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Questions to Eva Victoria


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#331 Eva Victoria

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 09:11 AM

When you layer sunscreens you really don't have to take anything into consideration because the ingredients will not have time to deactivate each other :) (UVR will do that much faster). It is only relevant when you create a product (mix ingredients so they stay together for a longer period of time, f.ex. storing in a bottle).
Organic filters will decompose in the presence of UVR hence it is very important to reapply them every 2 h. ZnO is photo-stable (Coated TiO2 will also be more photo-stable than organic filters).
If you layer sunscreens then use the organic one first and apply the one that contains inorganic filters on the top.
Additional (photo-stable) anti-oxidants will serve as a second-line-defense.

You are absolutely right about the grease, I looked for some reviews for this brand ( from the states) on makeup alley and quite a lot of users complained about breakouts etc.
Anyway, I swore to myself I will try the Roc, if that's not great, I ' ll stick with the Skinceuticals till you will launch your product.
Good luck with it!

I have one last question and then I will leave you in peace.
Would you please be so kind as to repeat one more time what kind of sunscreens you can layer without one of them becoming ineffective?
I know that avobenzone is compatibel only with coated ZnO but are there any other pittfalls or any other s screens or active ingredients that are incompatibel? Am I right in thinking that tinosorb and meroryl can be worn together?
And also, are there any other skincare ingredients that might affect the working of Tinosorb and/or Meroxyl and/ or mineral sunscreens?
For example, if you use a sunscreen that has uncoated zinc as active ingredient and underneath it you wear a moisturizer which contains aloe gel, will that degrade the zinc?
I realize there are a zillion ingredients out there but if you could tell me just the ones you are aware of that are not good to use in combination with a particular type of sunscreen or sunscreen ingredient, I would be very grateful.

Once again, I wish you all the best with your sunscreen launch.
I am sure that all the followers of this thread will be waiting in line to buy it.



#332 Vanity Fair

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 12:01 PM

Hi Eva, breaking my promise but all these questions of mine seem to be creating new questions.

So what I have learned so far is that you need to reapply organic sunscreens regularly, in order for them to function and not break down and even possibly create free radicals. Even the more photostable ones with Tinosorb or Meroryl.
With ZnO sunscreens you can be a bit more relaxed, provided you don't go swimming otherwise if you apply twice times daily, that should be suffient?
I am talking about an eight hour day with an 25% ZnO sunscreen on the beach or somewhere else outdoors.

Am I correct so far?

But what about daily wear in the city, being outside for maybe half an hour in the park, walking to the stores etc?
Do I still need to reapply every two hours in order to get my protection with the organic ones?
Is there a certain level/time limit when the organic sunscreen has reached it's absorption limit when you are not full out in the sun?

Also, a full teaspoon is a lot to apply, especially every two hours, the Roc instructions tell you that's the quantity you need to use.
If you apply half a teaspoon on your face in the morning, and just for every day wear ( no active sunbathing or outdoor activity for more than half an hour) does that give you adequate UVA protection for most of the day?

And what about the ZnO, will once a day suffice for every day use in the city, so to speak?

Thanks again
VF

I realize it also depends on where you live and the weather on the day but I am talking european summer weather, quite sunny but not too hot, 24 degrees.

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#333 Vanity Fair

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 02:42 PM

To elaborate on my above questions,
as far as you know, is there a saturation point for organic sunscreens? like an add up sum

What I mean is, if you go out in the sun for half an hour, then go indoors and then you need to pop to the shops so will be outside for another half an hour and then go back inside for the rest of the afternoon and then after 4 hours you go outside again for half an hour to sit on a terrace for a coffee, so
all in all you have been exposed to sunlight for less than two hours so will the organic sunscreen still be working, especially with regards to the uva protection?
Or will it breakdown after two hours after application, regardless if you have been inside or outside?

and why is it that you have to apply it half an hour before sunexposure?
does that also apply to the ZnO ones?

many thanks, Liane.

Edited by Vanity Fair, 14 June 2012 - 02:44 PM.


#334 TheFountain

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 10:44 AM

Hey eva, why would Devita solar protection spf 30 darken someone in the sun if it contains 19% zinc as its active just like burnout (which doesn't cause darkening)?

Is it possible something can protect you while giving some color at the same time?

ACTIVE INGREDIENT: Zinc oxide 19%. INACTIVE INGREDIENTS: Aloe barbadensis (certified organic aloe vera gel), Purified Water (aqua), Capric/caprylic triglycerides (derived from coconut oil), Glycerin (vegetable), Hyaluronic acid (vegan source), Glyceryl stearate SE (derived from vegetable oil), Stearic acid, Lecithin phospholipid, Tocopherol (vitamin E), Allantoin, Vitis vinifera (grape) seed extract. Ingredient labeling adheres to international INCI standards.

Edited by TheFountain, 15 June 2012 - 10:49 AM.


#335 Eva Victoria

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 04:12 PM

Organic sunscreens oxidize within about 2h. hence the requirement for reapplication. I would guess that if you spend some time outside and sometime inside then you will add up the total amount of time spent outside and when it reaches 2h then you should reapply. (Though there is oxidation inside as well so this might not be so correct.)
ZnO containing sunscreen can be worn all day without the need for reapplication provided that you don't sweat, wipe it off etc.

Organic sunscreens need to be settled in the film on the surface of the skin to be fully effective. Hence you should wait 20 min before going outside.

If you apply less than the recommended amount then you will have less UVB and UVA protection. F.ex. SPF 30/UVA 10 sunscreen applied 2mg/cm² will give you SPF 30 and UVA 10. If you apply half of the recommended amount you will achieve app. SPF 10 and UVA app. 6.
The truth is that almost nobody applies the amount that determines the SPF and PPD values. But there is a difference between 98% protection and 93% :)

To elaborate on my above questions,
as far as you know, is there a saturation point for organic sunscreens? like an add up sum

What I mean is, if you go out in the sun for half an hour, then go indoors and then you need to pop to the shops so will be outside for another half an hour and then go back inside for the rest of the afternoon and then after 4 hours you go outside again for half an hour to sit on a terrace for a coffee, so
all in all you have been exposed to sunlight for less than two hours so will the organic sunscreen still be working, especially with regards to the uva protection?
Or will it breakdown after two hours after application, regardless if you have been inside or outside?

and why is it that you have to apply it half an hour before sunexposure?
does that also apply to the ZnO ones?

many thanks, Liane.



#336 Eva Victoria

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 04:26 PM

If your skin darkens then it means that it tries to protect itself (naturally) against UVR. So the sunscreen does not protect fully. Though no sunscreen have 100% photo-protection! An SPF 30 (when applied the right amount) will protect 98% against UVB. If you apply less then 2 mg/cm² then you will have much less protection (see the post above).
It can also be that the ZnO has smaller particle size (which is difficult to believe since it seems to be a "natural" sunscreen) and the UVA protection is weak hence the tanning of your skin.
It might be that the UV index is very high (higher than normal that has been this year on the North Hemisphere) and/or you are in the sun for longer periods of time.

The worst case is that the measurements of the sunscreen were not correct and it is wrongly labelled. (It should have a lower SPF value. (In the BASF sunscreen simulator it gives SPF 12.5, PPD 9.6; but this is valid for larger particle size ZnO and the real measurements (Colipa) of each sunscreen that will determine its labelled SPF. Of course these measurements are not real life measurements and don't take into account the surface of the skin etc. So while a sunscreen gives high SPF values in the lab might not perform so well in real life. The skin surface is uneven -while the surface used for testing is even- hence the importance of film-formers in sunscreens).


Hey eva, why would Devita solar protection spf 30 darken someone in the sun if it contains 19% zinc as its active just like burnout (which doesn't cause darkening)?

Is it possible something can protect you while giving some color at the same time?

ACTIVE INGREDIENT: Zinc oxide 19%. INACTIVE INGREDIENTS: Aloe barbadensis (certified organic aloe vera gel), Purified Water (aqua), Capric/caprylic triglycerides (derived from coconut oil), Glycerin (vegetable), Hyaluronic acid (vegan source), Glyceryl stearate SE (derived from vegetable oil), Stearic acid, Lecithin phospholipid, Tocopherol (vitamin E), Allantoin, Vitis vinifera (grape) seed extract. Ingredient labeling adheres to international INCI standards.


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#337 Eva Victoria

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 04:28 PM

The Fontain: you can find some answers here as well about effectiveness of sunscreens.

Thank you for the name of the Roc sunscreen. Indeed they use both Tinosorb filters :)

Natural sunscreens use TiO2 and/or ZnO. Both are inherently photo-stable, though TiO2 tends to oxidize esp. the uncoated version. It is advisable to coat ZnO as well for increased stability. In natural sunscreens one cannot use silicone coating so that will leave Stearic Acid. But the problem is not this, the problem is that these filters are dispersed in natural oils that themselves oxidize in the presence of UVR. They are not allowed to use BHA and BHT as anti-oxidants either. So what will that leave the formulator? Inorganic filters with natural oils.
How good is that for your skin when after a few hours (or less) the oils have oxidized?
Secondly, how elegant can a formulation be with oil (and grease)? :)

I personally am very much for ZnO (preferably silicone coated) as a UVA protector for everyday use. I do not recommend using products with silicones unless it is a sunscreen. (Though there is nothing wrong with linear- and most branched type silicones). Silicones will provide very elegant texture that will motivate the user to apply the cream regularly. Silicones (don't oxidize and) will also enhance film-formation of the product. This is crucial for a sunscreen to be evenly distributed on the (uneven) surface of the skin hence it will enhance its effect and will contribute to better protection.
Film-formers can and should be used additionally (depending on formualtion). But too much film-former can contribute to acne in some idividual. They are also very shiny on the skin and can contribute to "balling" effect that will make an additional product application difficult (like make-up). Silicones will aid using less film-formers and as a bonus a more elegant finish. Silicones also contribute to better water-resistance and light moisturization (depending on type it can also provide more subtle moisture) that will enhance the skin's natural moisture barrier. (This is of course not exclusive to silicones and this is achieved with natural oils, waxes and esters also).
There is also another aspect that one should consider when it comes to application of sunscreens: sunscreen should stay where it is applied. It should not migrate. Oils will not prevent this. Silicone oils and elastomers will provide emulsions that have a greater adherence to the surface of the skin.
Silicones will not absorb into the skin because of their higher molecular weight, hence the actives (sunscreen agents) will stay on the surface of the skin. It will result in less irritation of the skin and film-forming where the sunscreen agents will stay in the film and will be able to do their job more efficiently. Hence, silicones contribute to greater SPF and PPD. This will also result in the fact that less sunscreen agents will be needed to achieved a desired SPF/PPD. It results also in milder sunscreen products and less skin irritation. This is especially valid when formulating with organic sunscreens.
(Natural waxees will also provide more stay-put suncreens and better film-forming than oils. But the elegant texture will be missing from most natural waxes. Some natural waxes are almost as "perfect in this sence" as silicones (elastomers, silicone waxes) but they are far too expensive for lower price-range and for mid-market type of sunscreen formulations.)
A good solution would be (from a formulators point of view) is to use some silicones in a sunscreen formulation (that is meant to be used everyday) and combine them with natural emulsifiers (like Sorbitan Olivate, Cetearyl olivate, Arachidyl Alcohol, Behenyl Alcohol, Arachidyl Glucoside) and natural polymers along with an additional film-former. This will provide a Si/W formulation with a very elegant texture that perceived as quick-breaking on the skin with an extremely light watery after-feel that is absorbed fast into a luxurious and elegant finish. These formulations are of course little waterproof hence they should be used as an everyday product and not for the beach or where more heavy-duty sunscreens are needed.
On the other hand, sunscreens that are W/Si will be thinner and will be more water-resistant. They will need (several) silicone emulsifiers. (Natural polymers and most natural emulsifiers will not be compatible with a formulation like this). (Chanel UV essentiel SPF 50, La Mer UV-fluid SPF 30, Clarins UV-Plus SPF 40, LRP Anthelios Fluid Extreme SPF 30-50+ are all these type of formulations).



#338 TheFountain

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 02:03 AM

If your skin darkens then it means that it tries to protect itself (naturally) against UVR. So the sunscreen does not protect fully. Though no sunscreen have 100% photo-protection! An SPF 30 (when applied the right amount) will protect 98% against UVB. If you apply less then 2 mg/cm² then you will have much less protection (see the post above).
It can also be that the ZnO has smaller particle size (which is difficult to believe since it seems to be a "natural" sunscreen) and the UVA protection is weak hence the tanning of your skin.
It might be that the UV index is very high (higher than normal that has been this year on the North Hemisphere) and/or you are in the sun for longer periods of time.

The worst case is that the measurements of the sunscreen were not correct and it is wrongly labelled. (It should have a lower SPF value. (In the BASF sunscreen simulator it gives SPF 12.5, PPD 9.6; but this is valid for larger particle size ZnO and the real measurements (Colipa) of each sunscreen that will determine its labelled SPF. Of course these measurements are not real life measurements and don't take into account the surface of the skin etc. So while a sunscreen gives high SPF values in the lab might not perform so well in real life. The skin surface is uneven -while the surface used for testing is even- hence the importance of film-formers in sunscreens).


Hey eva, why would Devita solar protection spf 30 darken someone in the sun if it contains 19% zinc as its active just like burnout (which doesn't cause darkening)?

Is it possible something can protect you while giving some color at the same time?

ACTIVE INGREDIENT: Zinc oxide 19%. INACTIVE INGREDIENTS: Aloe barbadensis (certified organic aloe vera gel), Purified Water (aqua), Capric/caprylic triglycerides (derived from coconut oil), Glycerin (vegetable), Hyaluronic acid (vegan source), Glyceryl stearate SE (derived from vegetable oil), Stearic acid, Lecithin phospholipid, Tocopherol (vitamin E), Allantoin, Vitis vinifera (grape) seed extract. Ingredient labeling adheres to international INCI standards.


So you don't think that something can both slightly darken and protect at the same time? Could any of the other ingredients be interfering with the zinc oxide absorption? This is an extremely light sunscreen for what it purports to be. Also, burnout seems to prevent darkening without re-application.

#339 Eva Victoria

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 10:19 AM

The only ingredients that I see here that can interfere with UVR is Aloe Vera.
Again, colouring of the skin means that it produces melanin to protect itself against UVR (mainly UVB). But no sunscreen can protect 100% against UVR either. So if you spend time in the sun even though wearing (a photo-stable, broadspectrum) sunscreen you will get some colour (tan).

If your skin darkens then it means that it tries to protect itself (naturally) against UVR. So the sunscreen does not protect fully. Though no sunscreen have 100% photo-protection! An SPF 30 (when applied the right amount) will protect 98% against UVB. If you apply less then 2 mg/cm² then you will have much less protection (see the post above).
It can also be that the ZnO has smaller particle size (which is difficult to believe since it seems to be a "natural" sunscreen) and the UVA protection is weak hence the tanning of your skin.
It might be that the UV index is very high (higher than normal that has been this year on the North Hemisphere) and/or you are in the sun for longer periods of time.

The worst case is that the measurements of the sunscreen were not correct and it is wrongly labelled. (It should have a lower SPF value. (In the BASF sunscreen simulator it gives SPF 12.5, PPD 9.6; but this is valid for larger particle size ZnO and the real measurements (Colipa) of each sunscreen that will determine its labelled SPF. Of course these measurements are not real life measurements and don't take into account the surface of the skin etc. So while a sunscreen gives high SPF values in the lab might not perform so well in real life. The skin surface is uneven -while the surface used for testing is even- hence the importance of film-formers in sunscreens).


Hey eva, why would Devita solar protection spf 30 darken someone in the sun if it contains 19% zinc as its active just like burnout (which doesn't cause darkening)?

Is it possible something can protect you while giving some color at the same time?

ACTIVE INGREDIENT: Zinc oxide 19%. INACTIVE INGREDIENTS: Aloe barbadensis (certified organic aloe vera gel), Purified Water (aqua), Capric/caprylic triglycerides (derived from coconut oil), Glycerin (vegetable), Hyaluronic acid (vegan source), Glyceryl stearate SE (derived from vegetable oil), Stearic acid, Lecithin phospholipid, Tocopherol (vitamin E), Allantoin, Vitis vinifera (grape) seed extract. Ingredient labeling adheres to international INCI standards.


So you don't think that something can both slightly darken and protect at the same time? Could any of the other ingredients be interfering with the zinc oxide absorption? This is an extremely light sunscreen for what it purports to be. Also, burnout seems to prevent darkening without re-application.



#340 TheFountain

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 04:11 PM

The only ingredients that I see here that can interfere with UVR is Aloe Vera.
Again, colouring of the skin means that it produces melanin to protect itself against UVR (mainly UVB). But no sunscreen can protect 100% against UVR either. So if you spend time in the sun even though wearing (a photo-stable, broadspectrum) sunscreen you will get some colour (tan).

If your skin darkens then it means that it tries to protect itself (naturally) against UVR. So the sunscreen does not protect fully. Though no sunscreen have 100% photo-protection! An SPF 30 (when applied the right amount) will protect 98% against UVB. If you apply less then 2 mg/cm² then you will have much less protection (see the post above).
It can also be that the ZnO has smaller particle size (which is difficult to believe since it seems to be a "natural" sunscreen) and the UVA protection is weak hence the tanning of your skin.
It might be that the UV index is very high (higher than normal that has been this year on the North Hemisphere) and/or you are in the sun for longer periods of time.

The worst case is that the measurements of the sunscreen were not correct and it is wrongly labelled. (It should have a lower SPF value. (In the BASF sunscreen simulator it gives SPF 12.5, PPD 9.6; but this is valid for larger particle size ZnO and the real measurements (Colipa) of each sunscreen that will determine its labelled SPF. Of course these measurements are not real life measurements and don't take into account the surface of the skin etc. So while a sunscreen gives high SPF values in the lab might not perform so well in real life. The skin surface is uneven -while the surface used for testing is even- hence the importance of film-formers in sunscreens).


Hey eva, why would Devita solar protection spf 30 darken someone in the sun if it contains 19% zinc as its active just like burnout (which doesn't cause darkening)?

Is it possible something can protect you while giving some color at the same time?

ACTIVE INGREDIENT: Zinc oxide 19%. INACTIVE INGREDIENTS: Aloe barbadensis (certified organic aloe vera gel), Purified Water (aqua), Capric/caprylic triglycerides (derived from coconut oil), Glycerin (vegetable), Hyaluronic acid (vegan source), Glyceryl stearate SE (derived from vegetable oil), Stearic acid, Lecithin phospholipid, Tocopherol (vitamin E), Allantoin, Vitis vinifera (grape) seed extract. Ingredient labeling adheres to international INCI standards.


So you don't think that something can both slightly darken and protect at the same time? Could any of the other ingredients be interfering with the zinc oxide absorption? This is an extremely light sunscreen for what it purports to be. Also, burnout seems to prevent darkening without re-application.


Yea, you're absolutely right about that. I think burnout just takes a little longer to produce that effect than this one. Someone should take a closer look at the devita, maybe have it analyzed to see if the amount of zinc is right. I love the texture of this particular sunscreen though. I might use this in winter and the burnout in summer.

#341 Brafarality

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 06:59 PM

If your skin darkens then it means that it tries to protect itself (naturally) against UVR. So the sunscreen does not protect fully. Though no sunscreen have 100% photo-protection! An SPF 30 (when applied the right amount) will protect 98% against UVB. If you apply less then 2 mg/cm² then you will have much less protection (see the post above).
It can also be that the ZnO has smaller particle size (which is difficult to believe since it seems to be a "natural" sunscreen) and the UVA protection is weak hence the tanning of your skin.
It might be that the UV index is very high (higher than normal that has been this year on the North Hemisphere) and/or you are in the sun for longer periods of time.

The worst case is that the measurements of the sunscreen were not correct and it is wrongly labelled. (It should have a lower SPF value. (In the BASF sunscreen simulator it gives SPF 12.5, PPD 9.6; but this is valid for larger particle size ZnO and the real measurements (Colipa) of each sunscreen that will determine its labelled SPF. Of course these measurements are not real life measurements and don't take into account the surface of the skin etc. So while a sunscreen gives high SPF values in the lab might not perform so well in real life. The skin surface is uneven -while the surface used for testing is even- hence the importance of film-formers in sunscreens).


Hey eva, why would Devita solar protection spf 30 darken someone in the sun if it contains 19% zinc as its active just like burnout (which doesn't cause darkening)?

Is it possible something can protect you while giving some color at the same time?

ACTIVE INGREDIENT: Zinc oxide 19%. INACTIVE INGREDIENTS: Aloe barbadensis (certified organic aloe vera gel), Purified Water (aqua), Capric/caprylic triglycerides (derived from coconut oil), Glycerin (vegetable), Hyaluronic acid (vegan source), Glyceryl stearate SE (derived from vegetable oil), Stearic acid, Lecithin phospholipid, Tocopherol (vitamin E), Allantoin, Vitis vinifera (grape) seed extract. Ingredient labeling adheres to international INCI standards.


So you don't think that something can both slightly darken and protect at the same time? Could any of the other ingredients be interfering with the zinc oxide absorption? This is an extremely light sunscreen for what it purports to be. Also, burnout seems to prevent darkening without re-application.

It's probably related to the dispersion of the zinc oxide particles in the sunscreen.
It may be a generalization, but I think the physical sunblock particles such as ZnO are not evenly dispersed in organic/natural sunscreens. They clump, settle, etc., and are hard to redisperse since sunscreen fluid is usually thick and viscous, so even a good vigorous shake might not do the trick (Realizing the innuendos here. Please forgive. Cant think of a rephrase).
I have become a believer, as far as sunblocks go, in less is more if the product is made by Neutrogena, Olay, Coppertone, or one of the more established brands:
That is, 10% zinc oxide in a Coppertone sunblock is far more protective than 25% in an organic brand.

I guess they are just better at making them, with decades of experience, formulating them, and thus develop the recipe with all the concerns of sun protection in mind, whereas organic companies mix a few 'organic' bases and slap in/on the zinc oxide and voila, sunblock is born.
That is a radical simplification, of course, but seems to be the trend.
This only applies to sunscreens, which require knowledge and experience to formulate effectively, and not at all to foods and other health products, where organic is usually, though not always, best.

[And, to mention in a follow up edit: There are reports from Consumer Reports and the FDA and a bunch of other sources that may suggest otherwise, but the problem is the people who conduct these tests just don't 'get it'. One needs to be a true heliophobe to be attuned enough to measure the effect of a sunblock, and to measure how well it endures heat, abuse, expiration, etc. So, reports that suggest otherwise should be viewed with suspicion, since I usually find big problems with the way they go about testing each sunblock. They are doing it in the "I want to go to the beach and want my sunscreen to protect me from burning and Ill reapply it every few hours". These people are not counting every UV beam that hits them. That is why the reports are so skewered. And, I could be wrong, but there is a major bias toward natural/organic products in the cosmetic/health industries, and with good reason, so there could be a placebo effect on testers who are not genuinely attuned to the effects of sun on their skin and are more looking for overall impressions. I know because I have tried so many types of sunscreens and find the 'brand names' more effective, since I look closely at my face and am definitely aware when the sun has affected me. Wow, that was a long rant. Sorry!]

Edited by Brafarality, 16 June 2012 - 07:10 PM.


#342 TheFountain

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 09:56 AM

If your skin darkens then it means that it tries to protect itself (naturally) against UVR. So the sunscreen does not protect fully. Though no sunscreen have 100% photo-protection! An SPF 30 (when applied the right amount) will protect 98% against UVB. If you apply less then 2 mg/cm² then you will have much less protection (see the post above).
It can also be that the ZnO has smaller particle size (which is difficult to believe since it seems to be a "natural" sunscreen) and the UVA protection is weak hence the tanning of your skin.
It might be that the UV index is very high (higher than normal that has been this year on the North Hemisphere) and/or you are in the sun for longer periods of time.

The worst case is that the measurements of the sunscreen were not correct and it is wrongly labelled. (It should have a lower SPF value. (In the BASF sunscreen simulator it gives SPF 12.5, PPD 9.6; but this is valid for larger particle size ZnO and the real measurements (Colipa) of each sunscreen that will determine its labelled SPF. Of course these measurements are not real life measurements and don't take into account the surface of the skin etc. So while a sunscreen gives high SPF values in the lab might not perform so well in real life. The skin surface is uneven -while the surface used for testing is even- hence the importance of film-formers in sunscreens).


Hey eva, why would Devita solar protection spf 30 darken someone in the sun if it contains 19% zinc as its active just like burnout (which doesn't cause darkening)?

Is it possible something can protect you while giving some color at the same time?

ACTIVE INGREDIENT: Zinc oxide 19%. INACTIVE INGREDIENTS: Aloe barbadensis (certified organic aloe vera gel), Purified Water (aqua), Capric/caprylic triglycerides (derived from coconut oil), Glycerin (vegetable), Hyaluronic acid (vegan source), Glyceryl stearate SE (derived from vegetable oil), Stearic acid, Lecithin phospholipid, Tocopherol (vitamin E), Allantoin, Vitis vinifera (grape) seed extract. Ingredient labeling adheres to international INCI standards.


So you don't think that something can both slightly darken and protect at the same time? Could any of the other ingredients be interfering with the zinc oxide absorption? This is an extremely light sunscreen for what it purports to be. Also, burnout seems to prevent darkening without re-application.

It's probably related to the dispersion of the zinc oxide particles in the sunscreen.
It may be a generalization, but I think the physical sunblock particles such as ZnO are not evenly dispersed in organic/natural sunscreens. They clump, settle, etc., and are hard to redisperse since sunscreen fluid is usually thick and viscous, so even a good vigorous shake might not do the trick (Realizing the innuendos here. Please forgive. Cant think of a rephrase).
I have become a believer, as far as sunblocks go, in less is more if the product is made by Neutrogena, Olay, Coppertone, or one of the more established brands:
That is, 10% zinc oxide in a Coppertone sunblock is far more protective than 25% in an organic brand.

I guess they are just better at making them, with decades of experience, formulating them, and thus develop the recipe with all the concerns of sun protection in mind, whereas organic companies mix a few 'organic' bases and slap in/on the zinc oxide and voila, sunblock is born.
That is a radical simplification, of course, but seems to be the trend.
This only applies to sunscreens, which require knowledge and experience to formulate effectively, and not at all to foods and other health products, where organic is usually, though not always, best.

[And, to mention in a follow up edit: There are reports from Consumer Reports and the FDA and a bunch of other sources that may suggest otherwise, but the problem is the people who conduct these tests just don't 'get it'. One needs to be a true heliophobe to be attuned enough to measure the effect of a sunblock, and to measure how well it endures heat, abuse, expiration, etc. So, reports that suggest otherwise should be viewed with suspicion, since I usually find big problems with the way they go about testing each sunblock. They are doing it in the "I want to go to the beach and want my sunscreen to protect me from burning and Ill reapply it every few hours". These people are not counting every UV beam that hits them. That is why the reports are so skewered. And, I could be wrong, but there is a major bias toward natural/organic products in the cosmetic/health industries, and with good reason, so there could be a placebo effect on testers who are not genuinely attuned to the effects of sun on their skin and are more looking for overall impressions. I know because I have tried so many types of sunscreens and find the 'brand names' more effective, since I look closely at my face and am definitely aware when the sun has affected me. Wow, that was a long rant. Sorry!]


Have you ever tried burnout? It seems to do the trick, but in a lighter coating it can certainly lead to a darkening effect still. Devita also has a very unique texture for a sunscreen in that it doesn't feel like a sunscreen at all before or after application. It feels rather like a light moisturizer actually. It could very well work but I might have applied it in too thin a layer. It seems the darkening effects are the exception rather than the rule with this sunscreen.

#343 Brafarality

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:43 PM

If your skin darkens then it means that it tries to protect itself (naturally) against UVR. So the sunscreen does not protect fully. Though no sunscreen have 100% photo-protection! An SPF 30 (when applied the right amount) will protect 98% against UVB. If you apply less then 2 mg/cm² then you will have much less protection (see the post above).
It can also be that the ZnO has smaller particle size (which is difficult to believe since it seems to be a "natural" sunscreen) and the UVA protection is weak hence the tanning of your skin.
It might be that the UV index is very high (higher than normal that has been this year on the North Hemisphere) and/or you are in the sun for longer periods of time.

The worst case is that the measurements of the sunscreen were not correct and it is wrongly labelled. (It should have a lower SPF value. (In the BASF sunscreen simulator it gives SPF 12.5, PPD 9.6; but this is valid for larger particle size ZnO and the real measurements (Colipa) of each sunscreen that will determine its labelled SPF. Of course these measurements are not real life measurements and don't take into account the surface of the skin etc. So while a sunscreen gives high SPF values in the lab might not perform so well in real life. The skin surface is uneven -while the surface used for testing is even- hence the importance of film-formers in sunscreens).


Hey eva, why would Devita solar protection spf 30 darken someone in the sun if it contains 19% zinc as its active just like burnout (which doesn't cause darkening)?

Is it possible something can protect you while giving some color at the same time?

ACTIVE INGREDIENT: Zinc oxide 19%. INACTIVE INGREDIENTS: Aloe barbadensis (certified organic aloe vera gel), Purified Water (aqua), Capric/caprylic triglycerides (derived from coconut oil), Glycerin (vegetable), Hyaluronic acid (vegan source), Glyceryl stearate SE (derived from vegetable oil), Stearic acid, Lecithin phospholipid, Tocopherol (vitamin E), Allantoin, Vitis vinifera (grape) seed extract. Ingredient labeling adheres to international INCI standards.


So you don't think that something can both slightly darken and protect at the same time? Could any of the other ingredients be interfering with the zinc oxide absorption? This is an extremely light sunscreen for what it purports to be. Also, burnout seems to prevent darkening without re-application.

It's probably related to the dispersion of the zinc oxide particles in the sunscreen.
It may be a generalization, but I think the physical sunblock particles such as ZnO are not evenly dispersed in organic/natural sunscreens. They clump, settle, etc., and are hard to redisperse since sunscreen fluid is usually thick and viscous, so even a good vigorous shake might not do the trick (Realizing the innuendos here. Please forgive. Cant think of a rephrase).
I have become a believer, as far as sunblocks go, in less is more if the product is made by Neutrogena, Olay, Coppertone, or one of the more established brands:
That is, 10% zinc oxide in a Coppertone sunblock is far more protective than 25% in an organic brand.

I guess they are just better at making them, with decades of experience, formulating them, and thus develop the recipe with all the concerns of sun protection in mind, whereas organic companies mix a few 'organic' bases and slap in/on the zinc oxide and voila, sunblock is born.
That is a radical simplification, of course, but seems to be the trend.
This only applies to sunscreens, which require knowledge and experience to formulate effectively, and not at all to foods and other health products, where organic is usually, though not always, best.

[And, to mention in a follow up edit: There are reports from Consumer Reports and the FDA and a bunch of other sources that may suggest otherwise, but the problem is the people who conduct these tests just don't 'get it'. One needs to be a true heliophobe to be attuned enough to measure the effect of a sunblock, and to measure how well it endures heat, abuse, expiration, etc. So, reports that suggest otherwise should be viewed with suspicion, since I usually find big problems with the way they go about testing each sunblock. They are doing it in the "I want to go to the beach and want my sunscreen to protect me from burning and Ill reapply it every few hours". These people are not counting every UV beam that hits them. That is why the reports are so skewered. And, I could be wrong, but there is a major bias toward natural/organic products in the cosmetic/health industries, and with good reason, so there could be a placebo effect on testers who are not genuinely attuned to the effects of sun on their skin and are more looking for overall impressions. I know because I have tried so many types of sunscreens and find the 'brand names' more effective, since I look closely at my face and am definitely aware when the sun has affected me. Wow, that was a long rant. Sorry!]


Have you ever tried burnout? It seems to do the trick, but in a lighter coating it can certainly lead to a darkening effect still. Devita also has a very unique texture for a sunscreen in that it doesn't feel like a sunscreen at all before or after application. It feels rather like a light moisturizer actually. It could very well work but I might have applied it in too thin a layer. It seems the darkening effects are the exception rather than the rule with this sunscreen.

Never heard of it before reading the recent posts on this thread, but always looking for a better sunscreen, so I will definitely check it out! Thanx!

#344 mustardseed41

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:01 PM

have become a believer, as far as sunblocks go, in less is more if the product is made by Neutrogena, Olay, Coppertone, or one of the more established brands:
That is, 10% zinc oxide in a Coppertone sunblock is far more protective than 25% in an organic brand.


This makes no sense

#345 Brafarality

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 04:48 PM

have become a believer, as far as sunblocks go, in less is more if the product is made by Neutrogena, Olay, Coppertone, or one of the more established brands:
That is, 10% zinc oxide in a Coppertone sunblock is far more protective than 25% in an organic brand.


This makes no sense

It is just my realization from being a huge sun-avoider and being acutely aware of how much the sun affects me depending on time of day/year, clouds, and type of sunblock. Coppertone, Banana Boat and Neutrogena have eons of experience with formulations and measuring clinical effectiveness. This helps huge with sunscreens, whereas it meand much less for health or wrinkle reduction, and things similarly less measurable than UV penetration and sunburn intensity.

There are exceptions, but companies that focus on the organic ingredients in their skin products typically are much less experienced at formulation and at evenly dispersing the active ingredients, such as zinc oxide for sun protection, or whatever the case may be. I think the cosmetic industry definitely has some evil and sinister stuff going on, but the big players are very good at doing certain things well. Whether or not they are doing those things well with the finest ingredients is a valid but separate argument.

For example, Ive made the mistake of wearing an organic/natural inclined sunblock while being out in nearly peak sun for several hours. It had something like 15% zinc oxide or maybe more. Wasnt a huge burn, but I got something from that day of exposure. However, went hill climbing (1000 foot mountain) in near peak sun coated in a major label sunblock which had around 8% zinc oxide (could have even been 4-6%) and I got nothing, not one trace of a burn. I washed it off later in the day and was cool faced and did not exhibit a trace of sun exposure. Both days were sunny and both were in May area.

I really think its all about particle dispersion. The upstart organic labels mean well and I am a vegan of 25 years and get organic whenever I can DIETWISE, but am for the moment sworn off organic skin products since they have failed me time and again.

I forget all product names, so my info is weak and debatable. I apologize for that. Cheers!

#346 Vanity Fair

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 09:59 PM

Aqua                                                   Water
 
Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride                   Softener, remoisturiser,
 
C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate                         Softener, remoisturiser
 
Titanium Dioxide                                  UV filter
 
Polyglyceryl-3 Polyricinoleate                Emulsifier
 
Diethylamino Hydroxybenzoyl Hexyl       UV filter      
Benzoate                  
 
Isopropyl Isostearate                              Softener, remoisturiser
 
Sorbeth-30                                            Stabiliser
 
Ethylhexyl Triazone                               UV filter
 
Glycerine                                               Moisturiser
 
Butyrospermum Parkii Butter                  Softener, remoisturiser
 
Polyhydroxystearic Acid                         Suspending agent for titanium dioxide
 
Candelilla Cera                                       Stabiliser
 
Phenoxyethanol                                      Preservative
 
Magnesium Sulfate                                 Stabiliser
 
Theobroma Cacao Butter                         Softener, remoisturiser
 
Caprylyl Glycol                                       Softener
 
Aluminum Stearate                                 Suspending agent for titanium dioxide
 
Alumina                                                 Suspending agent for

Hi Eva,

How are you? Still very busy I can immagine.
I was flicking through this thread and came across Solaveil,manufactured by Croda.
I would give you the link to their webside but I believe I am not entiteled to put any links in my posts yet.
And the above is a sunscreen product that apparently uses this sunscreen technology.
Looking on the internet it seems to have existed for quite a while but not a lot of manufactures use it as I could hardly find a sunscreen product with Solaveil when I googled it.

If and when You have time maybe you could go on the Solaveil/Croda website and tell me your thoughts on their UvA protection claim.

Many thanks and take care
VF ( from a very sunny italy

#347 Vanity Fair

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 10:09 PM

http://www.croda.com...57&r=265&p=3299

This is the sunscreen ingredient I meant, Solaveil speXtra

What do you think about the broad UvA protection claim?

Edited by Vanity Fair, 23 June 2012 - 10:11 PM.


#348 Vanity Fair

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 10:24 PM

Also when you google it it is hailed by some in the industry as being very promising.
However, there seem to be hardly any sunscreen brands containing this solaveil spextra. How come?

#349 Vanity Fair

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:10 AM

Aqua, Zinc Oxide, Cetearyl Isononanoate, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Butylene Glycol, Titanium Dioxide, Glycerin, Polyglyceryl-2 Dipolyhydroxystearate, Simmondsia Chinensis Seed Oil, Butyrospermum Parkii Butter, Glyceryl Oleate, Tocopheryl Acetate, Cera Alba, Magnesium Sulfate, Panthenol, Rosmarinus Officinalis Extract, Aluminum Hydroxide, Disodium Uridine Phosphate, Ethyl Ferulate, Ethylhexylglycerin, Helianthus Annuus Seed Oil, Polyglyceryl-5 Trioleate, Stearic Acid.

Hi Eva,

What are your thoughts about this one as a formulation?
I realize you can not comment on it's protection claims as it does not give the percentages of ZnO and Tno but from as far as you can tell, are they at least coated? And what about the formula as a whole? Should it feel quite pleasant?


#350 Vanity Fair

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:21 AM

Aqua, Octocrylene, Alcohol, Glycerin, Butyl Methoxydibenzoylmethane, Titanium Dioxide, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Dibutyl Adipate, Vp/Eicosene Copolymer, Diethylhexyl Butamido Triazone, Tocopheryl Acetate, Panthenol, Bisabolol, Lactoperoxidase, Lecithin, Superoxide Dismutase, Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, Bis-Ethylhexyloxyphenol Methoxyphenyl Triazine, Carbomer, Disodium Edta, Ethylhexylglycerin, Pentadecalactone, Silica, Dimethicone.

This sunscreen brand claims to be needing once a day application and also claims 93 % protection of the whole Uva specrum.
What are your thoughts about these sort of claims, especially considering that they also use organic/chemical active ingredients?
I will give you also the ingredients lists of their other products as they all vary a bit but all claim to be a one a say application.
How valid are these claims?
I won't be buying them but am very curious to know your thoughts about these products.

Hope you are well,
VF

#351 Vanity Fair

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:24 AM

Aqua, Alcohol, Propylene Glycol, Lecithin, Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate, Methylene Bis-Benzotriazolyl Tetramethylbutylphenol, Butyl Methoxydibenzoylmethane, Titanium Dioxide, Sodium Acrylates Copolymer, Boron Nitride, Pentylene Glycol, Ectoin, Lactoperoxidase, Superoxide Dismutase, Tocopheryl Acetate, Aluminum Hydroxide, Decyl Glucoside, Disodium Edta, Glycerin, Paraffinum Liquidum, Ppg-1 Trideceth-6, Stearic Acid, Xanthan Gum.

This is the one for the face spf 30, which also says to be containing a very potent antioxidant

#352 Eva Victoria

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:26 AM

Aqua Water

Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride Softener, remoisturiser,

C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate Softener, remoisturiser

Titanium Dioxide UV filter

Polyglyceryl-3 Polyricinoleate Emulsifier

Diethylamino Hydroxybenzoyl Hexyl UV filter
Benzoate

Isopropyl Isostearate Softener, remoisturiser

Sorbeth-30 Stabiliser

Ethylhexyl Triazone UV filter

Glycerine Moisturiser

Butyrospermum Parkii Butter Softener, remoisturiser

Polyhydroxystearic Acid Suspending agent for titanium dioxide

Candelilla Cera Stabiliser

Phenoxyethanol Preservative

Magnesium Sulfate Stabiliser

Theobroma Cacao Butter Softener, remoisturiser

Caprylyl Glycol Softener

Aluminum Stearate Suspending agent for titanium dioxide

Alumina Suspending agent for

Hi Eva,

How are you? Still very busy I can immagine.
I was flicking through this thread and came across Solaveil,manufactured by Croda.
I would give you the link to their webside but I believe I am not entiteled to put any links in my posts yet.
And the above is a sunscreen product that apparently uses this sunscreen technology.
Looking on the internet it seems to have existed for quite a while but not a lot of manufactures use it as I could hardly find a sunscreen product with Solaveil when I googled it.

If and when You have time maybe you could go on the Solaveil/Croda website and tell me your thoughts on their UvA protection claim.

Many thanks and take care
VF ( from a very sunny italy


Hi Vanity Fair,

I know the Solaveil and Spectraveil line from Croda (previously Uniqema) very well and have formulated some sunscreens and daycremes with these ZnO and TiO2 ingredients. Theydisperse different particle size of either of TiO2 or ZnO to provide better protection through the UV spectrum.
The reason why few manufacturers use these dispersions are that in the US BASF holds a patent on all ZnO containing products (the ZnO has to be Z-Cote); in the EU ZnO is not an approved sunscreen (only a colourant and anti-inflammatory ingredient in baby care). But after the launch of the new TiO2 dispersion that comply with the EU recommendations there are more and more manufacturers who use the Solaveil T line from Croda in the EU.
Previously their ZnO and TiO2 dispersions were also found in "natural" lines in the EU.
Crod also owns Optisol that is a magnesium coated high particle sized TiO2 providing protection up to 385 nm. (Soltan products use it). I also believe that Soltan uses other Solaveil T products from Croda.

#353 Vanity Fair

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:30 AM

Aqua, Propylene Glycol, Alcohol, Lecithin, Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate, Butyl Methoxydibenzoylmethane, Titanium Dioxide, Methylene Bis-Benzotriazolyl Tetramethylbutylphenol, Sodium Acrylates Copolymer, Dimethicone, Pentylene Glycol, Tocopheryl Acetate, Aluminum Hydroxide, Decyl Glucoside, Disodium Edta, Paraffinum Liquidum, Pentadecalactone, Ppg-1 Trideceth-6, Stearic Acid, Xanthan Gum.

And the last one, which to me seems to be containing Tinosorb and avobenzone, so once again how can they claim one a day application?

#354 Eva Victoria

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:35 AM

http://www.croda.com...57&r=265&p=3299

This is the sunscreen ingredient I meant, Solaveil speXtra

What do you think about the broad UvA protection claim?


They claim that they fulfill the EU recommendations: Sunscreen products have a UVA protection factor (UVAPF) that is at least 1/3 the SPF and a critical wavelength of at least 370 nm.

#355 Vanity Fair

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:36 AM

Hi eva,


Thanks for your reply with regards to the solaveil spextra.
So there is no chance of tracking down a sunscreen line that uses this ?


#356 Eva Victoria

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:38 AM

Aqua, Zinc Oxide, Cetearyl Isononanoate, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Butylene Glycol, Titanium Dioxide, Glycerin, Polyglyceryl-2 Dipolyhydroxystearate, Simmondsia Chinensis Seed Oil, Butyrospermum Parkii Butter, Glyceryl Oleate, Tocopheryl Acetate, Cera Alba, Magnesium Sulfate, Panthenol, Rosmarinus Officinalis Extract, Aluminum Hydroxide, Disodium Uridine Phosphate, Ethyl Ferulate, Ethylhexylglycerin, Helianthus Annuus Seed Oil, Polyglyceryl-5 Trioleate, Stearic Acid.

Hi Eva,

What are your thoughts about this one as a formulation?
I realize you can not comment on it's protection claims as it does not give the percentages of ZnO and Tno but from as far as you can tell, are they at least coated? And what about the formula as a whole? Should it feel quite pleasant?



It is very hard to tell. It is a more "natural" formulation. My experience is that sunscreens always do well with a bit of silicone elastomer for more pleasant perception of application and more pleasing esthetics as an end result.

#357 Vanity Fair

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:39 AM

Hi Eva,

Oh, i might have misinterpreted the diagramm wrongly then, I thought it went up to OVER 450 nm or is that not possible?

Ps i am still talking about the solaveil spextra

Edited by Vanity Fair, 24 June 2012 - 10:42 AM.


#358 Eva Victoria

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:40 AM

Hi eva,


Thanks for your reply with regards to the solaveil spextra.
So there is no chance of tracking down a sunscreen line that uses this ?


Unless the manufacturer specifies the origin of TiO2 or ZnO, no. But declaring where your raw materiel comes from is giving away your trade secrete. I don't see why producers of finished products would do that.
There is a possibility that LRP Mineral Sunscreen (currently only available in the US) uses Solaveil Spextra (it contains 11% TiO2 and claims SPF 50 and UVA 20).

Edited by Eva Victoria, 24 June 2012 - 10:43 AM.


#359 Eva Victoria

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:44 AM

Hi Eva,

Oh, i might have misinterpreted the diagramm wrongly then, I thought it went up to OVER 450 nm or is that not possible?

Ps i am still talking about the solaveil spextra


So am I :) The other Solaveil products do not protect more than up to 340nm when the dispersion was of TiO2. But the Solaveil ZnO products protect up to 375 nm.

#360 Vanity Fair

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:45 AM

Maybe because they might be proud of using it, just as for example all the l' oreal family products advertise meroryl sl/sl on their products or in the states it sometimes says, contains helioplex




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