29 replies to this topic

[dumbdumb]

I would like to preface by saying that, even though this message may seem like a ramble born of abject inebriation (which it is, I'll admit) it does have a definite point, a concrete question, and I suppose my future happiness might owe a great deal to your gracious assistance in answering that question.

I appreciate that this forum is meant for men and women who are pioneers of cognitive evolution spurred by pharmaceutical innovation. I really am sorry to clutter up and belittle such a forum as this with such a wretched little plea as my own. I have the highest respect for the writers who post here and the knowledge which they share, as well as the organization which sponsors this forum, and I feel like a real heel for posting this sort of thing.

But I've been spending so much money and time on this nootropics business, and you fine folks know all the angles and intricacies so much better than I do; I just follow your leads and hope for the best. And still I seem to be in a rut so deep that, despite the great aid I've received from Wellbutrin, I still cannot feel emotionally alive unless I've gotten myself drunk.

If I'm not drunk, I feel dead to the world; cynical, heartless, isolated, jaded, and inert, as if my brain has shut-down and only my simple senses of physical perception remain active. I progress in no meaningful way towards any of my personal goals, and connect in no meaningful way to other people.

The only times that I feel truly human are when I've guzzled booze until I'm about to puke; otherwise, I'm a lump, absorbed in my own self-doubt.

I exercise, I eat better than anyone else I know, I get my vitamins -- and it's all to no avail: my waking hours, from day to day, merge seamlessly into a gray, incomprehensible, senseless limbo. I shudder with dread at the utter waste I am making of my life, despite all my definite plans for it.

Yet -

Something about alcohol wakes me up and makes me myself. I can write, I can draw, I can read a book and commune with the immortal soul of the author - at last!

I don't want to drink like I do, I know it's not good for me. And I've only started it recently, in the past few months, so my drinking is not the cause of my problems, which go back many years now.

I've read through so many threads, and done my best to become informed - but I still don't really understand the intricacies of neurochemistry.

I'd just like to know, I'd just like to ask you:

This is the big question:

What is it that alcohol is doing to me that makes me feel like I've no hope in the world unless I'm drunk, and what is a healthy means by which to encourage those same feelings - or the neurotransmitters/neurostimulus responsible for those feelings - whilst remaining sobre and maintaining healthy behavior?

Over the past few weeks, I've typed out this post and then deleted it before submission, ashamed to ask something like this on a forum with so many intelligent and productive people; but I'm so desperate just to revive my emotional being that I can't bring myself to abort tonight's pitiful attempt at soliciting aid.

I have read more psychological texts than any therapist I have ever met, and have spent many hours psychoanalyzing myself according to the principles of numerous "schools" of psychology, so please do not suggest therapy or counseling as the answer to all that fetters me. It is a straightforward matter of there being some neurochemical mechanism which is triggered, agitated or provoked by ethanol that is otherwise dormant.

I struggle to feel any emotion at all, without the aid of alcohol, and it's grinding me down into a depression that frightens me.

Thank you most sincerely for your charitable patience.

[blazewind]

I see you were questioning making this post, well don't worry, thanks for the post, I've made some realizations from it.
I'm not sure I can craft a perfect response to this at the moment, but it's better than not posting anything.
It seems you are trying to out logic your depression, but the logical keeps going in circles.
I have never been depressed per say, but I think everyone goes through the mood of hopelessness once in a while.
I'm not exactly sure how it happened, but over the past couple years I may have successfully 'logiced' away any depression or hopelessness.
If i try to explain it briefly, I think
"I can always start over from nothing no matter what"
What does this mean exactly? I simulate a worst case scenario and accept it. Some examples "Everyone I know dies" pretty extreme, but I feel I can accept it by starting over... I will rebuild and create new relationships. Then these new relationships would not even exist if the bad case scenario happened. So I really can't feel any regret towards the bad thing that happened.
You can do this for everything... "I lose my sight" ... ok, I will become a musician. "I lose my hearing" it's ok, I'll just read books all day. "I'm paralyzed like stephen hawking" well I know that he has a pretty great life still, and you could still use a computer with some fancy devices. "I get cancer" experiment with every hallucinogen...
Now who knows if these things really happen I feel this way, but at this moment I feel like I could feel that way if they happened.
Those are pretty extremely bad situations and any other possible bad thing that happens daily can't even compare to those so really any bad thing is dwarfed by simulating and accepting horrible situations thousands of times worse then that.
Of course this is just my brain, it could still be totally delusional, but it is an example of attempting to use logic and intelligence.

Maybe it is society itself that is causing it.
There is an interesting book by Sigmund Freud, "Civilization and Its Discontents" I think you should read it. (The wikipedia article on it has a link to the scanned book in pdf format)
It explains how rules of society are clashing with biology to create socially constructed problems in a socially constructed world.
For example, let's say you get in a car crash, and it makes you spiral into depression because you couldn't afford insurance and now you can't get to work, etc...
Well first of all if cars didn't exist, or the concept of insurance did not exist this problem and depression wouldn't even happen in the first place.
And then think of people in third world countries where most of the population is on Earth, they don't even have cars so they could never even have this problem and therefore this kind of depression. I mean there are people working 16 hours a day in horrible conditions and still don't feel this kind of depression that a first world person would get from that situation.

Maybe it is intelligence itself that is causing depression.
Do animals feel depressed? I have cats and they seem to just be 'living', doesn't seem like they are ever 'depressed.'
Maybe because alcohol supresses logic, it allows you to just live, to just feel.

In my case it seems my intelligence has created safeguards against depression, but another person's intelligence may take another route and fail to create the safeguard, and without it the only way to defeat the depression is to destroy intelligence itself.

As for the exact chemicals alcohol affects, maybe the combined effect of GABA supressing the "excititory logic" + increasing phenylethylamine, the general feel good chemical could create this effect.

Edited by blazewind, 11 May 2009 - 07:35 AM.

[Skötkonung]

In my opinion, I think you are depressed. Substance abuse is commonly a symptom of depression for the exact reasons you mentioned above. Also, because alcohol is a depressant, the momentary euphoria will ultimately lower both serotonin and norepinephrine levels -- making your depression worse or persist longer. My recommendation is to see a therapist and start a regimen of antidepressants. Furthermore, I would stop self medicating because in the long term that is going to exacerbate your existing problems and could potentially lead down the path of addiction.

Depression is common; people regularly go through periods of their life where they experience it. From a evolutionary biology perspective, depression helps to spur innovation and change. It was a method for our distant ancestors to realize a situation was bad for their survival and that they needed to change their behavior or circumstances. Sadly, this mechanism is a blunt instrument as it doesn't always result in positive change and can cause more harm than good. Perhaps you should reflect on your life and discover what you are dissatisfied with so that you can take logical steps to change it for the better. A licensed therapist can help you do that.

[Zoroaster]

"I have read more psychological texts than any therapist I have ever met, and have spent many hours psychoanalyzing myself according to the principles of numerous "schools" of psychology, so please do not suggest therapy or counseling as the answer to all that fetters me."

It seems like perhaps this might be your problem right there. Depression isn't always neurochemical. Nothing makes you dead to the world like too much introverted self-analysis. Hell that's exactly what nearly killed me a few years back. Maybe I'm oversimplifying here and I don't know what your life is like but how much service are you doing? How many people do you have around you that you really care about? Is there anything in your life that allows you to impact other people in a meaningful way? What proportion of your "thinking time" is spent thinking about yourself and your problems versus other people? 80/20? 50/50? Because I think it needs to be more like 30/70 if you want any chance of being a truly happy person. I don't claim to know why that is, but there is seriously something about focusing on other people that changes the way you see your life. And its not just a matter of pushing your own problems out of your mind. There is inherent existential meaning to be found in being an influence in other people's lives for good. In fact it may be the only real way to find meaning in life as far as I'm aware.

[Zoroaster]

Also I just want to emphasize that there is hope for you. I felt entirely emotionally dead for a good 4-5 years of my life. I was outwardly cheerful but I just couldn't feel positive emotions or enjoy life at all. I spent all my time analyzing myself and my relationships with other people. Inevitably this led me to despise myself. I started drifting off track and felt like I'd never reach the goals I had originally set for myself, and I experimented with a lot of things in an attempt to wake myself up. Anything that worked only worked temporarily, which got me even more depressed, and eventually I tried to kill myself. But I failed (thankfully) and now years later I'm in medical school with a wife I love and a new son I adore. I'm on track to exceed the goals I set for myself and I seriously enjoy every day of my life.

I tried therapy and medications with only very minor success but it was seriously dedicating my life to other people that changed my perspective. Anyway, no matter how hopeless it seems you do not know what your life will be like even 2 years down the road. You can change your perspective.

[Parleton Trent]

Since you mentioned about neurochemistry, I'll make it brief:

You feel 'alive' because you are addicted . The nucleus accumbens region in the brain plays a major role in the addiction due to dopamine release (which make you 'high'), aside from GABA (which make you down, so to speak). Surprisingly some research (though still a matter of debate, just do a search on google or pubmed) showed alcohol down-regulates GABA receptors. Low GABA levels (the neurotransmitters, not the receptors) are also associated with depression. Alcohol is implicated in changing GABA and GABA receptors and thus associates with depression some people might feel.

Chronic use of alochol leads to a combination of gaba/gaba-receptors downregulation and increase dopamine release, which then you will feel alive.

Aside from nucleus accumbens (NA), the ventral tegmental area (VTA), limbic structures (amygdala, hippocampus, insula), and pre-frontal cortex (PFC) regions are also involved. Out of these main players, NA is at the center where information are converged, passing through/modulate, and then send to the motor cortex for behavioral response (feeling alive /high)

Just a brief sketch:

VTA: where dopamine receptors are located; send infor to limbic structures, PFC, and NA; re-enforcing stimulation

NA: sensitive to drug abuse; subjective experience of pleasure; reward and re-enforcement; craving and stress without drugs

PFC: impairment lead to loss of behavioral control and no regard for consequence of actions; poor judgment

Limbic regions: assign motivation values for taking drugs + learning about drugs and experience (amygdala); euphoric recalls (hippocampus), etc.

Overall alcohol abuses lead to increase dopamine synthesis in VTA and release in NA


Hope that helps you understand more about alcohol's overall underlying mechanism in the brain. Of course you can always use google scholar or pubmed to find more infor.


And to also answer your other question. If you can get your hand on amphetamine or its derivative (ritalin/adderall,etc.) you can of course get high. However, long-term use will eventually result in down-regulation of those dopamine receptors, or any other 'feel-good' receptors. So no, you can't get the perfect neurotransmitters that make you feel good while become sombre or maintain healthy behavior in the long run. The brain itself always compensated for having too many. Too much of a good thing will backfire. The best thing you can do is to have a cool-down/off-period. Even that itself still run the risk of receptor down-regulation.

Alcohol is generally known as a depressant. However, there are people who are thrived off it as in your case. Maybe it's just genetic

PT, MS-I

Edited by Parleton Trent, 11 May 2009 - 10:38 AM.

[4eva]

Have you ever tried SAMe? Alcohol lowers histamine. You may have a problem with undermethylation.

[rwac]

Have you tried Magnesium Taurate ?
Taurine has a relaxing effect similar to that of alcohol.

Don't mix it with the alcohol, though.

[bgwithadd]

Why do people take alcohol, and what do they take to stop? Naltrexone is good for addiction, because it makes much of what alcohol and opiods do not work. Low Dose Naltexone has the opposite effect (sometimes) and can give you a lot of a boost by opening up endorphins, but read about this a lot before trying it, if you do.

Alcohol also releases PEA. Without it, it's basically impossible to experience pleasure. It seems to me you have the symptoms of the type of depression associated with this, where you are not UNhappy per se but you just can't make things click and make you happy at all. I feel I have some of this and deprenyl helps. I'm considering going to deprenyl + DLPA (which willa ffect both PEA and endorphin production).

Remember, people don't just become addicts or drunks, they are born that way. There is something about alcohol that affects your brain chemistry in a way that you do need. Or anyway in some way your brain craves. Of course, there's too much side effects to go through life constantly drunk so it's no real solution to anything, but if you can find the right drugs or supplements then you should stop having quite so much of an addiction to it. For example, I am huge caffeine freak, but if I take a small amount of adderall or deprenyl I just don't have any desire for it. Yet, I have not become addicted to either of those, either.

[Guacamolium]

Okay, you have gabaeric action-potential deficiency as well as NAC reward deficiency. Take some piracetam and put yourself in situations to be rewarded. Or you could just drink - cheers!

[kevin]

Best cure for depression..

help others worse off

[lecithin]

I've used lots of illegal drugs, legally obtained prescription, and dozens of calming supplements to self medicate my depression and anxiety, but the problem with all these is they are only short term (4-24 hour) solutions to the problem.


The most 'alive' feeling I get is when I take either tramadol, an opiate analog that has antidepressant properties (most amazing antidepressant I've found, effective for 8-12 hours at 100 mg). I also get that feeling with amphetamines used for treating ADD (atypical antidepressant).

These are still just moments though, just a cover to the underlying problem.

I've found fish oil, magnesium citrate, rhodiola rosea, and l-theanine let me be happy in a way that I think is safe on a permanent basis.

[k10]

First off, when did you start feeling this way? Clearly you haven't felt like this your whole life. There was a time when these feelings were triggered. When was this? What changes happened in your life when this happened?

In regards to dealing with your situation right now, I have some advice on what to take to replace alcohol, as alcohol simply isn't a viable option right now for you.

You could definitely use a benzodiazapene at the moment to take on a daily basis to replace the alcohol, something like Xanax XR would seem like a reasonable drug for you to take right now. I also second the person who said Sam-E, as this isn't only going to help you with these dull feelings, but will also help your liver. I've read that sam-e is very help for people dealing with alcoholism. Wellbutrin is an anticholinergic so I don't think it is the best drug for you really.. but if you find it helps then alright.

I also think naltrexone would be a good option for you, but not low dose naltrexone, but rather the typical 50mg a day dosage as alcohol is definitely not something that you should be drinking right now. 50mg a day until you have your cravings for alcohol under control, then I would recommend switching to low dose naltrexone right before bedtime once you have that under control.

You also need to sign-up to a 12-step program and get yourself a sponsor. You had a problem before the alcohol, but now you've complicated things even further. You're an alcoholic right now. If you don't fix this problem, things will get worse, there's no doubt about that. Look in the phone book's Yellow Pages and White Pages under "Alcoholism" and you will find a local phone number for Alcoholics Anonymous. Call that number and you will be given a convenient meeting time and location.

Edited by k10, 12 May 2009 - 02:42 AM.

[Logan]

I agree with others that you may have a real issue with depression. Have you thought about adding something to the wellbutrin? I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, you may seriously consider completely cutting out the alcohol for a while until you figure this out. Quitting drinking may actually be one of the solutions. I know this is much easier said than done. I wish I had done this long ago. I can relate somewhat to how you feel. I used to wonder if I would ever simply be able to enjoy life and the simple things in life again instead of going out and getting pissed with my friends. Going out and getting wasted seemed to be the only way to do have fun. Seriously consider that you may have a whole lot of underlying depression and that is getting in the way of everything. It is scary how our inner subconscious mind can affect the way we experience daily life.

Edited by morganator, 12 May 2009 - 05:26 AM.

[bgwithadd]

The thing about AA is that people who go to AA generally have that become their whole lives. Not drinking becomes as much of a big deal as drinking, in a sense. The naltrexone at high dose can help you quit if it is a severe issue, though, too, as k10 points out. But, I think that ultimately you are depressed and/or have some other underlying chemistry issues. Treating them as best you can is probably going to be important to not just not drinking too much (obviously life's more than just NOT doing things, right? That is a lot of why I feel unhappy sometimes - there's nothing bad, but even the good stuff just doesn't engage me like it ought to. Much better now and doesn't crop up constantly, but before it was a complete nightmare) but also to just being happy in general.

[synaesthetic]

I know where you are coming from, I have felt the same as you at times. I recommend that you research Tianeptine, it may help you get that feeling of being "more alive".

[lacura]

It quite possible you have ADD. The brain is only switched on when stimulated. ADD sufferers can be diagnosed late in life and look back and find they had all symptoms of ADD from an early age without realising it and can go unnoticed.

[Cassox]

Hey! It's human nature to seek altered states of consciousness. Remember spinning in circles when you were a kid? First off. Why alcohol? Why not pot? While alcohol is more socially acceptable, pot is... better. Yes, you are exchanging one potential health problem with another, but overall those who use thc are much better off. No dialysis. No problem for diabetics. There is an increase in the risk for heart attack, but it's an acute risk. It has far less potential to come back and bite you in the ass later. After a bit of adjustment, most people can pretty much live their normal lives driving and interacting at work. This is not really so for those who drink. Now, done with the pot speal.

I think you hate your current life in general. It's meaningless to you. Your seeking something more meaningful. You use alcohol to lower your inhibitions in the hope that you irreversibly destroy something. Maybe it's your current relationship; I don't know.

[TheFountain]

I think people who immediately taut the use of anti-depressants as the answer need to re-acquaint themselves with the therapeutic process. I highly disagree with the notion that prescription anti-depressants are the answer in most cases, or even a moderate percentage of cases. People underestimate the role environment plays in depressive moods. Society is geared towards one type of survivor, and anyone who does not suit this abstract chemical prototype is almost always ostracized and told to go on medication. Diversity is an inherent natural trait of our species, without it we would perish. This policy in the psychiatric community of prescribing first and asking questions later is only leading to a quickening demise of diversity. The truth is we should be trying our best to diversify our environment and make more room for people who do not 'fit the mould' mentally. This bullshit notion that anyone who doesn't act a certain way or who is depressed by the crap society keeps churning forth has a 'chemical imbalance' is preposterous.

That said, to anyone experiencing deep depression. I think the answer is a change of environment. Keep changing that environment till you've found one suitable to your mental well being. Even if that means having to live on a yacht in the middle of the ocean.

Edited by TheFountain, 12 May 2009 - 01:59 PM.

[Cassox]

In the words of Buckaroo Bonzai: Wherever you go, there you are. Environment is wallpaper.

[TheFountain]

In the words of Buckaroo Bonzai: Wherever you go, there you are. Environment is wallpaper.

So if you're in a post-devastated Iraq and you've lost your children to cross-fire then environment must be a pretty fucked up wallpaper that you'd want to change.

[Cassox]

In the words of Buckaroo Bonzai: Wherever you go, there you are. Environment is wallpaper.

So if you're in a post-devastated Iraq and you've lost your children to cross-fire then environment must be a pretty fucked up wallpaper that you'd want to change.

Ahhh! You've solved it! He needs to move out of Iraq and find a new girlfriend! Then he will feel alive without drinking! Genius!
He's talking about a psychological issue, not a physical one. If you move around to avoid dealing with psychological issues it's called, "running away from your problems."
If his problem was, "my boyfriend beats the shit out of me," or " I keep coughing from all the asbestos in my bed," then a physical move just might be in order.
Think before you type kimosabee.

[TheFountain]

In the words of Buckaroo Bonzai: Wherever you go, there you are. Environment is wallpaper.

So if you're in a post-devastated Iraq and you've lost your children to cross-fire then environment must be a pretty fucked up wallpaper that you'd want to change.

Ahhh! You've solved it! He needs to move out of Iraq and find a new girlfriend! Then he will feel alive without drinking! Genius!
He's talking about a psychological issue, not a physical one. If you move around to avoid dealing with psychological issues it's called, "running away from your problems."
If his problem was, "my boyfriend beats the shit out of me," or " I keep coughing from all the asbestos in my bed," then a physical move just might be in order.
Think before you type kimosabee.

He is talking about an issue that he obviously cannot resolve by himself, thus is not entirely aware of the causative factor. In many cases this causative factor is the environment one lingers in. But we are taught to blame ourselves for our societies short comings all too often. I think in some peoples case 'running away from your problems' actually means getting away from societies bullshit. It is needed for some as not all are oblivious to it. And oblivion is not the state of being we as a species should encourage.

Edited by TheFountain, 12 May 2009 - 03:41 PM.

[Cassox]

Society teaches us to take responsibility for its shortcomings? Since when? Where do you live man? First of all, I'll assume your talking about American society. With that assumption, who the hell takes responsibility for anything? Fat people sue McDonalds because they ate the food. Finding a person who has an internal locus of control is difficult. The reality is that YES. You are responsible for your shitty life. Anywhere you go, you bring your inner problems with you. People who need to constantly change things to maintain happiness are weak. Its just another example of "waiting for jesus." If I travel around, something outside me somewhere will make me whole. Its pervasive in America. Nearly no one takes responsibility for their actions. You know why sites like this are fringe? Because people don't take it upon themselves to be educated. They blame the public school systems. They blame blame blame. Gee if I move away though..... This person is taking it upon himself to find a solution to his problem. Your solution is to say its someone elses fault, and he should move away from them. Hmmm....

[TheFountain]

Society teaches us to take responsibility for its shortcomings? Since when? Where do you live man? First of all, I'll assume your talking about American society. With that assumption, who the hell takes responsibility for anything? Fat people sue McDonalds because they ate the food. Finding a person who has an internal locus of control is difficult. The reality is that YES. You are responsible for your shitty life. Anywhere you go, you bring your inner problems with you. People who need to constantly change things to maintain happiness are weak. Its just another example of "waiting for jesus." If I travel around, something outside me somewhere will make me whole. Its pervasive in America. Nearly no one takes responsibility for their actions. You know why sites like this are fringe? Because people don't take it upon themselves to be educated. They blame the public school systems. They blame blame blame. Gee if I move away though..... This person is taking it upon himself to find a solution to his problem. Your solution is to say its someone elses fault, and he should move away from them. Hmmm....

I am talking specifically about mental health issues. Obviously people eat mcdonalds because they have been indoctrinated to eat mcdonalds from a very young age. And unfortunately only a few can break this deeply rooted conditioning, hence why mcdonalds is still a big phenomenon. But conditioning is not the only factor, the divide that exists between classes of people plays a very big role in all this too. In america the pyramid is occupied mostly by the poor, the 'middleclass' occupy perhaps 35-40% of that pyramid while the rich occupy maybe the upper 5%. This makes for a lot of situational and environmental depression. In situations in which all you've seen all your life is violence because you grew up in a garbage environment calling it an 'inner problem' is a bunch of non-sense. And you don't even have to necessarily be poor or traumatized for this to be the case. The environment matters alot. People crave progress and utopia. The government enforces limitations which they indoctrinate people since child hood to also enforce in themselves.

Edited by TheFountain, 12 May 2009 - 03:58 PM.

[dumbdumb]

Hello,

Thanks very much to one and all for the replies, I appreciate them very much. I'll have to take more time to re-read the thread as it's developed, copying out the suggestions and searching down further information, so if I don't respond directly to your post please don't think that I've ignored it.

For now I'd just to state that I am not addicted to alcohol, at least not in the sense that I use it frequently. I would love to constantly feel as positive as I do when drunk, but - and this might sound very silly - dressing well is quite important to me and I simply cannot fit into my clothes if I gain any more weight. Knowing that alcohol will have significant negative effects on the efficacy of my diet and exercise, I am able to exert sufficient willpower to abstain for periods of widely varying length. The problem is, obviously, that during those periods I am miserable.

I'm wholly aware that I need a drastic change of environment. The problem is that I have a very definite environment in mind, and it requires much diligent work to achieve that specific relocation. My inability to progress meaningfully in this necessary work - work of an artistic nature, both visual and literary - is a source of, and I believe also to a significant degree the result of, my glaringly obvious depression.

I hate that I've made a thread like this, it's so whiny and LiveJournal-y; you all must think of some kind of emo or attention-seeker. But anyway, again, thanks a million for all the help, and once I've had a chance to pay your posts the attention that they deserve and delve deeper into the options that you suggest, I'll write back.

Thanks, take care, bye.

EDIT: Oh, also, on the subject of marijuana, yes, I've found that this has a similar effect on me as an antidepressant and an energy booster. Opiates and other depressants, strangely, on me seem to have the opposite effect; even if my body becomes uncoordinated, I feel such a shock of mental-emotional energy that I read and write and play instruments like crazy. Marijuana, obviously, along with alcohol, is not a real solution to my problem, so I don't think it really warrants examination in that role. I just respond to the subject as a means of clarifying the causes of my excitation, which I wish to replicate or emulate to some degree.

Edited by dumbdumb, 12 May 2009 - 06:15 PM.

[Chaos Theory]

I can sympathize, as I'm going through a rough patch myself.

Considering the suffering of others, and focusing more of your attention on it, is a very good suggestion. It sounds like new age, self-help bullshit, but looking at it logically you can see why it would work.

The main problem is cyclical thinking. You continuously allow all of your thoughts to lead back to your self, your current situation, the hopelessness of that situation, your apparent inability to change or overcome that situation, getting down on yourself even more for not being able to get out of that situation, regretting all of the actions that allowed you to get there.... It is really endless and can go on indefinitely.

Shifting your focus outward and having compassion for someone else is very effective in breaking this cycle of negative thought. If you can't see yourself physically going and doing some work to benefit someone, at least sit and contemplate other people's struggle. Really try it next time you find a feeling of hopelessness arising.


As TheFountain suggested, a change of scenery or just your current focus in life can likewise bring about an end to this cyclical negative thinking. Cassox's view is also very valid though. A change of scenery can and most likely will stop your negativity, but for how long?

I feel the natural state of the human mind is to always be looking for that next rung, the next achievement, more progress. When does it stop? People are never happy with what they have. Just look at all you have now compared to what you had as a kid. After you get all of the shit you thought would make you happy, you soon realize the empty feeling is still there. So what do you do? Sit and determine the source of this unhappiness? Most people do not. They flip the fuck out, get depressed or manic, run to the next thing, next girl, better job, better promotion, better car, house.. if they aren't the driven achiever type they just reach for the pills and the booze.

I don't know the source of this quote, maybe Buddha or a homeless guy, but it is very true that "nothing outside of yourself can give you lasting happiness."

Maybe you are good at this game called life. You're well adapted to this society and the way it operates. Even so, you will just be constantly chasing down that next goal. It will still be cyclical happiness. Business as usual.

Overall discontent and the feeling of the potential of something better being possible is what drives progress. Sadly it also drives divorce, ruthless competition, and countless other ills of society.

So where does that leave us? We can go the Buddhist route, give up everything and spend the rest of our days in meditation rewiring our minds so this discontent never arises again. We can join the fray with most other people and continue our perpetual rat race towards our next goal.

Maybe the way to live is somewhere in between those two extremes.

I don't have the answer, I'm looking for it myself.

Edited by Chaos Theory, 12 May 2009 - 11:15 PM.

[synaesthetic]

I forgot to tell you! Look into sam-e, I'd recommend it before tianeptine as it is more mild, but it can boost mood and has been shown to be helpful with alcoholics.

[Yearningforyears]

DUDE DUDE DUDE! This is exactly what I experienced before getting myself on some supplements / drugs. It´s been a long journey and it didn´t have to take that long, although it has been good experience in a way.

Throw all these supplements to hell just for a moment and go see the doctor.
You are most likely depressed or are having major anxiety issues.
Brain fog, feelings of shut down brain etc is a major symptom of depression (dysthymia or whatever).
Just because you don´t feel sad doesn´t mean you are not depressed. It is an emotional disease, slowly eating the senses away. Maybe the smelling sense is dulled as well? For some people this is a symptom of depression.
Go see the doctor and quit experimenting any further, until you have given the real medicine a go.
This will take some time, but it´s so worth it.

Look into bipolarity as well. It can be dangerous to use antidepressants if you are bipolar.

[russianBEAR]

Didn't read the entire thread, but I've had my issues with drug/alcohol abuse in the past, and still do to a certain extent. (Hey I'm here and I like pharmaceuticals, you know....)

I think what you want to do is have a deep and honest look at yourself. Try to track what situations cause you negative emotions/feelings, and what the basis of that feeling really is. You can almost always trace it to some kind of an unfavorable situation in the past. Another thing, some of the post sounds like self-pity. That was really hard to me to deal with, as were my numerous fears which I've acquired due to not being raised in a functional household by both parents.

Society also creates these images and stereotypes which make you feel "unworthy". You have to be aware of that, as a lot of negative self-invalidating feelings stem from all these social stereotypes, because you feel like you have to compete with others to be a functioning member. And you really don't life is a journey and your own quest and yours only.

Taking drugs, alcohol etc. just masks the problem and allows you to validate the positive sides of your experience, but negative experiences IMO are CRUCIAL to growth. It's an easy solution to just pop some pills which will make you happy NOW. Yeah let's go to the doctor and get a load of happy pills prescribed so you don't have to actually DEAL with the issues. Sounds like an easy way out to be honest. All depression is curable once you figure out the root cause of it. Cause in a sense it just an emotion, gotta figure out its cause. These pharm giants just love selling you antidepressants and tranquilizers, because you get hooked on them, and if you do em long enough you'll have no chance of getting off (especially benzos, OMG stay away from those!)

It's very difficult admitting certain stuff about yourself, because your self-esteem will create all kinds of justifications and denials, as well as distortions (well I'm not THAT BAD...some people are worse etc.) 

I'm still a work in progress but I was in a similar boat. Yeah I still got my demons and my vices, but it's constant improvement.

Edited by russianBEAR, 02 June 2009 - 10:34 AM.