46 replies to this topic

[supernoober]

THIS IS THE BEST THREAD EVER.

I HAVE NEVER DONE mdma BEFORE BUT I HAVE HAD MANY OPPORTUNITIES. I AM THINKING ABOUT TRYING IT ONCE BUT I WANT TO

HAVE THE BEST EXPERIENCE POSSIBLE WITH THE LEAST NEGATIVE EFFECTS. WHENEVER MY FRIENDS DO IT THEY NEVER FEEL

DEPRESSED OR CRACKED OUT AFTERWARDS, JUST TIRED. IS THIS AN INDICATION THAT THEY ARE TAKING CLEAN PRINT/MOLLIES?

sorry for CAPS

[russianBEAR]

A couple bad studies doesn't mean anything. MDMA is pretty much the lynchpin of your brain and using it can have extreme effects. It has the most receptors in your brain and this erroneously makes internet twits think that makes it safe. The problen is that it has very very low natural levels and they they come into play it has a profound effect. Any ethylamines will have a profound effect and will dramatically increase dopamine transpoint. When this happens you get a huge wave of euphoria but it's basically your braincells being worked to death til they literally explode in pleasure. At high enough doses serotonergic damage begins and that has serious issues. Tha said I still take adderall at low doses, but you are raking your brain in your own hands if you take mdma.



AT low doses deprenyl might help with neurotoxicity, but at MAO-B inhibition level it will cause problems.

So you're taking one amphetamine then talkin smack about a different, slightly modified methamphetamine. Way to go buddy.

[bgwithadd]

So you're taking one amphetamine then talkin smack about a different, slightly modified methamphetamine. Way to go buddy.

Well with a name like that I guess english is your second language so it is probably harder to tell that I put that in there as a qualification; that is, I recognize there are problems with it but still take it but using due caution and at lower doses than I would if I were abusing it or even aiming for the optimal therapeutic level. It it were a matter of recreational use, I would switch to something else if I absolutely had to find euphoria somehow, such as cocaine. Even oxycontin for that matter, so long as you don't inject it. Much safer for your brain, though there's probably virtually no such thing as psych drugs that have no negative consequences for your brain when used long term or at high doses - including and perhaps especially therapeutic ones.

[Doc Eight or DE]

What a bunch of bs about MDMA being safe,


Ecstasy can harm the brains of first-time users
November 27th, 2006 Researchers have discovered that even a small amount of MDMA, better known as ecstasy, can be harmful to the brain, according to the first study to look at the neurotoxic effects of low doses of the recreational drug in new ecstasy users. The findings were presented today at the annual meeting of the Radiological Society of North America.


“We found a decrease in blood circulation in some areas of the brain in young adults who just started to use ecstasy,” said Maartje de Win, M.D., radiology resident at the Academic Medical Center at the University of Amsterdam in the Netherlands. “In addition, we found a relative decrease in verbal memory performance in ecstasy users compared to non-users.”

Ecstasy is an illegal drug that acts as a stimulant and psychedelic. A 2004 survey by the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) found that 450,000 people in the United States age 12 and over had used ecstasy in the past 30 days. In 2005, NIDA estimated that 5.4 percent of all American 12th graders had taken the drug at least once.

Ecstasy targets neurons in the brain that use the chemical serotonin to communicate. Serotonin plays an important role in regulating a number of mental processes including mood and memory.

Research has shown that long-term or heavy ecstasy use can damage these neurons and cause depression, anxiety, confusion, difficulty sleeping and decrease in memory. However, no previous studies have looked at the effects of low doses of the drug on first-time users.

Dr. de Win and colleagues examined 188 volunteers with no history of ecstasy use but at high-risk for first-time ecstasy use in the near future. The examinations included neuroimaging techniques to measure the integrity of cells and blood flow in different areas of the brain and various psychological tests. After 18 months, 59 first-time ecstasy users who had taken six tablets on average and 56 non-users were re-examined with the same techniques and tests.

The study found that low doses of ecstasy did not severely damage the serotonergic neurons or affect mood. However, there were indications of subtle changes in cell architecture and decreased blood flow in some brain regions, suggesting prolonged effects from the drug, including some cell damage. In addition, the results showed a decrease in verbal memory performance among low-dose ecstasy users compared to non-users.

“We do not know if these effects are transient or permanent,” Dr. de Win said. “Therefore, we cannot conclude that ecstasy, even in small doses, is safe for the brain, and people should be informed of this risk.”

This research is part of the Netherlands XTC Toxicity (NeXT) study, which also looks at high-dose ecstasy users and aims to provide information on long-term effects of ecstasy use in the general population.

Source: http://www.physorg.c...tmlRadiological Society of North America


I'd advise pot if you want a psychoactive substance that with the right Nootropics can feel better then MDMA and be allot safer.

[bgwithadd]

What a bunch of bs about MDMA being safe,

I love the logic that goes "Well it turned out to be wrong x causes brain lesions in humans. It only does that in rats! Therefore it's perfectly safe."


The true irony is that kilgore actually used the reverse logic in his defense of tyrosine being safe at levels of 12 grams a day and never causing anxiety or increased blood pressure or heartrate.

And was wrong then, too, because the opposite of irrelevance is also irrelevant.

[russianBEAR]

Well with a name like that I guess english is your second language so it is probably harder to tell that I put that in there as a qualification; that is, I recognize there are problems with it but still take it but using due caution and at lower doses than I would if I were abusing it or even aiming for the optimal therapeutic level. It it were a matter of recreational use, I would switch to something else if I absolutely had to find euphoria somehow, such as cocaine. Even oxycontin for that matter, so long as you don't inject it. Much safer for your brain, though there's probably virtually no such thing as psych drugs that have no negative consequences for your brain when used long term or at high doses - including and perhaps especially therapeutic ones.

Hey, as long as you can convince yourself that it's not a problem that you're dependent on a low dose of a stimulant then more power to ya Don't have to convince me

[Doc Eight or DE]

And something else to consider,

Ecstacy May Cause Parkinson’s Disease: Baboons and squirrel monkeys both showed 60% to 80% damage to striatal dopaminergic neurons due to three doses of MDMA in a single night, a dosage similar to humans at rave parties. 90% damage in humans necessary for symptoms to be present, but this may only occur in later life. Johns Hopkins, Science 9/27/02.

[kilgoretrout]

And something else to consider,

Ecstacy May Cause Parkinson’s Disease: Baboons and squirrel monkeys both showed 60% to 80% damage to striatal dopaminergic neurons due to three doses of MDMA in a single night, a dosage similar to humans at rave parties. 90% damage in humans necessary for symptoms to be present, but this may only occur in later life. Johns Hopkins, Science 9/27/02.

Major MDMA studies at Johns Hopkins were totally discredited. Didi you not read my posts above? The anti-drug ideologue "scientists" on the DEA gravy train there "accidentally" used huge injections of Methamphetamine, not MDMA. They have since retracted been retracted by the researchers.

Not saying MDMA is harmless, but this was quite a shameful episode and a pathetic error at a major university. Inexcusable. See above for dozens of scathing responses.

QUOTE:
In September 2002, a Johns Hopkins research team (led by George Ricaurte) published new research results in a controversial paper in Science titled Severe Dopaminergic Neurotoxicity in Primates After a Common Recreational Dose Regimen of MDMA. They reported that MDMA, when injected into non-human primates (monkeys) in doses similar to those used by some recreational ecstasy users, caused "severe" damage to the dopamine (DA) system of the brain. But in a major blow to their credibility, the Johns Hopkins researchers have now issued a full retraction of the article stating that all but one of the monkeys were accidentally injected with methamphetamine, not MDMA.

The original article stirred controversy for several reasons. The alarming results, which contradicted previous research and data about actual human use, suggested that even a single evening of MDMA use could lead to permanent and devastating problems. Despite the unexpected results, the Science article was worded to have a political effect and was used to help push through legislation aimed at punishing owners of venues where drugs such as ecstasy are used. The research was strongly supported by Alan Leshner, the former head of the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA). Leshner was head of NIDA when the Johns Hopkins research proposal was approved, and was then appointed chief executive officer of the organization that publishes Science prior to the research being accepted for publication.

As critics have questioned the results over the past year, the authors have vigorously defended their unprecedented findings. But in early September 2003, Ricaurte and his research team submitted a full retraction of the article to Science, stating that the monkeys had not been injected with MDMA at all. Rather, they had been injected with methamphetamine, a well-known dopamine system toxin taken at doses substantially lower than those of MDMA. The results, after injecting the monkeys with what turned out to be very high doses of methamphetamine, were dramatic but not unexpected given the actual substance used: two of the primates died from the injection, others were close to death, and there was serious damage to their dopamine systems.

This retraction highlights some troubling questions about the politics of science and its effect on the data that make it into peer reviewed literature.

Edited by kilgoretrout, 07 July 2009 - 02:31 AM.

[russianBEAR]

I think it's very hypochondric to be worried about all that, unless you're a daily/weekly user. As far as no negative effects - well the saying is: if you like to ride downhill in the winter, you gotta like carrying your sled back up just as much...

Pretty sure nothin is gonna happen to yall unless you get too carried away, but that's with everything. Hell, too much water can kill you

[moo]

http://pdsp.med.unc.edu/pdsp.php

For test ligand look at "MDMA".
The lower the Ki # the higher the binding affinity.
MDMA shows only negligible affinity for serotonin transporter, dopamine transporter, and norepinephrine transporter - no affinity for any specific sertonergic, catchelominergic, or adrenergic receptors.
So until we know the pharmacology of MDMA we can't find out whether or not it's toxic. It follows that we can't determine what supplements can help someone combat toxicity (if there is any with minimal usage - i.e. once or twice a year). Your best protection against harm in my opinion is only use it if you must, as little as you must, and absolutely make sure to test it . "Ecstacy" deaths have often been the result of "PMA" or other toxic chemicals sold as MDMA. Good luck and stay hydrated (but dont drink too much water- that is another cause of "ecstacy" deaths).

[Doc Eight or DE]

MDMA causes decreased 5HT2 sites, and axon trimming (probable dopamine damage, too)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....p;dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm....p;dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm....p;dopt=Abstract

Something else to look into.....

[bobman]

What a bunch of bs about MDMA being safe,


Ecstasy can harm the brains of first-time users
November 27th, 2006 Researchers have discovered that even a small amount of MDMA, better known as ecstasy, can be harmful to the brain, according to the first study to look at the neurotoxic effects of low doses of the recreational drug in new ecstasy users. The findings were presented today at the annual meeting of the Radiological Society of North America.


“We found a decrease in blood circulation in some areas of the brain in young adults who just started to use ecstasy,” said Maartje de Win, M.D., radiology resident at the Academic Medical Center at the University of Amsterdam in the Netherlands. “In addition, we found a relative decrease in verbal memory performance in ecstasy users compared to non-users.”

Ecstasy is an illegal drug that acts as a stimulant and psychedelic. A 2004 survey by the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) found that 450,000 people in the United States age 12 and over had used ecstasy in the past 30 days. In 2005, NIDA estimated that 5.4 percent of all American 12th graders had taken the drug at least once.

Ecstasy targets neurons in the brain that use the chemical serotonin to communicate. Serotonin plays an important role in regulating a number of mental processes including mood and memory.

Research has shown that long-term or heavy ecstasy use can damage these neurons and cause depression, anxiety, confusion, difficulty sleeping and decrease in memory. However, no previous studies have looked at the effects of low doses of the drug on first-time users.

Dr. de Win and colleagues examined 188 volunteers with no history of ecstasy use but at high-risk for first-time ecstasy use in the near future. The examinations included neuroimaging techniques to measure the integrity of cells and blood flow in different areas of the brain and various psychological tests. After 18 months, 59 first-time ecstasy users who had taken six tablets on average and 56 non-users were re-examined with the same techniques and tests.

The study found that low doses of ecstasy did not severely damage the serotonergic neurons or affect mood. However, there were indications of subtle changes in cell architecture and decreased blood flow in some brain regions, suggesting prolonged effects from the drug, including some cell damage. In addition, the results showed a decrease in verbal memory performance among low-dose ecstasy users compared to non-users.

“We do not know if these effects are transient or permanent,” Dr. de Win said. “Therefore, we cannot conclude that ecstasy, even in small doses, is safe for the brain, and people should be informed of this risk.”

This research is part of the Netherlands XTC Toxicity (NeXT) study, which also looks at high-dose ecstasy users and aims to provide information on long-term effects of ecstasy use in the general population.

Source: http://www.physorg.c...tmlRadiological Society of North America


I'd advise pot if you want a psychoactive substance that with the right Nootropics can feel better then MDMA and be allot safer.

This is a wicked old bump, but I just wanted to jump on this, because I am very surprised no one else has. This whole article is about a RADIOLOGIST RESIDENT's assessment of MDMA's effects on the brain. What the heck does this guy know haha. He hasn't even finished medical school! This is just a sensationalist article, trying to drum up their daily quotient of fear. People know so little about the brain that it takes a specialist doing heavy duty research, including histology, behavioral studies, cognitive assays, control-tested fmri studies, etc to figure out anything of value. Oh, but this radiologist's ASSISTANT saw decreased blood flow to some parts of the brain during MDMA use? Well, I'm sure you'll see the same effect with every vasoconstrictor on the market. So what? Even if that isn't the reason, I'm sure that observing a change in blood flow is not nearly enough to say that it is damaging. It may not decrease it enough to starve that portion (that it recedes from), or it may not be for a long enough time. Every time a person is occupied with a problem, he will have more blood flow to one section, and less to another. Oh, and "Dr. De Win & colleagues". Like he doesn't spend every weekend getting wasted with his buddies at med school. How in the world was this even published, yikes

[bobman]

MDMA causes decreased 5HT2 sites, and axon trimming (probable dopamine damage, too)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....p;dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm....p;dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm....p;dopt=Abstract

Something else to look into.....

Btw this is scary, because it indicates that SSRI's produce damage of similar morphology as MDMA. Mean I am so fucked. Like 4 years of antidepressants, and almost 1.5 years of lamictal. Good thing I've been off all that crap for 1 year 4 months now. Phew, don't need any more damage.

Edited by bobmann, 03 July 2010 - 06:37 AM.

[Ark]

MDA - MDMA is good but it's the kind of thing you don't want to binge on and don't want to often most of the thread indicates that brain damage is evidant and it seems to make sense.' no offense to anyone on the other side. But it seems people are self proving, to feed the ego- besides no one wants to think they've fried they're brain stupid.



Peak experiences are awsome, but know your limits.

Edited by Ark, 03 July 2010 - 10:13 AM.

[medievil]

I dont know what to make of the last study, if that study is correct then measering serotonine depletion is a bad way of detecting neurotoxiticy. Altough i dont have a indept knowledge of MDMA neurotoxiticy and what kind of damage it exactly causes.

[chrono]

Anyone interested in the mechanisms of MDMA neurotoxicity should take a look at this thread: serotonin receptor regeneration nootropics? Lots of studies using neuroimaging (in humans) and larger populations (of humans), with better control of confounding factors. Not quite definitive yet, but much farther along than anything posted in this thread.

Edited by chrono, 26 August 2010 - 03:53 PM.