121 replies to this topic

[bacopa]

Other than the fact that evolution is a scientific fact and that we share 98% of our DNA with chimps can anyone here give some concrete examples and possibly evidence of why there probably is not God? I can't think right now as it is late, but if anyone wants to give some good reasons why that would be great.

[brokenportal]

There could be a god, and evolution isnt as fool proof as it may seem. Although I tend to side with you, we have to be careful so as to not become biased and blind sides and as religious when it comes to evolution as we wish the religious when it comes to the super natural are.

I look at it the way I phrase it in the requisite 8, its the second one in this list, which is:

To know if there is a god, gods, no god, or something else.

[Luna]

It doesn't matter if there is a god or there isn't.. progressing is what matters

[bacopa]

It doesn't matter if there is a god or there isn't.. progressing is what matters

Of course you're right, and we want to attract religious people to the Life extension mission, but I just wanted some ammunition to use when talking to my religious friends.

[Luna]

It doesn't matter if there is a god or there isn't.. progressing is what matters

Of course you're right, and we want to attract religious people to the Life extension mission, but I just wanted some ammunition to use when talking to my religious friends.

The best approach is to understand them and befriend with them rather than argue and betray their friendships.

[Cyberbrain]

Now those are some pretty smart sayings winterbreeze

[modelcadet]

God, like consciousness, is not falsifiable.

[bacopa]

It doesn't matter if there is a god or there isn't.. progressing is what matters

Of course you're right, and we want to attract religious people to the Life extension mission, but I just wanted some ammunition to use when talking to my religious friends.

The best approach is to understand them and befriend with them rather than argue and betray their friendships.

no I'm friends with plenty of religious people. I just wanted a good argument so I know what I'm talking about if a discussion should come up.

[Taelr]

You could try this -

http://www.sciforums...read.php?t=3182

The general idea is to show that the claims made for religious fantasy entities are in conflict and hence render the object of the claims impossible.

Otherwise it is generally considered impossible to prove a negative with this class of subject. I.e. one is not able to search every corner of the universe to show that there isn't a god of some type.

It is generally not a good idea to attempt to prove gods do not exist. The real issue is to show that the claims made by theists have no basis, the onus is always on the claimant to prove their claims and not the reverse.

[jackinbox]

The burden of proof isn't on you.

[bacopa]

You could try this -

http://www.sciforums...read.php?t=3182

The general idea is to show that the claims made for religious fantasy entities are in conflict and hence render the object of the claims impossible.

Otherwise it is generally considered impossible to prove a negative with this class of subject. I.e. one is not able to search every corner of the universe to show that there isn't a god of some type.

It is generally not a good idea to attempt to prove gods do not exist. The real issue is to show that the claims made by theists have no basis, the onus is always on the claimant to prove their claims and not the reverse.

That's a great little argument on free will and I hadn't thought of that one. Thanks

[modelcadet]

You could try this -

http://www.sciforums...read.php?t=3182

The general idea is to show that the claims made for religious fantasy entities are in conflict and hence render the object of the claims impossible.

Otherwise it is generally considered impossible to prove a negative with this class of subject. I.e. one is not able to search every corner of the universe to show that there isn't a god of some type.

It is generally not a good idea to attempt to prove gods do not exist. The real issue is to show that the claims made by theists have no basis, the onus is always on the claimant to prove their claims and not the reverse.

That's a great little argument on free will and I hadn't thought of that one. Thanks

To play Devil's advocate, so to speak:

The best rebuttal of this argument is to examine the teachings of Jesus in a historical context. While there are many examples of the evolution of Christianity, the introduction of dualism the doctrine allows this paradox. Evidence abounds, but the point that comes most readily to miind is that nephesh != psyché. If God is the Universe, God can certainly be omnipotent and omniscient. The incompletely-parameterized identities and desires of Man separate us from God, but also allow the uncertainty necessary for Man to have free-will. For this point in a different frame, see my recent blog post: http://temetics.org/...ent/origin-teme

Defending the existence of God is much easier when incorporating India's influence:

I am inclined to believe Holger Kersten, Nicolai Notovich, Prof. Fida Hassnain, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and many others who argue that Jesus lived in India during his youth and also after he escaped death in Jerusalem. However, the connection of Jesus with India is not as important to me as is the fact that I find Jesus talking of the same love and compassion that Gautam Buddha talked about. I find it quite ridiculous to believe that all human beings are born sinners and are saved from their sins by Jesus going on the cross as atonement for their sins. I find no justification for this belief even in the life and sayings of Jesus. Philosophically speaking, this is in direct contrast to the message of universal love that Jesus espoused.

For modern-day Christianity, God is the creator, but He is not His creation. This dualism of the creator and the creation can be sourced to Old Testament. There is no justification for this dualism in the life and sayings of Jesus. In fact, the message of love spread by Jesus seems to be more consistent with a monistic conception where one sees no duality between the creator and the creation. When one sees no dualism between God and the world, the two commandments of "Love God" and "Love Thy Neighbour" become one. The love of Jesus for God found manifestation through his love for the poor and suffering, and vice versa. As I bow to Jesus, I devote myself to this love for God and the world, without accepting any boundaries between the two.

Instead of moulding atheists, recontextualize their biases into more productive schema, creating Christian Buddhas. While neither position is as sound as strict agnosticism, the latter framework is more continuous with your audience's current schema.

[platypus]

God, like consciousness, is not falsifiable.

Your own consciousness self-evidently and inescapably exists. Same is not true related to gods.

[Taelr]

model,

The incompletely-parameterized identities and desires of Man separate us from God, but also allow the uncertainty necessary for Man to have free-will.

There can be no uncertainty if omnisience exists. Free will is entirely impossible if the choice is known beforehand. The existence of omniscience and the free will of man are mutually exclusive. They cannot both coexist.

[brokenportal]

It doesn't matter if there is a god or there isn't.. progressing is what matters

Of course you're right, and we want to attract religious people to the Life extension mission, but I just wanted some ammunition to use when talking to my religious friends.

The best approach is to understand them and befriend with them rather than argue and betray their friendships.

no I'm friends with plenty of religious people. I just wanted a good argument so I know what I'm talking about if a discussion should come up.

Instead of being goaded into arguements where they end up losing sight of the point, nowdays I try to stick to just the main point and just say, "You dont know, you just dont know, you could be right, others could be right, but we just dont know. I hope theres a god, but Im not going to bank on it. Lets get ourselves some life extension so we can have more time to go and see if we can find answers to important questions like that."

Or like the succinct bumper sticker says, "Agnostic, I dont know and you dont either. "

That reminds me of another one that I thought was funny, and true, "Agnostic, an atheist who has lost their faith."

[bacopa]

It doesn't matter if there is a god or there isn't.. progressing is what matters

Of course you're right, and we want to attract religious people to the Life extension mission, but I just wanted some ammunition to use when talking to my religious friends.

The best approach is to understand them and befriend with them rather than argue and betray their friendships.

no I'm friends with plenty of religious people. I just wanted a good argument so I know what I'm talking about if a discussion should come up.

Instead of being goaded into arguements where they end up losing sight of the point, nowdays I try to stick to just the main point and just say, "You dont know, you just dont know, you could be right, others could be right, but we just dont know. I hope theres a god, but Im not going to bank on it. Lets get ourselves some life extension so we can have more time to go and see if we can find answers to important questions like that."

Or like the succinct bumper sticker says, "Agnostic, I dont know and you dont either. "

That reminds me of another one that I thought was funny, and true, "Agnostic, an atheist who has lost their faith."

That's what I do already with religious people. But I was just interested in case I needed to.

[Cyberbrain]

Other than the fact that evolution is a scientific fact and that we share 98% of our DNA with chimps can anyone here give some concrete examples and possibly evidence of why there probably is not God? I can't think right now as it is late, but if anyone wants to give some good reasons why that would be great.

I think you'll find what you're looking for and more in this book: The Counter-Creationism Handbook

It address thousands of different problems that theists and creationists have posed. From philosophical to historical to scientific, it has everything.

[bacopa]

Other than the fact that evolution is a scientific fact and that we share 98% of our DNA with chimps can anyone here give some concrete examples and possibly evidence of why there probably is not God? I can't think right now as it is late, but if anyone wants to give some good reasons why that would be great.

I think you'll find what you're looking for and more in this book: The Counter-Creationism Handbook

It address thousands of different problems that theists and creationists have posed. From philosophical to historical to scientific, it has everything.

Ok that's the next book I will buy. How would you rate it on a scale of 1 to 10?

[Cyberbrain]

I would say a 9, maybe 9.5. It's not that expansive and it covers a lot, especially when it comes to creationism.

[Eugene]

I would say a 9, maybe 9.5. It's not that expansive and it covers a lot, especially when it comes to creationism.

Well it is impossible to know for now if such a being exits. What is known tho is that there is not a shred of good evidence for god and believing something such extraordinary without evidence is illogical.

Further we can claim that even if there is something like a god - it is almost irrelevant to our lives because our memories and emotions dies with the brain. And there is no evidence for karma or any reward punishment. So whatever god may exist is first of all not worth the name god and secondly completely irrelevant.

From Greek philosopher Epicurius:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

[Eugene]

Also religious people often say something like "God is too complex for our mind to understand and thus it seems like chaos to us while it is planed by him". You could reply "well then you don't know either. Because for this universe to be evidence for God we would have to know what God's universe would look like and since you claim yourself we cannot understand God - you cannot know."

For example you could not claim smoke coming out of a building as evidence for fire until you prove that fire causes smoke. Without that link between cause and effect - logically everything would justify everything.

Another mistake religious people make is claim that universe had to be cause and could not exist forever which is a mistake. Infinity is possible and does exist - it is just hard to wrap our minds around.

Edited by Eugene, 11 June 2009 - 04:34 AM.

[fatboy]

Because it just doesn't make sense.

[ben951]

It seems to me that is easier to point out obvious flaws in religions then try to prove that god does not exist.

Personally I don't believe in any specific religion but i suspect god exist at least in some way.

God might exist in a total different way then what most religions proposes. they're is a lot of religions and a lot of different views possible, since we don't have proof, to me they're not less valid hypothesis then the one "proposed" by the 3 big religions of nowadays.

If god is the phenomena that created us, than he or it exist, we and the universe are the proof of it, does the phenomena has to be conscious to be called god, maybe I'm not sure, and since we're not even sure what consciousness really is in human or animals it might be an even more difficult question for God.

Does it really have to be omnipotent and omniscient to be called god ? how about if he's conscious and created the universe but he's not omnipotent, some suggest that the universe is a simulation run in some kind of computer by a far advance civilization, if we take that hypothesis then when we create a simulation we don't control what's happening inside, we might modify some parameters or specific event but not everything in it.

Also why religions always imply that we will live forever after we die (probably promising eternal life help converting people)? to me it's possible that God exist and that death is final and there's nothing after.

Why human would live forever after death and not monkey for instance? I think Buddhism doesn't make the difference since they believe you can be reincarnated in any living thing.

Some propose that we will basically become god by merging with AI that will eventually saturated all matter in the universe and become omnipotent, master time travel and recreated a new cycle from the beginning again.

In other words human kind will create and become god but in fact he already exist since that entity will become omnipotent and master time travel.
But then the question is who started this phenomena in the first place, gods might have their own gods too.( now my head is starting to hurt so i stop here :D).

I think religions are easier to disprove with science fact, like for instance genesis oppose evolution then conceptions of God that may vary widely.

Edited by ben951, 14 June 2009 - 02:41 PM.

[Boondock]

You won't be able to "prove" God doesn't exist, but the burden of proof doesn't lie on you. You have to look at the 'God hypothesis' like any other scientific question, and base it on evidence. Is there any firm evidence for God existing? Not so far. And if there isn't any evidence, then why should you believe in it? Do you believe in unicorns or genies or werewolves?

Even if you think there's a possibility of there being a God, there's no reliable way to choose one over another. Why is the Islamic god more valid than the Hindu deities?

It's not your job to prove anything; it's their job to prove something to you.

[fatboy]

I never had any problems with Spinoza's God when I was younger and gave a shit about such things.

[synaesthetic]

I feel like its easier to find out where their idea of god comes from... most Gods come from some holy book or myth, show how the story itself is flawed and corrupted and also explain the social and historical perspectives, then you don't have to argue over as many abstract concepts.

[Esoparagon]

Other than the fact that evolution is a scientific fact and that we share 98% of our DNA with chimps can anyone here give some concrete examples and possibly evidence of why there probably is not God? I can't think right now as it is late, but if anyone wants to give some good reasons why that would be great.

A 7 year old can disprove God. It's not hard. It's already been done a million times in the past so don't bother. I don't bother anymore. The problem is, we are playing CHESS and they are playing CHECKERS. You understand? You can't convince someone who has faith because faith is blind belief despite all else. It's a very dangerous and intellectually disgusting phenomenon.

Here's one from 270BC. Like I said, it's not hard.

Epicurius (341-270 BC)

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

[TheFountain]

I am guilty of playing mind games with religious people. I tend to make up hypotheticals.

For example when I say 'the existence of god is predicated on compassion, and yet this god of yours allows people like Hitler And George Bush to exist' the usual response is the typical 'that is just 'his' way of testing our faith in him' to which I reply with 'so god is a prankster who is interested in manipulation and mind games? That doesn't sound all that compassionate to me.' to which they generally begin to stare at me like a dog who was shown a neat trick.

Then I enter into statements like 'what if I am god playing with you right now, testing your faith in me by making a fool of myself?' to which I generally get some pretty confused reactions by some very confused souls. It's fun sometimes.

As for my own beliefs. I think we are all part of a vast intelligence that is made up of every living being in the universe. When two conscious beings converse about anything on the upper-most conscious level, that is this universal intelligence becoming aware of itself, or self reflecting as it were. The more united and communicative all beings become, the more aware the universe is of itself.

At least in this perspective you are part of the great vastness of things, rather than residing outside of it like a deer caught in headlights waiting to be disposed of wondering why you existed in the first place if only to be a passive observer of someone elses reality. And I think it is far more truthful than the 'god is out there' story.

Edited by TheFountain, 17 June 2009 - 05:21 PM.

[Loot Perish]

[erzebet]

i don't think there is a god because my senses or any other scientific device i have used did not sense him/her- that is enough for me. the second reason for which i refuse religion is that i have a brain to use- and i use it to think, to know what's good and bad for me and for others, to appreciate beauty- while religions deny human rights and animal rights as a whole.

so when someone on the street tries to give me a bible or to convert me, if they insist, i just tell them what i wrote and it was ok