18 replies to this topic

[smithx]

I find that I wake up after about 5 hours of sleep, and although I am often able to go back to sleep for another 2 hours, this isn't always the case.

Here are the supplements I am now taking which haven't seemed to make a big difference:

- quercetin - 1g
- ZMA magnesium asparate - 450mg
- time-release melatonin - 2mg
- tryptophan - 1g

I am taking these about 1 hour before bedtime, and have not noticed any improvements.

So what other supplements would be useful or at least worth a try for increasing sleep duration without disturbing my sleep or reducing sleep quality?

Please post links to studies or other information supporting the use of any particular supplement.

Thanks!

Edited by smithx, 25 May 2009 - 09:26 PM.

[VespeneGas]

I find that I wake up after about 5 hours of sleep, and although I am often able to go back to sleep for another 2 hours, this isn't always the case.

Here are the supplements I am now taking which haven't seemed to make a big difference:

- quercetin - 1g
- ZMA magnesium asparate - 450mg
- time-release melatonin - 2mg
- tryptophan - 1g

I am taking these about 1 hour before bedtime, and have not noticed any improvements.

So what other supplements would be useful or at least worth a try for increasing sleep duration without disturbing my sleep or reducing sleep quality?

Please post links to studies or other information supporting the use of any particular supplement.

Thanks!

Discontinue pre-bedtime quercetin immediately, it is an adenosine antagonist (like caffeine) and a COMT inhibitor, which slows the breakdown of excitatory neurotransmittors. Where did you get the idea to take this for sleep?

I take trazodone to sleep longer/better, it's pretty reliable but can cause some brain fog during the day.

edit: you asked for studies.


Trazodone for antidepressant-associated insomnia.
Nierenberg AA, Adler LA, Peselow E, Zornberg G, Rosenthal M. Psychiatry Service, New York Department of Veterans Affairs Medical Center.

OBJECTIVE: The authors investigated trazodone as a hypnotic for depressed patients who had persistent, exacerbated, or new insomnia while taking either fluoxetine or bupropion. METHOD: Seventeen depressed patients who had insomnia while taking fluoxetine or bupropion were given either trazodone or placebo in a double-blind crossover trial. Sleep was assessed by self-report with the Pittsburgh Sleep Quality Index and the sleep items of the Yale-New Haven Hospital Depressive Symptom Inventory. RESULTS: Improvement with trazodone, but not with placebo, was shown by the total Pittsburgh index scores and Yale-New Haven inventory total sleep scores and by the Pittsburgh index measures of sleep duration and Yale-New Haven inventory measures of early morning awakening, and there was a trend toward improvement in the Yale-New Haven inventory item regarding middle of the night awakenings. Subjective sleep quality and sleep latency also showed a trend toward improvement, but the Pittsburgh index measures of sleep efficiency and disturbances and the Yale-New Haven inventory item regarding difficulty falling asleep were unaffected by trazodone. One patient dropped out because of excessive daytime sedation with trazodone, and another dropped out because of nonresponse to placebo. Of the completers, 67% experienced overall improvement in sleep with trazodone according to a priori criteria, whereas only 13% experienced improvement with placebo. CONCLUSIONS: Trazodone is an effective hypnotic for patients with antidepressant-associated insomnia.

PMID: 8010365 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE



Sleep laboratory evaluation of the effects and efficacy of trazodone in depressed insomniac patients.
Scharf MB, Sachais BA. Center for Research in Sleep Disorders, Cincinnati, Ohio 45246.

Trazodone (150 mg to 400 mg) was administered to six depressed patients with significant sleep disturbances in an 8-week single-blind study design. Patients were evaluated psychologically by means of the Hamilton Rating Scales for Anxiety and Depression. Polysomnographic monitoring in the sleep laboratory was conducted at each of the time points corresponding to the psychiatric evaluations. Five of the six subjects completed treatment. Patients showed a significant improvement in symptoms of depression and in their polysomnographic-determined sleep architecture. There was a 44% improvement in persistent sleep latency, decreasing from a mean +/- SD of 51.0 +/- 59.3 minutes at baseline to 28.5 +/- 24.2 minutes after 5 weeks of active treatment. Total sleep time improved 14% from 387.1 +/- 59.2 minutes at baseline to 441.3 +/- 23.7 minutes after 5 weeks. Stage IV sleep more than doubled with an increase of 153% from 1.9 +/- 3.0% at baseline to a more normal 4.8 +/- 5.5%. There was no change in percentage of rapid eye movement (REM); however, REM latency increased 28% from a mean of 74.6 +/- 35.9 minutes at baseline to a mean of 95.6 +/- 28.8 minutes. Sleep efficiency improved from 80.6 +/- 12.3%, considered clinically significant insomnia, to 91.9 +/- 4.9%, which is well within normal sleep patterns.

PMID: 2211559 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE



The effects of trazodone on sleep in patients treated with stimulant antidepressants.
Kaynak H, Kaynak D, Gözükirmizi E, Guilleminault C. Department of Neurology, Sleep Disorders Unit, Cerrahpasa Medical School, University of Istanbul, Cerrahpasa, 34303 Istanbul, Turkey. kaynak@attglobal.net

BACKGROUND AND PURPOSE: To evaluate the effects of trazodone on subjective and objective measures of sleep in depressed insomnia patients treated with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). SSRIs can exacerbate or cause new insomnia while alleviating other symptoms of depression. Trazodone has been reported to be an effective hypnotic for patients with antidepressant-associated insomnia. PATIENTS AND METHODS: Twelve female patients were given either 100 mg trazodone or placebo for 7 days in a double-blind crossover design with a 7-day washout period. Polysomnographic recordings were repeated on the 3rd, 9th and 17th, 23rd nights after treatment with trazodone or placebo. Sleep was assessed by Pittsburgh sleep quality index (PSQI) at the beginning and end of the study. Psychological evaluation was done by Hamilton depression rating scale (HDRS). RESULTS: Trazodone significantly increased total sleep time, percentage of stages 3+4, sleep efficiency index, sleep continuity index and decreased percentage of stage 1, number of awakenings, stage shifts compared to the baseline. This improvement was also obtained after 7 days of treatment. The PSQI score was reduced to 5+/-1.6 at the end of the study. HDRS was reduced to 11.5+/-4.5 with trazodone and to 12.2+/-3 with placebo. CONCLUSION: Trazodone is effective in the treatment of antidepressant-associated insomnia.

PMID: 14725822 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE


see also:

http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1427983
http://www.erj.ersjo...tract/31/6/1308

etc etc etc

Edited by VespeneGas, 25 May 2009 - 09:37 PM.

[bgwithadd]

melatonin definitely makes ME sleep much longer, at any rate.

[smithx]

Discontinue pre-bedtime quercetin immediately, it is an adenosine antagonist (like caffeine) and a COMT inhibitor, which slows the breakdown of excitatory neurotransmittors. Where did you get the idea to take this for sleep?

Thanks, I looked it up and it appears you are correct. I found one paper claiming that it blocks 5-HTP receptors.

I can't find the original paper where they stated that sleep duration increased in a dose-dependent manner with increasing quercetin. But based on the other information this does seem unlikely.

Any other suggestions?

[edward]

I have tried everything and the sleep stack I have settled on (you don't need to rotate, skip days or anything due to tolerance is):
25 mg trazodone (obviously you will need a prescription, btw this is cheap and will cost you $2 per month at walmart if you split the standard 50 mg tabs)
700 mg - 1 g TMG (mainly for the glycine but with the added bonus of the methyl groups)
300 mg Bacopa
300 mg Ashwagandha
300-500 mg Jujube
200 - 400 mg Magnesium from Magnesium Glycinate
2 mg timed release melatonin
1 mg sublingual melatonin

(one could also throw in tryptophan or 5htp which I have but I don't think it makes much of a difference)

edit: Just throwing my 2 cents worth in. Trazodone, Glycine, Magnesium and Melatonin are all backed by studies that show either improved sleep architecture and/or onset latency. I believe there are also some studies showing Bacopa, Ashwaganda and Jujube reduces sleep onset latency. I'm to lazy to post all these studies but search Pubmed http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ or http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/

Edited by edward, 26 May 2009 - 01:41 PM.

[Pablo M]

I am always amazed that ZMA is recommended pre-bedtime, as that form of magnesium (aspartate) is not what you want to be taking. Try a magnesium citrate or glycinate. Other ideas:

o Increase tryptophan to 3-7 grams
o Try valerian, lemon balm, or passionflower
o Drink chamomile or mint tea
o Take a hot bath w/ epsom salts
o Sauna a few hours before bed
o Exercise vigorously early in the day

[tlm884]

I have tried everything and the sleep stack I have settled on (you don't need to rotate, skip days or anything due to tolerance is):
25 mg trazodone (obviously you will need a prescription, btw this is cheap and will cost you $2 per month at walmart if you split the standard 50 mg tabs)
700 mg - 1 g TMG (mainly for the glycine but with the added bonus of the methyl groups)
300 mg Bacopa
300 mg Ashwagandha
300-500 mg Jujube
200 - 400 mg Magnesium from Magnesium Glycinate
2 mg timed release melatonin
1 mg sublingual melatonin

(one could also throw in tryptophan or 5htp which I have but I don't think it makes much of a difference)

edit: Just throwing my 2 cents worth in. Trazodone, Glycine, Magnesium and Melatonin are all backed by studies that show either improved sleep architecture and/or onset latency. I believe there are also some studies showing Bacopa, Ashwaganda and Jujube reduces sleep onset latency. I'm to lazy to post all these studies but search Pubmed http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ or http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/

I can tell you that Bacopa affects sleep big time. It makes me sleep 12 or 13 hours but I read this may because of seretonin deficiency.

[tunt01]

I am always amazed that ZMA is recommended pre-bedtime, as that form of magnesium (aspartate) is not what you want to be taking. Try a magnesium citrate or glycinate. Other ideas:

o Increase tryptophan to 3-7 grams
o Try valerian, lemon balm, or passionflower
o Drink chamomile or mint tea
o Take a hot bath w/ epsom salts
o Sauna a few hours before bed
o Exercise vigorously early in the day

do you have an opinion on magnesium malate or orotate?

[nowayout]

I am always amazed that ZMA is recommended pre-bedtime, as that form of magnesium (aspartate) is not what you want to be taking. Try a magnesium citrate or glycinate. Other ideas:

o Increase tryptophan to 3-7 grams
o Try valerian, lemon balm, or passionflower
o Drink chamomile or mint tea
o Take a hot bath w/ epsom salts
o Sauna a few hours before bed
o Exercise vigorously early in the day

do you have an opinion on magnesium malate or orotate?

Magnesium orotate does nothing for my insomnia.

[smithx]

I am always amazed that ZMA is recommended pre-bedtime, as that form of magnesium (aspartate) is not what you want to be taking. Try a magnesium citrate or glycinate.

Thanks for the comment.

What are you basing this on? Any studies or other information to back up what forms of magnesium are most useful?

[Pablo M]

I am always amazed that ZMA is recommended pre-bedtime, as that form of magnesium (aspartate) is not what you want to be taking. Try a magnesium citrate or glycinate.

Thanks for the comment.

What are you basing this on? Any studies or other information to back up what forms of magnesium are most useful?

It's based on the fact that aspartic acid is excitatory, while glycine is inhibitory. I can't say that magnesium especially helps me with insomnia in any form. And prophets, I haven't researched orotate but malate is a good form.

Seriously, tryptophan in high doses is awesome. Based on the research pertaining to depression, which I am using it to treat, up to 12 grams daily may be utilized. I used to take prescription sleeping pills semi-regularly and now I don't have to.

[ajnast4r]

for me:

no liquids 1 hour before bed other than to wash down pills

stay asleep, improved sleep: 400mg magnesium glycinate, 500mg tryptophan, 20mg p5p

to get to sleep: 5g glycine

[Redhill]

Are there no supplements on the market that contain these ingredients and are already packaged?

I thought there were a bunch?

Or are there no outsanding ones out there?

[tlm884]

SleepMD contains White Willow, Valerian, Melatonin, and maybe something else and it works amazingly well. Its a two layered tablet.

[imarobot]

Lemon balm or a lemon balm/valerian combo might be worth trying.

Tolerability and efficacy of valerian/lemon balm in healthy volunteers (a double-blind, placebo-controlled, multicentre study)

References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.

A. Cernya and K. Schmidb, *

a Inselspital, University Hospital, Bern, Switzerland

b PharmaPart AG, Weberstrasse 10, Postfach 8669, Zürich 8036, Switzerland


Received 25 August 1998; accepted 2 December 1998. Available online 2 September 1999.

Abstract
This clinical study was conducted to evaluate the tolerability and efficacy of a new galenic formulation of a herbal sleeping aid, a valerian/lemon balm combination, to treat minor sleep disorders. The study was performed according to a randomised, placebo-controlled, double-blind, parallel group, multicentre design with healthy volunteers. Primary parameters were the assessment of the overall tolerability and the incidence of adverse events. Secondary parameters included laboratory tests, physical examination and assessments of well-being and sleep quality. The preparation proved to be well tolerated by most subjects (93% of the participants in the valerian/lemon balm group and 91% in the placebo group). There was no statistically significant difference concerning the frequency of adverse events between the two treatment groups (valerian/lemon balm 29%, placebo 28%) and no serious adverse events were reported. No significant changes were seen in regard to laboratory tests, physical examination and rating of well-being. In contrast, the valerian/lemon balm group revealed a significantly higher quality of sleep (33%) compared to the placebo group (9%), P-value=0.04. In conclusion, these results indicate that this valerian/lemon balm formulation is well tolerated.

[smithx]

SleepMD contains White Willow, Valerian, Melatonin, and maybe something else and it works amazingly well. Its a two layered tablet.

SleepMD gets some bad reviews around the net:
http://jeremysarber....iew-of-sleepmd/
http://www.amazon.co...nDateDescending

Which makes me cautious about trying it. Here are the ingredients:

White willow extract (as Salix alba) (bark) Standardized for 25% salicin
Valerian extract (as Valeriana officinalis) (root) (deodorized grade)
Lemon balm extract (as Melissa officinalis) (leaf)
Hops extract (as Humulus lupulus) (strobile)
Lavender powder (as Lavandula officinalis) (flower & leaf)
Melatonin (featuring Nano-Diffuse™ technology)
Passionflower extract (as Passiflora incarnata) (aerial parts) Standardized for 3.5% flavanoids
Coenzyme Q10
Scutellaria lateriflora powder (aerial parts)

They don't specify the quantities of any of the ingredients, and some of them like CoQ10 don't seem to make sense as sleep aids. Also, I remember reading a study somewhere that indicated lavender inhibits DNA repair, but I can't seem to find it now.

Edited by smithx, 27 May 2009 - 10:22 PM.

[tlm884]

SleepMD contains White Willow, Valerian, Melatonin, and maybe something else and it works amazingly well. Its a two layered tablet.

SleepMD gets some bad reviews around the net:
http://jeremysarber....iew-of-sleepmd/
http://www.amazon.co...nDateDescending

Which makes me cautious about trying it. Here are the ingredients:

White willow extract (as Salix alba) (bark) Standardized for 25% salicin
Valerian extract (as Valeriana officinalis) (root) (deodorized grade)
Lemon balm extract (as Melissa officinalis) (leaf)
Hops extract (as Humulus lupulus) (strobile)
Lavender powder (as Lavandula officinalis) (flower & leaf)
Melatonin (featuring Nano-Diffuse™ technology)
Passionflower extract (as Passiflora incarnata) (aerial parts) Standardized for 3.5% flavanoids
Coenzyme Q10
Scutellaria lateriflora powder (aerial parts)

They don't specify the quantities of any of the ingredients, and some of them like CoQ10 don't seem to make sense as sleep aids. Also, I remember reading a study somewhere that indicated lavender inhibits DNA repair, but I can't seem to find it now.

SleepMD is for the short term and not meant to be used on a regular basis and for the short term it helps amazingly. My shrink told me that if Im not sleeping I shouild catch up every 3rd night or so so I either take SleepMD nozinan serequel risperidone or fluvoxamine.

[adamh]

Last night I tried glutamine and glycine, about a spoonful of each. I didn't weigh it but it might have been a gram and a half of each. I've tried glycine by itself and it seemed to do little. The two definitely seemed to make it easier to get to sleep. Could have been placebo but I'm going to keep trying it. Neither one tastes that bad.

[Jacovis]

Bovine alpha s1-casein tryptic hydrolysate (also sold as Lactium®) seems to be beneficial for sleep - it looks to be especially useful when stress is impairing sleep: see my posts in http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=21783