121 replies to this topic

[cumberlilly]

I am writing this thread to post together information from a past thread that I wrote about the issue which I'm currently dealing with.

My Journey starts back in the beginning of January of 2007. I was a senior in highschool at the time and doing very poorly in terms of academics and my social life. Throughout ALL of my highschool years, I suffered with crippling anxiety in the form of a feelings of terror, accompanied with panic attacks. I also had no sense of pleasure from life and always went to school in pain and suffering. I thought that it was "Normal" to feel the way I felt, and that somehow I was weak minded and wasn't dealing with it like other people were. As I was about to see, I was dead wrong in terms of EVERYTHING that I thought about mental illness and how much I could be helped by medication. It all started in my senior year of highschool when I came back from a cripplingly bad day of intense anxiety and pain, and I was riding home from school with my mom. I had NEVER really told my parents how much I suffered because I thought that I was just "weak" and that somehow I would be looked down upon by them. So when I told my mom how awful my day was, and how awful most of my days in highschool were, she was very surprised. So we immeadiately set up and appointment with a psychologist who saw how awful I was doing and immeadiately recommended Paxil to my pediatrician.

I still remember vividly the first couple of days after I was taking the Paxil; it was like a light shining in a dimly lit forest, glowing with an incredibly aura of brilliance. I was in my Physics class at the time, having another intense anxiety filled day, when gradually, throughout that very day, miraculous things were happening inside my brain. As I went to my next class I remember feeling SIGNIFICANTLY less anxious, and it was like an EXPLOSION of pleasure had erupted in my mind, overwhelming me with it's power and strength, and how AWESOME I felt. By the third class period I was smiling and laughing, full of such love and humility for everyone in the school. Socially, that day had been the most socially productive I had been probably throughout not only my highschool years, but throughout all of my LIFE. When I arrived home from school I exclaimed to my parents that I felt PHENOMENAL which made them feel very happy for me and I graduated from highschool quite happily.

As college came about, I felt so positive and confident, much more so than any other point in my life, and I entered the new year doing great. The strangest thing about my sudden new-found confidence and change in the way I felt was that even when I MISSED a day or two of taking my medication, it literally felt like I had JUST taken it, and 1 dose was all that I needed to "cure me". I bet that I literally could have stopped after taking a couple of days worth of the medication, and I would have remained feeling the same way as if I had JUST taken it; that's a testament to how bad I was doing before the medication, that only a couple of days worth of the medication could "cure me".

Anyways, about 1 year into taking the Paxil (January of 2008), my psychologist and family decided that I was doing well enough on my own that I could safely wean off the medication and still maintain the benefits. Well, we were right. I weaned off the medication yet still retained the enormous benefits that it had instilled in me. This excited me, and I looked forward to my new life. All of this newfound glory and confidence, unfortunately, was about to come to an abrupt and shocking end.

Throughout my first year of college I had bought a supplement called fish oil for nothing more than to improve my health. Unfortunately, Fish Oil proved to be a disasterous supplement, and caused all of these following symptoms during my first year of college:

-Loss of some involuntary movements (eyes blinking; it seems like I have to manually blink or I have an altered eye blink rate)
-Weak, limp muscles/poor control over and generally body feels weak and like I will lose control over my muscles
-Low libido
-Head feels very light/like a feather almost
-Altered sense of surroundings/environment
-Altered sense of time
-No sense of pleasure/euphoria

When exactly did these symptoms occur in relation to when I took the fish oil? Approximately a week or 9 days is the answer. How do I know it was the fish oil and not my own imagination or something else? I stopped taking it, and my symptoms reversed, I started taking it again, and my symptoms all came back. So you see, it was like a trial and error, I tried it, it caused something bad, I stopped it, it reversed.

About 3 times after stopping and trying the fish oil, I dropped it COMPLETELY, and vowed to never go back to it. I was doing fantastic until around September 29th, 2008, when I once again, revisited fish oil, except this time, I had bought a VERY potent, pharmaceutical grade called RX Omega 3 Factors. I vividly remember what was about to happen next.

About 9 days into taking the Rx Omega 3 Factors, all my symptoms popped up again, and once again, I realized that it truly was the fish oil causing all of my symptoms, so I decided to drop it PERMANENTLY. Unfortunately, this time around, my symptoms were NOT dissapearing like they had in the past, which caused me to panic. I couldn't fathom it, how could fish oil possibly do this to a person and not revert back when they stopped taking it? After all, in the past it HAD reversed but this time around, with a more potent brand, it hadn't reversed. In fact, it felt like I had JUST taken the fish oil, even when I stopped taking it. Sound familiar? Yes, it's very similar to what happened when I stopped the Paxil yet retained it's benefits. With the fish oil, however, there were NO benefits, only a HUGE amount of symptoms and agony.

What exactly happened when my symptoms came upon me? And How did they come upon my exactly? Well here's basically what happened, I was sitting in front of my computer, pleasantly browsing the web, after having popped 3 pills on that 9th day of taking the pills, and suddenly, there was a GRADUAL yet sudden change in my brain chemistry. It felt like my brain was being liquified and all of these chemicals were fading away in the background. My pleasure was like, DRAINING out of me like water draining down a drain. It felt like my entire brain was being switched OFF, and I being left with a hole in the "ozone layer" that protects my brain. It felt like my brain was being "exposed" and I was being left with all my neurotransmitters being on volume 1, as opposed to volume 10, where they belong. My dry eyes had vanished, my skin had become more moist, and my spit and mucuous had become stickier.

As the hours of that day progressed, this effect reached a plateau around October 8th, and as of right now (May 22nd, 2009) the effect has NOT reverted or even dwindled in strength. My spit, mucuous, skin, and dry eyes are all still moist and haven't reverted back to how they were before the fish oil.

After all this happened, a MONTH passed (November) before I finally went to see a PSYCHIATRIST this time around, and he put me on Seroquel and Paxil (because Paxil had worked so well in the past). Unfortunately, Seroquel made me even worse and Paxil did absolutely NOTHING. Then I went to Abilify and Lexapro, again, which did nothing. Then Zoloft and Geodon, which did nothing. And finally Prozac and Lamictal, of which I just started the Prozac so it's too soon to say anything about it. Actually, I shouldn't say the Geodon does NOTHING, it does in fact, do SOMETHING, and that is, it prevents me from going SO far down into the black pit of despair; which is why I'm still on it at the moment.

So as everyone can see, this has been a pretty frustrating journey for me and I need everyone's thoughts and opinions on what's happened to me. Any advice you can give regarding supplements or medications I'll gladly ask my psychiatrist and see what he thinks about what you guys recommend.

Also, there's no family history of mental illness.

Edited by rdragon, 22 May 2009 - 11:34 PM.

[bgwithadd]

Well, as I suspected this paints a much different picutre of things.

First off, obviously there is some initial problem. Also, of course, you have taken quite a few different medications which makes it harder to straighten out.

Actually, sounds more than anything like schizophrenia to me, to be honest. All of your symptoms go along with schizophrenia (which can have strong variations in severity).

Schizophrenia is also apparently linked to acetylcholinergic receptors, especially the muscarinic ones. If you have schizophrenia then I could possibly see fish oil causing a problem. It does increase the firings of synapses and increases many neurotransmitters temporarily. Not an issue at all with someone who has no other problems, but if you have bipolar or schizophrenia or generalized anxiety disorder you are in trouble.

Now, have you always had dry eyes or was it mostly from when taking paxil? That is a sign of anticholinergic effect. After you stop an SSRI you can get a big rebound which goes the other way that usually lasts a few months. But, normally it should come on right after stopping, probably a week at most. Usually it goes the opposite direction, too - so if you got ramped up from fish oil or something else for a long time you would damp down a few days later for a while once you stop.


You should avoid seroquel at all costs. Now that there's more info, the geodon actually makes more sense than before, though. You might have some of your symptoms triggered somehow, but there is a root cause and you are probably going to have issues for a lifetime (though the moistness should be treatable). Tell your psych about your reaction to fish oil and your general moistness and weakness. Usually weakness is choline deficiency not overabundance, but I think it can actually be caused from both.

As for supplements, I would foremost try glycine and magnesium. There's a lot of other things you can try but that's probably the place to start. You can also try huperzine and see what happens. I suspect it will either make you feel much better or much worse. It only lasts a few hours, though.

Edited by bgwithadd, 22 May 2009 - 11:51 PM.

[cumberlilly]

Well, as I suspected this paints a much different picutre of things.

First off, obviously there is some initial problem. Also, of course, you have taken quite a few different medications which makes it harder to straighten out.

Actually, sounds more than anything like schizophrenia to me, to be honest. All of your symptoms go along with schizophrenia (which can have strong variations in severity).

Schizophrenia is also apparently linked to acetylcholinergic receptors, especially the muscarinic ones. If you have schizophrenia then I could possibly see fish oil causing a problem. It does increase the firings of synapses and increases many neurotransmitters temporarily. Not an issue at all with someone who has no other problems, but if you have bipolar or schizophrenia or generalized anxiety disorder you are in trouble.

Now, have you always had dry eyes or was it mostly from when taking paxil? That is a sign of anticholinergic effect. After you stop an SSRI you can get a big rebound which goes the other way that usually lasts a few months. But, normally it should come on right after stopping, probably a week at most. Usually it goes the opposite direction, too - so if you got ramped up from fish oil or something else for a long time you would damp down a few days later for a while once you stop.


You should avoid seroquel at all costs. Now that there's more info, the geodon actually makes more sense than before, though. You might have some of your symptoms triggered somehow, but there is a root cause and you are probably going to have issues for a lifetime (though the moistness should be treatable). Tell your psych about your reaction to fish oil and your general moistness and weakness. Usually weakness is choline deficiency not overabundance, but I think it can actually be caused from both.

As for supplements, I would foremost try glycine and magnesium. There's a lot of other things you can try but that's probably the place to start. You can also try huperzine and see what happens. I suspect it will either make you feel much better or much worse. It only lasts a few hours, though.

I've always had dry eyes, prior to taking the paxil. And I respectfully disagree with you when you say I sound like I have schizophrenia. I'm in no way paranoid, I have no hallucinations, none of the typical symptoms of it.

I also disagree with you when you say that I may have to suffer with these issues for my lifetime. I think when we successfully figure out what is causing this depression we can stop it from ever coming back. It feels like when I get OUT of a state this severe, I won't EVER return to it. I know how my body works, and that's just the way MY specific body works. So I guess I'm one of the lucky ones in that sense.

[RoadToAwe]

Schizophrenia is also apparently linked to acetylcholinergic receptors, especially the muscarinic ones. If you have schizophrenia then I could possibly see fish oil causing a problem. It does increase the firings of synapses and increases many neurotransmitters temporarily. Not an issue at all with someone who has no other problems, but if you have bipolar or schizophrenia or generalized anxiety disorder you are in trouble.

EPA has shown some promise as an adjunct treatment for Schizophrenia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12202284

Randomized, placebo-controlled study of ethyl-eicosapentaenoic acid as supplemental treatment in schizophrenia.

OBJECTIVE: The study investigated the efficacy and tolerability of ethyl-eicosapentaenoic acid (E-EPA) as add-on treatment in chronic, severe schizophrenia. METHOD: A randomized, parallel-group, double-blind, placebo-controlled, fixed-dose, add-on study was conducted over 12 weeks. Forty patients with persistent symptoms after at least 6 months of stable antipsychotic treatment received E-EPA or placebo, in addition to their existing treatment. RESULTS: At 12 weeks, the E-EPA group had significantly greater reduction of Positive and Negative Syndrome Scale total scores and of dyskinesia scores than the placebo group. CONCLUSIONS: EPA may be an effective and well-tolerated add-on treatment in schizophrenia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14661986


Clinical potential of omega-3 fatty acids in the treatment of schizophrenia.

The phospholipids in the neuronal membranes of the brain are rich in highly unsaturated essential fatty acids (EFAs). It has been hypothesised that abnormalities of phospholipid metabolism are present in patients with schizophrenia and that the EFAs omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids, and eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) in particular, may have a role in treating this illness. Considerable preclinical and clinical evidence provides support for this proposal. An epidemiological study reported a better outcome for patients with schizophrenia in countries where the diet is rich in unsaturated fatty acids. Evidence of abnormalities of EFAs has been found in erythrocyte membranes and cultured skin fibroblasts of patients with schizophrenia, and abnormal retinal function and niacin skin flush tests (markers of omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acid depletion) have also been reported. Case reports and an open-label clinical trial reported efficacy for EPA in schizophrenia. Four randomised, controlled trials of EPA versus placebo as supplemental medication have now been reported. Two of these trials showed significant benefit with EPA on the positive and negative symptom scale total scores, whereas the other two did not show any effects on this primary efficacy measure. One study also reported a beneficial effect on dyskinesia. In the only published trial in which EPA was used as monotherapy versus placebo in schizophrenia, some evidence was found to suggest antipsychotic activity. Taken together, there is considerable evidence to suggest abnormalities of EFAs in cell membranes of patients with schizophrenia, and there is preliminary evidence that EPA is an effective adjunct to antipsychotics.

[bgwithadd]

Well, as I suspected this paints a much different picutre of things.

First off, obviously there is some initial problem. Also, of course, you have taken quite a few different medications which makes it harder to straighten out.

Actually, sounds more than anything like schizophrenia to me, to be honest. All of your symptoms go along with schizophrenia (which can have strong variations in severity).

Schizophrenia is also apparently linked to acetylcholinergic receptors, especially the muscarinic ones. If you have schizophrenia then I could possibly see fish oil causing a problem. It does increase the firings of synapses and increases many neurotransmitters temporarily. Not an issue at all with someone who has no other problems, but if you have bipolar or schizophrenia or generalized anxiety disorder you are in trouble.

Now, have you always had dry eyes or was it mostly from when taking paxil? That is a sign of anticholinergic effect. After you stop an SSRI you can get a big rebound which goes the other way that usually lasts a few months. But, normally it should come on right after stopping, probably a week at most. Usually it goes the opposite direction, too - so if you got ramped up from fish oil or something else for a long time you would damp down a few days later for a while once you stop.


You should avoid seroquel at all costs. Now that there's more info, the geodon actually makes more sense than before, though. You might have some of your symptoms triggered somehow, but there is a root cause and you are probably going to have issues for a lifetime (though the moistness should be treatable). Tell your psych about your reaction to fish oil and your general moistness and weakness. Usually weakness is choline deficiency not overabundance, but I think it can actually be caused from both.

As for supplements, I would foremost try glycine and magnesium. There's a lot of other things you can try but that's probably the place to start. You can also try huperzine and see what happens. I suspect it will either make you feel much better or much worse. It only lasts a few hours, though.

I've always had dry eyes, prior to taking the paxil. And I respectfully disagree with you when you say I sound like I have schizophrenia. I'm in no way paranoid, I have no hallucinations, none of the typical symptoms of it.

I also disagree with you when you say that I may have to suffer with these issues for my lifetime. I think when we successfully figure out what is causing this depression we can stop it from ever coming back. It feels like when I get OUT of a state this severe, I won't EVER return to it. I know how my body works, and that's just the way MY specific body works. So I guess I'm one of the lucky ones in that sense.

Well, if you don't know anything about it, of course you don't think you have it. If you've never had reason to study mental illnesses extensively all you will have is common knowledge, which is virtually all misinformation.

In addition to depression and weakness and moistness, you have anxiety attacks, anhedonia, diskinesia, depersonalization, and 'a feeling things are completely out of sort'. Those are all symptoms of schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder and the last three actually basically are hallucinatory - you don't have to have the devil jump out of the bushes to be hallucinatory. These issues have been slowly building up your whole life, and that is the normal course of events for schizophrenia. You keep talking as if the fish oil suddenly caused this but you've already said you've always had all these issues except the moistness.

You don't have normal depression and there is no 'cause' for it. No outside cause, anyway. Nothing's been done to you, and there's no way to completely undo it, just treat it.

You are not responding to SSRIs at all, and if you had most forms of depression you would. Your problem probably goes deeper than that. You can take supplements for depression, or more drugs like MAO inhibitors, but they are not going to help your other symptoms. My guess is that MAOI is the last thing you need, though. There is evidence to say that not enough MAO-B is part of what causes schizophrenia.

Regardless of what you have, there's no easy treatment for you. You have an issue that goes beyond depression, and if you only look at the time before you took fish oil that is already obvious. Also, the moistness is not going to be helped by geodon but worsened if anything, but it is really the very least of your concerns. You have some serious issues, and there is not going to be any magic cure. If the moistness itself bothers you a great deal your doctor can prescribe atropine or guanfacine, but that isn't going to fix your other problems.

Edited by bgwithadd, 23 May 2009 - 01:01 AM.

[sUper GeNius]

Have you gotten a diagnosis of bipolar? I'm wondering because of the Lamictal script.

[cumberlilly]

Well, as I suspected this paints a much different picutre of things.

First off, obviously there is some initial problem. Also, of course, you have taken quite a few different medications which makes it harder to straighten out.

Actually, sounds more than anything like schizophrenia to me, to be honest. All of your symptoms go along with schizophrenia (which can have strong variations in severity).

Schizophrenia is also apparently linked to acetylcholinergic receptors, especially the muscarinic ones. If you have schizophrenia then I could possibly see fish oil causing a problem. It does increase the firings of synapses and increases many neurotransmitters temporarily. Not an issue at all with someone who has no other problems, but if you have bipolar or schizophrenia or generalized anxiety disorder you are in trouble.

Now, have you always had dry eyes or was it mostly from when taking paxil? That is a sign of anticholinergic effect. After you stop an SSRI you can get a big rebound which goes the other way that usually lasts a few months. But, normally it should come on right after stopping, probably a week at most. Usually it goes the opposite direction, too - so if you got ramped up from fish oil or something else for a long time you would damp down a few days later for a while once you stop.


You should avoid seroquel at all costs. Now that there's more info, the geodon actually makes more sense than before, though. You might have some of your symptoms triggered somehow, but there is a root cause and you are probably going to have issues for a lifetime (though the moistness should be treatable). Tell your psych about your reaction to fish oil and your general moistness and weakness. Usually weakness is choline deficiency not overabundance, but I think it can actually be caused from both.

As for supplements, I would foremost try glycine and magnesium. There's a lot of other things you can try but that's probably the place to start. You can also try huperzine and see what happens. I suspect it will either make you feel much better or much worse. It only lasts a few hours, though.

I've always had dry eyes, prior to taking the paxil. And I respectfully disagree with you when you say I sound like I have schizophrenia. I'm in no way paranoid, I have no hallucinations, none of the typical symptoms of it.

I also disagree with you when you say that I may have to suffer with these issues for my lifetime. I think when we successfully figure out what is causing this depression we can stop it from ever coming back. It feels like when I get OUT of a state this severe, I won't EVER return to it. I know how my body works, and that's just the way MY specific body works. So I guess I'm one of the lucky ones in that sense.

Well, if you don't know anything about it, of course you don't think you have it. If you've never had reason to study mental illnesses extensively all you will have is common knowledge, which is virtually all misinformation.

In addition to depression and weakness and moistness, you have anxiety attacks, anhedonia, diskinesia, depersonalization, and 'a feeling things are completely out of sort'. Those are all symptoms of schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder and the last three actually basically are hallucinatory - you don't have to have the devil jump out of the bushes to be hallucinatory. These issues have been slowly building up your whole life, and that is the normal course of events for schizophrenia. You keep talking as if the fish oil suddenly caused this but you've already said you've always had all these issues except the moistness.

You don't have normal depression and there is no 'cause' for it. No outside cause, anyway. Nothing's been done to you, and there's no way to completely undo it, just treat it.

You are not responding to SSRIs at all, and if you had most forms of depression you would. Your problem probably goes deeper than that. You can take supplements for depression, or more drugs like MAO inhibitors, but they are not going to help your other symptoms. My guess is that MAOI is the last thing you need, though. There is evidence to say that not enough MAO-B is part of what causes schizophrenia.

Regardless of what you have, there's no easy treatment for you. You have an issue that goes beyond depression, and if you only look at the time before you took fish oil that is already obvious. Also, the moistness is not going to be helped by geodon but worsened if anything, but it is really the very least of your concerns. You have some serious issues, and there is not going to be any magic cure. If the moistness itself bothers you a great deal your doctor can prescribe atropine or guanfacine, but that isn't going to fix your other problems.

No, I think you're still misunderstanding some parts of my story. I've NEVER had issues like I do now after what the fish oil did to me. I mean, I had panic attacks and anxiety before the fish oil, but that was about it; none of the other symptoms that popped up right after the fish oil. Plus now I don't have any anxiety or panic attacks.

And no, the moistness doesn't bother me a great deal.

I do agree with you that my issues run deeper than your typical depression, but I don't think that nescessarily means that I have schizophrenia or bipolar.

And no Full Member, I have not been diagnosed with bipolar, he gave me the Lamictal because it was the next step in my treatment for depression.

[niner]

rdragon, the part that I'm unclear on is the timeline between your first experience with Paxil, which was very good, and your fish oil experience. How much time elapsed from when you stopped Paxil until you started the Fish Oil?

[cumberlilly]

rdragon, the part that I'm unclear on is the timeline between your first experience with Paxil, which was very good, and your fish oil experience. How much time elapsed from when you stopped Paxil until you started the Fish Oil?

9 months... I stopped taking it in January of 2008, and I started taking the fish oil at the beginning of October/End of September.

[bgwithadd]

The thing is, there are only so many options here. If fish oil (ie fixed delusion?) supposedly did all this, what is the mechanism? That mechanism has to be something that would show up as another disease, so even if the fish oil is 100% to blame, so we should look at that. IE if fish oil made you psychotic first we have to identify that you are psychotic before we do anything else.

So what are the possibilities here? Aside from poisoning, that is.

Depression with psychotic features - Well, it didn't respond to SSRIs or lamictal, or seroquel, but did a bit to geodon. Could be, but not seeming likely, seems much more than depression. You could take some deprenyl. If you get much worse you have schizophrenia, if you get better depression, if nothing happens it's not schizophrenia and not straight depression, either, leaving probably some kind of bipolar.
schizophrenic - As I said before it comes on as you get older but you have been depressed and had panic attacks etc. so it is very possible.
bipolar - Probably not. You would have had some kind of response to something, even if it was a bad response. Bipolar takes a lot of forms, though.
schizoaffective - this basically means kind of like the other three but not sure what. A kind of catchall that makes sense for you.
cholinergic problems - cholinergic levels can cause all these symptoms. If you try taking choline or huperzine you can test out this theory very quickly, but it might be unpleasant.

Those are pretty much the only options, that's all there is to it. Ultimately you will have to try treating it and see how you respond or else you are going nowhere.

Edited by bgwithadd, 23 May 2009 - 03:53 AM.

[niner]

rdragon, the part that I'm unclear on is the timeline between your first experience with Paxil, which was very good, and your fish oil experience. How much time elapsed from when you stopped Paxil until you started the Fish Oil?

9 months... I stopped taking it in January of 2008, and I started taking the fish oil at the beginning of October/End of September.

OK. So assuming you felt fine during that entire 9 months (is that a valid assumption?) and given the close correlation of your condition to fish oil use, it sounds like the fish oil really may be at fault. From your description of things, it kind of sounds like the Paxil induced a hypomania. This is a relatively common response to SSRIs, and hypomanias feel great. Just like you describe. I can construct a hypothesis that is so tortured, I almost hate to pollute the discussion, but I'll throw it out with the caveat that it is very probably incorrect. Here it is: The hypomania masked your underlying pathology, along with physical symptoms. The fish oil tamped down but did not eliminate the hypomania. At some point the hypomania broke for good, leaving you feeling crappy again. I don't like this hypothesis. It doesn't explain how you could go from severe anxiety to a low anxiety state; that one is a puzzle. What does your psychiatrist think of the fish oil effect? Why didn't you bail out from the fish oil sooner, given the horrible effect it had on you?

[sUper GeNius]

And no Full Member, I have not been diagnosed with bipolar, he gave me the Lamictal because it was the next step in my treatment for depression.

Lamictal is a mood stabilizer, with very slight anti-depressive properties, particularly effective with mixed states and rapid cyclers.

Edited by FuLL meMbeR, 23 May 2009 - 03:59 AM.

[cumberlilly]

The thing is, there are only so many options here. If fish oil (ie fixed delusion?) supposedly did all this, what is the mechanism? That mechanism has to be something that would show up as another disease, so even if the fish oil is 100% to blame, so we should look at that. IE if fish oil made you psychotic first we have to identify that you are psychotic before we do anything else.

So what are the possibilities here? Aside from poisoning, that is.

Depression with psychotic features - Well, it didn't respond to SSRIs or lamictal, or seroquel, but did a bit to geodon. Could be, but not seeming likely, seems much more than depression. You could take some deprenyl. If you get much worse you have schizophrenia, if you get better depression, if nothing happens it's not schizophrenia and not straight depression, either, leaving probably some kind of bipolar.
schizophrenic - As I said before it comes on as you get older but you have been depressed and had panic attacks etc. so it is very possible.
bipolar - Probably not. You would have had some kind of response to something, even if it was a bad response. Bipolar takes a lot of forms, though.
schizoaffective - this basically means kind of like the other three but not sure what. A kind of catchall that makes sense for you.
cholinergic problems - cholinergic levels can cause all these symptoms. If you try taking choline or huperzine you can test out this theory very quickly, but it might be unpleasant.

Those are pretty much the only options, that's all there is to it. Ultimately you will have to try treating it and see how you respond or else you are going nowhere.

Out of all those options I say psychotic depression is the most likely. Psychotic in the sense that my depression is SO bad, that I COULD go psychotic from it. NOT schizophrenic psychotic, where you hallucinate and are paranoid and stuff. I also think my choline is EXTREMELY high, and that could be the reason why I'm responding so poorly to SSRI's and other drugs, because the choline is drowning out the effect of all my other neurotransmitters.

And yeah, I'm going to try out wellbutrin before deprenyl because wellbutrin COULD allow me to see if I'll respond positively to dopamine agonists. Even if I don't get any response to wellbutrin, I'm going to try deprenyl afterwords if my psych lets me have it. What kind of dietary restrictions does it have?

rdragon, the part that I'm unclear on is the timeline between your first experience with Paxil, which was very good, and your fish oil experience. How much time elapsed from when you stopped Paxil until you started the Fish Oil?

9 months... I stopped taking it in January of 2008, and I started taking the fish oil at the beginning of October/End of September.

OK. So assuming you felt fine during that entire 9 months (is that a valid assumption?) and given the close correlation of your condition to fish oil use, it sounds like the fish oil really may be at fault. From your description of things, it kind of sounds like the Paxil induced a hypomania. This is a relatively common response to SSRIs, and hypomanias feel great. Just like you describe. I can construct a hypothesis that is so tortured, I almost hate to pollute the discussion, but I'll throw it out with the caveat that it is very probably incorrect. Here it is: The hypomania masked your underlying pathology, along with physical symptoms. The fish oil tamped down but did not eliminate the hypomania. At some point the hypomania broke for good, leaving you feeling crappy again. I don't like this hypothesis. It doesn't explain how you could go from severe anxiety to a low anxiety state; that one is a puzzle. What does your psychiatrist think of the fish oil effect? Why didn't you bail out from the fish oil sooner, given the horrible effect it had on you?

Yes, I felt fine for those 9 months (probably hypomanic). And yes, I definitely agree with you about the hypomania part. I probably WAS hypomanic, but man, did it feel GOOD. =) I don't think it masked anything actually, I think it FIXED what was wrong with my serotonin and my excess norepinephrine. I think the anxiety dissapeared because of the increased serotonin.

I didn't bail out from the fish oil because I stupidly thought that my reaction was specific to the brands I had tried, when in fact, the same effect occurred with ALL brands. My psychiatrist doesn't really know what to think when I tell him it was caused by fish oil. He said that if it WAS caused by the fish oil, then it should be easily reversible because fish oil can really only do so much. IF however, this was all caused by something like cocaine or some other drug, THEN I would have reason to be scared. But it's JUST fish oil, so I shouldn't REALLY be freaking out.
-----------------------

On another note, some other things that I've noticed from this state that I'm currently in are what feel like little pinpricks of pleasure in my head. Kind of like someone poking a small pin into your brain, and it causing pleasure. I dunno what that means, but it's something that's kinda bothersome and it feels like my brain is TRYING to reactivate my pleasure system, but it CANT for some reason.

Another sensation I feel is like little flows of water or some chemical inside my head, flowing about, causing small, little sparks.

Edited by rdragon, 23 May 2009 - 06:50 AM.

[cumberlilly]

The thing is, there are only so many options here. If fish oil (ie fixed delusion?) supposedly did all this, what is the mechanism? That mechanism has to be something that would show up as another disease, so even if the fish oil is 100% to blame, so we should look at that. IE if fish oil made you psychotic first we have to identify that you are psychotic before we do anything else.

So what are the possibilities here? Aside from poisoning, that is.

Depression with psychotic features - Well, it didn't respond to SSRIs or lamictal, or seroquel, but did a bit to geodon. Could be, but not seeming likely, seems much more than depression. You could take some deprenyl. If you get much worse you have schizophrenia, if you get better depression, if nothing happens it's not schizophrenia and not straight depression, either, leaving probably some kind of bipolar.
schizophrenic - As I said before it comes on as you get older but you have been depressed and had panic attacks etc. so it is very possible.
bipolar - Probably not. You would have had some kind of response to something, even if it was a bad response. Bipolar takes a lot of forms, though.
schizoaffective - this basically means kind of like the other three but not sure what. A kind of catchall that makes sense for you.
cholinergic problems - cholinergic levels can cause all these symptoms. If you try taking choline or huperzine you can test out this theory very quickly, but it might be unpleasant.

Those are pretty much the only options, that's all there is to it. Ultimately you will have to try treating it and see how you respond or else you are going nowhere.

Out of all those options I say psychotic depression is the most likely. Psychotic in the sense that my depression is SO bad, that I COULD go psychotic from it. NOT schizophrenic psychotic, where you hallucinate and are paranoid and stuff. I also think my choline is EXTREMELY high, and that could be the reason why I'm responding so poorly to SSRI's and other drugs, because the choline is drowning out the effect of all my other neurotransmitters.

And yeah, I'm going to try out wellbutrin before deprenyl because wellbutrin COULD allow me to see if I'll respond positively to dopamine agonists. Even if I don't get any response to wellbutrin, I'm going to try deprenyl afterwords if my psych lets me have it. What kind of dietary restrictions does it have?

rdragon, the part that I'm unclear on is the timeline between your first experience with Paxil, which was very good, and your fish oil experience. How much time elapsed from when you stopped Paxil until you started the Fish Oil?

9 months... I stopped taking it in January of 2008, and I started taking the fish oil at the beginning of October/End of September.

OK. So assuming you felt fine during that entire 9 months (is that a valid assumption?) and given the close correlation of your condition to fish oil use, it sounds like the fish oil really may be at fault. From your description of things, it kind of sounds like the Paxil induced a hypomania. This is a relatively common response to SSRIs, and hypomanias feel great. Just like you describe. I can construct a hypothesis that is so tortured, I almost hate to pollute the discussion, but I'll throw it out with the caveat that it is very probably incorrect. Here it is: The hypomania masked your underlying pathology, along with physical symptoms. The fish oil tamped down but did not eliminate the hypomania. At some point the hypomania broke for good, leaving you feeling crappy again. I don't like this hypothesis. It doesn't explain how you could go from severe anxiety to a low anxiety state; that one is a puzzle. What does your psychiatrist think of the fish oil effect? Why didn't you bail out from the fish oil sooner, given the horrible effect it had on you?

Yes, I felt fine for those 9 months (probably hypomanic). And yes, I definitely agree with you about the hypomania part. I probably WAS hypomanic, but man, did it feel GOOD. =) I don't think it masked anything actually, I think it FIXED what was wrong with my serotonin and my excess norepinephrine. I think the anxiety dissapeared because of the increased serotonin.

I didn't bail out from the fish oil because I stupidly thought that my reaction was specific to the brands I had tried, when in fact, the same effect occurred with ALL brands. My psychiatrist doesn't really know what to think when I tell him it was caused by fish oil. He said that if it WAS caused by the fish oil, then it should be easily reversible because fish oil can really only do so much. IF however, this was all caused by something like cocaine or some other drug, THEN I would have reason to be scared. But it's JUST fish oil, so I shouldn't REALLY be freaking out.
-----------------------

On another note, some other things that I've noticed from this state that I'm currently in are what feel like little pinpricks of pleasure in my head. Kind of like someone poking a small pin into your brain, and it causing pleasure. I dunno what that means, but it's something that's kinda bothersome and it feels like my brain is TRYING to reactivate my pleasure system, but it CANT for some reason.

Another sensation I feel is like little flows of water or some chemical inside my head, flowing about, causing small, little sparks.

What are some good ways to lower your acetylcholine either by your diet, by supplement, and by drugs. Like, does anyone know any good antichlorgenics?

I suspect my choline levels are extremely elevated, and I have a hyperactive chlorgenic system which is causing all my symptoms described in this thread:

[bran319]

Your symptoms sound more like Depersonalization Personality Disorder than Schizo or Psychotic Depression. Do some research on it.

Edited by bran319, 23 May 2009 - 05:59 PM.

[cumberlilly]

Your symptoms sound more like Depersonalization Personality Disorder than Schizo or Psychotic Depression. Do some research on it.

I'm already diagnosed with that.

[bran319]

Your symptoms sound more like Depersonalization Personality Disorder than Schizo or Psychotic Depression. Do some research on it.

I'm already diagnosed with that.

Well there ya go. The thing about DPD is that it has a significant somatic component. In other words, the more you dwell on your symptoms the worse they will become. There is research behind this.

Opiate antagonists have been shown to be beneficial for DPD. Perhaps you could talk to your doctor about Naltrexone. Paxil/Naltrexone combination might be the trick as there is clinical evidence that Naltrexone can reverse SSRI poop-out.

Edited by bran319, 23 May 2009 - 07:37 PM.

[abelard lindsay]

What are some good ways to lower your acetylcholine either by your diet, by supplement, and by drugs. Like, does anyone know any good antichlorgenics?

I suspect my choline levels are extremely elevated, and I have a hyperactive chlorgenic system which is causing all my symptoms described in this thread:

If you wanted to deplete your choline you could take Piracetam. It's well known that Piracetam doesn't work that great without choline supplementation because it increases the rate at which one's brain processes choline requiring additional supplementation to keep up. You have unusual brain chemistry so I would go easy on it when first taking it. I really can't say what your reaction will be with how you responded to fish oil. Judging by the posts in the nootropics forum, a lot of people with mental health issues, especially ADHD and anxiety, seemed to be helped by it without any significant side effects.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 23 May 2009 - 07:52 PM.

[suprdupracetam]

You could be a partial carrier of a Single nucleotide polymorphism with a long chain fatty acid oxidation disorder or partial
lysosomal storage disorder. That way the fatty acids might be building up. Seems
unlikely but I thought I'd throw it out there.

However the answer may not be so exotic. You may just need a whole foods diet and some
hard core detoxification. mercury could cause many of the neurological issues you describe as well.

I would suggest you find a doctor through genovadiagnostics or some similar testing
agency that will run a metabolic fatty acid profile for you.

[Futurist1000]

Omega 3's have a lot of effects on brain processes. See this pdf article.

I personally do not like the effects of omega 3's.

Here are some of the effects (below). So the cause could basically be anything, if you have some sort of atypical brain chemistry that is finely balanced.

⇓ Dopamine vesicle pool
⇓ Dopamine content in frontal cortex
⇓ Dopamine content in olfactory bulb
⇑ Dopamine content in nucleus accumbens (NA)
⇓ Dopamine release from vesicle storage
⇓ Normal inhibitory control over NA dopamine
⇓ Vesicular monoamine transporter (VMAT2)
⇓ Pre/post synaptic dopamine receptor DR2 in frontal cortex
⇑ Pre/post synaptic dopamine receptor DR2 in NA
⇑ Serotonin receptor (5HT2) density in frontal cortex
(compensatory response)
⇓ Glucose uptake by neurons
⇓ Neuronal cytochrome oxidase activity
⇓ Blood-brain barrier integrity
⇓ Normal cerebral microperfusion
⇓ Sodium/potassium ATPase at nerve terminal
⇓ Fluidity at surface polar membrane
⇓ Phosphatidylserine in cortex, olfactory bulb, and
mitochondria
⇓ Hippocampal CA1 pyramidal neuron cell body size

Is there some way to purge your brain of omega 3's? Maybe by eating other types of omegas or other fats? Not too sure about that, but it could help.

Edited by Futurist1000, 24 May 2009 - 07:15 AM.

[cumberlilly]

You could be a partial carrier of a Single nucleotide polymorphism with a long chain fatty acid oxidation disorder or partial
lysosomal storage disorder. That way the fatty acids might be building up. Seems
unlikely but I thought I'd throw it out there.

However the answer may not be so exotic. You may just need a whole foods diet and some
hard core detoxification. mercury could cause many of the neurological issues you describe as well.

I would suggest you find a doctor through genovadiagnostics or some similar testing
agency that will run a metabolic fatty acid profile for you.

Thanks for the suggestions! And what specific kind of metabolic fatty acid profile are you talking about? Like the amount of DHA and EPA in my blood? Plus I don't think it was mercury poisoning because this same effect happened with 2 other brands...

Omega 3's have a lot of effects on brain processes. See this pdf article.

I personally do not like the effects of omega 3's.

Here are some of the effects (below). So the cause could basically be anything, if you have some sort of atypical brain chemistry that is finely balanced.

⇓ Dopamine vesicle pool
⇓ Dopamine content in frontal cortex
⇓ Dopamine content in olfactory bulb
⇑ Dopamine content in nucleus accumbens (NA)
⇓ Dopamine release from vesicle storage
⇓ Normal inhibitory control over NA dopamine
⇓ Vesicular monoamine transporter (VMAT2)
⇓ Pre/post synaptic dopamine receptor DR2 in frontal cortex
⇑ Pre/post synaptic dopamine receptor DR2 in NA
⇑ Serotonin receptor (5HT2) density in frontal cortex
(compensatory response)
⇓ Glucose uptake by neurons
⇓ Neuronal cytochrome oxidase activity
⇓ Blood-brain barrier integrity
⇓ Normal cerebral microperfusion
⇓ Sodium/potassium ATPase at nerve terminal
⇓ Fluidity at surface polar membrane
⇓ Phosphatidylserine in cortex, olfactory bulb, and
mitochondria
⇓ Hippocampal CA1 pyramidal neuron cell body size

Is there some way to purge your brain of omega 3's? Maybe by eating other types of omegas or other fats? Not too sure about that, but it could help.

Yeah it's RIDICULUOUS how many effects Omega 3's (DHA and EPA) have on the brain. Really, it could be any one of those reasons why I'm feeling so bad. The way to effectively purge my body of omega 3 would be by taking an Arachidonic Acid supplement.

Edited by rdragon, 24 May 2009 - 02:43 PM.

[k10]

I believe the fish oil does something to you, but I don't believe it is a direct cause (ie. elevating EPA or DHA), but rather an indirect one. I think it is just bringing out an underlying problem, which you have to figure out what that underlying problem is. My only suggestion is to investigate with more blood tests, and trials of medications and supplements like you have been doing, and eventually something will make sense.

[hullcrush]

You neglected prior to indicate Paxil. That's interesting, because it will cause a lot of shifts, mostly synergistically poor with fish oil. If you are in for a bit of reading, I will post.

If you don't like to read, I'd say most of my statements are in general true.

Healthy humans have a larger Th1 Response than Th2.

Fish oil contains Vitamin D (not going to cite), which shifts to Th2.

Fish oil itself causes a shift to Th2, sans Vitamin D.

Antidepressants have been shown to upregulate Th2, and decrease Th1.
---For instance, antidepressants suppress production of the Th1 cytokine interferon-gamma, independent of monoamine transporter blockade

Allergies are primarily a Th2 driven response. All of which

[cumberlilly]

I believe the fish oil does something to you, but I don't believe it is a direct cause (ie. elevating EPA or DHA), but rather an indirect one. I think it is just bringing out an underlying problem, which you have to figure out what that underlying problem is. My only suggestion is to investigate with more blood tests, and trials of medications and supplements like you have been doing, and eventually something will make sense.

I'm not sure about that, it seems like it's direct because everytime I ingest EPA and DHA my symptoms just get worse. What kind of blood tests should I have? A fatty acid profile check? And yeah, I really hope all of this will make sense sometime soon.

You neglected prior to indicate Paxil. That's interesting, because it will cause a lot of shifts, mostly synergistically poor with fish oil. If you are in for a bit of reading, I will post.

If you don't like to read, I'd say most of my statements are in general true.

Healthy humans have a larger Th1 Response than Th2.

Fish oil contains Vitamin D (not going to cite), which shifts to Th2.

Fish oil itself causes a shift to Th2, sans Vitamin D.

Antidepressants have been shown to upregulate Th2, and decrease Th1.
---For instance, antidepressants suppress production of the Th1 cytokine interferon-gamma, independent of monoamine transporter blockade

Allergies are primarily a Th2 driven response. All of which

Hmmm, I see.... yeah that's a possibility I guess, though probably not as likely...

[niner]

The way to effectively purge my body of omega 3 would be by taking an Arachidonic Acid supplement.

I don't think it works this way. Arachidonic Acid is a precursor to some inflammatory intermediates, while omega 3s are involved in some anti-inflammatory processes, but that doesn't mean that AA will displace EPA/DHA. I think specifically taking AA is not a good idea. There are a couple of questions here: Is your present state being maintained by a high level of EPA/DHA? The fact that it doesn't go away suggests that it's no longer a function of free fatty acids (which would drop quickly after you stop taking them), and that there has been some sort of shift in chemistry. Where does EPA/DHA go when you consume it? Some of it gets incorporated into membranes, where it has a fairly long half life, I believe. Does it also get sequestered in fatty tissue? Perhaps fasting would be a good approach. This should increase autophagy, which seems like it couldn't hurt here. Alternatively or perhaps in concert with some amount of caloric restriction, you could try increasing your intake of a wide spectrum of fatty acids, minus those contained in fish oil. There may be a more sophisticated way to go about this, though I don't know it offhand.

[cumberlilly]

The way to effectively purge my body of omega 3 would be by taking an Arachidonic Acid supplement.

I don't think it works this way. Arachidonic Acid is a precursor to some inflammatory intermediates, while omega 3s are involved in some anti-inflammatory processes, but that doesn't mean that AA will displace EPA/DHA. I think specifically taking AA is not a good idea. There are a couple of questions here: Is your present state being maintained by a high level of EPA/DHA? The fact that it doesn't go away suggests that it's no longer a function of free fatty acids (which would drop quickly after you stop taking them), and that there has been some sort of shift in chemistry. Where does EPA/DHA go when you consume it? Some of it gets incorporated into membranes, where it has a fairly long half life, I believe. Does it also get sequestered in fatty tissue? Perhaps fasting would be a good approach. This should increase autophagy, which seems like it couldn't hurt here. Alternatively or perhaps in concert with some amount of caloric restriction, you could try increasing your intake of a wide spectrum of fatty acids, minus those contained in fish oil. There may be a more sophisticated way to go about this, though I don't know it offhand.

No, I'm not maintaining my EPA/DHA levels because I stopped taking the fish oil quite a long time ago as I stated. But whatever chemistry shift it altered IS still in progress in my body, and considering that these fatty acids have a half-life of up to 2 years, they could very well still be in my body causing these symptoms. If not, then my body has somehow changed when I presented it with EPA and DHA, and I need to figure out a way to reverse these DRAMATIC changes in my brain chemistry and overall physiological processes.

For example, my dry eyes are no longer dry. They have been for my ENTIRE LIFE until I took the fish oil. 7 months after stopped it, there still NO longer DRY. That signifies that some physiological process or mechanism of the DHA and EPA IS in fact, still ongoing in my body. Otherwise, my dry eyes would've come back.

[bgwithadd]

No it doesn't, that's just poor logic. Even if assume it is the fish oil that started this, it's like saying that the butterfly that flapped its wings in singapore started the hurricaine that blew down your house. Going out and killing the butterfly isn't going to help you at all.

Then even if we make another assumption based on the previous bad assumption and take it for granted that it is something with the DHA and EPA still in your system wreaking havok then what? There's nothing you can do. There's no known mechanism for something like that, and if there's no known cause there's no possible treatment. If there was, someone would have suggested it by then.

So...here we go, back to square one. Now instead of fixating on something that's based on two questionable assumptions and which there's absolutely nothing you can do about why not look at possibilities there is at least some treatment for?

You are obviously in a fog of confusion over there. I can tell by your responses you just can't grasp much of what people are saying and you seem to misread every single post I make. You've been taking a lot of drugs so hopefully it's mostly related to that, and the moistness indicates something with the choline system so that is not a bad place to look if you refuse to consider the other recommendations (which can help regardless of being schizo).

[StrangeAeons]

The fish oil aspect has been discussed in another thread; I admit the case stumps me quite a bit, but I did cite a study there where it demonstrated (in rats) that if they were chronically on a diet with a high n6:n3 ratio that there were certain structural brain changes, but that when trying to shift the ratio lower (more omega-3's) the effect was not beneficial; there was an increase in dopamine receptors in the frontal cortex and increased serotonergic activity overall, but decreased dopamine binding in the basal ganglia and lmbic system, IIRC. The 5HT2A antagonism of Geodon might explain its benefit; I often wonder why psychiatrists don't augment with Trazodone first when they use an atypical antipsychotic-antidepressant combination.
Search for the "Opposite of Fish Oil" thread.
Barring the more obvious explanations of this shift, this seems the most plausible explanation.

rdragon, as far as your response to Paxil is concerned, I have to say that there's a pretty distinct possibility of you having a placebo effect, especially as (at least as far as you've told us) you were naive to psychotropic medication up until then.

I am really not amenable to calling this schizophrenia. Obviously lay people making psychiatric diagnoses over an internet forum aren't getting the whole picture, but all I see are possibly some descriptions of negative symptoms. Negative symptoms in isolation goes by another name: depression. Not a typical manifestation of depression, perhaps, but I don't get an impression of psychosis. Depersonalization isn't psychosis, either. It's a perceptual abnormality but it doesn't involve a disruption of logical thought or an inherent impairment in functionality. Arguably it could be caused by the increased DA tone in the frontal cortex relative to the limbic system, per the above putative mechanism.

[cumberlilly]

No it doesn't, that's just poor logic. Even if assume it is the fish oil that started this, it's like saying that the butterfly that flapped its wings in singapore started the hurricaine that blew down your house. Going out and killing the butterfly isn't going to help you at all.

Then even if we make another assumption based on the previous bad assumption and take it for granted that it is something with the DHA and EPA still in your system wreaking havok then what? There's nothing you can do. There's no known mechanism for something like that, and if there's no known cause there's no possible treatment. If there was, someone would have suggested it by then.

So...here we go, back to square one. Now instead of fixating on something that's based on two questionable assumptions and which there's absolutely nothing you can do about why not look at possibilities there is at least some treatment for?

You are obviously in a fog of confusion over there. I can tell by your responses you just can't grasp much of what people are saying and you seem to misread every single post I make. You've been taking a lot of drugs so hopefully it's mostly related to that, and the moistness indicates something with the choline system so that is not a bad place to look if you refuse to consider the other recommendations (which can help regardless of being schizo).

No I completely understand your posts, believe me. It's just that I know my body better than ANY of you, and I know exactly what specificly has changed with me since this whole fish oil incident. I think it's YOU who isn't listening to me when I say certain things. I really do like the advice you've given though, don't get wrong.

And I'm not in a fog because of the two medicines I'm on now, if I were, I'd tell you. The only thing I've been diagnosed with are depersonalization syndrome and depression; that's it. I definitely don't think I'm schizo, just my opinion.

Plus yeah, I'm definitely going to ask my psychiatrist about what he thinks about this whole choline problem at my next appointment with him next Wednesday.

The fish oil aspect has been discussed in another thread; I admit the case stumps me quite a bit, but I did cite a study there where it demonstrated (in rats) that if they were chronically on a diet with a high n6:n3 ratio that there were certain structural brain changes, but that when trying to shift the ratio lower (more omega-3's) the effect was not beneficial; there was an increase in dopamine receptors in the frontal cortex and increased serotonergic activity overall, but decreased dopamine binding in the basal ganglia and lmbic system, IIRC. The 5HT2A antagonism of Geodon might explain its benefit; I often wonder why psychiatrists don't augment with Trazodone first when they use an atypical antipsychotic-antidepressant combination.
Search for the "Opposite of Fish Oil" thread.
Barring the more obvious explanations of this shift, this seems the most plausible explanation.

rdragon, as far as your response to Paxil is concerned, I have to say that there's a pretty distinct possibility of you having a placebo effect, especially as (at least as far as you've told us) you were naive to psychotropic medication up until then.

I am really not amenable to calling this schizophrenia. Obviously lay people making psychiatric diagnoses over an internet forum aren't getting the whole picture, but all I see are possibly some descriptions of negative symptoms. Negative symptoms in isolation goes by another name: depression. Not a typical manifestation of depression, perhaps, but I don't get an impression of psychosis. Depersonalization isn't psychosis, either. It's a perceptual abnormality but it doesn't involve a disruption of logical thought or an inherent impairment in functionality. Arguably it could be caused by the increased DA tone in the frontal cortex relative to the limbic system, per the above putative mechanism.

Sorry but my reaction was DEFINITELY not placebo. =) I was pretty much cured by the Paxil, and I'm also fairly certain that it WAS in fact, hypomania. But anyways I really think that the decreased dopamine in my limbic system and basal ganglia that you mention is DEFINITELY interesting.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ill report back to everyone in this thread after my appointment with my psychiatrist next Wednesday. I plan on asking for deprenyl, and if he doesn't give that to me then Wellbutrin. Again, I really appreciate all the advice everyone gives me in this thread, especially with bgwithadd and StrangeAeons.

Edited by rdragon, 25 May 2009 - 03:21 AM.

[StrangeAeons]

A psychiatrist is unlikely to prescribe selegeline, except as EMSAM which is a bit different. At anything but it's lowest dose, it appears to work as an antidepressant via MAO-A bleedover, essentially making it a classical MAOI with a favorable side-effect profile and preferential dopaminergic activity. As for the choline angle... believe me, we're still very, very far away from having a clear pathophysiological model of any mental illness, least of all schizophrenia; this is apparently a point of contention between me and bgwithadd. The two warring models right now is the antiquated dopamine hypothesis and the relatively new glutamate hypotheses (focusing on NMDA receptors). I would definitely consider asking to switch from Geodon to Trazodone, to see if it's that isolated MOA that's benefiting you; added benefit: no dopamine antagonism.

And to explain: I think the reasons you believe Paxil wasn't placebo are precisely the ones that lead me to believe they are. Do you realize how lucky you would have to be to have complete remission of symptoms on your first trial of an antidepressant? Equally suspect is the fact that the effects were sustained even when you neglected the medication, which is unlikely unless the placebo effect simply allowed you to discretely transition into a euthymic/hypomanic state. This makes the concept of you "triggering" back into an even more depressive state far more likely, although the specific reason you would see the fish oil as a trigger is probably something that would take a great deal of delving into to make sense of. At this point, in spite of how much I enjoy the novelty and cleverness of my EFA theory I think your hoofbeats lead to a horse like this one, not my lovely zebra.
I know this forum is geared towards a physiological understanding of these conditions, but I think it's important that you also consider the possible benefit of psychotherapy.

Edited by StrangeAeons, 25 May 2009 - 05:39 AM.