43 replies to this topic

[Cyberbrain]

SURROGATES trailer in HD

[Grimm]

SURROGATES trailer in HD

It looks like an interesting movie, but is an absolutely repulsive idea in reality.

[Ben]

I must be getting old, the movie, from what the trailer showed, seems as if it could have been written by a child. It look very stupid and immature.

What would have been interesting is if they would have focused on brain transplants into robots. That would've been cool but probably wouldn't have had such a mass appeal as this will.

Also, Bruce Willis in a Boris Johnson wig is a hard sight to bear.

[Mind]

Probably seems like it is written by a child because you are familiar with the topic. For the mass viewing public, it might have more appeal. Nice to see the meme getting out there more. Art/media changes attitudes, although in this movie it looks like the "natural is better/superior" meme wins out in the end (just the feel I get from the trailer).

[Ben]

although in this movie it looks like the "natural is better/superior" meme wins out in the end (just the feel I get from the trailer).

Same feeling I got as well.

[lunarsolarpower]

Probably seems like it is written by a child because you are familiar with the topic. For the mass viewing public, it might have more appeal. Nice to see the meme getting out there more. Art/media changes attitudes, although in this movie it looks like the "natural is better/superior" meme wins out in the end (just the feel I get from the trailer).

Obviously I'm just reflecting my own bias but I could see it being more of a cautionary message that just because we can put ourselves into a new substrate that can withstand forces that would kill our biological bodies doesn't mean we have attained even practical immortality. Biology has survived a really long time and I think we would be foolish to completely abandon it for a single alternate form of being. I currently feel more secure having my "self" stored in a lump of neurons than I would having it on a spinning platter or two though having both would be even better. Ideally our solutions will involve redundancy and alternate methods of avoiding lethal events. This looks like it could be a fun movie to go see.

[Shannon Vyff]

I saw that trailer in the theatre recently and thought, cool but it seems to be cautionary and "anti-augmentation" inherently. I still love that a lot of sci-fi is coming out this year

[forever freedom]

Bruce Willis never tires of getting into the "diehard" style does he.

Looks like a nice movie, but as people said above it probably has the whole "natural is better than artificial" meme.

[Grimm]

Bruce Willis never tires of getting into the "diehard" style does he.

Looks like a nice movie, but as people said above it probably has the whole "natural is better than artificial" meme.

Is artificial better than natural?

[Kutta]

Bruce Willis never tires of getting into the "diehard" style does he.

Looks like a nice movie, but as people said above it probably has the whole "natural is better than artificial" meme.

Is artificial better than natural?

This is not the main point, the main point is that natural is absolutely not necessarily better than artificial, and yet many people believe it so. Call it biochauvinism. One could argue whether the common usage of "natural" is hogwash or not as we humans are fully natural and so every product of our technology, but it's another topic.

[JLL]

Bruce Willis never tires of getting into the "diehard" style does he.

Looks like a nice movie, but as people said above it probably has the whole "natural is better than artificial" meme.

Is artificial better than natural?

I would say yes.

[NearFuture3000]

Thanks!

Edited by NearFuture3000, 08 June 2009 - 05:15 PM.

[NearFuture3000]

I'm also waiting for "The Singularity" movie, does anyone knows already when it should be out ?

I hope that it will be as good as the book

Edited by NearFuture3000, 08 June 2009 - 06:11 PM.

[Taelr]

lunar,

Biology has survived a really long time and I think we would be foolish to completely abandon it for a single alternate form of being. I currently feel more secure having my "self" stored in a lump of neurons than I would having it on a spinning platter or two though having both would be even better. Ideally our solutions will involve redundancy and alternate methods of avoiding lethal events.

But your first point is not true. Biology does not survive. You live only for a few decades and then rapidly deteriorate and die.

[Taelr]

Looks like a fun action movie but the message is yet another variation on the Frankenstein theme. Human creates something that turns on its creator. A similar mess was caused with the I Robot movie, I'm sure Asimov would have been very upset with that.

[forever freedom]

Bruce Willis never tires of getting into the "diehard" style does he.

Looks like a nice movie, but as people said above it probably has the whole "natural is better than artificial" meme.

Is artificial better than natural?

When perfected to a a certain point, then yes of course. But of course arguing with a troll like you is senseless.

[GoodFellas]

Exactly when is it going to be out?

[n25philly]

Probably seems like it is written by a child because you are familiar with the topic. For the mass viewing public, it might have more appeal. Nice to see the meme getting out there more. Art/media changes attitudes, although in this movie it looks like the "natural is better/superior" meme wins out in the end (just the feel I get from the trailer).

It could also be because it's based on a comic book

[forever freedom]

Exactly when is it going to be out?

It's supposed to be out at October 16th according to IMDB.

[A941]

Watched the Trailer for Surrogates (with Bruce Willis) and it seems that soon the producers will be sued by James Cameron for making a movie with a very similar topic like the last one he did.

But what do you think about such a future were people stay at home and live their life through mechanical avatars?
Its a little bit frightening... no, to be honest it is VERY frightening, but dont we allready have a similar situation (Second life, WOW,...)?
Wouldnt such a life lose all its fun if everything is experienced through a replacement body?

[Cyberbrain]

If the connection between the body and the Surrogate is perfect and if the signals are just like that of the human body (you experience all senses perfectly) and if the capabilities and control are the same or better, reality would be no different. It would be like extending yourself. It will be a wireless part of you.

This goes under the same umbrella as cyborgs. You can change every part of your body except your brain and it's still you. Heck even if you augment your brain it will still be you. I see no problem with having a Surrogate as long as you take care of where your original brain is.

The whole problem is based on where you perceive things. Here's a thought experiment. Would this be any different:

You awaken from a neuro cryopreservation (your head was frozen) and discover you're in a young healthy biological body. But later you discover that the body is just like an avatar and due to complications your brain is stuck in a jar connected to wires in some computer. But to you everything you do and perceive feels perfect.

In the end it's all just bioelectrical signals.

Edited by Cyberbrain, 15 January 2010 - 09:20 PM.

[SiliconAnimation]

If the connection between the body and the Surrogate is perfect and if the signals are just like that of the human body (you experience all senses perfectly) and if the capabilities and control are the same or better, reality would be no different. It would be like extending yourself. It will be a wireless part of you.

This goes under the same umbrella as cyborgs. You can change every part of your body except your brain and it's still you. Heck even if you augment your brain it will still be you. I see no problem with having a Surrogate as long as you take care of where your original brain is.

The whole problem is based on where you perceive things. Here's a thought experiment. Would this be any different:

You awaken from a neuro cryopreservation (your head was frozen) and discover you're in a young healthy biological body. But later you discover that the body is just like an avatar and due to complications your brain is stuck in a jar connected to wires in some computer. But to you everything you do and perceive feels perfect.

In the end it's all just bioelectrical signals.

By your reasoning, a hypothetical army could nuke the entire planet, so long as they had extremely highly detailed photographs of people's brains so that they could be stored on a computer system in some space station with a World of Warcraft server running while the creators of the nuclear holocaust celebrate down below with Transhumanist armbands and a marching band playing the theme music from Hackers.

(For the record, I find the scenario absolutely horrific)

Edited by SiliconAnimation, 16 January 2010 - 07:37 AM.

[ben951]

By your reasoning, a hypothetical army could nuke the entire planet, so long as they had extremely highly detailed photographs of people's brains so that they could be stored on a computer system in some space station with a World of Warcraft server running while the creators of the nuclear holocaust celebrate down below with Transhumanist armbands and a marching band playing the theme music from Hackers.

(For the record, I find the scenario absolutely horrific)

Personally I don't see what the reasoning of Cyberbrain has to do with your scenario of holocaust.

Even in the surrogates, people can choose or not to use them and their original brain are intact.

If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.

To me a phone conversation is a real conversation even though the person can be on the other side of the planet.

[SiliconAnimation]

By your reasoning, a hypothetical army could nuke the entire planet, so long as they had extremely highly detailed photographs of people's brains so that they could be stored on a computer system in some space station with a World of Warcraft server running while the creators of the nuclear holocaust celebrate down below with Transhumanist armbands and a marching band playing the theme music from Hackers.

(For the record, I find the scenario absolutely horrific)

Personally I don't see what the reasoning of Cyberbrain has to do with your scenario of holocaust.

Even in the surrogates, people can choose or not to use them and their original brain are intact.

If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.

To me a phone conversation is a real conversation even though the person can be on the other side of the planet.

'Just' electrical signals you say? Would you care to elaborate on what just exactly 'just' electrical signals are? I have electrical signals in my computer system. Putting photos of an intensive MRI of my brain on it and linking the graphical images to VB.NET doesn't seem to be.. well, logical?

Besides, if we are all just groups of electrical signals firing to and fro, what do you suggest about an EMP transmitting in moorse code while my 'just electrical signals' are operating in some hypothetical future scenario. Do we tell the EMP entity to stop existing so that a constrained electrical signal inside of a wire can organize itself properly? Do we tell the EMP that it has rights to operate in my server because I didn't pay my electric bill?


'Just'/'simply' electrical signals...

To use a quote that I will probably get sick of quoting:

"Of all the interpretations of the world attempted hitherto, the mechanistic one seems today to stand victorious in the foreground. It evidently has a good conscience on it's side; and no science believes it can achieve progress and success except with the aid of mechanistic procedures. Everyone knows these procedures: one leaves "reason" and "purpose" out of account as far as possible, one shows that, given sufficient time, anything can evolve out of anything else and one does not conceal a malicious chuckle when "apparent intention" in the fate of a plant or an egg yolk is once again traced back to pressure and stress: in short, one pays a heartfelt homage to the principle of the greatest possible stupidity, if a playful expression may be allowed concerning such serious matters."

Edited by SiliconAnimation, 17 January 2010 - 03:01 AM.

[KalaBeth]

with respect SA, I don't think CB is saying our *personalities* are "just electrical signals" - rather that our sensory inputs are.
Thus, as far as our brains - or consciousness - is concerned, it doesn't matter whether the world we experience is a result of true sensory experience or simulated sensory experience. At a certain degree of precision, the two become indistinguishable. ie, the "Matrix" scenario.

Heck, for certain values of whats in "the real world" - it might even be preferable. Wouldn't make putting someone into such a state against their will ethical - but it hardly looks like CB is advocating that.

[A941]

I think the surrogates scenario is frightening, i mean in such a world many people would become abnormaly fat and never again leave the house.
I think we still have a similar situation with the internet, but still not that bad as the one decribed above.

[ben951]

'Just' electrical signals you say? Would you care to elaborate on what just exactly 'just' electrical signals are? I have electrical signals in my computer system. Putting photos of an intensive MRI of my brain on it and linking the graphical images to VB.NET doesn't seem to be.. well, logical?

Besides, if we are all just groups of electrical signals firing to and fro, what do you suggest about an EMP transmitting in moorse code while my 'just electrical signals' are operating in some hypothetical future scenario. Do we tell the EMP entity to stop existing so that a constrained electrical signal inside of a wire can organize itself properly? Do we tell the EMP that it has rights to operate in my server because I didn't pay my electric bill?


'Just'/'simply' electrical signals...

To use a quote that I will probably get sick of quoting:

"Of all the interpretations of the world attempted hitherto, the mechanistic one seems today to stand victorious in the foreground. It evidently has a good conscience on it's side; and no science believes it can achieve progress and success except with the aid of mechanistic procedures. Everyone knows these procedures: one leaves "reason" and "purpose" out of account as far as possible, one shows that, given sufficient time, anything can evolve out of anything else and one does not conceal a malicious chuckle when "apparent intention" in the fate of a plant or an egg yolk is once again traced back to pressure and stress: in short, one pays a heartfelt homage to the principle of the greatest possible stupidity, if a playful expression may be allowed concerning such serious matters."

Who said we were electrical signal ?

I was talking about the perceptions we have through our senses not who we are.
That's why I took the phone example.

I don't understand what is the purpose of quoting people and commenting things they haven't said, you did it with CB and now with me.

Beside this sentence come from Morpheus in the matrix I hoped you'd notice it.

"Morpheus: If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain "
http://www.imdb.com/...t0133093/quotes

Edited by ben951, 17 January 2010 - 11:38 AM.

[Luna]

I didn't get the impression that natural is better in the trailer but rather that something bad can happen due to hacking the electronic system. O_o

Oh and the image of the robot constructed is a bit repulsive..

[KalaBeth]

...a cautionary message that just because we can put ourselves into a new substrate that can withstand forces that would kill our biological bodies doesn't mean we have attained even practical immortality.

I didn't get the impression that natural is better in the trailer but rather that something bad can happen due to hacking the electronic system. O_o

Good point in both cases.... but thinking on in a bit, I'm not certain true practical immortality is possible, if only because we've always been remarkably good at killing each other. The human body already is amazingly durable ... but humans figured out ways of quickly crippling or killing the body - without tools - from quite possibly well before written history. Thus however good our technology is at extending/protecting life, I can't help but think it will always be a little bit better at ending it.

To the "natural vs artificial" - I think that's for most of us purely an aesthetic thing, based more on TV/Movie images of Borg and suchlike than anything else. As the technology to make "naturalistic" augmentations/enhancements/whatever progresses, I suspect the distinction will continue to slide into irreverence.

[Cyberbrain]

I think that even with surrogates and virtual avatars that will have sensory input just like or even better than our current bodies, people will still probably opt to use a body with their original brain in it. People will use surrogates and virtual avatars (some more than others), and I see no problem in using these artificial bodies (they have a lot of benefits) but realistically most will continue to live in a body with their real brain (unless they under go mind uploading and exist in cyberspace or something similar).

The world of Ghost in the Shell is a perfect view of the future. People use surrogates and log on to matrix like VR's but most still live in a body with their real brain. Though there will be some that might see certain benefits of taking their brain and keeping it a secure box wrapped in a computer system. I personally would like to have a bio/nano enhanced cyborg body and occasionally use a surrogate for various purposes.