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Paleo Diet


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#1 DJS

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 11:26 AM


Lately I have been searching for a diet that is right for me. My eating habits are relatively healthy, or so I thought. Truth be told, I had (and probably still have) no idea how to properly formulate a diet.

For a while I considered CR, but it seemed a little too extreme. The weight loss that is inherent with CR was a major issue for me. I visited the CR Society and other CR sites. They were very informative and very honest. They stated that CR was not for every one and that there were negative (as well as positive) side effects to practicing CR. I have decided that, at this time, CR is not right for me. However later in life I may give it a try if a treatment isn't developed to mimic it's effects by my mid thirties. I wish all of the current practitioners of CR the best of luck, and health!

A while back I heard the term paleo-diet or neanderthin diet and thought it sounded interesting but kept putting any serious research of it on the back burner. Recently, I have begun to look into Paleo again and I think that this may be the diet for me. It’s not what I would consider extreme. You don't have to starve yourself and it’s based on the best scientific evidence of what we were evolved to eat. Of course I'm putting things very simply, but I think that is part of the beauty of this diet. It can be made "simple" if you're looking for simple.

It can also be made very complicated. For instance, if you wanted to find out your optimal diet, according to some experts, you would have to take into account whatever ethnic group you originated from and the amount of time said group has had to adapt to Neolithic eat habits. The longer the exposure, the more suited you are to eat "Neolithic" or grains, carbs... basically agricultural food products.

I am creating this thread to post articles related to the Paleo diet and also to have dialogue with anyone interested in talking about it. I plan to begin my Paleo diet on Feb. 1st.

The link below is for a really cool site that provides info on

1. humanity’s prehistory diet and ape diets
2. fire and cooking in human evolution
3. lots lots more stuff

The site is really comprehensive, but if you just want to brouse for topics you want it is a lot easier to click on the table of contents and go from there.

beyondveg.com

#2 Bruce Klein

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 11:36 AM

Right... a diet which matches what our bodies evolved to agree with is optimum. As we live in a wonderland of excessive carbs, I suggest starting by replacing all drinks with water. Then working to eventually replace most all high carb foods with higher protein rich foods = fish, meat, poultry, etc.

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#3 Lazarus Long

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 01:09 PM

The aspect of the paleo diet that is ignoring the genetics is the relationship of seasonal famine and associated foodstuffs. In other words the paleo diet assumes a measure of winter/spring fasting (CR) and summer/fall feasting.

It also should include an element of seasonal sourcing, ie red meat in winter and veggies in summer (fish/poultry all the time). This is actually a variation on macrobiotics. The more the studies of the relationship of obesity to genetics are resolved the more it looks like it is directly related to the feast/famine cycles associated with climate.

Why do people think they can extract genetic aspects of biology from the environmental conditions under which biology evolves?

I suggest a review of paleontology and physical anthropology are required to dissect the myth from fact on modern arguments over a diet like this. I do however agree that adaptive genetics is one important tool for understanding what is going on.

Nevertheless be careful because the feast/famine cycle when not controlled is what leads to obesity as the genes for diet are also related to emotions and this is why there exists a "comfort food effect" psychologically as "survival stress" is generated during famine (fasting). This stress can be overcome through discipline but when it is not the results can be catastrophic.

#4 Lazarus Long

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 02:44 PM

BTW Don, a significant amount of protein in that diet came from eating carrion as uncooked and dried flesh (jerky) as well as all the organ meats. It also included running for hours each day in the hunt as well as foraging for firewood, carrying the spoils and most of all it involved a collective mess not individual meals.

Breakfast was last night's stew from a common cauldron with some mush of boiled whole wild grains (high fiber) a few onions and maybe if lucky fruit leaf tea. A lot of the myth's of the paleo diet are shattered if you study paleontology and appreciate exactly what and how people did survive in packs then.

Food wasn't an open pit roast until the kill was carried back to the hearth. On the trail the meat was the organ meat (liver, heart, etc) and intestines, fat, and waste cuttings were used for making smoked sausage for ease of carrying and storage. Some was consumed on the trail and some made it back from the base camp to the hearth camp if the hunt was good. Pelts were lightly dried and cured and everything that could be was carried back to the hearth.

The hunters were the foragers and the base camp was part slaughter house, part field kitchen, and nobody ate by themselves. Older hunters kept up the food processing and younger faster ones went for the kills but if a half chewed carcass of venison was found and predators that took could be driven off then humans behaved like hyenas and did so. Into the stew pot it went too.

Also the paleo diet included rotten and "fermented" foods and beverages. The "aged meats" and "gamy" flavors are still relished in some quarters for this reason as well as such delicacies as Chinese eggs. These concepts go back to the earliest period of human diet. The importance of this aspect is lost on most people but it is more significant than they realize as we can thank this practice for our intestinal flora that contribute to both our omnivorous digestion and some of our immune response.

Besides stews the diet was very heavy on fibrous tough grains and even some tree barks and stem plants. Tubers and some reeds were cooked to add flavor and substance to a stew and virtually every meal was "grueling".

Language is a form of paleontology too.

Take a look at the teeth of the fossils we do find and the age is measured rapidly by tooth wear.

Also nuts and hard-bread as well as sweetmeats (brains) were routinely a part of every cull and kill. Organ meats didn't last so they were the first consumed. Nuts lasted through winter so they were saved for that period as well as smoked meats and dried fruits. Again many traditions of the Christmas feast for example come from this period. But without good preservation technique, and modern refrigeration (even in an ice age) by spring we were eating moldy carrion and spoiled grains etc. This is probably how the process of fermentation was first noticed and this too is a part of building civilization ironically.

If you want bad food and lots of exercise just move to the third world and live among the poor. All too many live too close to the true paleo diet still. If you want to understand the paleo diet better study the habits of Mongols, Eskimo, and some Africa and Asian tribes like the Maori and Mung. There were still true hunter gatherers well into the 20th century though contact has destroyed all of them now. All have distinctly common characteristics that are adapted to their particular regional conditions.

#5 Jace Tropic

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 10:08 PM

Don, just my opinion:

Consider that if current technology were to stand still, no diet would increase your potential maximum longevity by very much unless you’re very obese with some noticeable health problems—which I know is not the case with you. Therefore, instead of trying to drastically increase PML through specific diet plans, I would aim for optimum physical fitness and free-ride, invest in, or engineer true advances in human longevity.

I don’t know what you already do and don’t do in regards to health, so I apologize if I’m assuming too little, but optimum physical fitness is the development of an optimal level of cardiovascular endurance, muscular strength and flexibility, as well as the achievement and maintenance of ideal body weight.

In considering your health in terms of fitness rather than* longevity, what follows is a natural anti-depressant (even better if you’re not depressed to begin with) and mental clarity that only gets better if you are already taking nootropics or using caffeine in moderation. The only downfall, unfortunately, is the time involved in taking care of yourself in this fashion (around 10 or more hours a week). However, feeling all around healthier might make you more efficient and, hence, a better decision maker in the long run, sustaining whatever intellectual potency you deem required for making true immortality possible.

The key thing is to not get hung up on quantity (age-wise) over quality when we already know that anything falling into the categories of "diet" and "exercise" are not the means for immortal ends.

*Edit

Edited by Jace Tropic, 27 January 2004 - 05:05 PM.


#6 ocsrazor

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 10:58 PM

Completely agree Jace.

One thing you guys have to realize is that the diet that opimized survival for humans in the last Ice Age, optimized their performance and survival for roughly 35 years, not for extended longevity.

#7 DJS

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 04:46 AM

One thing you guys have to realize is that the diet that opimized survival for humans in the last Ice Age, optimized their performance and survival for roughly 35 years, not for extended longevity.


Peter, I have found sources that would dispute your statement. I felt the same way as you when I first thought about it. However, as the chart (I put it in archived photos as I couldn't get attachments onto this thread for some reason? If anyway cares to help this poor computer illiterate fool, please by all means...) shows, life expectancy actually dropped after a neolithic diet was adopted by humans. This, along with the fact that human life expectancy did not significantly rise until a century or two ago, would seem to suggest that there is little if any direct correlation between the low prehistoric human life expectancies and diet. Instead, a more logical conclusion would be that the significantly lower life expectancies were correlates of factors such as nomadic life style, warring, and predation.

Would you care to further support your answer? I am trying to rationally assess the paleo diet. As such, I am taking the pros and the cons and forming my opinion. I am not the kind of person who goes on fad diets on a whim. Although I have a relatively healthy diet, I have never put any serious planning into it. One of the goals I have set for myself is to exert more control over my diet.

Longevity & health in ancient Paleolithic
vs. Neolithic peoples

By: Ward Nicholson


How does the health/longevity of late Paleolithic hunters-gatherers compare with that of the Neolithic farmers who succeeded them? Periodically one will hear it stated in online discussion forums devoted to raw foods and vegetarianism that Paleolithic peoples only lived to be 25 (or 30, or 35) years, or whatever age. (The lack of exactitude in such figures illustrates how substantiating one's "scientific facts" is not usually a very highly emphasized value in these forums.) The intended point usually being that those terribly debauched flesh-eating cavemen--and women, presumably--were not living very long due to their consumption of meat.
As is often the case with such "facts," however, if one looks at the documented sources, one sees a different picture. Here we present a summary of a classic paper on the health and longevity of late Paleolithic (pre-agricultural) and Neolithic (early agricultural) people. [Source: Angel, Lawrence J. (1984) "Health as a crucial factor in the changes from hunting to developed farming in the eastern Mediterranean." In: Cohen, Mark N.; Armelagos, George J. (eds.) (1984) Paleopathology at the Origins of Agriculture (proceedings of a conference held in 1982). Orlando: Academic Press. (pp. 51-73)]
Note that these figures come from studies in the field of "paleopathology" (investigation of health, disease, and death from archaeological study of skeletons) of remains in the eastern Mediterranean (defined in Angel's paper to also include Greece and western Turkey), an area where a more continuous data sample is available from ancient times. Due to the unavoidable spottiness of the archaeological record in general, however, samples from the Balkans, the Ukraine, North Africa, and Israel were included for the earliest (Paleolithic and Mesolithic) periods. While the populations in the region were not always directly descended from one another, focusing the study within the eastern Mediterranean minimizes bias in the data due to genetic change over time.
The table below is adapted and condensed considerably from Angel's full table included in the above paper. Angel comments on the indicators given in the table below that archaeologically, lifespan is the simplest indicator of overall health. Growth and nutrition status can be generally indicated by skull base height, pelvic inlet depth index, and adult stature--the latter two of which are shown here in addition to lifespan.


Posted Image


One can see from the above data that things are rarely as clear-cut as dietary purists would like them to be. For any period in time, there is good and there is bad.
The main thing to note here about the short average life spans compared to modern times is that the major causes are thought to have been "occupational hazards," i.e., accidents, trauma, etc., stresses of nomadism, and so forth. It is not always clear how strongly other conclusions can be drawn about the effect of diet from these figures, but all other things being equal--
• Median longevity decreased slightly during the first several millennia after the introduction of agricultural foods during which plant foods became a greater part of the diet, and meat a lesser part, than previously. This would seem to indicate that meat/protein consumption itself would not have been the factor responsible for decreased longevity (since less of it was being eaten after the late Paleolithic).
• From some of the later time periods involved where civilizations were on the rise and fall, it appears that social factors have the biggest impact on longevity, particularly since longevity never rose above about age 45 for long, often falling below that figure for centuries at a time, until the 1900s, since which time it has almost doubled. Perhaps the most reliable conclusion to be drawn from the data here is that while diet is a significant influence on longevity, it is only part of the mix, and perhaps not as powerful a determinant as other factors. Angel himself comments on the interplay among them:
The table shows two differing breakdowns of health with subsequent advances. [Note: in the original table, there were additional data besides the above that indicated health status as based on skeletal indices.] First, there was a fairly sharp decline in growth and nutrition during the confusions and experiments of the transformation from hunting to farming, with its many inventions and increasing trade and disease between about 10,000 and 5,000 B.C. Partial recoveries and advances in health occurred during the Bronze Age rise of civilization; then real advance (e.g., a 7 to 11-year increase in longevity) occurred with the rise of Hellenic-Roman culture. Second, there was an increase in disease and crowding during the decline and religious metamorphosis of the Roman Empire, eventually leading to an irregular breakdown of general, but not nutritional, health under a complex disease load, from about A.D. 1300 to 1700. (p. 58)
Other interesting tidbits on diet and health from Angel's paper relating to the Paleolithic/Neolithic transition:
• In prehistoric times (which would include Paleolithic, Mesolithic, and Neolithic periods in the table above), human infant mortality was 20-30%. (For wild animals, the figure is 60-80%.) Few people lived much past the end of their fertile reproductive period.
• Paleolithic females died younger than males due to the stresses of pregnancy and childbirth while still carrying the burdens of food-collecting and moving camp.
• "The best explanation for relatively short [Paleolithic] life span is the combination of stresses of nomadism, climate, and warfare. The latter is especially clear in the Jebel Sahaba population, where projectile wounds affecting bone are very common and 'almost half the population probably died violently.' [Wendorf 1968]" (pp. 59-60) [Note: violence/trauma as a major cause of death was also true of the Mesolithic as well.]
• A somewhat more sedentary pattern during the Mesolithic increased longevity of females slightly due to lessened migration stress. On the other hand, the incipient decreases seen in stature indicate a somewhat increased level of disease (such as malaria, hookworm), likely resulting from more settlements near water and marshes. (Increased seafood consumption in lieu of red meat may also have had the effect of reduced caloric consumption, a contributor to nutritional stress as well.)
• Drop in stature due to nutritional stress begins appearing in places during the Mesolithic although in general it is still good. One site shows signs of seasonal growth arrest. [Note: Growth arrest lines in bone are seen in the young of populations experiencing seasonal food shortages and consequent nutritional shortfall.] There are also a few site-specific (i.e., localized, not widespread) indications of anemia (i.e., porotic hyperostosis, which is bone marrow-space thickening and porosity), possibly due to thalassemia, a new disease which apparently evolved a few thousand years earlier. Hunting continued at a high enough level, however, so that protein and vitamin D levels were maintained at sufficient levels to sustain relatively healthy growth, and only small losses in adult stature are seen overall compared to the Paleolithic.
• Mesolithic subsistence was characterized by four new practices and inventions: (1) The use of "composite" tools fashioned from multiple rather than simply single materials, including harpoons, arrows, and sickles; (2) the bow-and-arrow (which partially replaced spears and atlatls [an atlatl is a spear-throwing device]; (3) domestication of the dog for hunting (which also became pets); and (4) harvesting of wild grain (prior to actual cultivation later). A 100m rise in sea level at this time due to climatic warming led to encroachment of water further inland promoting a northward spread of malaria into populations not yet adapted. The rise in sea level tended to restrict migration; however, trading for obsidian (a type of volcanic stone/glass prized for sharp-edged tools) helped offset this, and promoted knowledge and spread of farming practices and also sailboats and fishing.
• During the Neolithic, population density increased from 10 to 50-fold over the Paleolithic, supported by the spread of grain-farming. Angel estimates meat consumption fell to 10-20% of the Paleolithic level with this transition in subsistence.
• Neolithic sites show an increasingly settled way of life as exemplified by evidence of food storage. However, farming was hard work, and skeletal evidence shows signs of the heavy effort needed, which--combined with a diet adequate in calories but barely or less than adequate in minerals from the depleting effects of phytate (phytates in grains bind minerals and inhibit absorption)--led to a state of low general health. The considerable decrease in stature at this time (roughly 4-6 inches, or 12-16 cm, shorter than in pre-agricultural times) is believed to have resulted from restricted blood calcium and/or vitamin D, plus insufficient essential amino acid levels, the latter resulting from the large fall in meat consumption at this time (as determined by strontium/calcium ratios in human bone remains).
• Most disease stressors in evidence at this time came from crowded settlement, and included hookworm, dysentery, and malaria consequent upon more frequent location of settlements near marshes/streams without tree cover. Also at this time, genetic adaptation to endemic infectious diseases such as malaria began to occur.
• Low nutritional and health status continued from the late Neolithic with only slight fluctuations until Classical times 5,000 years later, as told in the evidence of skull base height 15% below the Paleolithic norm, a pelvic inlet depth index 7% below, and 3 to 4 times higher rates of dental disease. (Efficient early childhood growth is reflected in skull base height and in evidences of dental health, while pelvic inlet depth index and long-bone roundness are indicators of the degree of late childhood nutrition.) Strontium/calcium ratios point to low levels of red meat consumption. However, zinc levels were on a par with those of modern times (a mineral that typically is gotten in the largest quantities from animal foods) strongly suggesting it was coming from fish, since red meat consumption was low, and the zinc levels found are beyond the amounts possible from plant-food consumption only.
Given this animal food source for critical skeletal-building minerals--which would normally also be reflected in good values for skull base height, pelvic inlet depth, and adult stature--the poor mineral status reflected in these measurements points to part of the explanation as the effect of continued phytate intake from grains, a substance which binds minerals preventing efficient absorption.
Angel sums up the Paleolithic-to-Neolithic-and-beyond transition as follows [p. 68]:
Disease effects were minor in the Upper [Late] Paleolithic except for trauma. In post glacially hot areas, porotic hyperostosis [indicative of anemia] increased in Mesolithic and reached high frequencies in Neolithic to Middle Bronze times. [Reminder note: The end of the last Ice Age and the consequent melting of glaciers which occurred at the cusp of the Paleolithic/Neolithic transition caused a rise in sea level, with a consequent increase in malaria in affected inland areas which became marshy as a result.] Apparently this resulted mainly from thalassemias, since children show it in long bones as well as their skulls. But porotic hyperostosis in adults had other causes too, probably from iron deficiency from hookworm, amebiasis, or phytate, effect of any of the malarias. The thalassemias necessarily imply falciparum malaria. This disease may be one direct cause of short stature.
The other pressure limiting stature and probably also fertility in early and developing farming times was deficiency of protein and of iron and zinc from ingestion of too much phytic acid [e.g., from grains] in the diet. In addition, new diseases including epidemics emerged as population increased, indicated by an increase of enamel arrest lines in Middle Bronze Age samples....
We can conclude that farmers were less healthy than hunters, at least until Classical to Roman times. Due to the difficulty in disentangling all relevant factors, as Angel explains a bit earlier we cannot state exactly how much less healthy they were, however, or exactly how or why.



#8 reason

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 05:01 AM

Paleo is healthy - I used it as a stepping stone to CR. The big benefits from paleo come from not eating processed food...i.e. cutting way down on empty calories and sugars. From paleo to CR is actually a fairly short leap. I comment on that in this page:

http://www.longevity...restriction.cfm

(Scroll down a ways).

Reason
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reason@longevitymeme.org
http://www.longevitymeme.org

#9 ocsrazor

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 05:35 AM

Hi Don,

I did quite a bit of research on diet as it affects aging a few years ago. To be more specific about my statement above, the diet of paleolithic humans was optimized for large amounts of physical activity and for early reproduction (which is not the condition of the overwhelming majority of us today), and was one of forced scarcity. This is not the type of diet you want though to have to maintain maximum longevity.

I absolutely believe we consume far too many carbohydrates (and calories period)in this society, and I think it is absolutely true that average age of humans dropped slightly as they became sedentary due to settling into agrarian societies. I think this was probably due to the twin factors of increased carbohydrate intake and the loss of physical activity. BUT... I still think the paleo diet is off the mark as being the best solution for most people (with the exception of extreme athletes).

The short summary on what I think is optimal diet and exercise for longevity is:

1- CR works! Reducing the total number of calories while maintaining optimal nutrition is absolutely the best method of extending your longevity we have now. This optimal balance is going to be different for every person though and may require quite a bit of tweaking. I think the major piece of the puzzle most CR people are missing is physical activity though and eat so little that they maintain too low an activity level.

2- High Protein/Low Carb diets are dangerous for your brain. Putting yourself in a ketotic state will cause you to burn fat stores, but will also cause you to burn fat from places you dont want to, i.e. the insulation around your nerves. Maintaining a balanced diet which is somewhere in between the ridiculously high carb reccomendations of the USDA and the ridiculously stupid no-carb reccomendations of Atkins is a happy medium. My impression of the paleo diet is that its protein/carb ratio are still too skewed towards Atkins but I haven't looked at them recently, so I might need to look again.

3 - Be very careful with fasting or cycling your diet. Just like any another adaptive system, a little stress on your energy management system will make it stronger. Too much, too often though will destroy its ability to adapt forcing the system farther and farther from optimal. For normal day to day operation, frequent small meals equally spaced and of equal size is probably the way to go. This will put the least stress on your insulin/glucagon system which I am convinced is one of the key weak points in human aging.

4-Optimal physical activity is absolutely crucial for maintaining longevity. Too much or too little will cause problems. Too much causes permanent damage to currently nonrepairable parts (joints mainly). Too little will prevent the body from being able to maintain proper hormone, neuromodulator, immune function, and cell turn over levels - and generally cause an inability to react to stress of any kind. I think some of the more athletic forms of yoga and similar activities are probably the optimal form of exercise for longevity.

All that said, Jace is still right, you can only get so much out of diet and exercise, so don't stress about it too much. Find a happy medium which you think is optimal for you and don't do too much damage to your body. Don't forget your mental state is also going to affect your longevity as well.

Best,
Peter

#10 Bruce Klein

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 08:54 AM

Don: I couldn't get attachments onto this thread for some reason?


I've fixed this now, Don.

#11 Lazarus Long

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 01:52 PM

Also Don before I continue with a a follow up response that basically agrees with much of what Peter and Jace have contributed I will focus on a point of posting.

I noticed you uploaded a graph for this thread on to the photos thread I created for that purpose.

Now all you have to do to post that image here is to go back to that thread and right click the image (this assumes Windows) and a menu will appear; click properties.

When the "properties" window opens you will see a URL ending in a gif, jpg, etc, depicted, copy it and then return to this thread and insert that code into an "Image" command for the post you wish to edit or make, it will then appear after you submit the edit or make the post.

There are two ways to insert images, one is the automatic using the IMG button that is above the edit window when you are correcting text, and the other is manually as the command is simple. (asterisks are inserted to disable the command)

[img*]http://www.whateveradressiscopied.gif[/img*]

Make sure there are no spaces before or after the address being posted. I hope that helps you and all others still becoming familiar with posting options.

laz

#12 Bruce Klein

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 03:28 PM

you can also show code by placing the code bracket around text:

example:

[img]http://www.whateveradressiscopied.gif[/img]


#13 Lazarus Long

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Posted 27 January 2004 - 04:17 PM

from article:
• During the Neolithic, population density increased from 10 to 50-fold over the Paleolithic, supported by the spread of grain-farming. Angel estimates meat consumption fell to 10-20% of the Paleolithic level with this transition in subsistence.


This is an example of faulty reasoning because the causal aspects of why are not addressed. Nor the causal impetus for the transition.

The reasons are well understood and focus on over hunting. Many species such as in Australia are hunted into extinction by humans using wasteful but effective methods like prairie fire to make large kills. Over hunting leads to famine and this cycle is repeated so often it is the rule rather than the exception even today.

All attempts at regulation are met with resistance and still are but also the reasons for controlling hunting grounds are not generally understood, as classes of first sedentary, then "urbanized" populations develop away from understanding the relationship to the land.

The second reasons besides that for limiting the hunting efficiency is territorial competition as the hunter clans are successful they over exploit a region and then go into competition with neighboring clans, combined this competition builds to a "peak resource" exploitation curve that produces catastrophic competition in the form of warfare and the populations self regulate through generalized Darwinian murder.

The very first rule of the paleo diet is that which does not kill makes you strong. If it tries to kill you then you kill it and eat it first. This is a warriors "creed" and the reason that ritual eating of large carnivore meat is still practiced even though the quality of that meat is the poorest. But it is also why token toxins are consumed that stress the immune system and can result in stronger metabolisms (if you survive).

Besides the blood, bone, and gristle which were also mainstays of classic paleo diets there were also roots and grubs. If it crawled and looked juicy like a grasshopper or a big worm it was eaten. Some of these are still consumed today (escargot, grasshoppers, crayfish, and meal worms). To be the top of the food chain you must consume all that you encounter. Hunter warrior clans didn't just eat the catch, they ate the bait too.

Now an interesting thing about the hunter strategies not addressed in the biased article above is that it ignores some very controversial aspects of the fossil record that show that neolithic hunter practices nearly wiped out humans completely at the beginning of Cro Magnon resulting in as few as two thousands individuals globally to whom we are all related. That is also a reason for the close genetics between all humans. This is seen as possibly the result of the outline I described above combined with some aspect of climactic collapse associated with the ice age but the end result was that humanity is nearly driven to extinction and through a combination of sedentary and hunting techniques early villages are formed and the general population makes a come back in neolithic times.

After sedentary and hunter gatherers begin to coexist a different dynamic for resource competition comes into play involving trade and exchange of resources that is seen in examples like the Mongols, Huns, and others interacting and preserving their cultures in hard times as "migrant workers" for larger established states. A real problem with any of this is that people color all their perspective of the past with their personal mythologies, their values of what should be "right".

Jace, Peter AND Reason make very valid points IMO and I would add to Jace's argument that the balance of diet and exercise is far more important than you are treating. This isn't about just the amount, or quality of the calories (though these are very important) it is also about the character and quantity of physical labor.

These hunter warriors slept shortly after dark, kept sentry duty but awoke well before dawn into a day of non stop intense physical labor. Preparing for hauling or hunting and running dozens of miles everyday with a full pack. When not hunting they were hauling, trapping, patrolling, preparing for the hunt and war, or involved in combat or the butchery of the kill.

We still practice a "three meals a day" regimen for example handed down to us from sedentary farming and hard labor, as well as a work day around sunlight (actually built into our genes) that are not appropriate to the urban culture that we are building and some people are already mutated to adapt to the newer system while others are literally not physically or mentally prepared for such a transition.

The hunters probably had a different system more like soldiers on the march, a hearty but not too great breakfast, grazing at strategic intervals, a resting meal in the mid day sun and then a round off meal at dusk of wet stew or soups. Liquids in this life were as, if not "more" important than protein, also the importance of electrolyte balance cannot be underestimated as their needs would parallel intense athletic demand.

As we understand this better we will be able to tailor our metabolisms better to meet our needs and design appropriate diet/exercise regimens to meet our real physical characteristics. There's no single optimal program, there are a variety of methods for optimizing a program to fit individual demand. A bricklayer doesn't require the same things as bureaucrat, or a child as an adult.

This is where the questions of habit and perceptions of equality are important as ideas of economic class cloud the reality that poor people actually eat better in many respects than the rich and comfort is still a psychological aspect of diet.

#14 DJS

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 02:26 AM

First, thanks Laz, BJ for the info. As you can see I have made use of it.

A real problem with any of this is that people color all their perspective of the past with their personal mythologies, their values of what should be "right".


Yes, I agree. The field of paleontology (upon whose evidence this diet is based) is notorious for it's confirmation bias; ie making the sparse evidence available fit into an existing frame work. As a side note, this is also why I feel that the acceptance of molecular data and gathering techniques is essential in attaining a more accurate picture in the field of phylogenetics.

Why do people think they can extract genetic aspects of biology from the environmental conditions under which biology evolves?


Then you view the diet as speculative, and or, too simplistic. To a certain extent I agree with you, however you can hardly dispute the fact that carbohydrates were a very limited part of our diet up until the transition to a Neolithic life style 10,000 years ago. I also agree with BJ when he says…

Right... a diet which matches what our bodies evolved to agree with is optimum.


The real question I have is whether our bodies have begun to evolve/adapt to our Neolithic diet since the transition 10K years ago. Inotherwords – “Are some carbs good? And if so, to what extend?”

I suggest a review of paleontology and physical anthropology are required to dissect the myth from fact on modern arguments over a diet like this. I do however agree that adaptive genetics is one important tool for understanding what is going on.


This statement is fair. My main attraction to the paleo diet arises from the fact that I believe that carbs are by and large BAD. The question I have still not answered for myself is to what extend they are bad. I have already cut all excess sugar from my diet. This means using equal in my coffee, diet coke (with the eventual goal of switching completely to water), no cookies/sweets. So I have started a transition of sorts. I have also sworn off all pasta for about two years now, not because of my opinions on diet, but because pasta makes me feel sick and lethargic.

Jace, Peter AND Reason make very valid points IMO and I would add to Jace's argument that the balance of diet and exercise is far more important than you are treating.  This isn't about just the amount, or quality of the calories (though these are very important) it is also about the character and quantity of physical labor.


I created this thread to discuss the legitimacy of the paleo diet, not the importance of exercise. I think you misunderstood me a little bit in this regard. If you met me on a tennis or basketball court I can assure you that you would know you were playing against a 24 year old. I had three varsity letters in high school; cross country, basketball and tennis. I don’t have big enough hands to palm a basketball, but give me a tennis ball and I’ll show you a dunk (I’m only 5’10”).

I like to run, although I have neglected this as of late with the weather being as it is. I am not one to engage in repetitive exercises as I am admittedly ADD and find it hard to maintain the necessary focus. I much prefer competitive sports, but adding some weight training is another one of my goals since I would very much like to put on some of that “masculine” upper body mass that has always eluded me.

Good stuff guys, it has made me rethink my position and commit to more research before I embark on a diet. That said, I do not think that having a regimented diet is “over doing it” as having control over what I consume goes a long way towards attaining optimal health.

#15 Lazarus Long

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Posted 29 January 2004 - 03:34 AM

On exercise Don you are missing my point. I was not saying it in a manner of all or nothing; I was saying that all the exercise you do on a good day is a fraction of what was done in a day in neolithic times and more importantly your proportion of caloric intake to exercise is far greater. They drove themselves much harder than we would willingly do and with good reason they were struggling with a feast and famine cycle but the work was relatively constant for their whole short lives. When the hunt was good many lived longer but in periods of famine they died or took up raiding those that were better off.

We can measure and meet the demands of the flesh in a more knowledgeably balanced manner but in those times they are operating on Caloric Restriction often and still doing five or six times as much physical labor as you on a hard day of play. They were doing it to survive. If you didn't work your hardest on the hunt you could find yourself hunting alone and that would lead even faster to starvation in lean times.

Many interesting aspects of the Palo diet can be understood from studying the practices and diets of mountain men from the late 13th through the period of pre civil war when they disappeared. By the way Mountain weren't alone they went "native".

These guys lived off the "land" not just flesh. "Carbs" are really the issue, "Processed carbs" are the problem, not to mention the additives and fillers used to "enhance", "preserve", "flavor", "color" and "otherwise make food lightly addictive through excess sweeting. Sugar originally was about preservation less than flavoring though all people that have found it became addicted to it we know by studying the impact it has on teeth in every society it has touched.

A lot of fiber/flavor comes with eating roots, wild grains, and amaranth. Veggies like "lambs quarters," which are now weeds in many gardens were mainstay soup greens before Europeans got here. Have you ever cooked off the trail?

Please remember all pre-sedentary folks ate "whole grains" (as well as carbs and fibers from every source from grubs to roots as I said) all the time. The mountain men traded furs for beans, flour and rice. The neolithic foragers also collected wild rains for thousands of years across savanna, prairies and meadows they migrated. The moving hearth was the base camp of roving migratory seasonal hunters, study the Lakota not the Cherokee to better understand the difference.

That is a what a nomadic trail is all about, and getting to the right pasture, at the right times, was about the hunt for the animals that we were competing with for the grain. How do you think we figured out to eat the stuff, let alone cultivate it?

BTW, I am not against many aspects of the neolithic diet but we still do most hunting at the grocery store and rely on others to gather for us, tennis doesn't constitute survival stress to go with dividing the kill. I think marketing is too suspect and age makes a big difference, as well as our balance of even good nutrition to exercise.

I don't consume pop as a general rule I balance my meats and I prepare pasta occasionally as well as eat whole grain bread only. I try never to eat processed foods and I do most of my own food prep. It is time consuming but definitely better. I limit fats, and try to remember to have salad and vegetables balance with meat as a meal but I see very great differences when I work out less.

The key is that if I work off 2000 calories I can intake that amount, but if I only work out 1500 and still take in 2000 I gain weight, if I stress the other way I lose but if the human body stresses too far it damages tissues. So finding a balance of diet and exercise is the key but far easier said than done.

#16 allnewsuperman

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Posted 02 February 2004 - 09:46 AM

Well, the most natural diet of all is... if it tastes good, eat it. The Paleos didn't eat potato roots for example, just potatoes, and they were good for them. They felt right in their stomach. They have found that people who consume the odd bar of chocolate will live on average a year longer than those who don't overall. Of course there are confounding factors, but I would think it would be more of a higher class thing to never ever eat chocolate. I'm not sure whether or not I think that if all foods were presented equally in front of us with no rewards, no strings attached that we wouldn't eat the right foods. Even if we ate something that felt bad, we would kind of go against eating it later. I don't have a bad diet, but I seem to consume a lot of milk for some reason.

#17 machineghost

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 02:05 AM

Well, the most natural diet of all is... if it tastes good, eat it. The Paleos didn't eat potato roots for example, just potatoes, and they were good for them. They felt right in their stomach.


"Instinctive Nutrition", as it was called, had been tried and it failed. We're genetically-adapted to relentlessy eat carbs to get fat to survive famines. Keep in mind, carbs back in Paleo times were low-insulinic. Potatoes as we know 'em today didn't exist, assuming Paleos even understood the ability to use fire and cook such.

They have found that people who consume the odd bar of chocolate will live on average a year longer than those who don't overall. Of course there are confounding factors, but I would think it would be more of a higher class thing to never ever eat chocolate.


That's just from the antioxidants in the chocolate. Don't confuse an increase in AVERAGE lifespan with an increase in MAXIUMUM life span. Nutrition alone, so far, has no effect on increasing MAXIMUM.

I don't have a bad diet, but I seem to consume a lot of milk for some reason.


Seems like a lot of wishful thinking to me. Milk is just loaded with addictive, high insulinic carbs (among many other negatives).

Frankly, I don't see why there's still confusion about which diet to eat to maximize longevity. Based on all the anti-aging research, EAT A LOW INSULINIC DIET! You'll find it coincides with the Paleo and CR diets nicely.

Machine Ghost

#18 DJS

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 06:39 AM

Frankly, I don't see why there's still confusion about which diet to eat to maximize longevity. Based on all the anti-aging research, EAT A LOW INSULINIC DIET!


Thank you Machineghost, I couldn't have created a better segue if I wanted to. [thumb] Now presenting...The Zone Diet.

The Zone Diet was developed by Barry Sears, a former researcher in biotechnology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

What is the Zone?

The Zone is not some mystical place. It is a real physiological state in which the hormones (insulin and eicosanoids) governed by the food you eat are maintained within zones that are not too high, nor too low. The benefits of controlling insulin are increased fat loss, decrease the likelihood of cardiovascular disease, and greater physical and mental performance. The benefits of controlling eicosanoids are decreased inflammation and increased blood flow, which will help improve virtually every chronic disease condition and improve physical performance.

The blood tests that define the Zone are ultimately the same tests that can be used to define wellness. This is what Dr Sears calls evidence-based wellness which is the foundation for 21st century health care.

The Zone Dietary Program

The Zone dietary program is based upon consistent insulin control coupled with the supplementation of high-dose fish oil in order to modulate the synthesis of arachidonic acid.

Insulin control is achieved by balancing protein and carbohydrate at each meal (1-4). The insulin-control component of the Zone dietary program can be described as a moderate-carbohydrate, moderate-protein, and moderate-fat dietary program. The maximum amount of low-fat protein at any one meal should be no bigger than the size and thickness of the palm of the hand (this is approximately 3 oz. for females and 4 oz. for males). The majority of carbohydrates should come from vegetables and fruits, with starches (such bread, potatoes, rice, and pasta) used sparingly as condiments. Finally, most of the fat should consist of heart healthy monounsaturated fat. Unlike high-protein diets (that induce ketosis) or high-carbohydrate diets (that elevate insulin levels), the insulin control component of the OmegaZone dietary program is based on balance and moderation at each meal.

The other component of the Zone dietary program is supplementation with high-dose fish oil. This is only possible with the advent of pharmaceutical-grade fish oil that for the first time allows the use of high-doses without severe gastric disturbances.

The goal of the Zone diet is to keep a hormonal balance between fat-storing insulin and the hormone glucagon sand. Glucagon is responsible fore releasing stored glucose from the liver when it is needed. Maintaining a balance between the two hormones is achieved by limiting the amount of certain food groups. In particular, it can be defined as keeping the hormone insulin in a tight zone: not too high, not too low. The Zone Diet is a life-long hormonal control strategy.

The Zone's eating plan is a combination of a small amount of low-fat protein, fats, and carbohydrates in the form of fiber-rich vegetables and fruits. Proteins should be eaten with every meal and at every snack. Carbohydrates should be twice the size of the protein portion. These include vegetables, beans, and whole-grains. "Unfavorable carbohydrates" such as brown rice, pasta, bananas, bagels, etc. should be eaten in smaller portions.

By eating too many fat-free carbohydrates or too many calories at any one meal. Americans do both.

It is impossible for dietary fat alone to make you fat

It is excessive levels of the hormone insulin that makes you fat and keeps you fat.

How do you increase insulin levels?

People tend to forget that the best way to fatten cattle is to raise their insulin levels by feeding them excessive amounts of low-fat grain. The best way to fatten humans is to raise their insulin levels by feeding them excessive amounts of low-fat grain, but now in the form of pasta and bagels.


link

#19 DJS

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 06:46 AM

Critique of the Zone Diet

The basis for the Zone diet, by Barry Sears, Ph.D. (a biochemist, neither a physician nor a dietitian), is that if a person eats the correct ratio of carbohydrate to protein to fat (40/30/30), s/he will improve his or her health, weight, and athletic performance, because certain hormones will be balanced and therefore in the preferred "zone." The hormones he focuses on are insulin (necessary for glucose to enter our cells) and eicosanoids (hormone-like substances that regulate inflammation. Some eicosanoids are by-products of metabolism.).

Sears alleges that the American public is overweight due to a high intake of carbohydrates, and that this style of eating causes an over-production of insulin. In addition to causing weight gain, excess insulin leads to an imbalance in eicosanoids that he links to other aspects of ill health, such as heart disease, cancer, and arthritis, among others. The solution, Dr. Sears offers, is to eat a lower carb, higher protein, and moderate fat diet to balance these hormones within the preferred "zone."

The positive part about the Zone diet is that it encourages its followers to eat often throughout the day — at least every five hours. It also eliminates foods many people overeat, such as sweets, chips, certain starches, and, of course, junk food. It concentrates on including a number of healthful foods — low glycemic fruits and grains, vegetables, lean proteins, and monounsaturated and omega-3 fats. (Low glycemic foods, such as cherries, grapefruit, nuts, and lentils, don't cause blood glucose levels to increase quickly, and therefore require lower levels of insulin than higher glycemic foods, which include white potatoes, corn flakes, and dates.) The Zone diet works for its followers because it is actually a low calorie diet. For instance, the sample meal plans for an average woman totaled approximately 1200 - 1300 calories per day. Most women would lose weight at this level of caloric intake, regardless of the source(s) of these calories.

Dr. Sears, however, goes to great efforts to offer scientific explanations for the Zone diet that are not proven. His diet does not necessarily lead to more efficient fat burning, nor is there evidence that it lives up to his claims of reduced incidence of disease. Testimonials are not proof, nor are they a substitute for scientific research. The studies he does refer to regarding athletic performance don't meet the standards of high quality, respected research, because no control group was included in their study design. [FYI, a control group consists of a set of subjects alike in every way to the test group, except that they don't follow the experiment — in this case, the diet. Scientists then compare the results of the experimental group (the dieters) to the people who are the "control" (subjects not on the diet), and statistically calculate whether the experiment (the diet) had a significant effect, no effect, or the effect happened by chance. This is the gold standard of scientific research.]

So many diet books are on the market, and many simplify the obesity problem. The truth is, people are overweight for numerous reasons. Although Dr. Sears blames insulin resistance, clear evidence proving this cause for all overweight people does not exist. No two people have the same eating patterns, hormonal profiles, and genetics. The Zone Diet will help people lose weight, not necessarily because of any magic formula, but simply because it is low in calories. In fact, many of the individual meals and snacks do not adhere to his 40/30/30 formula, according to a nutrition analysis of his sample recipes and meals. One area he fails to address in the Zone diet is the aesthetics of eating. All of the pleasure from eating is eliminated when food is regarded as a drug. Dr. Sears also ignores emotional eating, a major reason for weight issues.

It's important to understand that scientific research is evolving in the field of weight regulation. We are learning more about how hormones, other chemicals in the body, and factors influencing appetite affect this area of study. Weight control is much more complex than simply following a prescribed eating plan or a meticulous balance of nutrients. The satisfaction a person derives from his or her food is key in forming a healthful eating plan. For some, slightly higher carbohydrate intake is more satisfying; for others, slightly higher protein works better — the important part is eating a variety of foods, keeping active with regular exercise, and making these changes permanent. Eating plans work as they become part of one's life. -- www.goaskalice.columbia.edu



#20 machineghost

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 08:44 AM

Critique of the Zone Diet


There's a few things I don't like about Sear's theory:

1. The guy himself is overweight.

2. If his theory had any scientific validity, the diet would stabilize your insulin at a relatively high levels due to the glucagon release preventing an insulin drop (bad idea). However, scientific research shows glucagon and insulin play a role in bringing serum glucose back into homeostasis (about 20grams is the normal amount in the blood), insulin release occuring AFTER digestion and glucagon release occuring BETWEEN meals.

3. There's food low in the glycemic index that is high in the insulin index.

4. The usual anti-saturated, pro-monounsatured ballyhoo.

5. For burning fat, 50% protein, 25% carbs and 25% fat is superior than the "zone" ratio.

Once the insulin index is further expanded, it will be interesting to see if Sears revises his theory, or if his books were all just hype cashing in.

Machine Ghost

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#21 Cyto

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 07:24 AM

Oc: High Protein/Low Carb diets are dangerous for your brain.


Speaking of which, if anyone is interested, there is a spit new Nature Reviews Neuroscience paper out on the importance of glycans.

The summary gives you a good idea, if you want the full thing just PM me.

GLYCANS AND NEURAL CELL INTERACTIONS




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