen) while fish oil is EPA and DHA (all omega 4 fats). High ALA levels in men has been shown to cause prostate cancer and lower testosterone. It is also not processed very efficiently by the body. So you see, we must be careful about the source of our fats, not just the type.

My recommendation is to not acutely worry about saturated fats-- don't start piling on the butter or eating copious amounts of nuts to meet some arbitrary quota. Eat grass fed beef, free range chicken and turkey. Moderate your dairy and egg intake. Focus on getting enough omega 4 fats (a rare commodity in today's food landscape) to balance out the rest of your lipid profile. Try and view your diet as holistically as possible.

PS
I think genetics and lifestyle both have an important role to play. The Masai, who eat a lot of saturated fats, have increased arterial streaking when compared to other lower-fat cultures. Arterial streaking is a sign of impending cardiovascular problems and it starts to occur from the day your are born at a rate specific to diet and lifestyle. Interestingly, their very active and nomadic culture compensates for this seemingly ominous warning sign by developing / training their cardiovascular system to be more robust as they age, thus compensating for any risk of artheosclerosis. That is why they appear to be relatively disease free compared to us sedentary westerners.

As for genetics, I don't feel we know enough about the human genome to rule it out completely. Anecdotally, I have met some people who are very carbohydrate sensitive and others who are very fat sensitive so who knows? We do know that many regional groups have various genes to compensate for nutritional deficiencies of their habitat. I, for instance, have hemochromatosis and test positive for the homozygous mutation of c282y. This gene causes increased absorption of dietary iron and is thought to be a result of the harsh climate and frequent famines in northern Europe. (Oh the problems of being from a homogeneous gene pool!) So, if this could occur, why couldn't the same happen with people's fat and carbohydrate metabolisms?

#9 rwac

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 07:29 AM

The Masai, who eat a lot of saturated fats, have increased arterial streaking when compared to other lower-fat cultures. Arterial streaking is a sign of impending cardiovascular problems and it starts to occur from the day your are born at a rate specific to diet and lifestyle. Interestingly, their very active and nomadic culture compensates for this seemingly ominous warning sign by developing / training their cardiovascular system to be more robust as they age, thus compensating for any risk of artheosclerosis. That is why they appear to be relatively disease free compared to us sedentary westerners.


Skotkonung,

The alternate theory is that all people will be healthy on a High Meat, High Sat-Fat diet.
The genetic variance merely changes how well we tolerate non-paleo food: grains, sugar, vegetable oils, milk etc.

You should read the following article by Stephan.

Here's the conclusion:

Either the Masai men are eating nothing but milk, meat and blood and they're nearly free from atherosclerosis, or they're eating however they please and they have as much atherosclerosis as the average American. There doesn't seem to be much in between.


http://wholehealthso...osclerosis.html

Edited by rwac, 18 May 2009 - 07:32 AM.


#10 Skötkonung

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 07:43 AM

The Masai, who eat a lot of saturated fats, have increased arterial streaking when compared to other lower-fat cultures. Arterial streaking is a sign of impending cardiovascular problems and it starts to occur from the day your are born at a rate specific to diet and lifestyle. Interestingly, their very active and nomadic culture compensates for this seemingly ominous warning sign by developing / training their cardiovascular system to be more robust as they age, thus compensating for any risk of artheosclerosis. That is why they appear to be relatively disease free compared to us sedentary westerners.


Skotkonung,

The alternate theory is that all people will be healthy on a High Meat, High Sat-Fat diet.
The genetic variance merely changes how well we tolerate non-paleo food: grains, sugar, vegetable oils, milk etc.

You should read the following article by Stephan.

Here's the conclusion:

Either the Masai men are eating nothing but milk, meat and blood and they're nearly free from atherosclerosis, or they're eating however they please and they have as much atherosclerosis as the average American. There doesn't seem to be much in between.



http://wholehealthso...osclerosis.html


You should review this study:

ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN THE MASAI
http://aje.oxfordjou...bstract/95/1/26

Here is the abstract:
"The hearts and aortae of 50 Masai men were collected at autopsy. These pastoral people are exceptionally active and fit and they consume diets of milk and meat. The intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men. Measurements of the aorta showed extensive atherosclerosis with lipid infiltration and fibrous changes but very few complicated lesions. The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men. The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease. It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosis by physical fitness which causes their coronary vessels to be capacious."


I don't deny that they are disease free on a high saturated fat diet, but if most research points to high activity levels as a major contributor to their ability to thrive on a high saturated fat diet, then how relevant is that to us? If most people, at best, go the gym 4-5 days a week for one hour, I doubt that activity level would be even close to comparable to the Masai. My point here is that a high saturated fat diet is not only anthropologically questionable (read: inaccurate) but likely not all that relevant to us in the modern world. Again, I am not saying saturated fats are bad, just that we shouldn't eat them excessively.

Edited by Skotkonung, 18 May 2009 - 07:49 AM.


#11 rwac

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 08:05 AM

I don't deny that they are disease free on a high saturated fat diet, but if most research points to high activity levels as a major contributor to their ability to thrive on a high saturated fat diet, then how relevant is that to us? If most people, at best, go the gym 4-5 days a week for one hour, I doubt that activity level would be even close to comparable to the Masai. My point here is that a high saturated fat diet is not only anthropologically questionable (read: inaccurate) but likely not all that relevant to us in the modern world. Again, I am not saying saturated fats are bad, just that we shouldn't eat them excessively.


Most research refuses to consider the possibility that the diet itself is responsible.

For instance the french have a low incidence of coronary heart disease, this is called the "French Paradox", again,
people refuse to consider that their high fat diet may be the reason for the low heart disease.

It seems like there's no research that actually tests whether a low carb diet with lots of sat-fat is bad for you.
...or even a proper low carb diet. Mainstream medicine seems to be ignoring low carb diets.

Edited by rwac, 18 May 2009 - 08:06 AM.


#12 JLL

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 10:25 AM

You should review this study:

ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN THE MASAI
http://aje.oxfordjou...bstract/95/1/26

Here is the abstract:
"The hearts and aortae of 50 Masai men were collected at autopsy. These pastoral people are exceptionally active and fit and they consume diets of milk and meat. The intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men. Measurements of the aorta showed extensive atherosclerosis with lipid infiltration and fibrous changes but very few complicated lesions. The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men. The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease. It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosis by physical fitness which causes their coronary vessels to be capacious."


I don't deny that they are disease free on a high saturated fat diet, but if most research points to high activity levels as a major contributor to their ability to thrive on a high saturated fat diet, then how relevant is that to us? If most people, at best, go the gym 4-5 days a week for one hour, I doubt that activity level would be even close to comparable to the Masai. My point here is that a high saturated fat diet is not only anthropologically questionable (read: inaccurate) but likely not all that relevant to us in the modern world. Again, I am not saying saturated fats are bad, just that we shouldn't eat them excessively.


That study was criticized in a blog, but I can't remember where. If I recall correctly, there was something wrong with the data collection methods. Will try to find it and post it later on. I remain skeptical about the Masai having atherosclerosis (and being protected from its effects through exercise).

#13 shuffleup

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 02:42 PM

You should review this study:

ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN THE MASAI
http://aje.oxfordjou...bstract/95/1/26

Here is the abstract:
"The hearts and aortae of 50 Masai men were collected at autopsy. These pastoral people are exceptionally active and fit and they consume diets of milk and meat. The intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men. Measurements of the aorta showed extensive atherosclerosis with lipid infiltration and fibrous changes but very few complicated lesions. The coronary arteries showed intimal thickening by atherosclerosis which equaled that of old U.S. men. The Masai vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for this disease. It is speculated that the Masai are protected from their atherosclerosis by physical fitness which causes their coronary vessels to be capacious."


I don't deny that they are disease free on a high saturated fat diet, but if most research points to high activity levels as a major contributor to their ability to thrive on a high saturated fat diet, then how relevant is that to us? If most people, at best, go the gym 4-5 days a week for one hour, I doubt that activity level would be even close to comparable to the Masai. My point here is that a high saturated fat diet is not only anthropologically questionable (read: inaccurate) but likely not all that relevant to us in the modern world. Again, I am not saying saturated fats are bad, just that we shouldn't eat them excessively.


That study was criticized in a blog, but I can't remember where. If I recall correctly, there was something wrong with the data collection methods. Will try to find it and post it later on. I remain skeptical about the Masai having atherosclerosis (and being protected from its effects through exercise).


It was on that link above - I thought that the study (not the abstract) indicated that there was a shift in diet away from the milk and meat, which was speculated to be the cause?

From the study as referenced in that link posted by rwac:

"We believe... that the Muran escapes some noxious dietary agent for a time. Obviously, this is neither animal fat nor cholesterol. The old and the young Masai do have access to such processed staples as flour, sugar, confections and shortenings through the Indian dukas scattered about Masailand. These foods could carry the hypothetical agent.""

#14 Skötkonung

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 06:14 PM

I don't deny that they are disease free on a high saturated fat diet, but if most research points to high activity levels as a major contributor to their ability to thrive on a high saturated fat diet, then how relevant is that to us? If most people, at best, go the gym 4-5 days a week for one hour, I doubt that activity level would be even close to comparable to the Masai. My point here is that a high saturated fat diet is not only anthropologically questionable (read: inaccurate) but likely not all that relevant to us in the modern world. Again, I am not saying saturated fats are bad, just that we shouldn't eat them excessively.


Most research refuses to consider the possibility that the diet itself is responsible.

For instance the french have a low incidence of coronary heart disease, this is called the "French Paradox", again,
people refuse to consider that their high fat diet may be the reason for the low heart disease.

It seems like there's no research that actually tests whether a low carb diet with lots of sat-fat is bad for you.
...or even a proper low carb diet. Mainstream medicine seems to be ignoring low carb diets.
I might have been inclined to agree with you except for one notable thing: "coronary vessels to be capacious." This does not usually occur in circumstances where individuals are inactive as an enlarged heart and blood vessels are primarily seen in runners and athletes as a result of consistent training.


Now I agree that study mentioned earlier is old (published in 1972) and there may be some issues with accuracy so I looked around and found a more modern investigation (2008):

Daily energy expenditure and cardiovascular risk in Masai, rural and urban Bantu Tanzanians
http://bjsm.bmj.com/...m.2007.044966v1

Compared to the previous sample of only 50 individuals, researchers investigated 985 adults, of which 130 were Masai.

Results Eighty two percents of Masai subjects reported a high fat/low carbohydrate intake, whereas 77% of the rural Bantu subjects reported a low fat/high carbohydrate intake, and a high fat/high carbohydrate intake was the main dietary pattern of the urban Bantu group as reported by 55%. The most conspicuous finding for the Masai was the extremely high energy expenditure, corresponding to 2565 kcal/day over basal requirements, compared to 1500 kcal/day in the rural and 891 kcal/day for the urban Bantu. Mean body mass index among the Masai was lower than among the rural and urban Bantu. Mean systolic blood pressure of the Masai was also lower compared to their rural and urban Bantu counterparts. The Masai revealed a favourable lipid profile.

Conclusion The potentially atherogenic diet among the Masai was not reflected in serum lipids and was offset probably by very high energy expenditure levels and low body weight.


What sets the Masai lifestyle apart is also a very high degree of physical activity. The Masai studied expended 2,500 kilocalories a day more than the basic requirement, compared with 1,500 kilocalories a day for the farmers and 891 kilocalories a day for the urbanites. According to the team, most Westerners would have to walk roughly 20 km a day to achieve the Masai level of energy expenditure.

The story was picked up by Science Daily:
http://www.scienceda...80718075357.htm

Furthermore, this is all kind of a moot point as the Masai are not considered to be an example of paleolithic peoples. They are a population that has managed to survive in a very inhospitable region by living a extreme lifestyle. I recommend reading this attached study (Implications of Plio-Pleistocene Hominin Diets for Modern Humans) for a more accurate perspective on the food intake of paleolithic humans. Evidence indicates paleolithic populations consumed a high amount of animal products, but that fat content and lipid profile may have been quite a bit different from what is available today.

Attached File  2006_Oxford.pdf   685.54KB   22 downloads

Edited by Skotkonung, 18 May 2009 - 06:24 PM.


#15 JackChristopher

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 01:01 AM

I think genetics and lifestyle both have an important role to play. The Masai, who eat a lot of saturated fats, have increased arterial streaking when compared to other lower-fat cultures. Arterial streaking is a sign of impending cardiovascular problems and it starts to occur from the day your are born at a rate specific to diet and lifestyle. Interestingly, their very active and nomadic culture compensates for this seemingly ominous warning sign by developing / training their cardiovascular system to be more robust as they age, thus compensating for any risk of artheosclerosis. That is why they appear to be relatively disease free compared to us sedentary westerners.


Could the opposite be true? Too much cardiovascular work > general inflammation > streaky arteries? Off the cut theory: Humans weren't meant for strenuous cardiovascular workouts regardless of diet. And certain diets do especially bad with in that context.

Maybe a high-fat diet with hard cardio would contribute to heart disease?

P.S. I appreciate the thoroughness. I want to reply on the rest later, but I agree with a few points of concern.

Edited by JackChristopher, 19 May 2009 - 01:05 AM.


#16 rwac

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 01:23 AM

Maybe a high-fat diet with hard cardio would contribute to heart disease?


You are mistaken. The Masai are healthy with a high sat-fat diet and lots of exercise.

Edited by rwac, 19 May 2009 - 01:23 AM.


#17 Skötkonung

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 01:56 AM

Could the opposite be true? Too much cardiovascular work > general inflammation > streaky arteries? Off the cut theory: Humans weren't meant for strenuous cardiovascular workouts regardless of diet. And certain diets do especially bad with in that context.

Maybe a high-fat diet with hard cardio would contribute to heart disease?

P.S. I appreciate the thoroughness. I want to reply on the rest later, but I agree with a few points of concern.

If anything has been demonstrated by the studies done on the Masai, it would be that cardiovascular exercise is essential to health on a extremely high saturated fat diet such as done by the Masai. You should also not confuse strenuous cardiovascular exercise with prolonged strenuous cardiovascular exercise. The human body was meant to sprint and run for relatively short distances (perhaps under a mile) and was definitely meant to be highly mobile as in walk many miles a day. We weren't optimized to run marathons and that is why long distance runners tend to get joint injuries much earlier than most. The Masai activity level is much closer to the former than the latter. As a migratory people, they follow their herds of cows on foot across great distances. All this walking has protective effects on their cardiovascular system. Walking shouldn't be strenuous for an able bodied person.

I also wanted to add this: You mentioned you were obese / overweight throughout most of your life in your above post. As a word of caution, saturated fats tend to be best when eaten in conjunction with a low carb diet and a healthy balance of omega 3/6. If you find yourself cheating frequently with candy or fried foods, those once beneficial saturated fats can become very harmful - especially if your body is already under stress from the excess weight. if you are going to follow the paleo diet, you will want to follow it strictly (initially monitoring your carbohydrate intake precisely) so as to not cause yourself any excess risk.

#18 Not_Supplied

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 01:16 PM

Don't want to break the flow of the discussion which is very interesting but can I just ask Skotkonung - in that case do you use other fats apart from saturated to make up the ratio of fat:protein:carb? What are the sources?

Or do you feel that the amount you get from beef is enough?

What does everyone else do about this?

#19 JackChristopher

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 04:43 PM

Could the opposite be true? Too much cardiovascular work > general inflammation > streaky arteries? Off the cut theory: Humans weren't meant for strenuous cardiovascular workouts regardless of diet. And certain diets do especially bad with in that context.

Maybe a high-fat diet with hard cardio would contribute to heart disease?

P.S. I appreciate the thoroughness. I want to reply on the rest later, but I agree with a few points of concern.

If anything has been demonstrated by the studies done on the Masai, it would be that cardiovascular exercise is essential to health on a extremely high saturated fat diet such as done by the Masai. You should also not confuse strenuous cardiovascular exercise with prolonged strenuous cardiovascular exercise. The human body was meant to sprint and run for relatively short distances (perhaps under a mile) and was definitely meant to be highly mobile as in walk many miles a day. We weren't optimized to run marathons and that is why long distance runners tend to get joint injuries much earlier than most. The Masai activity level is much closer to the former than the latter. As a migratory people, they follow their herds of cows on foot across great distances. All this walking has protective effects on their cardiovascular system. Walking shouldn't be strenuous for an able bodied person.

I also wanted to add this: You mentioned you were obese / overweight throughout most of your life in your above post. As a word of caution, saturated fats tend to be best when eaten in conjunction with a low carb diet and a healthy balance of omega 3/6. If you find yourself cheating frequently with candy or fried foods, those once beneficial saturated fats can become very harmful - especially if your body is already under stress from the excess weight. if you are going to follow the paleo diet, you will want to follow it strictly (initially monitoring your carbohydrate intake precisely) so as to not cause yourself any excess risk.


I meant to prompt the question, must diets and lifestyle integrate with each other? You suggest, yes. I tend to agree. But what follows considering sat fats?

Your caveat was with the Masai (arterial streaking). Even with high activity something, possibly high sat fats or some other dietary/lifestyle interaction, was causing damage. I understand some people dispute this data. And what about the Inuit?

Paleo diets seem quite good for short-term biomarkers. But if problems like hastened arterial streaking only show over the long-term, it makes it harder to adopt for lifetime. It's counter-intuitve that a Kitvan diet would be optimal long term.

My diet: High-fat, similar to paleo with modern additions -- that's 50g <-+> carbs/day. I'm aware of the PUFAs and AGEs issue as related to sat fats. The most I get is from EVOO (1.5 per tbsp), and trace amounts in foods like eggs. I avoid high-heat, but cook in pasture butter (eggs) or water (lean meat & fish). Worst I eat is dairy: Sour cream, heavy cream, greek yogurt, occasionally ricotta cheese. Issues being AGEs and pasterization. But I need an animal fat vitamin source. I can't get pastured meat, and I'm weary of rely too much on fish. I'd rather supplement with other sources.

I assume I've accumulated my share of metabolic havoc. And I'll sacrifice the possible exogenous AGEs and methionine issues to lose the weight. Has met restriction been done on adults rats, BTW?

Edited by JackChristopher, 19 May 2009 - 04:49 PM.


#20 Skötkonung

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 07:53 PM

Don't want to break the flow of the discussion which is very interesting but can I just ask Skotkonung - in that case do you use other fats apart from saturated to make up the ratio of fat:protein:carb? What are the sources?

Or do you feel that the amount you get from beef is enough?

What does everyone else do about this?


To be honest, I pay most attention to food source percentage as opposed to a specific macro-nutrient ratio. My reasoning behind this is that a diet comprised primarily of fats, while containing some benefits from a clinical dietitian's perspective, is not supported by the anthropological literature. Since the goal of the paleolithic diet is to a follow a regimen of eating and perhaps exercising that closely resembles the patterns of those who lived during the preagricultural period (pre 10,000 BP), it makes sense to strongly consider what we know from anthropology.

Based on recorded history and anthropological evidence, we know the following fat sources weren't available to paleolithic humans:
- Dairy, specifically butter and cheese. (c 6,100–5,500 BP)
- Refined vegetable oils such as shortening, margarine, etc. (1897 AD)
- Vegetable oils (c 5,000–6,000 BP, widely available starting 1910 AD)
- Fatty, feedlot-produced meats (1860 AD)

Incidentally, this is the origin for most modern sources of dietary fat.

Fatty acids fall into one of three major categories: (1) saturated fatty acids (SFA), (2) monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFA), and (3) polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA). PUFA occur in two biologically important families, the n-6 PUFA and the n-3 PUFA. Substantial evidence now indicates that for preventing the risk of chronic disease the absolute amount of dietary fat is less important than the type of fat. Beneficial, health-promoting fats are MUFA and some PUFA, whereas most SFA and trans fatty acids are detrimental when consumed in excessive quantities. Further, the balance of dietary n-6 and n-3 PUFA is integral in preventing the risk of chronic disease and promoting health.

The six major sources of SFA in the U.S. diet are fatty meats, baked goods, cheese, milk, margarine, and butter. Five of these six foods would not have been components of hominin diets before the advent of animal husbandry or the Industrial Revolution. Because of the inherently lean nature of wild-animal tissues throughout most of the year and the dominance of MUFA + PUFA in their muscle and organ tissues, high dietary levels of SFA on a year-round basis would have been infrequently encountered in preagricultural diets.

Since the western diet frequently contains excessive saturated and trans fatty acids and has too little n-3 PUFA relative to its n-6 PUFA, it is my opinion that individuals following the paleo diet would experience better health if they avoided the above listed food sources and instead emphasized the consumption of grass fed and free range animals, which incidentally more closely resemble their wild peers as opposed to feedlot beef.

So the big question isn't the total amount of fat, but the total quantity of meat consumed as that was the primary source of dietary fats in the paleolithic diet. While this number likely varied per region, we can approximate an average by reviewing the data of modern hunter-gatherer tribes and carbon signatures from paleolithic era bone samples.
Attached File  Picture_1.png   55.97KB   9 downloads

The data in the table above indicates that most hunter gatherer tribes consumed somewhere around 60-65% of their food intake from low SFA animal sources. Similarly, our own evolution indicates a high intake of animal product. The following excerpt is pulled from the above attached study:

The development of stone tools and the increased dietary reliance on animal foods
allowed early African hominins to colonize northern latitudes outside of Africa where
plant foods would have been seasonally restricted. Early Homo skeletal remains and
Oldowan lithic technology appear at the Dmanisi site in the Republic of Georgia (40°
N) by 1.75 Mya (Vekua et al., 2002), and more recently Oldowan tools dating to
1.66 Mya have been discovered at the Majuangou site in North China (40° N; Zhu
et al., 2004). Both of these tool-producing hominins would likely have consumed
considerably more animal food than prelithic hominins living in more temperate
African climates.
In addition to the fossil evidence suggesting a trend for increased animal food
consumption, hominins may have experienced a number of genetic adaptations to
animal-based diets early on in our genus's evolution analogous to those of obligate
carnivores such as felines. Carnivorous diets reduce evolutionary selective pressures
that act to maintain certain anatomical and physiological characteristics needed to
process and metabolize high amounts of plant foods. In this regard, hominins, like
felines, have experienced a reduction in gut size and metabolic activity along with a
concurrent expansion of brain size and metabolic activity as they included more energetically
dense animal food into their diets (Leonard and Robertson, 1994; Aiello
and Wheeler, 1995; Cordain, Watkins, and Mann, 2001). Further, similar to obligate
carnivores (Pawlosky, Barnes, and Salem, 1994), humans maintain an inefficient ability
to chain elongate and desaturate 18 carbon fatty acids to their product 20 and 22
carbon fatty acids (Emken et al., 1992). Since 20 and 22 carbon fatty acids are essential
cellular lipids, then evolutionary reductions in desaturase and elongase activity
in hominins indicate that preformed dietary 20 and 22 carbon fatty acids (found
only in animal foods) were increasingly incorporated in lieu of their endogenously
synthesized counterparts derived from 18 carbon plant fatty acids. Finally, our species
has a limited ability to synthesize the biologically important amino acid, taurine,
from precursor amino acids (Sturman et al., 1975; Chesney et al., 1998), and vegetarian
diets in humans result in lowered plasma and urinary concentrations of taurine
(Laidlaw et al., 1988). Like felines (Knopf et al., 1978; MacDonald, Rogers, and
Morris, 1984), the need to endogenously synthesize taurine may have been evolutionarily
reduced in humans because exogenous dietary sources of preformed taurine
(found only in animal food) had relaxed the selective pressure formerly requiring
the need to synthesize this conditionally essential amino acid.


Based on this information, I consume upwards of 60% of my food intake from animal products such as free-range chickens, and grass fed beef, deer, and bison. The rest of my calories comes from fresh, organic, fruits and vegetables. To a limited extent (less than 10%), some of my calories come from nuts.

Edited by Skotkonung, 19 May 2009 - 07:56 PM.


#21 Skötkonung

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 08:26 PM

I meant to prompt the question, must diets and lifestyle integrate with each other? You suggest, yes. I tend to agree. But what follows considering sat fats?

Your caveat was with the Masai (arterial streaking). Even with high activity something, possibly high sat fats or some other dietary/lifestyle interaction, was causing damage. I understand some people dispute this data. And what about the Inuit?

Paleo diets seem quite good for short-term biomarkers. But if problems like hastened arterial streaking only show over the long-term, it makes it harder to adopt for lifetime. It's counter-intuitve that a Kitvan diet would be optimal long term.

My diet: High-fat, similar to paleo with modern additions -- that's 50g <-+> carbs/day. I'm aware of the PUFAs and AGEs issue as related to sat fats. The most I get is from EVOO (1.5 per tbsp), and trace amounts in foods like eggs. I avoid high-heat, but cook in pasture butter (eggs) or water (lean meat & fish). Worst I eat is dairy: Sour cream, heavy cream, greek yogurt, occasionally ricotta cheese. Issues being AGEs and pasterization. But I need an animal fat vitamin source. I can't get pastured meat, and I'm weary of rely too much on fish. I'd rather supplement with other sources.

I assume I've accumulated my share of metabolic havoc. And I'll sacrifice the possible exogenous AGEs and methionine issues to lose the weight. Has met restriction been done on adults rats, BTW?

I think diet and lifestyle are closely linked. Depending on your activity levels, your dietary needs will change considerably. For instance, long distance runners often require a higher carbohydrate intake as glycogen is a major driver of that type of energy expenditure. If you are modeling your lifestyle after those hypothesized by anthropologists for paleolithic peoples, a lower carbohydrate, high protein diet is best.

I think you are incorrectly comparing the Masai to a paleolithic diet. If you'll see my above posts, I've linked to several data sources that indicate a high SFA diet was not consistent with paleolithic food sources. Most research seems to indicate that for preventing the risk of chronic disease the absolute amount of dietary fat is less important than the type of fat. Cultures that thrive on high SFA diets do so because of their extremely high activity levels and the extreme harshness of their climate, however this is not relevant to us or anthropologists modern interpretation of the paleolithic diet.

A correctly structured paleolithic diet will have some SFA but the high quantities of n-6 PUFA and n-3 PUFA will negate any damage and prevent increased arterial streaking. In other words, a paleolithic diet should be great for longevity and longterm biomarker stability. Furthermore, since you are keeping sugar consumption very low, the production of endogenous AGEs will be minimal compared to other higher carbohydrate diets. From the literature I've read, endogenous AGE production is responsible for upwards of 70% of total AGE crosslink accumulation in the body, where as exogenous AGEs are ingested at a poor efficiency.

From reviewing your diet, I think you are going about it wrong:
EVOO is high in n-6 PUFA but low in n-3 PUFA (omega 4). Furthermore, its fat content is from plant sources so it is not well processed by the human metabolism. While olive oil is better than canola oil (or corn oil), it is a poor substitute for Fish Oil / Krill Oil and is perpetuating a bad fat ratio that will lead ultimately to health problems. Similarly, the dairy is high in SFA and we know that was simply not something consumed by paleolithic humans.

If you are trying to eat sub 50g carbohydrate, I recommend eating a lot of grass fed beef and wild caught salmon with copious fresh greens and to a minimal extent, nuts and berries. Doing so would reduce your total SFA intake, increase your protein intake to preserve / build muscle, and balance your Omega 4 /6 ratio at 1:1 to 2:1. Once weekly, consume a higher amount of fresh fruits and vegetables (100g carbs total daily intake) to keep your metabolism from becoming stagnate and to cover any nutritional deficiencies that might be occurring from going to so low carb.

#22 shuffleup

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 01:43 AM

From reviewing your diet, I think you are going about it wrong:
EVOO is high in n-6 PUFA but low in n-3 PUFA (omega 4). Furthermore, its fat content is from plant sources so it is not well processed by the human metabolism. While olive oil is better than canola oil (or corn oil), it is a poor substitute for Fish Oil / Krill Oil and is perpetuating a bad fat ratio that will lead ultimately to health problems. Similarly, the dairy is high in SFA and we know that was simply not something consumed by paleolithic humans.


I am with you on this but I think you mean Omega 3 (?) Anyway - so how much fish oil can we take to balance out the ratio? Or are you saying cut down total fat intake to get the Omega 6 down? Low carb and low fat is a tough plan.

#23 JackChristopher

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 02:46 AM

From reviewing your diet, I think you are going about it wrong:
EVOO is high in n-6 PUFA but low in n-3 PUFA (omega 4). Furthermore, its fat content is from plant sources so it is not well processed by the human metabolism. While olive oil is better than canola oil (or corn oil), it is a poor substitute for Fish Oil / Krill Oil and is perpetuating a bad fat ratio that will lead ultimately to health problems. Similarly, the dairy is high in SFA and we know that was simply not something consumed by paleolithic humans.[/quote]

I am with you on this but I think you mean Omega 3 (?) Anyway - so how much fish oil can we take to balance out the ratio? Or are you saying cut down total fat intake to get the Omega 6 down? Low carb and low fat is a tough plan.
---------- Skotkonung

You diverge from the paleo/high-fat people (Eades, Stephan, Mark, Duke) on the saturated fat of paleo animals. That's where the prompting came from. They think we ate high SFA megafauna, like bears and wooly mammoths, until we kill them all. We moved on to lean ones later. Supposedly, even Cordain been revising fat intake for paleos upward lately. That's why I was surprised to see your original comment. I have to look deeper into the issue.

I've definitely been avoiding the O-6 PUFAs; I target <20g/day, but I can't get fish oil right now. But I do mostly eat fish (salmon, tuna, mackerel, sardines). I'd eat more but I'm weary about mercury. And I didn't think 6.25oz (1.5g PUFA-O6/tbsp) bottle a week of EVOO was that bad. But overall this is about high-fat than paleo. Of course I'm interested in the underpinnings of both.

The main dietary change would be whether I should consciously increase sat fat (following Duke, Eades etc.) or not worry about it much and pay more attention to optimizing Om3s over Om6s ... you're probably right that the later matter more, regardless of the true FA comps of prehistoric animals. I just need to make sure I have a good source of animal fat vitamins (A,D,K). I've never been into fatty cuts or organs, that was the reason of compromising with dairy and butter despite AGE/pasteurization/Non-paleo issues. Convient snack too.

Edited by JackChristopher, 20 May 2009 - 02:50 AM.


#24 JLL

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 12:05 PM

Skotkonung wrote: "From the literature I've read, endogenous AGE production is responsible for upwards of 70% of total AGE crosslink accumulation in the body, where as exogenous AGEs are ingested at a poor efficiency."

I've been trying to find information on this for a while now. Any references?

#25 JackChristopher

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 04:59 PM

I realized my confusion. The paleo diet history issue got entangled with the high-fat diet (and my own personal variation of it).

I want to clarify this. Here what I believed (and the conclusions I drew) about the safety of sat fats:

1. Don't eat the processed form (hydrogenated sat fats). And obviously you can't eat them in conjunction with trans-fats, processed foods or a high carb diet; that context causes problems. You need to eat a fairly specific diet, high-fat, paleo or similar diet.

2. Get sat fats from mainly from (grass-fed) animals; that vitamin source is important.

2b. Plant sources like extra virgin coconut oil/red palm oil/cocoa butter are good supplementally. Some EVOO is also good for getting MUFAs.
//(Minor dispute)//

3. Paleos ate a lot of sat fat. Grok ate highly saturated megafauna the majority of history. He drove them into extinction and was later forced to eat lean meats which are inferior.
//(Disputed. I have to look into this. Many say the opposite.)//

3b. Following that, eating highly saturated paleo meats is best for health; they are a rich vitamin source; A, D, K are particularly important. Because of this go out of your way to eat animal sat fat.
//(The last sentence is disputed. Skotkonung prompted my concern.)

4. You can eat this way if you keep Om3s high and Om6s low. Eat cold water/wild caught fatty fish, and supplement fish/krill oil. Sat fats are bad with high Om6.

4b. Activity level doesn't matter much as related to sat fat, given that you meet the above criteria. But you *should* do anaerobic with some aerobic exercise (sprints and occasional long walks). //(Skotkonung disputed. I don't know how much this matters. But I think other factors matter more.)//

5. If you can't afford fatty grass fed meats, don't buy grain-fed meats. Get lean meats and supplement with low-carb dairy. (Disputed.)

5b. Non-paleo foods like dairy aren't best and have their problems. But pastured butter, eggs, heavy/sour cream and occasionally ricotta are a sensible vice. The trade off for vitamins is too important.
//(I'm not strictly paleo more a high-fat dieter. But I know dairy isn't that good, I'm fine with eliminating it. This depends on the the factors above; I'd have to make up for them.)

6. Genetics matters in all this but diet matters much more. Most genetic differences happened later in history. And genetics and diet interactions are hard to pinpoint anyway. But individual endocrinology does matters.
//(I wasn't sure if you were suggesting if sat fat level is highly integrate with activity level. And people have to perfectly follow the paleo diet and lifestyle/activity level, or they'd be on a hard path towards cardiovascular disease.)//

6b. Of course lifestyle factors like smoking matter. And the same diet at high calorie coupled with high activity, is different from it with low calorie, low activity (with same effective calories). I didn't meant to dismiss that. I wasn't suggesting that eating 4000 calories and exercising off 2000, is the same as simply eating 2000 and being lazy.

Edited by JackChristopher, 20 May 2009 - 05:54 PM.


#26 Skötkonung

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 06:43 PM

Skotkonung wrote: "From the literature I've read, endogenous AGE production is responsible for upwards of 70% of total AGE crosslink accumulation in the body, where as exogenous AGEs are ingested at a poor efficiency."

I've been trying to find information on this for a while now. Any references?


There was a study about evolutionary adaptations to cooking that I will try and find to post here. It basically covered how hominins have been using cooking since the evolutionary split between hominins and pongids approximately 7 million years ago, and that a variety of genetic adaptions to heat treated food have occurred as a result. In it was discussion on AGE crosslinks.

You diverge from the paleo/high-fat people (Eades, Stephan, Mark, Duke) on the saturated fat of paleo animals. That's where the prompting came from. They think we ate high SFA megafauna, like bears and wooly mammoths, until we kill them all. We moved on to lean ones later. Supposedly, even Cordain been revising fat intake for paleos upward lately. That's why I was surprised to see your original comment. I have to look deeper into the issue.

I've definitely been avoiding the O-6 PUFAs; I target <20g/day, but I can't get fish oil right now. But I do mostly eat fish (salmon, tuna, mackerel, sardines). I'd eat more but I'm weary about mercury. And I didn't think 6.25oz (1.5g PUFA-O6/tbsp) bottle a week of EVOO was that bad. But overall this is about high-fat than paleo. Of course I'm interested in the underpinnings of both.

The main dietary change would be whether I should consciously increase sat fat (following Duke, Eades etc.) or not worry about it much and pay more attention to optimizing Om3s over Om6s ... you're probably right that the later matter more, regardless of the true FA comps of prehistoric animals. I just need to make sure I have a good source of animal fat vitamins (A,D,K). I've never been into fatty cuts or organs, that was the reason of compromising with dairy and butter despite AGE/pasteurization/Non-paleo issues. Convient snack too.

Hey Jack, you are right in asserting that my primary disagreement is in the saturated fat content of mega fauna. Truthfully, there has been little study on the fatty acid composition of large animals living during the late pleistocene, however the available evidence does not persuade that consuming high quantities of vegetable or dairy based SFA is healthy.

Dr Eades discusses animals of that period and hypothesizes their fat composition by comparing them to known information about polar bears:
http://www.proteinpo...leolithic-diet/

My first issue with his analysis is that he is using a polar bear for the basis of his argument. Polar bears carry significantly more fat than regular brown or black bears due to the cold climate in which they thrive. Cave bears likely lived in a climate much closer to brown or black bears than that of the arctic polar bear. Furthermore, he argues that since polar bears carry much saturated fat, this must be a scalable figure for all large animals: the larger they are, the more fat will occupy a percentage of their body weight and fat stores.

"But we do know that of those left, the larger the animals, the larger the percent body fat. And the larger the percent body fat, the greater the percentage of saturated fat." - Dr Eades

However, if we look at all available animals we will see that is not the case. Elephants, for instance, are fairy lean. Body fat (excess) is often a sign of mistreatment, just as the opposite is also true.

Study: Assessment of Body Condition in Asian Elephants
Attached File  Assessment_of_Body_Condition_in_Asian_Elephants.pdf   400.74KB   28 downloads

Furthermore, humans evolved during the early pleistocene in a temperate Africa. Animals of this region would have no reason to require high quantities of body fat. Humans only left Africa after the Riss glaciation in the middle Palaeolithic during the Eemian Stage, spreading all over the ice-free world.

Dr Eades goes on to mention other animals:
If you look at the fatty acid breakdown of the horse, a large animal (not grain fed) that we are all familiar with that is comparable in size to many of the animals Paleolithic man hunted to extinction, you find a large proportion of saturated fats. Horse fat is about 36 percent saturated fat, 34 percent monounsaturated fat, and the rest polyunsaturated fat. Even rabbits carry over 40 percent of their fat as saturated fat, but rabbits have much less fat per weight than the larger animals.


So the fat composition of large animals like horses is only 36% SFA, and other 64% comes from MUFA and PUFA sources. Seeing as horses contain relatively little bodyfat in proportion to muscle, this comparison is not sufficient to suggest that paleolithic humans ate high quantities of saturated fats. It only suggests that they did eat less saturated fats than the total amount of MUFA and PUFA sources. SFA would have been somewhat limited unless of course they prioritized eating fat over muscle, which I find hard to believe. Furthermore, for the likely moderate levels of SFA being ingested, these people were incredibly mobile and active making the example not particularly relevant to modern people.

Ultimately, I don't feel enough research has been done on these people to start consuming loads of butter, cheese, and coconut oil. In fact, we know the varying levels of lauric, myristic, palmitic, and stearic acids vary so much between plant, dairy, and animal sources that using them interchangeably is not only incorrect, but it could be dangerous to our health. Already we are seeing this occur in individuals who supplement with high doses of Flax instead of Fish oil (ALA versus EPA / DHA).

Attached File  Picture_4.png   32.13KB   7 downloads

Given the Masai see arterial streaking on high levels of SFA. We should probably try and scale our intake to our activity level.

#27 JackChristopher

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Posted 25 May 2009 - 03:26 PM

Cordain and Dr. Feinman on paleo sat fat consumption: http://lavida.kgnu.n...php?show_id=331
And debate on Mark's Daily Apple: http://www.marksdail.../saturated-fat/ http://www.marksdail....com/lean-meat/

I'll be conservative on SFAs for now. I'd rather accidentally eat less nutritious, than accidentally get CVD. But while I limit the SFA total and balance it with MUFA now, I don't know which sources to consume them from. Cordain favors stearic acid from animal SFAs. In terms of specific FAs and foods, which SFAs and MUFAs are best to consume? Many people don't like the plant sources, which is what he recommends.

I'm still on a high-fat diet, but I concentrate on protein more. And I've tried high protein paleo before, I was just endlessly hungry.

Edited by JackChristopher, 25 May 2009 - 03:42 PM.





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