45 replies to this topic

[rhodeder]

I know that you can have a calorie restricted diet but along with that what other things could you do? I was thinking about purchasing some of the most strongest antioxidants(DMSO and Microhydrin) but im not sure how much i should take to have optimal anti-aging effects. Along with these what could a person do to slow the aging processes down tremendously?

[VictorBjoerk]

you can't "slow the aging processes down tremendously" by taking antioxidants! In fact you could hurt yourself! You should browse around on threads here to make up your optimal lifestyle...

[VidX]

It's not that simple. I've been doing research for a few years and I'm just begining to get a grasp of what can be done regarding lifestyle, supplements, food, etc...

[tunt01]

Along with these what could a person do to slow the aging processes down tremendously?

search for the term: hormesis

[rhodeder]

Never heard of Hormesis before. I looked up the applications of Hormesis on anti-aging research and they list several methods a person can use to slow down aging. But they dont list the results it had in testing. Calorie Restriction seems like the most powerful anti-aging method i can find right now. It does have bad effects though like it can stop your sex drive while your on it and cause you to look like someone who is starving.

[lunarsolarpower]

Make sure to eat 1-2 oz. of tree nuts at least 5x per week. Also take lessons on living well from the world's "Blue Zones". Or, you could even live in one if you choose.

Also, be careful with the vitamin supplements.

Edited by lunarsolarpower, 30 May 2009 - 06:45 PM.

[tunt01]

Never heard of Hormesis before. I looked up the applications of Hormesis on anti-aging research and they list several methods a person can use to slow down aging. But they dont list the results it had in testing. Calorie Restriction seems like the most powerful anti-aging method i can find right now. It does have bad effects though like it can stop your sex drive while your on it and cause you to look like someone who is starving.

putting your body on defense/repair thru temporary periods of "pain", will clearly have negative effects on your sex drive. the body is biologically trying to survive and reproduce later.

other methods of hormesis:

acupuncture
hot and cold showers, sauna, steam rooms, etc.
food/supplements - spicy foods, polyphenols, etc.
exercise
low-dose radiation
oxygen deprivation (exercise in the mountains, sleep in low oxygen tents)
hyperbaric chambers

etc. etc.

stress the body for 30-60 minutes to build up endogenous levels of antioxidants.

search the forums for the term hormesis, it is discussed in other threads.

[kismet]

Calorie Restriction seems like the most powerful anti-aging method i can find right now.

The only intervention that has been repeatedly shown to robustly extend mammalian life span which additionally is applicable to humans. GH, methionine, AGE restriction and supplements are a distant second. The superiority of CR is almost depressing... 

can...cause you to look like someone who is starving.

No, I'm pretty sure it *will*. I think that - contrary to popular belief - CR without looking like someone "starving", i.e. a BMI in the vicinity of 17/18, is either a. mere obesity-avoidance or b. very, very mild and insignificant CR. I really think some people are underestimating what real CR entails. I'm pretty sure I'm right (even though I've been told I'm wrong [and a moron] a dozen times); if not I'd love to be proven wrong sooner than later by MR, the authorative voice on CR (or anyone with some hard facts).

Edited by kismet, 30 May 2009 - 07:51 PM.

[rhodeder]

I heard that gamma radiation was the preferred radiation used. Should i just request a full body xray lol. not sure where you can get shot with radiation. This information is great, thanks!

Edited by rhodeder, 30 May 2009 - 07:53 PM.

[kismet]

I heard that gamma radiation was the preferred radiation used. Should i just request a full body xray lol. not sure where you can get shot with radiation. This information is great, thanks!

We should note that there are different levels of evidence in favour of all those "hormetic" interventions. I wouldn't choose X-ray (or any rays), considering there's zero long term data showing any benefits whatsoever and the linear no-threshold model still makes sense and is supported by different amounts of rather strong evidence. Polyphenols, exercise, some forms of oxygen deprivation at least have some hard data in some species or even humans.
On the other hand (but not so seriously), getting a full-body CT might be good for cancer-screening and if it happens to increase life span, why not, bring on the pollonium! (maybe we should start smoking, contains enough radioactivity...)

Edited by kismet, 30 May 2009 - 08:18 PM.

[rhodeder]

I heard that gamma radiation was the preferred radiation used. Should i just request a full body xray lol. not sure where you can get shot with radiation. This information is great, thanks!

We should note that there are different levels of evidence in favour of all those "hormetic" interventions. I wouldn't choose X-ray (or any rays), considering there's zero long term data showing any benefits whatsoever and the linear no-threshold model still makes sense and is supported by different amounts of rather strong evidence. Polyphenols, exercise, some forms of oxygen deprivation at least have some hard data in some species or even humans.
On the other hand (but not so seriously), getting a full-body CT might be good for cancer-screening and if it happens to increase life span, why not, bring on the pollonium! (maybe we should start smoking, contains enough radioactivity...)

lol

GH, methionine, AGE restriction and supplements are a distant second.

Can you tell me a little more about this in detail?

[tunt01]

i dont know the #s off hand, but when i was reading up on hormesis, a CT Scan was more radiation than was recommended. it is a LOW DOSE that is helpful and is supposedly proven to help prevent cancers because the body builds up a tolerance.

if you search google/web for low-dose radiation, hormesis, i'm sure you'll find companies that provide the service. i did a little looking around at the time and saw hormesis-oriented health companies who were willing to shoot you with radiation for a fee.

[tunt01]

GH, methionine, AGE restriction and supplements are a distant second.

Can you tell me a little more about this in detail?

GH = growth hormone
methionine = amino acid found high concentration in some meats/dairy like eggs, also in items like brazil nuts. it is an essential amino acid, but overconsumption = pre-mature death.
AGE = advance glycation end products http://en.wikipedia....ion_end_product

search the forums for these terms

Edited by prophets, 30 May 2009 - 08:43 PM.

[kismet]

i dont know the #s off hand, but when i was reading up on hormesis, a CT Scan was more radiation than was recommended. it is a LOW DOSE that is helpful and is supposedly proven to help prevent cancers because the body builds up a tolerance.

Supposedly? Which critter did they test in or is there actual human data? So we're looking for a dose somewhere between the level of natural ionising radiation and a typical x-ray?
IAC this does not make much sense to me considering that it is not known to work with UVR. Sure, melanin protects your skin, but only after you've fucked it up. I don't know why other DNA-damage-repair & protection mechanisms would work any different. Why is there apparently an artificial sweet-spot higher than natural radiation levels but lower than typical X-ray treatments? Are there any more convincing studies than cited over at wikipedia? 

[tunt01]

Supposedly? Which critter did they test in or is there actual human data? So we're looking for a dose somewhere between the level of natural ionising radiation and a typical x-ray?
IAC this does not make much sense to me considering that it is not known to work with UVR. Sure, melanin protects your skin, but only after you've fucked it up. I don't know why other DNA-damage-repair & protection mechanisms would work any different. Why is there apparently an artificial sweet-spot higher than natural radiation levels but lower than typical X-ray treatments? Are there any more convincing studies than cited over at wikipedia? 

if you have such an acute desire to learn more about hormetic radiation treatment, i suggest you look into it. there are a ton of papers which review hormesis, from david lindsey to mark mattson. all of them discuss radiation even in a cursory magnitude. if you need help using pubmed.com, i'd be happy to show you.. drop me a private msg.

i didn't pursue it personally, but there seem to be a far number of believers and most books on hormesis (Rattan has one, you can look up in google books) discuss it.

good luck

Edited by prophets, 31 May 2009 - 02:36 AM.

[lunarsolarpower]

I heard that gamma radiation was the preferred radiation used. Should i just request a full body xray lol. not sure where you can get shot with radiation. This information is great, thanks!

If you seriously want to expose yourself to ionizing radiation it seems that direct sunlight would be the easiest and most well known source. In addition it provides a nice dose of vitamin D provided you aren't too far from the equator.

[kismet]

if you have such an acute desire to learn more about hormetic radiation treatment, i suggest you look into it.

I've read some discussion on the wiki and it seems there's considerable debate and it's a nicely documented in vivo phenomen, but it's still too early and unproven in humans that (I think, based on the apparent lack of [definite] evidence or human evidence in general) we should caution & warn people. I'm somewhat of a hardliner when it comes to novel and exotic approaches...

I'm not sure my choice of words was perfectly correct saying that it is not documented with regards to UVR and that the linear no threshold model is 'proven', but I believe there's still much more evidence in favour of a linear, no threshold model regarding UVR & skin than any hormetic effects.

Whole body irradiation using the right dose of gamma rays (or?) to elicit a benefical response would be more prudent, if we can call any such exotic treatment "prudent" to begin with. You can send me any interesting reviews & papers, even though I'm sure I won't have time for any in-depth analysis any time soon.

Ok, back to the question. If you don't want to do CR the next best thing would be a zone'ish, low AGE (almost-raw food), low-moderate (?) methionine diet with optimal nutrition (as determined by cron-o-meter) and perfect supplemention. Furthermore I believe going almost-vegetarian/vegan and supplementing the stuff such a diet is lacking would be a good idea. Alternatively, if you subscribe to the paleo thingy you could go paleo w/ or w/o keto, but that's still somewhat experimental (and you still need to supplement some things your diet would lack).

Edited by kismet, 31 May 2009 - 07:54 PM.

[Matt]

Like has already been said, CR is the only thing that is likely to extend your lifespan. I think more people on imminst should go for it, but around here there tends to be a lot of optimism that 'in the future' something will come along that will save them before they die :-) CR contrary to what most people say really isn't all that hard, not much harder than just sticking to a healthy diet I think. Although with my own BMI of around 16.5, I can get some negative comments sometimes. Although not everyone thinks I look like i'm about to drop dead from starvation.

As for sex drive and CR, it really changed much since I started CR. It's there, maybe not high like most males my age, but at 25 almost its definitely there alright and I have no doubt that it will stay good for longer

[rhodeder]

I been thinking what would happen if a person was to take testosterone boosters when they were on a calorie restriction diet?

[immortali457]

DMSO is a solvent that is used topically for injuries, bruises, etc. I've used it this way with great success. How were you planning on using it?

[rhodeder]

DMSO is a solvent that is used topically for injuries, bruises, etc. I've used it this way with great success. How were you planning on using it?

Should have looked a little more into it. Looks like DMSO would be a bad idea to take internally or externally unless for a medicine.

[tunt01]

Whole body irradiation using the right dose of gamma rays (or?) to elicit a benefical response would be more prudent, if we can call any such exotic treatment "prudent" to begin with. You can send me any interesting reviews & papers, even though I'm sure I won't have time for any in-depth analysis any time soon.

Ok, back to the question. If you don't want to do CR the next best thing would be a zone'ish, low AGE (almost-raw food), low-moderate (?) methionine diet with optimal nutrition (as determined by cron-o-meter) and perfect supplemention. Furthermore I believe going almost-vegetarian/vegan and supplementing the stuff such a diet is lacking would be a good idea. Alternatively, if you subscribe to the paleo thingy you could go paleo w/ or w/o keto, but that's still somewhat experimental (and you still need to supplement some things your diet would lack).

i'm not suggesting everyone run out and blast themselves w/ radiation. i'm merely throwing it out there as an example, because it is discussed in the vast majority of the general review papers on hormesis on pubmed. i may look into it at some point, i'll post a thread about it if I find anything material, but it's really not front in center at the moment.

i think your diet suggestions are good advice. CR/MR (methionine restriction) are probably easier/more sane.

I still think it's foolish to look at CR as the only real method for life extension. The scientific work and principles behind hormesis, in general, is pretty sound. And even Aubrey said himself that those who believe in it are "definitely not stupid."

incidentally, i'd go for acupuncture or some sort of hard-massage therapy before going down the radiation route.

Edited by prophets, 31 May 2009 - 10:43 PM.

[rhodeder]

Well all of them sound interesting I wish there was more research available on the outcomes of experiments where people had done them. I dont think a low dose of radiation could hurt you but its still scary that it might cause a mutation. Hot and cold showers, exercise, food supplements, hyperbolic chambers and acupuncture could all be things a person could do without really worrying of any side effects. Oxygen deprivation worry's me of a person getting acute mountain sickness though. I really cant say though anyone have any opinions on the rest?

[tunt01]

the best advice i can offer is to:

A. Read about the subject matter. Multiple published papers exist. David Lindsey wrote an overview of hormesis in 2005. Mark Mattson's papers recently have been good on the subject. there are other threads

B. Pick something and research it carefully. Make a careful decision.

Example: hot/cold showers

Rattan's book on hormesis shows that studies on human skin cells are optimally sensitized to heated water up to 105.8 degrees farenheit (approx. 41 degrees celsius). Anything above that is damaging to the body.

I don't recall the cold shower data off hand, but there are documented studies on worms/other animals which are put into cold water for a brief period of time and taken out. Anecdotally, the "shock" value of cold water is also used by prisoners in maximum security facilities. They try to train their body to deal with a stabbing from a shank by a rival gang by blasting themselves with cold water. When they get stuck w/ a shank, they are better prepared to react to the blow.



if you are going to do CR/MR, i would look at the issue carefully and make good decisions, for yourself. do not rely on what is posted in this forum/thread by me or anyone else as the best guidance/answer for your personal health decisions. take responsibility for it. no one here knows what past illnesses you've had, or what your current pathology exhibits, etc.


brief presentation by Mattson:

http://www.health.uf.../05_mattson.pdf

paper overview by Mattson:

http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=2248601

Edited by prophets, 01 June 2009 - 12:17 AM.

[Ghostrider]

Like has already been said, CR is the only thing that is likely to extend your lifespan. I think more people on imminst should go for it, but around here there tends to be a lot of optimism that 'in the future' something will come along that will save them before they die :-) CR contrary to what most people say really isn't all that hard, not much harder than just sticking to a healthy diet I think. Although with my own BMI of around 16.5, I can get some negative comments sometimes. Although not everyone thinks I look like i'm about to drop dead from starvation.

As for sex drive and CR, it really changed much since I started CR. It's there, maybe not high like most males my age, but at 25 almost its definitely there alright and I have no doubt that it will stay good for longer

I think the questioning is more along the lines of whether CR would be worth it -- how much extra life for humans? It takes sacrifice, but its probably worth it. I think most people think that they will either reach escape velocity with time to spare or miss it completely. It won't come down to the 2 - 3 years that CR might give in extra life (depending on when one starts). I am referring to Aubrey's estimation on the benefits of CR (http://www.fightagin...-de-grey-11.php). No one really knows how it works in humans.

[Matt]

No one knows whether it will work or not, so throwing around the number 2-3 years is kind of useless. We can keep going over and over about whether CR really slows down human aging but we're not going to solve anything. The closest thing we have now is the primate studies and theres some evidence that it's workin @ Wisconsin primate centre. Did you see the rhesus monkey presenation? http://matts-cr.blog...resenation.html

Have you yet gotten around to reading Michaels paper responding to Aubreys paper on CR? I can send you the paper if you like.

http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=2464717

[kismet]

I been thinking what would happen if a person was to take testosterone boosters when they were on a calorie restriction diet?

Nothing as there are no working testosteorne boosters out there. Anything that "boosts" testosterone in any meaningful way is a genuinely dangerous drug messing with your endocrine system. Sure, genuinely dangerous drugs can provide benefits in the right hands..  but it's way too risky. Personally I've also wondered whether CR and moderate doses (>=HRT) of testosterone might counter-balance bodyweight loss without compromising CR, but I think it would only slow down the process and additionally counter-act some of the benefits.

Have you yet gotten around to reading Michaels paper responding to Aubreys paper on CR? I can send you the paper if you like.

http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=2464717

I recommend that people read Aubrey's paper first. I'm not sure why, but this was one of the most difficult papers I've ever read. I don't think it's any good to read it if you don't know the studies they discuss. However, I still got the impression that MR destroyed Aubrey's point. 

Like has already been said, CR is the only thing that is likely to extend your lifespan. I think more people on imminst should go for it, but around here there tends to be a lot of optimism that 'in the future' something will come along that will save them before they die :-)

No, the singularity will really, really save us. Just lay back and enjoy the show! We should really, really believe that Kurzweil is right, only 40 years to go! Yeah that's hilarious.

Edited by kismet, 06 June 2009 - 11:02 AM.

[Taelr]

I doubt that your choice of food will have any significant impact on your specific aging rate. I believe your DNA has already set the gross factor, probably 95%+, and there is little you can about that. The best you can do is avoid anything obviously poisonous and avoid any extremes. I'm basing my reasoning though on my parents and a recent death.

Father died at 92 and ultimately from damage incurred during WW2. He smoked a lot in early life, was overweight for the last half of his life, had hypertension, worried and was stressed about anything and everything. I suspect he would have lived a lot longer had it not been for the metal fragment imbedded in his brain, and the major road accident at age 12 where he suffered some other brain damage. His diet was nothing special, meat and potatoes, etc.

Mother is still alive at 93 and shows no signs of slowing. Her mind is still very sharp with excellent memory recall, and she still lives alone and supports herself. Outlook looks good although I'm not going to tempt fate here by stating my expectations. Again no special diet just regular traditional foods.

Recently the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi died at age 90. He was the modern exponent of TM (Transcendental Meditation) that he practiced, and its advanced techniques, all his life. Claims have been made that such practices will aid longevity. Note that for most of his life he lived in significant luxury with perfect pure vegetarian foods and drink and with no bodily abuses from drugs etc., and he practiced various Yoga style exercises. With all of that in his favor he still died at a relatively young age of 90.

I suspect my longevity will be similar to my parents and fully expect based on that to reach 100+ without any special attention to foods.

The bottom line - if you've got bad genes - tough luck. That's what we must fix, and tinkering with foods will only result in minor effects.

[immortali457]

I doubt that your choice of food will have any significant impact on your specific aging rate. I believe your DNA has already set the gross factor, probably 95%+, and there is little you can about that. The best you can do is avoid anything obviously poisonous and avoid any extremes. I'm basing my reasoning though on my parents and a recent death.

Father died at 92 and ultimately from damage incurred during WW2. He smoked a lot in early life, was overweight for the last half of his life, had hypertension, worried and was stressed about anything and everything. I suspect he would have lived a lot longer had it not been for the metal fragment imbedded in his brain, and the major road accident at age 12 where he suffered some other brain damage. His diet was nothing special, meat and potatoes, etc.

Mother is still alive at 93 and shows no signs of slowing. Her mind is still very sharp with excellent memory recall, and she still lives alone and supports herself. Outlook looks good although I'm not going to tempt fate here by stating my expectations. Again no special diet just regular traditional foods.

Recently the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi died at age 90. He was the modern exponent of TM (Transcendental Meditation) that he practiced, and its advanced techniques, all his life. Claims have been made that such practices will aid longevity. Note that for most of his life he lived in significant luxury with perfect pure vegetarian foods and drink and with no bodily abuses from drugs etc., and he practiced various Yoga style exercises. With all of that in his favor he still died at a relatively young age of 90.

I suspect my longevity will be similar to my parents and fully expect based on that to reach 100+ without any special attention to foods.

The bottom line - if you've got bad genes - tough luck. That's what we must fix, and tinkering with foods will only result in minor effects.

Makes no sense. Of course your choice of food/supplements plays a key role in aging and disease. Let's see.....so both my parents had heart disease in their 60's.....I guess I will too.....nothing I can do about it......retarded.

[Taelr]

i....457,

Makes no sense.

Then read it again.

Of course your choice of food/supplements plays a key role in aging and disease.

I wasn't disagreeing that it plays a role, simply not a key or major role. My post was demonstrating that.

Let's see.....so both my parents had heart disease in their 60's.....I guess I will too.....nothing I can do about it......retarded.

You seem to be missing the point somewhat. If your inherited genes pre-dispose you to early occurence of heart disease then the probability of you avoiding that and surviving is lower than others who do not have that disposition.

My observation is that the weight of the DNA factor in determining chances for longevity far outweighs any external factors we introduce such as dramatic diet changes or supplements.